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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii

    Sure thing. As the ads would suggest, this product is said to have significant impact on androgens (in particular, it suggests elevating testosterone levels in a pretty significant way; although I will allow 75% of ad copy to account for outlandishness - I see that you are sponsored by the parent company). If testosterone synthesis is supposed to increase the way suggested, it will play into negative feedback systems.

    We do NOT know (hence my comment "challenging prediction") how this product will affect the HPGA and even the company can NOT offer me suggestion to the contrary because the data simply doesn't exist. Now, I am not saying it doesn't do what it says it does - in fact...just the opposite...that if it does, in fact, do what the ads boast, then fertility will subsequently become a question in most men.

    D_
    Thank you very much for your time on this topic. With the quality and "health" of sperm in mind, do you happen to know if any of the ingredients/ formula of Universal's Animal Stak and Animal M-Stak could have a negative affect on male fertility and semen quality?

    I just don't want to risk the health of my future children to put on some body mass and with many products there aren't any answers or assumptions to this.

    Are there any natural products that you personally feel are "safe" in this regards and would suggest for use?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Sure thing. As the ads would suggest, this product is said to have significant impact on androgens (in particular, it suggests elevating testosterone levels in a pretty significant way; although I will allow 75% of ad copy to account for outlandishness - I see that you are sponsored by the parent company). If testosterone synthesis is supposed to increase the way suggested, it will play into negative feedback systems.

    We do NOT know (hence my comment "challenging prediction") how this product will affect the HPGA and even the company can NOT offer me suggestion to the contrary because the data simply doesn't exist. Now, I am not saying it doesn't do what it says it does - in fact...just the opposite...that if it does, in fact, do what the ads boast, then fertility will subsequently become a question in most men.


    D_
    I see, couldn't it be said the same for exemestane?
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew732 View Post
    I see, couldn't it be said the same for exemestane?
    I was going to ask this as well about Formestane; considering the steroidal nature of Formestane would it also suffer from these problems? I understand that too high a dose is literally suppressive to testosterone production and defeats the benefits of the low estrogen negative feedback loop...

    How bout with moderate suggested dosing? would fertility be a concern at these typical doses?
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    Hey Dana, did you happen to go to ASRM this year? One of our doctors is going to be on CBS tonight with 2 of our patients discussing fertility and pregnancy in women over 40 years old.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lboston View Post
    Thank you very much for your time on this topic. With the quality and "health" of sperm in mind, do you happen to know if any of the ingredients/ formula of Universal's Animal Stak and Animal M-Stak could have a negative affect on male fertility and semen quality?

    I just don't want to risk the health of my future children to put on some body mass and with many products there aren't any answers or assumptions to this.

    Are there any natural products that you personally feel are "safe" in this regards and would suggest for use?

    Do me a favor... please post the ingredient profile that best approximates your products. I ask because Universal is notorious for having multiple versions of products (perhaps unbeknownst to you) and it would be imperative to see the ingredients in question. A good example from the so-called "Methoxy-Stak" -or, more recently- "M-Stak" which has very unusual components dependent upon the version you have... for instance, the "Triboxybol" - part of some older versions is NOT in the newest ones as far as I understand.

    I presume that you mean..."natural products to increase fertility" when you ask what I feel are "safe" in the fertility domain...correct?


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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew732 View Post
    I see, couldn't it be said the same for exemestane?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    I was going to ask this as well about Formestane; considering the steroidal nature of Formestane would it also suffer from these problems?
    Yes on both accounts; anything at all that alters the HPGA could - at least theoretically - have an impact on fertility if dosed in an equally efficacious manner to approximate most, if not all, studies performed to show benefit on the testosterone scale. If I could say that something is "better" than another...it might be something that increases T and either increases or keeps the same LH while decreasing FSH. At the same time if both LH and FSH are decreased, I have a much bigger problem with it in this (the fertility one) arena.



    I understand that too high a dose is literally suppressive to testosterone production and defeats the benefits of the low estrogen negative feedback loop...

