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  1. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    We also found that pretreatment with combined LA and ALC increased mitochondrial biogenesis and decreased production of reactive oxygen species through the up-regulation of the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma coactivator 1alpha as a possible underlying mechanism.
    Atrogin-1 affects muscle protein synthesis and degradation when energy metabolism is impaired by the antidiabetes drug berberine.

    Abstract
    OBJECTIVE:
    Defects in insulin/IGF-1 signaling stimulate muscle protein loss by suppressing protein synthesis and increasing protein degradation. Since an herbal compound, berberine, lowers blood levels of glucose and lipids, we proposed that it would improve insulin/IGF-1 signaling, blocking muscle protein losses.
    RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS:
    We evaluated whether berberine ameliorates muscle atrophy in db/db mice, a model of type 2 diabetes, by measuring protein synthesis and degradation in muscles of normal and db/db mice treated with or without berberine. We also examined mechanisms for berberine-induced changes in muscle protein metabolism.
    RESULTS:
    Berberine administration decreased protein synthesis and increased degradation in muscles of normal and db/db mice. The protein catabolic mechanism depended on berberine-stimulated expression of the E3 ubiquitin ligase, atrogin-1. Atrogin-1 not only increased proteolysis but also reduced protein synthesis by mechanisms that were independent of decreased phosphorylation of Akt or forkhead transcription factors. Impaired protein synthesis was dependent on a reduction in eIF3-f, an essential regulator of protein synthesis. Berberine impaired energy metabolism, activating AMP-activated protein kinase and providing an alternative mechanism for the stimulation of atrogin-1 expression. When we increased mitochondrial biogenesis by expressing peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma coactivator-1alpha, berberine-induced changes in muscle protein metabolism were prevented.
    CONCLUSIONS:
    Berberine impairs muscle metabolism by two novel mechanisms. It impairs mitochonidrial function stimulating the expression of atrogin-1 without affecting phosphorylation of forkhead transcription factors. The increase in atrogin-1 not only stimulated protein degradation but also suppressed protein synthesis, causing muscle atrophy.


    I found this to be interesting with GDAs being so popular.


  2. I am actually aware of this study and always keep it in the back of my mind when evaluating usage of berberine. While I haven't looked far enough into it to see if we can extrapolate data from healthy rats (note that normal rats also suffered) to healthy humans, I would still co-administer Na-R-ALA with berberine irrespective of berberine's potential side effects. It is also why, despite berberine's numerous other benefits on overall health, I would never recommend it unless presented in the context of a carb-laden cheat meal in which inhibiting carbohydrate absorption is the goal.
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  3. I agree, and I only plan on using Berberine on high carb meals(trying out SLINtropin as I was hooked up with a couple bottles). I decided to do some research(very interesting stuff with many benefits) and remembered your post when coming across this. Irony.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    I am actually aware of this study and always keep it in the back of my mind when evaluating usage of berberine. While I haven't looked far enough into it to see if we can extrapolate data from healthy rats (note that normal rats also suffered) to healthy humans, I would still co-administer Na-R-ALA with berberine irrespective of berberine's potential side effects. It is also why, despite berberine's numerous other benefits on overall health, I would never recommend it unless presented in the context of a carb-laden cheat meal in which inhibiting carbohydrate absorption is the goal.
    Interesting as I heard many suggesting taking it before bed and Ina. Fasted state to take advantage of some PPar fat burning.
    RecoverBro ELITE

  5. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag

    Interesting as I heard many suggesting taking it before bed and Ina. Fasted state to take advantage of some PPar fat burning.
    I've heard people say the same of other GDAs and I don't get it.
    Training Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/271254-what-aw-hell.html
    "Jackie Treehorn treats objects like woman man."
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  6. I searched for what mattrag may be talking about and I found a write-up on why anabolic pump should be taken preworkout. I'll comment later, but the extrapolations and physiological significance are....iffy, to put it nicely.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    I searched for what mattrag may be talking about and I found a write-up on why anabolic pump should be taken preworkout. I'll comment later, but the extrapolations and physiological significance are....iffy, to put it nicely.
    Thanks bro. You da man.
    RecoverBro ELITE
  8. AnabolicMinds Site Rep
    Spaniard's Avatar

    So everyone pretty much agrees on this thread that ALCAR and LCLT should be staples along with another Carnitine source starting with a P... Maybe PLCAR...? Something along those lines.

    Is there a supplement containing all 3 or is everyone individually buying these?

    I'm looking at getting those along with Na-R-Ala... Any brand recommendations of such supps that are being used would be great.

    Thank you to the Doc,Coop and all others contributing to this thread! I've learned a lot!
    Founder & Owner
    Aspire. Train. Perform. Nutrition
    "More than a supplement company."

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Dvaldez5 View Post
    So everyone pretty much agrees on this thread that ALCAR and LCLT should be staples along with another Carnitine source starting with a P... Maybe PLCAR...? Something along those lines.

    Is there a supplement containing all 3 or is everyone individually buying these?

    I'm looking at getting those along with Na-R-Ala... Any brand recommendations of such supps that are being used would be great.

    Thank you to the Doc,Coop and all others contributing to this thread! I've learned a lot!
    I can't speak for Dr. Houser, but I think they should be staples, with ALCAR and LCLT at the forefront and PLCAR a close second.

    No supplement that I know of doses all 3 at 2g/day/

    Use Geronova-licensed Na-R-ALA here on NP.

  10. Been trying out creatinol-o-phosphate(prototype version) since Doc recommends it. Been taking 2gr. before work out and planned on upping it to 6 throughout the day. With only 2g. Im getting bad explosive **** syndrome, and I rarely get that with supplements. Wondering if I can take it different somehow to avoid it?

