Fertility

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    Fertility


    This comes up both in the post-cycle period amonst other times.

    There is a great deal of interest in fertility medicine and OTC options. As such, I have an increasing number of guys come to me - now in their 40s - having used agents in the past, but who now say..."Wait a minute, I DO want children...now what?"

    This is the thread for anything related to fertility - treatment, molecular discussions, your own semen analyses, etc...



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    A lot of attention has been given to the use of Mucuna in fertility and when comparing it to fertility drugs it does have a special effect...it is probably the only thing I have seen to increase both sperm count AND motility (two quintessential numbers when evaluating a male ejaculate). Even hCG, which does increase count, but at the same time lowers the seminal volume and motility may leave you ultimately with the same concentration of sperm.


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    This thread is very interesting to me as I work in an andrology lab in a reproductive medicine practice in NJ. Will be definitely stopping in to read about people's experiences.
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    Do people use mucana indefinitely or 5 day on and 2 days off?
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew732
    Do people use mucana indefinitely or 5 day on and 2 days off?
    Interested in the results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew732 View Post
    Do people use mucana indefinitely or 5 day on and 2 days off?
    This is an interesting question actually. And for those who may be curious and have yet to stop by the DAA thread, we talk about the dopamine downregulation issues there unto which I have brought up protocols like the 5-on; 2-off and/or 3-on; 1 off variety to attempt to govern against this issue.

    I can say this...the study suggested mucuna at 5 GRAMS (higher than any supplement you would likely take) daily for three months straight; I am unaware of data beyond that timeframe. We have to likely concern ourselves with whether or not these effects are seen at lower doses of mucuna (even if attenuated).

    As you look at semen analyses, the two most pertinent things to look at are: Sperm Count (are there enough of them? Of course, you only need one theoretically, but we can make many assumptions based on the population at large for those who fall lower on the scale. 20 million is the quoted average; whereas < 5 million is truly "subfertile" with ok motiliy and "infertile" with lower motility) and Motility (can they swim well? a number greater than 50% is good).

    Many times, thereapeutic agents increase one at the expense of the other (hCG included). The luxury is that this is NOT what was seen with the mucuna study in which BOTH parameters were improved.


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    So let me ask you another question. What dose of mucana at 50% would you recommend daily on a 5 on and 2 day off protocol?
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    Depending on the guidelines, we follow World Health Organizatiom 5th edition, normal sperm concentration is 15mil/mL or more, and anything below is classified asoligo-zoospermic. Just to clarify for any in here who plan on getting an SA done.

    It is amazing these days with ICSI the couples we are able to help with succesful pregnancies who really have no business being pregnant lol The practice I work at actually has a patented chromosome analysis with which we test 24 chromosomes for abnormalities. Reproductive medicine has come so far its mind boggling, and im new to the field.

    Its amazing to me that mucuna is able to increase both of the most important variables to sperms capability to fertilize the oocyte. Im going to definitely research this more, I wonder if it is something I could even propose to my supervisor and/or the founding partners.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGabe24 View Post
    Depending on the guidelines, we follow World Health Organizatiom 5th edition, normal sperm concentration is 15mil/mL or more, and anything below is classified asoligo-zoospermic. Just to clarify for any in here who plan on getting an SA done.

    It is amazing these days with ICSI the couples we are able to help with succesful pregnancies who really have no business being pregnant lol The practice I work at actually has a patented chromosome analysis with which we test 24 chromosomes for abnormalities. Reproductive medicine has come so far its mind boggling, and im new to the field.

    Its amazing to me that mucuna is able to increase both of the most important variables to sperms capability to fertilize the oocyte. Im going to definitely research this more, I wonder if it is something I could even propose to my supervisor and/or the founding partners.
    Let us know what they think.

    Research to follow...

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    Fertil Steril. 2009 Dec;92(6):1934-40. Epub 2008 Oct 29.
    Mucuna pruriens improves male fertility by its action on the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis.
    Shukla KK, Mahdi AA, Ahmad MK, Shankhwar SN, Rajender S, Jaiswar SP.
    SourceDepartment of Biochemistry, C.S.M. Medical University, Lucknow, India.

    Abstract
    OBJECTIVE: To understand the mechanism of action of Mucuna pruriens in the treatment of male infertility.

    DESIGN: Prospective study.

    SETTING: Departments of Biochemistry, Urology, and Obstetrics and Gynecology, C.S.M. Medical University, Lucknow, India.

    PATIENT(S): Seventy-five normal healthy fertile men (controls) and 75 men undergoing infertility screening.