    How bout with moderate suggested dosing? would fertility be a concern at these typical doses?
    Your definition of "typical" or "moderate" dose and mine may be inherently different, so please be more specific so I know what I am referring to when responding.

    In the estrogen dominant person, some estrogen control is probably going to assist the person in conception as opposed to attenuate it; but the problem is - most men do NOT get baseline lab work before embarking on supplementation and that's one very unfortunate thing. One thing that you must NOT lose sight of is that estrogen is vital to male fertility (usually at the level of ER-alpha) -- specifically to sperm count and quality (its activity is responsible for maintaining epithelial cytoarchitecture in efferent ductules and the reabsorption of fluid for concentrating sperm in the head of the epididymis), so the complete annhilation of estrogen could actually be far worse to the picture in a non-estrogen dominant profile.

    This is a much more complex subject area (Estrogen and fertility) than I think people give credit sometimes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGabe24 View Post
    Hey Dana, did you happen to go to ASRM this year?
    Unfortunately, I was very limited in my conference attendance this year and did not attend.

    I even missed some of the more prominent meetings I would normally attend: ENDO, ADA, CMHC, ACSM, ISSN, NSCA (just very hard scheduling time this year)


    One of our doctors is going to be on CBS tonight with 2 of our patients discussing fertility and pregnancy in women over 40 years old.
    I don't tend to watch a lot of TV, any follow-up links on-line, etc...


    D_
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Do me a favor... please post the ingredient profile that best approximates your products. I ask because Universal is notorious for having multiple versions of products (perhaps unbeknownst to you) and it would be imperative to see the ingredients in question. A good example from the so-called "Methoxy-Stak" -or, more recently- "M-Stak" which has very unusual components dependent upon the version you have... for instance, the "Triboxybol" - part of some older versions is NOT in the newest ones as far as I understand.

    I presume that you mean..."natural products to increase fertility" when you ask what I feel are "safe" in the fertility domain...correct?


    D_
    The ingredients for the Animal M-Stak:

    Amount Per Serving:
    Natural Flavone/Sterone Complex 750mg
    Ecdysterone
    5-Methyl-7-Methoxyisoflavone
    Ajuga Turkestanica Extract (Turkesterone)
    Sitosterol
    Anti-Catabolic Amino Complex 3000mg L-Leucine
    Leucine Alpha Ketoglutarate (AKG)
    Leucine Ethyl Ester
    L-Isoleucine
    L-Valine
    L-Taurine
    Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALC)

    Anabolic Adaptogen Complex 1000mg
    Muira Puama
    Kudzu Extract (Isoflavones)
    Safed Musli
    Rhodiola Rosea Extract (Rosavins)

    Insulin Potentiating Complex 500mg
    4-Hydroxyisoleucine
    Banana Leaf Extract (1-3% Colosolic Acid)
    Cinnulin PF
    K-R-Alpha Lipoic Acid (K-R-ALA)

    M Factor Complex 500mg
    Ginger Root Extract (Gingerols, Shaogols)
    6,7-Dihydroxybergmottin
    Bioperine

    Energy Complex 500mg
    (as L-valine)
    Methylxanthine Complex (Caffeine, Theobromine, Theophylline)
    Evodiamine

    Other Ingredients:
    Methylxanthine Complex (50% kola nut extract, 22% guarana extract), fenugreek extract, cyanotis vaga extract, evodiae fructus extract, grapefruit extract, cinnamon root extract, gelatin, dicalcium phosphate, whey (milk), microcrystalline cellulose, titanium dioxide, stearic acid, magnesium stearate, FD&C Blue #1, FD&C Red #40.Bioperine is Piper nigrum extract standardized for a minimum of 95% piperine

    The ingredients for the Animal Stak:

    Amount Per Serving:

    Vitamin C: 100mg
    Vitamin B6: 10.5mg
    Magnesium: 450mg
    Zinc: 30mg
    Chromium: 100mcg

    Natural Test Complex:
    longjack extract complex: 250mg
    avena sativa extract: 250mg
    tribulus extract complex: 500mg

    Growth Hormone Secretagogues:
    mucuna pruriens extract: 250mg
    alpha glycerylphosphorylcholine: 50mg

