The Ergogenics of Fatty Acids

[dinoiii]

Introduction
Before answering the questions Brent has placed before us, I would like to digress to make certain the reader is on the same page. This allows obviation the reader may have through coming to understand the basic vocabulary of the fatty acids, etc... which is NOT necessarily a simple science.

Much begins with nomenclature ... as the science I speak of in my log on the HyperMass stack to medical and chemical vocabularies - fatty acid speak hinges on all of them. When we discuss "essential" fatty acids, this means that the fatty acids are NOT made by your bodies rendering the need to get them from some outside source - most notably food (not necessarily an easy task these days considering innumerous modifications to the term "natural") but also supplements (which too has its own slew of issues, all of which we can touch on here to aid answering the questions placed before us).

The two chief essential fatty acids are known as alpha-linolenic acid (LNA, for short) and linoleic acid (LA, knocking out the "N" for obvious reasons). You are likely more familiar with LNA being referenced as Omega-3's (W-3's) and LA being secured as Omega-6's (W-9's), but the story is a bit more complex, just keep that in mind. For now, however, making the terms synonymous in reference is ok for what I want to do with this discussion = any more would be beyond the scope (hehe, although Brent did kind of leave this one wide open).

OMEGA-3 CASCADE
LNA --> Stearidonic Acid (SDA) --> Eicosatetraenoic Acid --> Eicosapentanoic Acid (EPA) --> Clupanodonic Acid ↔ Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)
* Please Note that each arrow has either an enzyme known as an elongase of desaturase to aid its forward progression to various end-products, but knowledge of them is WELL beyond the scope of this discussion!
A couple key points in the LNA cascade are that EPA will give rise ultimately to series-3 prostaglandins offering rationale for proposed Mechanisms of Action, and DHA converts back to EPA at about 10-15% of its total product...yet also in and of itself has been rendered to have some beneficial indigenous effects of its own.

OMEGA-6 CASCADE
LA --> Gamma-linolenic Acid (GLA) --> Dihomogamma-linolenic Acid (DGLA) --> Arachidonic Acid (AA) --> Adrenic Acid --> Docosapentaenoic Acid (DPA)
* Please Note that each arrow has either an enzyme known as an elongase of desaturase to aid its forward progression to various end-products, but knowledge of them is again - WELL beyond the scope of this discussion!
A couple key points in the LA cascade are that DGLA will ultimately give rise to the series-1 prostaglandins; AA will ultimately give rise to the series-2 prostaglandins among other things like leukotrienes, which is what all the anti-AA people have as their arsenal as Series-2 prostaglandins + Leukotrienes are noted to produce some potentially deleterious consequence, however ... there could certainly be some respectable benefit to their use as well in the body composition domain...we have to simply keep some things in mind. Now, that we are all on the same nomenclature page, I would like to fast-forward in to progressive talks that may aid the discussion of Brent's questions.

 

[dinoiii]

The Questions

Q: Which fatty acids are the most effective for fat loss?
dinoiii's A:

The POLYUNSATURATES
When starting discussion, it is not too infrequent you hear of these types in a "quality" diet design. There are however ... potential detriments as well and this is NOT a case of simply a "more is better" mentality. While I could write virtual books on information supporting all of the key health attributes of these fatty acids, I am going to do something many don't seem to do and that is first describe rationale of why inclusion of MY SUGGESTED TALLIES is superior in body composition focus, but also keeping in mind that too much of a good thing is a very real phenomenon. That being said, all of Brent's questions will interconnect by the end of the discussion.

Of course, the discussion will tap into both metabolic processing and hormonal influence. Various hormones play a role in regulating energy balance ... proper nutrient ratios as well as timing can act in concert with your own system to get you to an end product you can look at in the mirror with awe ... hehe, and others will too.