    INTERVENTION(S): High-performance liquid chromatography assay for quantitation of dopa, adrenaline, and noradrenaline in seminal plasma and blood. Estimation by RIA of hormonal parameters in blood plasma, namely T, LH, FSH, and PRL.

    MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Before and after treatment, serum T, LH, FSH, PRL, dopamine, adrenaline, and noradrenaline in seminal and blood plasma were measured.

    RESULT(S): Decreased sperm count and motility were seen in infertile subjects. Serum T and LH levels, as well as seminal plasma and blood levels of dopamine, adrenaline, and noradrenaline were also decreased in all groups of infertile men. This was accompanied by significantly increased serum FSH and PRL levels in oligozoospermic subjects. Treatment with M. pruriens significantly improved T, LH, dopamine, adrenaline, and noradrenaline levels in infertile men and reduced levels of FSH and PRL. Sperm count and motility were significantly recovered in infertile men after treatment.

    CONCLUSION(S): Treatment with M. pruriens regulates steroidogenesis and improves semen quality in infertile men.

    PMID:18973898[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Fertil Steril. 2008 Sep;90(3):627-35. Epub 2007 Nov 14.
    Effect of Mucuna pruriens on semen profile and biochemical parameters in seminal plasma of infertile men.
    Ahmad MK, Mahdi AA, Shukla KK, Islam N, Jaiswar SP, Ahmad S.
    SourceDepartment of Biochemistry, King George's Medical University, Lucknow, India.

    Abstract
    OBJECTIVE: To investigate the impact of Mucuna pruriens seeds on semen profiles and biochemical levels in seminal plasma of infertile men.

    DESIGN: Prospective study.

    SETTING: Departments of Biochemistry and Obstetrics and Gynecology, King George's Medical University, Lucknow, India.

    PATIENT(S): Sixty normal healthy fertile men (controls) and 60 men undergoing infertility screening.

    INTERVENTION(S): High-performance liquid chromatography assay procedure for quantitation of vitamin A and E in seminal plasma. Biochemical parameters in seminal plasma, namely lipids, fructose, and vitamin C, were estimated by standard spectrophotometric procedures.

    MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Before and after the treatment, seminal plasma lipid profile, lipid peroxide, fructose, and antioxidant vitamin levels were measured.

    RESULT(S): Treatment with M. pruriens significantly inhibited lipid peroxidation, elevated spermatogenesis, and improved sperm motility. Treatment also recovered the levels of total lipids, triglycerides, cholesterol, phospholipids, and vitamin A, C, and E and corrected fructose in seminal plasma of infertile men.

    CONCLUSION(S): Treatment with M. pruriens increased sperm concentration and motility in all the infertile study groups. Oligozoospermic patients recovered sperm concentration significantly, but sperm motility was not restored to normal levels in asthenozoospermic men. Furthermore, in the seminal plasma of all the infertile groups, the levels of lipids, antioxidant vitamins, and corrected fructose were recovered after a decrease in lipid peroxides after treatment. The present study is likely to open new vistas on the possible role of M. pruriens seed powder as a restorative and invigorating agent for infertile men.

    PMID:18001713[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    J Pharm Biomed Anal. 2011 Jul 15;55(5):1060-6. Epub 2011 Mar 11.
    A proton NMR study of the effect of Mucuna pruriens on seminal plasma metabolites of infertile males.
    Gupta A, Mahdi AA, Ahmad MK, Shukla KK, Bansal N, Jaiswer SP, Shankhwar SN.
    SourceDepartment of Biochemistry, Chhatrapati Shahuji Maharaj Medical University, Lucknow, India.

    Abstract
    The objective of this study was to employ proton nuclear magnetic resonance ((1)H NMR) spectroscopy to evaluate the impact of Mucuna pruriens seeds on the metabolic profile of seminal plasma of infertile patients. A total of 180 infertile patients were administered M. pruriens seed powder for a period of three months. Age-matched healthy men comprised the control (n=50) group in the study. Lactate, alanine, choline, citrate, glycerophosphocholine (GPC), glutamine, tyrosine, histidine, phenylalanine, and uridine were measured in seminal plasma by (1)H NMR spectroscopy. To evaluate the degree of infertility and extent of hormonal imbalance induced by this milieu, separate sperm concentration, motility, lipid peroxide in seminal plasma and LH, FSH, T, and PRL hormone concentration in serum were measured using standard laboratory methods and RIA, respectively, in the same subjects. M. pruriens therapy rectifies the perturbed alanine, citrate, GPC, histidine and phenylalanine content in seminal plasma and improves the semen quality of post-treated infertile men with compared to pre-treated. Concomitantly, clinical variables in seminal plasma and blood serum were also improved over post therapy in infertile men. On the basis of these observations, it may be proposed that M. pruriens seed powder not only reactivates the enzymatic activity of metabolic pathways and energy metabolism but also rejuvenates the harmonic balance of male reproductive hormones in infertile men. These findings open more opportunities for infertility treatment and management by improving semen quality.