  11. Quote Originally Posted by keyser View Post
    Been trying out creatinol-o-phosphate(prototype version) since Doc recommends it. Been taking 2gr. before work out and planned on upping it to 6 throughout the day. With only 2g. Im getting bad explosive **** syndrome, and I rarely get that with supplements. Wondering if I can take it different somehow to avoid it?

    Spread out the doses..

  12. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I searched for what mattrag may be talking about and I found a write-up on why anabolic pump should be taken preworkout. I'll comment later, but the extrapolations and physiological significance are....iffy, to put it nicely.
    Please let me know when you do post this comment
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  13. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Please let me know when you do post this comment
    I will. Until then, I encourage you to look up the primary MOA of berberine because it is often misconstrued.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I will. Until then, I encourage you to look up the primary MOA of berberine because it is often misconstrued.
    Perhaps I will start a berberine thread as it seems there is some potential for some good discussion
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  15. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh

    Perhaps I will start a berberine thread as it seems there is some potential for some good discussion
    Start here

    http://examine.com/supplements/Berberine/
    Training Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/271254-what-aw-hell.html
    "Jackie Treehorn treats objects like woman man."

  16. Cortisol control on a healthy individual wont translate into fat loss anyway
    Controlled Labs Warder
    Powercage [at] controlledlabs.com

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Powercage
    Cortisol control on a healthy individual wont translate into fat loss anyway
    Could you expand on this please?

    Does that mean that products like LX, Abliderate etc have no effect? That would go against any positive feedback given by healthy individuals.

    Just curious.

  18. pyrroloquinoline quinone a close to top 10?

    What supplements might help with parkinsons disease(uncle has it)? Q10, mucuna, pyrroquinoline.. anything else?

  19. Quote Originally Posted by keyser View Post
    pyrroloquinoline quinone a close to top 10?

    What supplements might help with parkinsons disease(uncle has it)? Q10, mucuna, pyrroquinoline.. anything else?
    cooper posted a journal article in a different thread (or was this one, I forget) detailing positive effects from dosing ALCAR and na-R-ALA together in patients with Parkinsons. Sorry I can't recall the details. Worth mentioning is that according to his research you should dose na-R-ALA about 30 minutes before ALCAR to get the most benefit from the combo since the two dosed together can interact with one another to make it less effective.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post
    Cortisol control on a healthy individual wont translate into fat loss anyway
    I agree if that healthy individual does not strenuously exercising on a regular basis however if the individual is exercising regularly, especially for periods longer than an hour and to failure, i think cortisol control can be beneficial

  21. Quote Originally Posted by ka0tik View Post
    I agree if that healthy individual does not strenuously exercising on a regular basis however if the individual is exercising regularly, especially for periods longer than an hour and to failure, i think cortisol control can be beneficial
    He said for fat loss. Cortisol control actually lowers lipolysis.

    That said, in the big picture, it should lower fat reserves and spare muscle. Furthermore, 7-keto's effects are far from limited to cortisol.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    He said for fat loss. Cortisol control actually lowers lipolysis.

    That said, in the big picture, it should lower fat reserves and spare muscle. Furthermore, 7-keto's effects are far from limited to cortisol.
    Also known to lighten wallets

  23. Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia View Post
    cooper posted a journal article in a different thread (or was this one, I forget) detailing positive effects from dosing ALCAR and na-R-ALA together in patients with Parkinsons. Sorry I can't recall the details. Worth mentioning is that according to his research you should dose na-R-ALA about 30 minutes before ALCAR to get the most benefit from the combo since the two dosed together can interact with one another to make it less effective.

  24. Ha ha ha that's also correct buddy....

  25. I'm not sure about taking only 500mg vitamin c at a time. I took 1000mg tabs for at least a few months and never had any problem. Where is the proof that 1000mg is pro-oxident?. If it is then how come companies still sell 1000mg tabs?. I've read where people have taking much more than 1000mg at a time to help clear up colds and even cure serious sickness. Just google mega dosing vitamin c.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I'm not sure about taking only 500mg vitamin c at a time. I took 1000mg tabs for at least a few months and never had any problem. Where is the proof that 1000mg is pro-oxident?. If it is then how come companies still sell 1000mg tabs?. I've read where people have taking much more than 1000mg at a time to help clear up colds and even cure serious sickness. Just google mega dosing vitamin c.
    To be clear, you would never "notice" a problem from pro-oxidation. While I don't see much evidence for vitamin C pro-oxidation besides dose-response curve extrapolations, the bottom line is that if you're supplementing over 500mg in one sitting, you are wasting your vitamin C, as the plasma saturation dose is indeed 500mg (http://www.pl.barc.usda.gov/downloads/jp28.pdf).

    Companies are stupid. People are stupid.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    To be clear, you would never "notice" a problem from pro-oxidation. While I don't see much evidence for vitamin C pro-oxidation besides dose-response curve extrapolations, the bottom line is that if you're supplementing over 500mg in one sitting, you are wasting your vitamin C, as the plasma saturation dose is indeed 500mg (http://www.pl.barc.usda.gov/downloads/jp28.pdf).

    Companies are stupid. People are stupid.

    Plasma Saturation?.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone

    Plasma Saturation?.
    You should check the link.

    Good link Coop

    Edit: it is talking about total saturation(intracellular and extracellular plasma levels[part of blood where blood cells are suspended])
    Training Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/271254-what-aw-hell.html
    "Jackie Treehorn treats objects like woman man."

  29. Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Plasma Saturation?.
    Google "blood plasma."

  30. meh....depends on who's you use. 7-keto can boost immune system (increases IL-2 and WBCs to strengthen immune defenses)

    Many have reported avoiding the annual flu over the winter time just from adding an efficacious form of 7-keto to the mix

    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    7-Keto is also known to lighten wallets
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