The burning of fat is increased by a boat load of different activities: starvation (but this would be bad over time increasing cortisol's output and creating a catabolic disadvantage), aerobic exercise (which too can throw the cortisol ratio out of whack if you're not careful ... interestingly enough, 9 out of 10 despite their best intentions screw this up BIG TIME), and low levels of insulin (which fortunately is easy enough and why many people find benefits on a low-carbohydrate diet...you may have heard my spiel before that ketogenic diets do NOT find success based on "ketotic" states, but rather insulin control!!! Recall that insulin contributes to the storage of extra "energy" - read: fat, stop it by keeping it in check ... stop fat storage, hehe, this is certainly watered down and simplistic, but it is the truth with some factors to intermingle). That said, we know that our pancreas and the hormones insulin and glucagon will play a significant role, but thyroid hormone also needs to be watched AT THE SAME TIME (nothing suggested in vacuum here) to better off your chances of current fat store metabolism...lack of active forms of thyroid hormone in bodily tissues will reduce the efficiency of the oxidation of fat, resulting in the fat's being stored and inevitably leading to a positive fat balance ... and more than likely ... weight gain, contrary to popular belief...it ain't muscle ladies and gents either. Step far away from the "expert" internet gurus advice that says "just eat!" Leptin too will play more of a role in regulation of appetite, but if thyroid levels are out of whack ... leptin is virtually worthless. Anyway ... now that the virtual primer is over, let's move on to each of the fats in turn, shall we?

[1] Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA)
For those familiar with my writing, you know that I have mentioned that I absolutely LOVE this fatty acid in multiple forum areas scattered about the world wide web, despite this being apparent minority opinion these days.

Despite the fact that this is too an Omega-6 Fatty Acid, due to many chemical properties I will also make note of, it is by far not to be blanketed into that category simply through chemical naming NOR for simplicity’s sake. It is interesting that while it is chemically related to linoleic acid, CLA appears to have opposite effects in certain important areas. For instance, linoleic acid stimulates fat formation (lipogenesis) in adipose tissue, while CLA inhibits fat formation; linoleic acid tends to promote tumor growth, while CLA is an excellent inhibitor of tumor growth; linoleic acid makes cholesterol more susceptible to oxidation, while CLA makes cholesterol more stable.

One of the greatest problems with the Western diet during the last fifty years has been excessive consumption of linoleic acid, due to the introduction of margarine, seed oils such as corn oil and safflower oil, and the modern artificial feeding methods that have raised the linoleic acid content of meat. At the same time, the consumption of beneficial fatty acids such as omega-3 fats (fish, flax, perilla) and CLA has gone down, though I will explain in a second why I think FLAX IS CRAP in the body composition realm and should be replaced by FISH, et al in many people's diet regimes. Because of the enormous impact that fatty acids have on our physiology, an excess of linoleic acid combined with a deficiency of CLA could have far-reaching effects on health and longevity.

Why then has CLA gone the way of the dinosaurs and all but become an extinct suggestion in body composition debates ... the whores that make up the industry is the simple, short and sweet answer...hmmmm...all ye nay-sayers potentially reading this, don't believe me? Ahh, continue to read on and focus on the research studies that follow inclusive of the ones that allow us to discuss efficacious dosing parameters which I will get to in a minute and then see what the industry has done and then attempt to dissuade people's use again.

[2] The Omega-3's: LNA + EPA + DHA

Alpha-linolenic Acid (LNA) is improperly equated with the term linolenic acid by people that like to quote themselves as “experts" [hehe, if I sound bitter I am - the dubbings of someone as an “expert" and/or “guru" are: archaic, often misnomers, and all-too-often - “self-professed!" You will NEVER hear me reference this term...well, in any good way...that is]. Anyway, this is the stuff you hear about in the Flax, hemp, canola, soybean, and walnut oils amongst others. Flax being the richest source, but you will NEVER here me recommending supplemental Flax Oil...hehe, but we'll get to my reasoning in a moment.

What you do hear me referencing and singing praises of is EPA and DHA found most richly within cold water fish and marine animals (which many are NOT a fan of) - which leaves me to discuss supplemental fish oil – the good, the bad, and the ugly - all 3 of which apply here.

[3] The Omega-6's (outside of CLA): LA, GLA, DGLA, AA

Linoleic Acid (LA): safflower, sunflower, hemp, soybean, walnut, pumpkin, sesame, and flax are the ones many books will offer suggestion of ... the best known flax, yet likely the worst off for you ... go figure! My suggested list includes in this order: walnut, sesame, and pumpkin and yes, in that order for various rationales ... but from a body composition standpoint...unless all other factors are in check ... supplemental sources are likely unneeded ... except for perhaps a little prostate protection from the pumpkin seed oil. Now, please understand what I mean when I say this ... if all dietary factors are controlled for ... supplemental Omega-6's likely have benefit, however, considering that this ratio is likely far overreaching in a prototypical diet ... supplemental Omega 6 is UNWARRANTED.