    Copyright © 2011 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved.

    PMID:21459537[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Evid Based Complement Alternat Med. 2010 Mar;7(1):137-44. Epub 2007 Dec 18.
    Mucuna pruriens Reduces Stress and Improves the Quality of Semen in Infertile Men.
    Shukla KK, Mahdi AA, Ahmad MK, Jaiswar SP, Shankwar SN, Tiwari SC.
    SourceDepartment of Biochemistry, Department of Obstetric & Gynaecology, Department of Urology and Department of Psychiatry, King George's Medical University, Lucknow 226003, India.

    Abstract
    The present investigation was undertaken to assess the role of Mucuna pruriens in infertile men who were under psychological stress. Study included 60 subjects who were undergoing infertility screening and were found to be suffering from psychological stress, assessed on the basis of a questionnaire and elevated serum cortisol levels. Age-matched 60 healthy men having normal semen parameters and who had previously initiated at least one pregnancy were included as controls. Infertile subjects were administered with M. pruriens seed powder (5 g day(-1)) orally. For carrying out morphological and biochemical analysis, semen samples were collected twice, first before starting treatment and second after 3 months of treatment. The results demonstrated decreased sperm count and motility in subjects who were under psychological stress. Moreover, serum cortisol and seminal plasma lipid peroxide levels were also found elevated along with decreased seminal plasma glutathione (GSH) and ascorbic acid contents and reduced superoxide dismutase (SOD) and catalase activity. Treatment with M. pruriens significantly ameliorated psychological stress and seminal plasma lipid peroxide levels along with improved sperm count and motility. Treatment also restored the levels of SOD, catalase, GSH and ascorbic acid in seminal plasma of infertile men. On the basis of results of the present study, it may be concluded that M. pruriens not only reactivates the anti-oxidant defense system of infertile men but it also helps in the management of stress and improves semen quality.

    PMID:18955292[PubMed] PMCID: PMC2816389
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    I'm actually on HCG right now for this. Been on TRT for 6 years and the wife wants a baby, so I've been off TRT and on HCG for about 2.5 months now. Sperm count has doubled and motility is at 53% which is higher than it was. Hoping I only have to take these shots for another month so I can hop back on TRT... I almost feel like I did before getting on TRT, very sluggish, tired, etc..
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Let us know what they think.

    Research to follow...

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    There's 250 employees in the practice...so it's going to be quite some time before I'm able to get in touch with anyone of importance to discuss something like this lol I will be sure to update you though if and when it happens.
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    Very interesting read.
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    How about Pomengranate Juice? There have been some mixed data in the fertility department for females; but if we can extrapolate male rat data, sperm effects are quite interesting...anyone have any luck with this?
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    Clin Nutr. 2008 Apr;27(2):289-96. Epub 2008 Jan 28.
    Effects of pomegranate juice consumption on sperm quality, spermatogenic cell density, antioxidant activity and testosterone level in male rats.

    Türk G, Sönmez M, Aydin M, Yüce A, Gür S, Yüksel M, Aksu EH, Aksoy H.
    Source

    Department of Reproduction and Artificial Insemination, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Firat University, 23119 Elaziğ, Turkey. gturk@firat.edu.tr

    Abstract

    BACKGROUND & AIM:

    Pomegranate fruit is inescapably linked with fertility, birth and eternal life because of its many seeds. The aim of this study was to investigate the effects of pomegranate juice (PJ) consumption on sperm quality, spermatogenic cell density, antioxidant activity and testosterone level of male healthy rats.
    METHODS:

    Twenty-eight healthy adult male Wistar rats were divided into four groups; each group containing seven rats. One milliliter distilled water, 0.25 mL PJ plus 0.75 mL distilled water, 0.50 mL PJ plus 0.50 mL distilled water and 1 mL PJ were given daily for seven weeks by gavage to rats in the first, second, third and fourth groups, respectively. Body and reproductive organ weights, spermatogenic cell density, sperm characteristics, levels of antioxidant vitamins, testosterone, and lipid peroxidation and, antioxidant enzyme activities were investigated. All analyses were done only once at the end of the seven week study period. Data were compared by analysis of variance (ANOVA) and the degree of significance was set at P<0.05.
    RESULTS:

    A significant decrease in malondialdehyde (MDA) level and marked increases in glutathione (GSH), glutathione peroxidase (GSH-Px) and catalase (CAT) activities, and vitamin C level were observed in rats treated with different doses of PJ. PJ consumption provided an increase in epididymal sperm concentration, sperm motility, spermatogenic cell density and diameter of seminiferous tubules and germinal cell layer thickness, and it decreased abnormal sperm rate when compared to the control group.
    CONCLUSION:

    The results suggest that PJ consumption improves sperm quality and antioxidant activity of rats.
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    What's nice is that it seems to be pretty protective against maladies often associated with testosterone increments... for instance, prostate pathology....