    Vasodilator Complex: 750mg
    arginine alpha-ketoglutarate
    arginine ketoisocaproate

    Aromatase Inhibitors:
    calcium d-glucarate: 100mg
    diindolymethane: 100mg

    DHT Blockers:
    -sitosterol: 250mg
    saw palmetto extract: 200mg
    pygenum africanum: 50mg

    Cortisol Inhibitor Complex: 300mg
    acetyl- l-carnitine
    phosphatidylserine

    Liver Detoxifiers:
    lysophosphatidylcholine: 50mg
    milk thistle extract: 200mg

    Other ingredients:
    Gelatin, dicalcium phosphate, whey, lecithin, microscrystallinr cellulose, stearic acid, and magnesium stearate.

    Longjack Extract Complex is a proprietary blend of Eurycoma Longifolia, including patented LJ100 standardized for 28% bioactive glycopeptide compounds and 40% glycosaponins.

    I am not so much interested in products that "increase fertility", as I do not think that is a problem for myself, but am more concerned about taking any product that would adversely affect male fertility.

    Do you have any recommendations of natural t-boosters that you feel would not adversely affect fertility and are affective for adding lean body mass?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    As for the supplements you mention, there is no data on fertility I am afraid although if not effecting the HPGA, I am going to say likely very little effect. If you use a "fat loss supplement" with thyroidal activity, there is a chance of affecting an alternative axis, but again ... probably very low.

    I could take a look at your entire supplement list if you want, but my answers may be vague as I am almost certain the data won't be there. But like I said, the chances are probably very low.


    D_
    Thanks Dr. D! Working on my list right now, will send you a PM when finished.
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    My wife and I went in for Iui today, and my sperm count was 198 million, with 82% motility. Total washed was 34.4 million, with 93% motility and grade 4. Not sure what changed, but I guess the extra 6 weeks helped. Damn near 8 months after finishing a long cycle to get back to normal, even with nolva, letro, and hmg injects. Sheesh.
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    Remember ... only takes 1 out if those million and wish you guys the best of luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lboston View Post
    The ingredients for the Animal M-Stak:

    Amount Per Serving:
    Natural Flavone/Sterone Complex 750mg
    Ecdysterone
    5-Methyl-7-Methoxyisoflavone
    Ajuga Turkestanica Extract (Turkesterone)
    Sitosterol
    Anti-Catabolic Amino Complex 3000mg L-Leucine
    Leucine Alpha Ketoglutarate (AKG)
    Leucine Ethyl Ester
    L-Isoleucine
    L-Valine
    L-Taurine
    Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALC)

    Anabolic Adaptogen Complex 1000mg
    Muira Puama
    Kudzu Extract (Isoflavones)
    Safed Musli
    Rhodiola Rosea Extract (Rosavins)

    Insulin Potentiating Complex 500mg
    4-Hydroxyisoleucine
    Banana Leaf Extract (1-3% Colosolic Acid)
    Cinnulin PF
    K-R-Alpha Lipoic Acid (K-R-ALA)

    M Factor Complex 500mg
    Ginger Root Extract (Gingerols, Shaogols)
    6,7-Dihydroxybergmottin
    Bioperine

    Energy Complex 500mg
    (as L-valine)
    Methylxanthine Complex (Caffeine, Theobromine, Theophylline)
    Evodiamine

    Other Ingredients:
    Methylxanthine Complex (50% kola nut extract, 22% guarana extract), fenugreek extract, cyanotis vaga extract, evodiae fructus extract, grapefruit extract, cinnamon root extract, gelatin, dicalcium phosphate, whey (milk), microcrystalline cellulose, titanium dioxide, stearic acid, magnesium stearate, FD&C Blue #1, FD&C Red #40.Bioperine is Piper nigrum extract standardized for a minimum of 95% piperine

    The ingredients for the Animal Stak:

    Amount Per Serving:

    Vitamin C: 100mg
    Vitamin B6: 10.5mg
    Magnesium: 450mg
    Zinc: 30mg
    Chromium: 100mcg