GLA: Borage Oil is the richest source of the gamma acid, but you'll also get ads for black currant seed oil and evening primrose. All of these fatty acids have LIMITED VALUE from a body composition standpoint, when factoring in health and true study findings outside of a Petri (test tube) analysis.

DGLA: Likely the most useful contributing to formation of series-1 prostaglandins, but supplemental form can be tricky so for the average person, I don't recommend this either.

Arachidonic Acid: There is some benefit to this, though I cannot from my position and at this stage of the game recommend any constant supplementation outside of the suggested 50-day protocols ... again, already taking into consideration that many people's Omega 6: Omega 3 ratio is already plenty shifted in the wrong direction – and this does include body composition standpoints, though shifting various series prostaglandins from time to time could bode you well - again - same scenario IF AND ONLY IF ALL OTHER DIETARY
FATS ARE HIGHLY CONTROLLED FOR.

Final thoughts on POLYUNSATURATES...
We now know that some of the modern-day assumptions about the EFAs originated with faulty interpretation of certain tests performed in the 1930s. In fact, in just as quick a breath as I said my piece on CLA, Omega-3s and Omega-6's, I also point out some fundamental issues we MUST keep in mind. Polyunsaturated fatty acids interfere with thyroid hormone in just about every conceivable way ... AND when that's not all ... it must also be stated that they have a strong estrogen-promoting action. In fact, polyunsaturated fats synergize with estrogen. One way we have figured this out through translation is in female studies whereas female offspring wind up with an increased tendency to develop breast cancer. But I also would like to emphasize that excessive consumption of these types of fats leads directly to the development of such degenerative scourages as cancer, diabetes, heart disease, arthritis, osteoporosis, and connective tissue disease.

What the hell dinoiii? You tell us to consume these things, then you say they do all of this terrible stuff. Don't get excited ... I would tell you if I was sitting in front of you ... there is hope and this is where it is important to discover how I came up with the ratios I did below. These are for body composition rationale as well as general health. Though arguments could certainly be made that the two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[dinoiii]

The MONOUNSATURATES

For our discussion, you can readily think of the monounsatrates important in human health as either the Omega-9's and Omega-7's.
We really need to talk about these guys because they are so very important in bodybuilder's diets and their mere inclusion will yield phenomenal body composition changes.

[1] The Omega 9's: Oleic Acid (OA)

There are multiple conversion pathways from OA as a precursor (i.e. - nervonic acid, stearic acid). I know what you are thinking though - omigod dinoiii, I don't consume ANY OA! Rest assured, you likely do if your diet is in check as a bodybuilder. Large quantities of OA is found in olive, almond, avocado, pecan, cashew, filbert and macadamia nut oils, though if body composition is on your mind, you will only be concerned with olive, almond, avocado, and pecan oils from that list...the others also contain a greater proportion of saturated fats. Let's take the peanut...it has a rather high concentration of something called arachidic acid ... if you're thinking sweet I can afford peanuts, I can't afford X-factor...not so fast...arachidic acid (AchA) does NOT equal arachidonic acid (AA).

Now, OA can be produced in particular quantities in your body ... hence, the rationale that it is NOT considered an "essential" fatty acid. This does NOT mean that it is produced at significant levels for body composition goals, but I will go into more detail about this a bit later in the discussion.

[2] The Omega 7's: Palmitoleic Acid (POA)

Again, this category is going to be essentially synonomous with POA - though palmitic acid is another high profile omega 7 as well. Great sources of POA are tropical oils though the only one worth significant discussion here is coconut oil.
Many might ask me, why dinoiii do you include monounsaturates in your prescription for fat loss, when we have already discussed the important prostaglandin synthesis within the polyunsaturates? While that is a fair question - BOTH YOUR Omega 7's and 9's are going to govern conversion into cholesterol synthesis, but most importantly not as cholesterol that will be clogging your arteries up, well not when balanced properly with Omega 3's and 6's (see the importance of balance) but will find their way en route to androgenic cascades (read: synthesis of testosterone and hormonal cascades that will dictate you life).

The SATURATES

This is likely the only place I will bring into action those enzymes I said were beyond the scope earlier. Saturated Fatty acids have the potential to block the desaturase enzymes en route to production of various by products that will offer you great body composition to boot. This is why I do NOT recommend too much "supplementation" with them ... at least directly and yet another reason I can say that peanuts can be avoided.

Its not necessarily the saturated fatty acids per se, either ... but their readily converted ability to wind up trans fatty acids through isomeric conversion processes through either oxidation, heating them up/getting them to be affected through various light sources, etc...