    Clinical Cancer Research Vol. 12, 4018-4026, July 1, 2006
    Cancer Therapy: Clinical Phase II Study of Pomegranate Juice for Men with Rising Prostate-Specific Antigen following Surgery or Radiation for Prostate Cancer

    Allan J. Pantuck, John T. Leppert, Nazy Zomorodian, William Aronson, Jenny Hong, R. James Barnard, Navindra Seeram, Harley Liker, Hejing Wang, Robert Elashoff, David Heber, Michael Aviram, Louis Ignarro and Arie Belldegrun. Authors' Affiliations: Departments of Urology, Medicine, Physiologic Science, and Biomathematics, David Geffen School of Medicine, University of California at Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California and 5 Technion Faculty of Medicine, Rambam Medical Center, Bat-Galim, Haifa, Israel

    Purpose: Phytochemicals in plants may have cancer preventive benefits through antioxidation and via gene-nutrient interactions. We sought to determine the effects of pomegranate juice (a major source of antioxidants) consumption on prostate-specific antigen (PSA) progression in men with a rising PSA following primary therapy.

    Experimental Design: A phase II, Simon two-stage clinical trial for men with rising PSA after surgery or radiotherapy was conducted. Eligible patients had a detectable PSA >0.2 and <5 ng/mL and Gleason score ≤7. Patients were treated with 8 ounces of pomegranate juice daily (Wonderful variety, 570 mg total polyphenol gallic acid equivalents) until disease progression. Clinical end points included safety and effect on serum PSA, serum-induced proliferation and apoptosis of LNCaP cells, serum lipid peroxidation, and serum nitric oxide levels.

    Results: The study was fully accrued after efficacy criteria were met. There were no serious adverse events reported and the treatment was well tolerated. Mean PSA doubling time significantly increased with treatment from a mean of 15 months at baseline to 54 months posttreatment (P < 0.001). In vitro assays comparing pretreatment and posttreatment patient serum on the growth of LNCaP showed a 12% decrease in cell proliferation and a 17% increase in apoptosis (P = 0.0048 and 0.0004, respectively), a 23% increase in serum nitric oxide (P = 0.0085), and significant (P < 0.02) reductions in oxidative state and sensitivity to oxidation of serum lipids after versus before pomegranate juice consumption.

    Conclusions: We report the first clinical trial of pomegranate juice in patients with prostate cancer. The statistically significant prolongation of PSA doubling time, coupled with corresponding laboratory effects on prostate cancer in vitro cell proliferation and apoptosis as well as oxidative stress, warrant further testing in a placebo-controlled study.
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    The full text of this article is available on line (on the fruit itself).


    Cell Cycle.
    2006 Feb;5(4):371-3. Epub 2006 Feb 15.
    Prostate cancer prevention through pomegranate fruit.

    Malik A, Mukhtar H.
    Source

    Department of Dermatology, University of Wisconsin, Madison 53706, USA.

    Abstract

    Prostate cancer (CaP) is the second leading cause of cancer-related deaths among U.S. males with a similar trend in many Western countries. CaP is an ideal candidate disease for chemoprevention because it is typically diagnosed in men over 50 years of age, and thus even a modest delay in disease progression achieved through pharmacological or nutritional intervention could significantly impact the quality of life of these patients. In this regard we and others have proposed the use of dietary antioxidants as candidate CaP chemopreventive agents. The fruit pomegranate derived from the tree Punica granatum has been shown to possess strong antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties. In a recent study, we showed that pomegranate fruit extract (PFE), through modulations in the cyclin kinase inhibitor-cyclin-dependent kinase machinery, resulted in inhibition of cell growth followed by apoptosis of highly aggressive human prostate carcinoma PC3 cells. These events were associated with alterations in the levels of Bax and Bcl-2 shifting the Bax:Bcl-2 ratio in favor of apoptosis. Further, we showed that oral administration of a human acceptable dose of PFE to athymic nude mice implanted with CWR22Rnu1 cells resulted in significant inhibition of tumor growth with concomitant reduction in secretion of prostate-specific antigen (PSA) in the serum. The outcome of this study could have a direct practical implication and translational relevance to CaP patients, because it suggests that pomegranate consumption may retard CaP progression, which may prolong the survival and quality of life of the patients.