    Natural Test Complex:
    longjack extract complex: 250mg
    avena sativa extract: 250mg
    tribulus extract complex: 500mg

    Growth Hormone Secretagogues:
    mucuna pruriens extract: 250mg
    alpha glycerylphosphorylcholine: 50mg

    Vasodilator Complex: 750mg
    arginine alpha-ketoglutarate
    arginine ketoisocaproate

    Aromatase Inhibitors:
    calcium d-glucarate: 100mg
    diindolymethane: 100mg

    DHT Blockers:
    -sitosterol: 250mg
    saw palmetto extract: 200mg
    pygenum africanum: 50mg

    Cortisol Inhibitor Complex: 300mg
    acetyl- l-carnitine
    phosphatidylserine

    Liver Detoxifiers:
    lysophosphatidylcholine: 50mg
    milk thistle extract: 200mg

    Other ingredients:
    Gelatin, dicalcium phosphate, whey, lecithin, microscrystallinr cellulose, stearic acid, and magnesium stearate.

    Longjack Extract Complex is a proprietary blend of Eurycoma Longifolia, including patented LJ100 standardized for 28% bioactive glycopeptide compounds and 40% glycosaponins.

    I am not so much interested in products that "increase fertility", as I do not think that is a problem for myself, but am more concerned about taking any product that would adversely affect male fertility.

    Do you have any recommendations of natural t-boosters that you feel would not adversely affect fertility and are affective for adding lean body mass?
    Omigod! There is SO MUCH in these supplements, I would be hard pressed given the degree of interaction with many herbals and semen quality that something doesn't take effect...my only hope is that the quantities are so small because they kitchen-sinked it that it would be no more than wallet-slimming versus anything else.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ripped_one View Post
    My wife and I went in for Iui today, and my sperm count was 198 million, with 82% motility. Total washed was 34.4 million, with 93% motility and grade 4. Not sure what changed, but I guess the extra 6 weeks helped. Damn near 8 months after finishing a long cycle to get back to normal, even with nolva, letro, and hmg injects. Sheesh.
    Wow - interesting that you still went to IUI. What reasoning did you have to not expect spontaneous insemination with these numbers? I don't know that IUI added a lot of value to this equation (compared with spontaneous). Of course, fertility people might tell you different but success rates with IUI are something to yawn at in most instances IMO.

    D_
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    Interesting For Motility Woes


    The antioxidant hormone melatonin may play a role in the production of healthy sperm, according to a new study. Previous research has shown that sperm contain melatonin and have melatonin membrane receptors, yet the relationship between melatonin and sperm health had not yet been determined. The American Society for Reproductive Medicine states that one-third of infertility cases among couples are due to male factors.

    In this study, sperm from 52 men with impaired fertility was examined. The sperm was evaluated for concentration, motility and morphology (structure). In addition, the subjects were evaluated for urinary 6-sulfatoxy-melatonin and urinary total antioxidant capacity to determine if there was a correlation between the sperm parameters evaluated and melatonin and antioxidant status. In vitro, the sperm was exposed to melatonin and evaluated for changes in motility.

    The results of the study showed that increased urinary levels of 6-sulfatoxy-melatonin and total antioxidant capacity correlated with increased sperm concentration, motility and improved morphology. In vitro, sperm treated with melatonin for 30 minutes showed increased sperm motility and an increase in the percentage of rapidly swimming cells.

    The study concluded that melatonin improves semen quality. Based on the results of this research, it is likely that this unique antioxidant hormone plays a role in supporting sexual and reproductive health.

    Reference:

    Ortiz A, Espino J, Bejarano I, Lozano GM, Monllor F, García JF, Pariente JA, Rodríguez AB. High endogenous melatonin concentrations enhance sperm quality and short-term in vitro exposure to melatonin improves aspects of sperm motility. J Pineal Res. 2010 Oct 21. Published Online Ahead of Print.



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    Good read. I take melatonin a few times a week to help with sleeping so this is a bonus....especially since me and my wife are looking to have a child next year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Wow - interesting that you still went to IUI. What reasoning did you have to not expect spontaneous insemination with these numbers? I don't know that IUI added a lot of value to this equation (compared with spontaneous). Of course, fertility people might tell you different but success rates with IUI are something to yawn at in most instances IMO.