We will safely assume a carnivorous diet will include some stearic acid (SA) through beef, but I think you can be successful in bodybuilding pursuits to limit beef consumption to about 1 time per day at a maximum level and still keep things running smoothly when considering all the other fatty acid cascades we have spoke of. Your palmitic acid source is going to be coconut ... because we obviously are familiar with Medium Chain Triglycerides (MCTs) ... but these too can only exert true body composition properties at large and highly unlikely economical levels. All other fatty acids in this category can be made by your body and are unneeded through diet and/or supplemental sources.

 

[dinoiii]

Q: Which fatty acids don't stack well together? Which do?

dinoiii's A:

[1] Stack Well: Hmmm, well I personally think that EPA/DHA should be ingested at ALL times, but I would assume you may be asking if any negate the potential body composition effects of another. For us, I think it is absolutely imperative to up many "natural" bodybuilding as well as those on current anabolic cycles' fatty acid contents to begin with. But obviously when we shift for say things like Omega-6 predominance (i.e. - AA cycle), then this may be the wrong atmosphere IF THE PROPOSED MECHANISM OF ACTION FOR HOW AA WORKS was hypothesized correctly. As you already know, there are many trials with people ingesting AA +/ - fish oil supps and the like. I think the "+" category offers the potential for too may confounding variables. Also, anything over 3-4 grams of CLA may have an inhibitory effect on AA production as well and is why CLA has also been hypothesized to harbor anti-cancer type properties. The question remains whether or not body composition would care about cancer potential though. As funny as that likely isn't - it IS very true! So, again ... in the time frame of AA supplementation should you want to reap complete reward, I would also suggest taking out any and all CLA in supplemental form as one will likely mess with the other. There are ONLY subtractive effects.

Ok, dinoiii but you still haven't suggested which stack well together...well I sort of did actually above...but you may not have seen it as I didn't just say A + B is good. EPA/DHA (EFA's) + CLA = good stack. Hmmmm...well ok, but you didn't really get too sexy with your answer ... nope, in fact, I am not trying to re-create the wheel...but offer you what would be essential with as much synergism and cost-efficiency as possible...because there will be tricks to dosing parameters in the questions that follow.

Well, what about Sesamin dinoiii...Brent asked directly about Sesamin? Yes, however Brent asked about specific "fatty acids" above ... implying that sesamin was a fatty acid is a significant misnomer. Sesamin is a lignan present within sesame oil, but let's talk about it a bit below and how to best employ/harvest its use in the supplemental realm from what the research really says. I will try and keep it as simple as possible... "minor" talks about PPAR receptors and stacking potential.

 

[dinoiii]

Q: What should fatty acids be stacked with?

dinoiii's A:

[1] CLA: Brent and I had discussions about this on another board and I think he was getting at this when he asked his stack question. In a 2002 study presented at an Experimental Biology conference/meeting, CLA vs. CLA + guarana was compared on body composition end products...Yes, it was done on mice ... but follow-ups in humans look very good and I can attest to great results we have had in the labs here in Rochester. After six weeks, both groups of mice showed a substantial reduction in fat mass. In the CLA-only group, the decreased fat mass was due to dramatic reduction in adipocyte size without a change in adipocyte number. In the CLA plus guarana group, both adipocyte size and number were reduced by 50%!!! The results of this study demonstrate that dietary CLA decreases excess fat accumulation by reducing the capacity of adipocytes to store fat. When guarana is added to CLA, there is an additional effect of reduction in adipocyte number, as well as a decrease in adipocyte size. The impact of this finding in preventing obesity is profound, but is it easy to just suggest putting a pill together that includes CLA and guarana will do the trick ... come on...first off, if that were the case, I wouldn't be sharing the information with you...I would be in the process of marketing such a concoction. No offense, but let's be real. Anyone who understands the processing of such construction couldn't dose both proper and guarantee anything but perhaps CLA isomer destruction. But, I won't make as big an issue I did about CLA and the lies told about the compound like I did to one supplement company owner over on DA ... oh, its so true...I think its taken for granted nobody will understand the chemistry, or that no one will call someone on it. Guys, a 90% CLA cap is a load of crap as much as saying flax oil does anything but offer you increased estrogenic effects!!! But we'll move on to my suggested doses below.