    PMID:16479165[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Some may not think this prostate talk is pertinent, but please recall that the prostate does offer a contribution, albeit modest, to the male ejaculate.


    Probably mechanistically related to antioxidant prowess alongside NO regulation.


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    Recently married and looking to have a child soon...in my late 20s. Might possibly add mucuna after reading a few studies on its affect on motility etc etc.

    Dr D....for your 5 on 2 off protocol, is that only if you supplement with DAA as well? I do not use DAA and looking at this NOW dopa mucuna yeilding 120mg per 2 cap serving.

    Also regarding selenium...my multi-vitamin has 200mcg...is this enough?

    Thanks doc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRC View Post
    Recently married and looking to have a child soon...in my late 20s. Might possibly add mucuna after reading a few studies on its affect on motility etc etc.

    Dr D....for your 5 on 2 off protocol, is that only if you supplement with DAA as well? I do not use DAA and looking at this NOW dopa mucuna yeilding 120mg per 2 cap serving.
    Well, if your plans are pregnancy in the acute state (read < 3 months), then we obviously have data suggesting daily use at up to 5 grams (15-20% extract) is ok! BUT, this is depedent upon the extract used. Are you saying that the NOW brand supplies 120mg L-dopa per 2 caps? If you need to extend beyond the period of 3 months, it may be best to use a 5-on, 2-off protocol as it is anything but a hypothetical at this time.



    Also regarding selenium...my multi-vitamin has 200mcg...is this enough?

    Thanks doc!
    That's a bit trickier a question than you might think. If the MVI is standard, it most probably uses sodium selenite (due to cost) which is very toxic. If you are using l-selenomethionine...you are getting the inorganic form bound to the amino acid methionine, which is not readily toxic. Without a weight/height offering, 200mcg in the selenomethionine form is what I would recommend; another reason to caution against the multi (it cuts too many corners to give a "cost break" although that cost comes with relatively useless nutrients like cyano version of B12 and sodium selenite, outside of all the minerals reaciting negating the effects of others - selenium at least doesn't have a lot of interactions).


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii

    Well, if your plans are pregnancy in the acute state (read < 3 months), then we obviously have data suggesting daily use at up to 5 grams (15-20% extract) is ok! BUT, this is depedent upon the extract used. Are you saying that the NOW brand supplies 120mg L-dopa per 2 caps? If you need to extend beyond the period of 3 months, it may be best to use a 5-on, 2-off protocol as it is anything but a hypothetical at this time.

    That's a bit trickier a question than you might think. If the MVI is standard, it most probably uses sodium selenite (due to cost) which is very toxic. If you are using l-selenomethionine...you are getting the inorganic form bound to the amino acid methionine, which is not readily toxic. Without a weight/height offering, 200mcg in the selenomethionine form is what I would recommend; another reason to caution against the multi (it cuts too many corners to give a "cost break" although that cost comes with relatively useless nutrients like cyano version of B12 and sodium selenite, outside of all the minerals reaciting negating the effects of others - selenium at least doesn't have a lot of interactions).

    D_
    Thanks for the reply! Yes the NOW mucuna reads 120mg L-dopa per 2 vcap serving. I was going to take 1 serving(2 caps) a day and start there. This would be for only a month, maybe longer I am not sure.

    My multi is NOW Adam and I'm not sure what type of selenium it uses ....just know it reads 200mcg. I am 5'7'' 185lbs and hopefully the multi doesn't include the toxic version! I'll have to email NOW & ask.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRC View Post
    Thanks for the reply! Yes the NOW mucuna reads 120mg L-dopa per 2 vcap serving. I was going to take 1 serving(2 caps) a day and start there. This would be for only a month, maybe longer I am not sure.
    You are fine to run it daily unless sides [unusual for most] develop.


    My multi is NOW Adam and I'm not sure what type of selenium it uses ....just know it reads 200mcg. I am 5'7'' 185lbs and hopefully the multi doesn't include the toxic version! I'll have to email NOW & ask.
    It uses L-selenomethionine; you should be ok in selenium requirements.



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    I was on test for 9 months, and had run a couple cycles of h-drol and winstrol during that time, and towards the end of my h-drol run (at the 9 month mark on test) I got tested for sperm count. It was well below the reference range. LH and FSH were below normal too. After about 6 weeks 'off' and running pct meds (HMG the first week, then nolva and letro afterwords), my LH, FSH, and test levels went WAY up (all above the reference range, test was 900-something) but my sperm count was still low. Took me several months to restore sperm count, even though my HTPA was fully recovered.