    D_
    Well, we did the IUI, then had sex a couple of times when we went home, then a couple of times a day for the next two days. Result? No pregnancy. Figured why not try everything, as she has to do injections to grow the egg, and the least we could do was try to maximize the chances.

    We are taking a break this month (holidays, spending a month in Europe for vacation and business, etc), but next month we are going to try again. This time we are goign to try to grow at least 3 eggs instead of 1, so our chances go up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    The antioxidant hormone melatonin may play a role in the production of healthy sperm, according to a new study. Previous research has shown that sperm contain melatonin and have melatonin membrane receptors, yet the relationship between melatonin and sperm health had not yet been determined. The American Society for Reproductive Medicine states that one-third of infertility cases among couples are due to male factors.

    In this study, sperm from 52 men with impaired fertility was examined. The sperm was evaluated for concentration, motility and morphology (structure). In addition, the subjects were evaluated for urinary 6-sulfatoxy-melatonin and urinary total antioxidant capacity to determine if there was a correlation between the sperm parameters evaluated and melatonin and antioxidant status. In vitro, the sperm was exposed to melatonin and evaluated for changes in motility.

    The results of the study showed that increased urinary levels of 6-sulfatoxy-melatonin and total antioxidant capacity correlated with increased sperm concentration, motility and improved morphology. In vitro, sperm treated with melatonin for 30 minutes showed increased sperm motility and an increase in the percentage of rapidly swimming cells.

    The study concluded that melatonin improves semen quality. Based on the results of this research, it is likely that this unique antioxidant hormone plays a role in supporting sexual and reproductive health.

    Reference:

    Ortiz A, Espino J, Bejarano I, Lozano GM, Monllor F, García JF, Pariente JA, Rodríguez AB. High endogenous melatonin concentrations enhance sperm quality and short-term in vitro exposure to melatonin improves aspects of sperm motility. J Pineal Res. 2010 Oct 21. Published Online Ahead of Print.



    D_
    I'll get back on that melatonin tonight!
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    i would like to see a fertility study on something like Sustain alpha + IGF 2 + DAA
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    this site claims that melatonin has the opposite affect

    http://www.melatoninfaq.com/melatonin-side-effects/
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    Hey Doc, I have the go-ahead to submit my first proposal to perform some of my own research in the andrology lab I work at in NJ. I wanted to run by my ideas with you before I submit them, if you have a sec to PM me, and we can discuss them a little, I'd really appreciate it!

    The parameters I'm focusing on will be changes in motility and viability (eosin stains / hypoosmotic swelling test) via reduction of ROS in the microenvironment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Wow - interesting that you still went to IUI. What reasoning did you have to not expect spontaneous insemination with these numbers? I don't know that IUI added a lot of value to this equation (compared with spontaneous). Of course, fertility people might tell you different but success rates with IUI are something to yawn at in most instances IMO.

    D_
    In certain cases IUI's may help improve pregnancy as opposed to IC, I.E. viscous cervical mucus / seminal plasma, gels/debris, leukocytes, agglutination/clumping....which would all be washed allowing for a more concentrated sample to be inseminated.

    Simply based on my experience, as I've had patients come in with samples that would predictably never lead to a spontaneous pregnancy outcome, and had success. I do agree though, with his numbers it would have been hard to justify IUI's, the only other thng I can believe is it may have been on his partners end, malformed uterus, endometriosis, cerv stenosis, etc. etc.? I am assuming its not PCOS or something hormonally related cause that would be spotted in her initial BW evals. I'd like to believe they didnt do it just for the $$...maybe that's just wishful/naive thinking on my part heh
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    Good thread,bump for us who want kids.I actually wanted one last night,did the deed, and hope all is good. Ive been taking mucuna myself,my loads are pretty heavy compared to prior loads. Im just worried about the additive titanium dioxide in my vitamins. but then ,I eat really clean as does my wife.
  

  
 

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