 

[dinoiii]

Q: How many grams do we need to see benefits for each one?

dinoiii's A:

[1] CLA

Rat Studies: First, when studies showed that if 1% of the total diet by weight, which comes to 10g/kg x 6 weeks offers significant metabolic change; however this yields HUGE doses when translated to humans ... the prototypical 200 pound-bodybuilder for instance would need about 91 grams of CLA, but that would be to see a reduction of bodyfat by 43-88% if the studies translated neatly. So while its neat and you could hypothetically see huge losses if replicated in humans exactly, it is likely impractical...so we did some things...we went on to down that initial 1% of the total diet to 0.5%, but you still when translated to humans would get in the range of a 15-60% reduction in body fat with a 14% increase in lean body mass. Sweet Jesus! Still likely impractical as 45 grams of CLA per day too is a bit too much. So, what did we do, we attempted to create standardization techniques when we did some Petri analyses of the various isomeric constituents of the compound.

To keep it simple, I will ALWAYS SAY stick with either Tonalin or Clarinol brands, though Tonalin still trumps the latter in how much they tend to be able to sequester as an FYI. This is what studies are done on ... all the other stuff is pure hogwash! Vitamin Shoppe sells a quality Tonalin CLA (like 180 caps for $29 ... and consider saving on both shipping and getting points in their little club and you can mass dose to match any other silly companies projections).

Adequate Efficacious Dosing (Volume of Distribution):
< 150 pounds: gain more weight!!!!
150-170 pounds: 8-10 grams
170-200 pounds: 10-12 grams
200-230 pounds: 12-14 grams
> 240 pounds: It likely becomes a bit less economical!!!

[2] Omega 3's

I have been saying it since I began writing on these bb boards and it is a VERY long time that you could trace it: 3 grams of combined supplemental EPA and DHA. No! I did NOT suggest weight categories just yet, that is the average... but to expand on this so people can see why I have picked this number, I will sure do. Deal?

I won't focus on all of the health benefits, Lord knows I have spoken of them judiciously in other places. What I will offer up is information you can use to deal with better body comp ... which leads me to my aforementioned 3 grams number. I didn't just arbitrarily pull a number out of my hat, ya know? Though in many "experts" work, it would seem that they do just that. Studies that used ranges of 2,000 - 4,000 mg (2-4 grams) per day of EPA + DHA from supplements and fish have reported significant increases in strength as well as aerobic performance (though I also argue that data might suggest that the aerobic part not be needed ... but again ... this is all over the place in my writing as well, but there are aerobic fibers that will aid body comp while performing high rep movements too and I have talked about the definitions of "intensity" in places on this very forum - aerobic and anaerobic and how they vary). What kind of improvements you ask? Bench Press repetitions, faster running times, reduced muscular inflammation (again ... appropriate timing may bode body comp just as much as a cycle of AA, but this is certainly subject for debate), as well as longer jumping distances. The hypothesized models that scientists offer to suggest why such effects might be seen: combined effects EPA and DHA might have on the body, including: improved GH production (and likely more important subsequent IGF-1), anti-inflammatory action, enhanced oxygen metabolism, lower blood viscosity (thickness) leading to better oxygen and nutrient delivery to muscles, and obviously improved recovery - the last one more likely a secondary event.
So what about my recommendations further broken down (hehe ... I know 3 grams is just an average)...

Adequate Efficacious Dosing (Volume of Distribution):
<170 pounds: 2 grams combined EPA + DHA
170-200 pounds: 3 grams combined EPA + DHA
> 200 pounds: 4 grams combined EPA + DHA

* dinoiii's note: while one could expect the potential added bonus of more when body weights are higher than 230 pounds or so, higher tallies have never been suggested in supplemental form, so I am not sure additional benefit (at least from a well-researched aspect) would be of more benefit.

[3] Sesamin

Again ... not really a fatty acid per se, a lignan extract ... but caloric tallies still apply because of it being an extract NOT a new drug (not sure if that makes much sense, but trust me on that one without making me type it out).
Due to the concentrated areas of PPAR receptors, namely where new fats are ... i.e. - the liver in highest concentration. The use of sesamin can theoretically prevent storage of new fats at their production site (the liver) would hault the process at its epicenter. But, it also sets into action the cascade of lipid breakdown in the liver as well (at least animal studies support this very well).