    You don't need ANYTHING fancy to recover fertility. As long as your testes still function, and you get your FSH and LH up, you will have lots of test and a normal sperm count.
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    There are actually an increasing number of cases where fertile parameters are taking much longer to recover. The literature once cited 6 months as the average time to recovery; unfortunately, this was a number during times of severe underreporting.


    if we look at the parameters on a biochemical level; here's a case of deca being used and a year-long recovery process:

    J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2011 Aug 22. [Epub ahead of print]
    Long term perturbation of endocrine parameters and cholesterol metabolism after discontinued abuse of anabolic androgenic steroids.

    Gårevik N, Strahm E, Garle M, Lundmark J, Ståhle L, Ekström L, Rane A.
    Source

    Karolinska Institutet, Division of Clinical Pharmacology, Karolinska University Hospital, SE-141 86 Stockholm, Sweden.

    Abstract

    AIMS:

    To study the long-term impact of anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) abuse on the cholesterol profile, and the potential to suppress endocrine activity in men working out at gym facilities. To study the relation between urinary biomarkers for testosterone and nandrolone abuse and the UGT2B17 genotype and time profile.
    EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN:

    Subjects (N=56) were recruited through Anti-Doping Hot-Line. Serum levels of luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), plasma levels of low density lipoprotein (LDL), high density lipoprotein (HDL) and urinary steroid profile were regularly measured for a period of up to one year after cessation of intramuscular AAS abuse.
    RESULTS AND DISCUSSION:

    A sustained suppression of LH, and FSH was observed for several months. The nandrolone urinary biomarker 19-NA was detectable several months after the last nandrolone intake and was correlated to the levels of LH and FSH. Testosterone abuse on the other hand was detectable only for a few weeks, and some of the testosterone abusers did not test positive due to a genetic deletion polymorphism of the UGT2B17. Significantly increased levels of HDL and decreased levels of LDL were observed for 6-months after cessation of AAS abuse.
    CONCLUSION:

    Some individuals had a sustained suppression of LH and FSH for a period of 1 year whereas the cholesterol profile was normalized within 6 month. The long term consequences of these findings remain to be established.


    ______________________________ ______________________________ ________________________


    Here's a case report (uncertain if everyone has access) which took 3 years until recovery:


    Fertil Steril. 2011 Jul;96(1):e7-8. Epub 2011 May 14.
    Persistent primary hypogonadism associated with anabolic steroid abuse.

    Boregowda K, Joels L, Stephens JW, Price DE.
    Source

    Department of Diabetes and Endocrinology, Morriston Hospital, Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Health Board, Swansea, Wales, United Kingdom. kusuma.boregowda@wales.nhs.uk

    Abstract

    OBJECTIVE:

    To report a case of primary gonadal failure due to the chronic abuse of anabolic steroids used for bodybuilding.
    DESIGN:

    Case report.
    SETTING:

    Department of Diabetes and Endocrinology, Morriston Hospital, Swansea, Wales, United Kingdom.
    PATIENT(S):

    A 40-year-old man.
    INTERVENTION(S):

    None.
    MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S):

    Clinical symptoms, levels of serum T, FSH, and LH.
    RESULT(S):

    Primary gonadal failure resulting from anabolic steroid use.
    CONCLUSION(S):

    We describe a case of initially secondary gonadal failure resulting from anabolic steroid use with subsequent primary gonadal failure and infertility. This case adds to the current literature and illustrates that the side effects of anabolic steroids can be prolonged and irreversible.
    Copyright © 2011 American Society for Reproductive Medicine. Published by Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

    PMID:21575947[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    This case was also covered on ergo-log for those who don't get access to the journal to read their interpretation:

    http://ergo-log.com/hormonesstilloffbalance.html


    ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ ______

    Then, of course, there's this scariness...

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2360778/

    Guy treated with hCG; regained control of HPGA, but when injections stopped...his T levels (and you can likely assume spermatogenic parameters) plummeted even to lower levels than in the peri-cycle period.





    * It's a scant literature unfortunately, so our understanding may always be incomplete at best...but we cannot make assumptions of how everyone will respond. It's just not true.



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    Doc-

    I am new to anabolic minds and the use of the forums. I hope my question is correctly placed. I am almost 27 years old and my wife and I recently had a baby--she's ten months now. We are wanting to attempt to get pregnant again sometime in the summer of 2012.

    My wife has been pregnant twice--once ending in miscarriage--and each time we "tried" for approximately a month, maybe two. Originally I had the scare of possibly having difficulty getting her pregnant as I am a survivor of pediatric liver cancer.

    My question is, if I were to start a stack of Anabeta, DAA, and Erase would there likely be any negative effects on sperm count or quality? What sort of supplements should I stay away from?