You asked about synergies above. Well, sesamin also boosts the weight-loss effects of CLA. Japanese scientists studied whether dietary manipulations could enhance CLA's effects in reducing body fat. They found that sesamin helped stimulate the loss of adipose tissue. Researchers think that sesame lignans increase CLA's effects by stimulating a pathway of fatty acid breakdown called beta-oxidation.
The combination of CLA with sesamin is also effective in lowering serum triglycerides, according to another research team. Triglycerides may increase the risk of heart disease and stroke. Enhanced fatty-acid oxidation in the liver may be responsible for the triglyceride-lowering effect of CLA and sesamin.

That's not all though...and this is where Brent's questions were kind of blurred. Sesamin also enhance vitamin E's absorption and availability, improve lipid profiles, and help normalize blood pressure.

Here's where our discussion gets a bit sticky. The use of sesame seed lignans like sesamin or episesamin is said to act on PPAR alpha receptors to activate beta oxidation cascades, but this gets very complex in nature for the scope of this piece I think. What you more likely want to know is how to come up with dosing parameters.

While dosing parameters haven't been anything but hypothesized...it seems to have an added benefit with increasing dose and likely requires a ramp up with weight. Studies on rats actually showed most benefit at .5% of the diet. Of course to alter higher basal metabolisms, one could assume dose-adjustment in increment-fashion as weight increases but NOTHING MORE. Again don’t fall for an ad claim.
Does this mean not to use it? NO, in fact, I think that its use is well hypothesized and the potential synergism that exists with CLA cannot and should NOT be overlooked!

Avant Labs is the company that will boast being the "first to bring sesamin to the market"... well I agree with it with modification ... Avant was the first SPORTS SUPPLEMENT company to offer this addition and nothing more. Its not a new invention and has been around for years ... just look at the life-extensionist camps! Remember that there are two sides of the supplement market - both happen to take ideas from one another. I am not saying it is a bad thing, in fact ...only the consumer could benefit ... that is, provided companies get dosing suggestion and the like purported properly.

That said, the dosing here is a bit different and must be adjusted accordingly. See the values that follow.

Adequate Efficacious Dosing (Volume of Distribution):
<170 pounds: 500 mg 3 times per day
170-200 pounds: 1000 mg 3 times per day
> 200 pounds: 1500 mg 3 times per day

[4] Quick Notes about the best of the rest

Monounsaturates: Stick to nuts (walnuts, pecans, and almonds ONLY for the body- builder), avocados, and olive oils.

Medium-Chain Triglycerides (MCTs): Conflicting reports, likely unable to attain a good efficacious dose that is also cost-efficient. During times of dieting anecdotal report alone says 400 calories of a 2000 calorie diet comprised of MCTs produce good results. You know how dinoiii interprets this nonsense? When 400 calories of an already calorically-deficient diet likely rendering it on the lower-carb side is employed, the only thing that could likely happen is weight loss ... anything else, I say stick with the above.

 

[dinoiii]

Summary:

Fat Loss Programs:
< 150 pounds: 2 grams combined EPA + DHA, 500 mg Sesamin 3 times per day
150-170 pounds: 2 grams combined EPA + DHA, 8-10 grams CLA, 500 mg Sesamin 3 times per day
170-200 pounds: 10-12 grams, 3 grams combined EPA + DHA, 1000 mg Sesamin 3 times per day
>200 pounds: 12-14 grams, 4 grams combined EPA + DHA, 1500 mg Sesamin 3 times per day

dinoiii's note: I would recommend adding guarana to your morning doses of CLA at about 250 mg each dose. Assessing tolerance to this methylxanthine containing substance, you may want to be wary of caffeinated beverages as well as other methylxanthine containing products. But this is cheap with better research to boot in your fat loss arsenal and you don't need to spend an arm and a leg either - generics rule. Oh btw, don't ingest too much past say 1:00 or 2:00pm, however, another couple of PM grams of CLA would bode you well.


Mass Style Programs:
Simply Exclude guarana and Sesamin, though Sesamin may produce a nutrient-partitioning effect at least from a theoretical standpoint (however, cost-efficiency would dictate not employing it at this time)

If I have yet to answer something to your liking or a specification is needed about something I have said...let me know.

D_

 

[MAxximal]

GREAT!!!!! I WAITING FOR THIS

 

[TheDarkHalf]

Awesome Info!

 

[Sourdough]

Incredible read... This is actually exactly what I needed to know and was planning on asking as I got closer to purchasing a ton of stuff in december....

Do any of these dosing numbers change while on cycle or pct?

 

[Sourdough]

Also for clarification.... Cla and the omegas, namely cla.... Is this dose split up through the days or are you talking 12g all in the morning? Lol...

Should be split up is what my own reasoning is telling me, but you specified separate doses of sesamin although did not for cla, dha/epa leaving me wondering why.

Thanks D.

 

[mattrag]

Man this is something I've always been interested in this end too. Aminos, fats, not all the same. This cleared up the second area very well! Thanks!!

 

[Sourdough]

Sorry, last question...I know suggestions were made regarding brands already but I just wanted to catch your opinion on these

only because I already have them and figure I would take them first and dunno if manufac. rec dose fits your guidelines with the separate isomers included....

 

[MAxximal]

Q: How many grams do we need to see benefits for each one?

dinoiii's A:


[3] Sesamin

Again ... not really a fatty acid per se, a lignan extract ... but caloric tallies still apply because of it being an extract NOT a new drug (not sure if that makes much sense, but trust me on that one without making me type it out).
Due to the concentrated areas of PPAR receptors, namely where new fats are ... i.e. - the liver in highest concentration. The use of sesamin can theoretically prevent storage of new fats at their production site (the liver) would hault the process at its epicenter. But, it also sets into action the cascade of lipid breakdown in the liver as well (at least animal studies support this very well).

You asked about synergies above. Well, sesamin also boosts the weight-loss effects of CLA. Japanese scientists studied whether dietary manipulations could enhance CLA's effects in reducing body fat. They found that sesamin helped stimulate the loss of adipose tissue. Researchers think that sesame lignans increase CLA's effects by stimulating a pathway of fatty acid breakdown called beta-oxidation.
The combination of CLA with sesamin is also effective in lowering serum triglycerides, according to another research team. Triglycerides may increase the risk of heart disease and stroke. Enhanced fatty-acid oxidation in the liver may be responsible for the triglyceride-lowering effect of CLA and sesamin.

That's not all though...and this is where Brent's questions were kind of blurred. Sesamin also enhance vitamin E's absorption and availability, improve lipid profiles, and help normalize blood pressure.

Here's where our discussion gets a bit sticky. The use of sesame seed lignans like sesamin or episesamin is said to act on PPAR alpha receptors to activate beta oxidation cascades, but this gets very complex in nature for the scope of this piece I think. What you more likely want to know is how to come up with dosing parameters.

While dosing parameters haven't been anything but hypothesized...it seems to have an added benefit with increasing dose and likely requires a ramp up with weight. Studies on rats actually showed most benefit at .5% of the diet. Of course to alter higher basal metabolisms, one could assume dose-adjustment in increment-fashion as weight increases but NOTHING MORE. Again don’t fall for an ad claim.
Does this mean not to use it? NO, in fact, I think that its use is well hypothesized and the potential synergism that exists with CLA cannot and should NOT be overlooked!

Avant Labs is the company that will boast being the "first to bring sesamin to the market"... well I agree with it with modification ... Avant was the first SPORTS SUPPLEMENT company to offer this addition and nothing more. Its not a new invention and has been around for years ... just look at the life-extensionist camps! Remember that there are two sides of the supplement market - both happen to take ideas from one another. I am not saying it is a bad thing, in fact ...only the consumer could benefit ... that is, provided companies get dosing suggestion and the like purported properly.

That said, the dosing here is a bit different and must be adjusted accordingly. See the values that follow.

Adequate Efficacious Dosing (Volume of Distribution):
<170 pounds: 500 mg 3 times per day
170-200 pounds: 1000 mg 3 times per day
> 200 pounds: 1500 mg 3 times per day

[4] Quick Notes about the best of the rest

Monounsaturates: Stick to nuts (walnuts, pecans, and almonds ONLY for the body- builder), avocados, and olive oils.

Medium-Chain Triglycerides (MCTs): Conflicting reports, likely unable to attain a good efficacious dose that is also cost-efficient. During times of dieting anecdotal report alone says 400 calories of a 2000 calorie diet comprised of MCTs produce good results. You know how dinoiii interprets this nonsense? When 400 calories of an already calorically-deficient diet likely rendering it on the lower-carb side is employed, the only thing that could likely happen is weight loss ... anything else, I say stick with the above.

apart of Avant another "trusted" Sesamin product?