    Many thanks for the information you provide on the forums.
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    I need to restate this... my lab tests were in and the nurse said everything looked ok a few days ago, but after the doc let me look at the paperwork today, things are still off a little. This is now 6 months after my last shot.

    Total sperm: 75 million (40-300 is 'normal', but average is usually like 180, so I'm slightly low here)
    Motility: 30% (25 is the minimum normal, so I'm on the low side but still normal)
    Morphology: 4% (4% is minimum to be normal, so I'm definitely on the low side here)

    Now maybe there's a chance that this is how I would have been anyway, but I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the sauce...
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    Dr. D...wants your thoughts on taking the basic supplements plus creatine, beta alanine, taurine, and a few fat loss supps while trying for a baby? Any complications that you think could happen? Not sure if I should drop any or not. If you require more info I can PM you my whole supplement list. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lboston View Post
    Doc-

    I am new to anabolic minds and the use of the forums. I hope my question is correctly placed. I am almost 27 years old and my wife and I recently had a baby--she's ten months now. We are wanting to attempt to get pregnant again sometime in the summer of 2012.

    My wife has been pregnant twice--once ending in miscarriage--and each time we "tried" for approximately a month, maybe two. Originally I had the scare of possibly having difficulty getting her pregnant as I am a survivor of pediatric liver cancer.

    My question is, if I were to start a stack of Anabeta, DAA, and Erase would there likely be any negative effects on sperm count or quality? What sort of supplements should I stay away from?

    Many thanks for the information you provide on the forums.
    Well, it is hard to assess. "AnaBeta" is a product featuring Anacyclus pyrethrum DC Extract which in the only rat studies I am aware of were done by one single group (not the best sign); but never evaluated the effects in either humans and never even offered the biochemical analysis (i.e. - serum testosterone, et al...), but instead used the objective measure of sperm count (with no mention of motility) and then behavior characters (i.e. - mount frequency, et al....) which is subjective as hell. There was increase in accessory sex organ volume...and I am uncertain anyone can tell you how this collective data will affect fertility with certainty OR they're lying through their teeth. But, it is possible that anything modulating the HPGA will have impact on what outcomes you see in the fertility arena.

    The authors seem to take a leap of faith saying there is an association between sexual behaviors and spermatogenesis (sperm count and fructose levels in seminal vesicle were markedly increased) AND increased LH/FSH and testosterone, but then didn't provide us with that biochemical analysis which is quintessential to the discussion. Yes, yes...I know; but either motility wasn't mentioned because of sheer lack of funds OR negative results OR fear of results. In any of these scenarios, it is NEEDED to make accurate assessments on a fertility model, which the authors fell well short of discussing and it behooved them to do it in that fashion. Unfortunately, it means I cannot offer a lot of feedback because it would be GUESSING alone here, so I won't.


    With DAA (and hopefully you have opted to use Mucuna); there is accurate biochemical analysis to accompany suggested semen offerings, PLUS not only increased sperm counts BUT also motility (which is unusual) in the setting of any fertility treatment for male factor.


    With "Erase," we're really pushing the envelope to suggest concurrent fertility desires. Androst-3,5-diene-7,17-dione (also known as 3-deoxy-7-oxo-DHEA) WILL impart androgen effect which makes fertility even a more challenging prediction that the previous two. I am not saying you WILL NOT have children on the product (as I have had many also have children on much harsher agents), but there is good possibility - if you are in the majority - that you will potentiate issues should they exist.


    Now - I have had an unusual amount of people using the product "Triazole" from DS and finding their significant others (spouses, girlfriends, mistresses, whatever...) pregnant. This is not to suggest I understand what is happening with it because I DO NOT, nor should it serve as a recommendation; I am just offering you my experience with an agent that you may find useful should AnaBeta and/or Erase not turn out to be for you.


    You mention that you almost thought you were going to have difficulty getting someone pregnant because of pediatric liver cancer; do you feel comfortable expanding upon that? Have you ever had a semen analysis of your own done (usually they are an out-of-pocket expense that can be claimed on taxes as opposed to always covered), as this may give you some data allowing us to offer a better guesstimate as to what these products may do?


    Please keep us abreast of your progress...I think we would all be intrigued to learn of your successes and/or failures with said products. I could only caution against stirring the pot possibly unnecessarily. If you want, maybe use the products for a 1 to 3 month run in the near future and cease all of them with the upcoming spring in preparation for trying once again.



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    Quote Originally Posted by ripped_one View Post
    I need to restate this... my lab tests were in and the nurse said everything looked ok a few days ago, but after the doc let me look at the paperwork today, things are still off a little. This is now 6 months after my last shot.