 

[ssbackwards]

what about jungle peanuts that contain 40% more oleic acid then regular peanuts?

also i thought that CLA was a PPARy AGONIST which doesnt that mean it enhances adipocyte differentiation and the uptake of fats into cell

this says otherwise...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006291X03004133

but this one says it activates ppary so theoretically wouldnt that cause weight gain?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0271531702003937
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1096637408000026

i assume theres different subsets of PPARy you would want to activate and some you want to attenuate? can you provide information to further help us decide which one to activate and attenuate?
Maybe you can do a PPAR thread if that is at all possible so we dont skew discussionm?

 

[dinoiii]

Incredible read... This is actually exactly what I needed to know and was planning on asking as I got closer to purchasing a ton of stuff in december....

Do any of these dosing numbers change while on cycle or pct?

Only if bodyweight was to change according to the outlined parameters.

Also for clarification.... Cla and the omegas, namely cla.... Is this dose split up through the days or are you talking 12g all in the morning? Lol...

Should be split up is what my own reasoning is telling me, but you specified separate doses of sesamin although did not for cla, dha/epa leaving me wondering why.

Thanks D.

From an ergogenic standpoint, I actually don't think splitting the dose will make all that much difference.

From an economical and aesthetic standpoint, taking them all at once could cause an uneven shift in insulin response (i.e. - alter glycemic variation) and/or be too calorically expensive at one time.

That said, I think it would be reason alone to split it up; but if it isn't having a lot of impact on body composition, then it likely won't matter. It'd be a lot of fat at once too from a reflux standpoint and some may simply not be able to tolerate it all at once. Keep in mind...they are fatty acids.

Sorry, last question...I know suggestions were made regarding brands already but I just wanted to catch your opinion on these


only because I already have them and figure I would take them first and dunno if manufac. rec dose fits your guidelines with the separate isomers included....

Well, if the dosing is accurate (and I cannot say I have tested these) then they are on par with Tonalin brand CLA as far as quantity of active isomer and they are cheap as hell if that price is correct...112 gels for $8.95 is hard to argue with.

The only reason I ever suggest Tonalin is it really is where the studies come from, so it is hard to suggest ANY CLA will follow suit (Clarinol is a close second and now has higher concentration of active isomers on some varieties, but still no invested data dollars, which is most important for my money). I would be interested in comparing these ones though due to cost alone...I mean, they are seriously a value at this cost.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

apart of Avant another "trusted" Sesamin product?

http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/scivation/sesamin-180-cap-180-softgels.html

http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/man/vaporize-90-softgels.html

But, God how I wish they'd bring SesaThin back. There's not a lot of supplements I would say that about either, BUT that was one that if you ever got a chance to use it; you'd say the rest of this category is second-rate at best.

I do recommend stacking with cheap guarana supplement though as there is interesting data with the two. If you want a good CLA + Sesamin + Guarana supplement, LEF has one combo (although, the Sesamin is grossly underdosed, it is cheap enough to use say this Super CLA Blend + MAN Vaporize)....

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00819/Super-CLA-Blend-with-Guarana-and-Sesame-Lignans.html

what about jungle peanuts that contain 40% more oleic acid then regular peanuts?

also i thought that CLA was a PPARy AGONIST which doesnt that mean it enhances adipocyte differentiation and the uptake of fats into cell

this says otherwise...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006291X03004133

but this one says it activates ppary so theoretically wouldnt that cause weight gain?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0271531702003937
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1096637408000026

i assume theres different subsets of PPARy you would want to activate and some you want to attenuate? can you provide information to further help us decide which one to activate and attenuate?
Maybe you can do a PPAR thread if that is at all possible so we dont skew discussionm?

yeah, how bout we do another thread for PPAR discussion as it is kind of a thread that's a step above this one; let me pen something in the next couple days that addresses this.


D_

 

[ssbackwards]

http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/scivation/sesamin-180-cap-180-softgels.html

http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/man/vaporize-90-softgels.html

But, God how I wish they'd bring SesaThin back. There's not a lot of supplements I would say that about either, BUT that was one that if you ever got a chance to use it; you'd say the rest of this category is second-rate at best.

I do recommend stacking with cheap guarana supplement though as there is interesting data with the two. If you want a good CLA + Sesamin + Guarana supplement, LEF has one combo (although, the Sesamin is grossly underdosed, it is cheap enough to use say this Super CLA Blend + MAN Vaporize)....

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00819/Super-CLA-Blend-with-Guarana-and-Sesame-Lignans.html





yeah, how bout we do another thread for PPAR discussion as it is kind of a thread that's a step above this one; let me pen something in the next couple days that addresses this.


D_

Thanx