    Total sperm: 75 million (40-300 is 'normal', but average is usually like 180, so I'm slightly low here)
    Motility: 30% (25 is the minimum normal, so I'm on the low side but still normal)
    Morphology: 4% (4% is minimum to be normal, so I'm definitely on the low side here)

    Now maybe there's a chance that this is how I would have been anyway, but I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the sauce...
    I actually don't care for the motility number at all! We usually like them around 50%.

    Given your number (75 million); it still leaves you with 22.5 million active swimmers; so it isn't horrible from an overt fertility standpoint.

    Are you looking for pregnancy in the near future? Have you had any previous successful pregnancies?


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    Quote Originally Posted by JRC View Post
    Dr. D...wants your thoughts on taking the basic supplements plus creatine, beta alanine, taurine, and a few fat loss supps while trying for a baby? Any complications that you think could happen? Not sure if I should drop any or not. If you require more info I can PM you my whole supplement list. Thanks.
    As for the supplements you mention, there is no data on fertility I am afraid although if not effecting the HPGA, I am going to say likely very little effect. If you use a "fat loss supplement" with thyroidal activity, there is a chance of affecting an alternative axis, but again ... probably very low.

    I could take a look at your entire supplement list if you want, but my answers may be vague as I am almost certain the data won't be there. But like I said, the chances are probably very low.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    I actually don't care for the motility number at all! We usually like them around 50%.

    Given your number (75 million); it still leaves you with 22.5 million active swimmers; so it isn't horrible from an overt fertility standpoint.

    Are you looking for pregnancy in the near future? Have you had any previous successful pregnancies?


    D_
    Couldn't agree more. Did they happen to give you an overall grade of progression? Motility can mean VERY little if you have a low / high grade motility. Often times when I'm performing my IUI's / SA's, if they have a high grade motility, with low concentration, they still often have successful cycles. Much like Dana mentioned, 50% is fine for motility (again the level of progression matters most here), and we have many patients that are teratozoospermic (<4% normal sperm forms) with a chance for potential fertilization to occur.
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    Can you explain this comment further " With "Erase," we're really pushing the envelope to suggest concurrent fertility desires. Androst-3,5-diene-7,17-dione (also known as 3-deoxy-7-oxo-DHEA) WILL impart androgen effect which makes fertility even a more challenging prediction that the previous two. "
    doing my own thang!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    I actually don't care for the motility number at all! We usually like them around 50%.

    Given your number (75 million); it still leaves you with 22.5 million active swimmers; so it isn't horrible from an overt fertility standpoint.

    Are you looking for pregnancy in the near future? Have you had any previous successful pregnancies?


    D_
    The motility number was calculated using the 'strict' method, and the average is usually around 8% I think. The lab considers 4% to be normal, as their grading standard is very high. Using the WHO method it would be closer to 40%.

    I don't have any kids, but looking to have some soon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripped_one View Post
    The motility number was calculated using the 'strict' method, and the average is usually around 8% I think. The lab considers 4% to be normal, as their grading standard is very high. Using the WHO method it would be closer to 40%.

    I don't have any kids, but looking to have some soon.
    Using Krugers Strict, WHO, or any other criteria it won't change the % motility you have. Just whether or not you are considered astheno-zoospermic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripped_one View Post
    The motility number was calculated using the 'strict' method, and the average is usually around 8% I think. The lab considers 4% to be normal, as their grading standard is very high. Using the WHO method it would be closer to 40%.

    I don't have any kids, but looking to have some soon.
    I meant to say morphology.... Not motility... way too early haha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripped_one View Post
    I meant to say morphology.... Not motility... way too early haha.
    Ah, same situation though. Their grading methods will not change your actual #'s, just whether or not you set off any panic values according to their guidelines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew732 View Post
    Can you explain this comment further " With "Erase," we're really pushing the envelope to suggest concurrent fertility desires. Androst-3,5-diene-7,17-dione (also known as 3-deoxy-7-oxo-DHEA) WILL impart androgen effect which makes fertility even a more challenging prediction that the previous two. "
    Sure thing. As the ads would suggest, this product is said to have significant impact on androgens (in particular, it suggests elevating testosterone levels in a pretty significant way; although I will allow 75% of ad copy to account for outlandishness - I see that you are sponsored by the parent company). If testosterone synthesis is supposed to increase the way suggested, it will play into negative feedback systems.

    We do NOT know (hence my comment "challenging prediction") how this product will affect the HPGA and even the company can NOT offer me suggestion to the contrary because the data simply doesn't exist. Now, I am not saying it doesn't do what it says it does - in fact...just the opposite...that if it does, in fact, do what the ads boast, then fertility will subsequently become a question in most men.


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