Top 10 Supplements

[dinoiii]

Dr. Houser was recently asked on his FB page what he thought were the top 10 "must haves" - here was his response...

Joe Mista: "Hey Dana as a whole what are your top 10 (or more) favorite vitamins, minerals, etc...?"

Dr. Houser: "I thought of the first 10 things that would come to mind and this is the "off-the-top-of-my-head can't be without Top 10." There are only a couple true ergogenic aids I might include in this group / more stuff here is probably "essential" ...elements":

10. Selenium (if male, this is the equivalent to folic acid for females; but imperative for thyroid functioning and proper metabolism...quintessential and often overlooked);

9. Creatine (MCC or Creatine Orotate preferred);

8. Curcumin (anti-inflammatory/pro-testosterone, can be found in every guy's cupboard I hope...understand bioavailability is poor, so take more of it!!!!);

7. Magnesium (100s of enzymatic processes in the body);

6. L-carnitine (all forms, but LOVE LCLT/PLC/ALCAR combo);

5. Leucine (NOT all BCAAs; leucine alone is overlooked and the only sole ketogenic BCAA);

4. Beta-alanine (has supplanted creatine as the true necessity when it comes to anti-oxidant prowess and ergogenic value...its unmatched);

3. CoQ10 (multi-function strikes again - can change type I muscle fibers to type IIs; can protect the heart; act as an antioxidant, etc...);

2. Vitamins C and D (Vit C at 500 mg with EVERY meal through the day; even eating is an oxidative process. NO MORE than 500mg so abort pills that contain 1000 mg or whatever...they actually turn PRO-oxidant. Also, Vit C is vital at promoting collagen resynthesis. Vitamin D. What can I say? Actually, what can I not?);

1. B Complex (not flashy and can be taken with Vit C at all meals, but given its multitude of functions and co-factor offering, I wouldn't dream of going without it)."



I am curious what your Top 10 lists might look like?


D_

 

[fadi]

CoQ10 can change fiber type? is it significant in any way?

 

[AutoKal47]

Sounds more like 10 health oriented sups (more than bb oriented)

Top 10 - from the least essential to the one you would have to take out of my cold dead hands -
for me would probably be

Creatine (Creapure) - while I don't really respond so much to creatine, is indeed a staple
Lean Xtreme - best non-stim fat burner that I've tried to far
Bulk pure Beta Alanine - real performance enhancer, makes a big difference
Lit-Up - best stim prewo I've tried so far AND best DAA based formula
E-bol - give me ridiculously good results on everything, strength, recomp, mood, size, endurance..

then the essential, without these anything else would make lil sense:

Multivitamin
Fish Oil
Caffeine - yes caffeine, I don't actually think I could function without it, but that's just me.
Whey Isolate
BCAA

at least at the moment that'd be my list. It can change, it did in past, I wouldn't be surprised
if it will again. Products get better, research gets better, goals change.. who knows

 

[Royd The Noyd]

CoQ10 can change fiber type? is it significant in any way?

It was shown too in older men.

Free Radic Res. 2002 Apr;36(4):445-53

Cellular redox activity of coenzyme Q10: effect of CoQ10 supplementation on human skeletal muscle.

Linnane AW, Kopsidas G, Zhang C, Yarovaya N, Kovalenko S, Papakostopoulos P, Eastwood H, Graves S, Richardson M.



Centre for Molecular Biology and Medicine, Epworth Medical Centre, Richmond, Australia. [email protected]



In this paper, we report results obtained from a continuing clinical trial on the effect of coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) administration on human vastus lateralis (quadriceps) skeletal muscle. Muscle samples, obtained from aged individuals receiving placebo or CoQ10 supplementation (300mg per day for four weeks prior to hip replacement surgery) were analysed for changes in gene and protein expression and in muscle fibre type composition. Microarray analysis (Affymetrix U95A human oligonucleotide array) using a change in gene expression of 1.8-fold or greater as a cutoff point, demonstrated that a total of 115 genes were differentially expressed in six subject comparisons. In the CoQ10-treated subjects, 47 genes were up-regulated and 68 down-regulated in comparison with placebo-treated subjects. Restriction fragment differential display analysis showed that over 600 fragments were differentially expressed using a 2.0-fold or greater change in expression as a cutoff point. Proteome analysis revealed that, of the high abundance muscle proteins detected (2,086 +/- 115), the expression of 174 proteins was induced by CoQ10 while 77 proteins were repressed by CoQ10 supplementation. Muscle fibre types were also affected by CoQ10 treatment; CoQ10-treated individuals showed a lower proportion of type I (slow twitch) fibres and a higher proportion of type IIb (fast twitch) fibres, compared to age-matched placebo-treated subjects. The data suggests that CoQ10 treatment can act to influence the fibre type composition towards the fibre type profile generally found in younger individuals. Our results led us to the conclusion that coenzyme Q10 is a gene regulator and consequently has wide-ranging effects on over-all tissue metabolism. We develop a comprehensive hypothesis that CoQ10 plays a major role in the determination of membrane potential of many, if not all, sub-cellular membrane systems and that H2O2 arising from the activities of CoQ10 acts as a second messenger for the modulation of gene expression and cellular metabolism.

It also seems to play a role in skeletal muscle lipid metabolism. Especially when combined with a carnitine source. I also made this post a while back on another forum. Maybe Dinoiii can debunk my hypothesis:

Here is a correlation for thought.



- Blacks have significantly higher coq10 plasma concentrations.

- Blacks "express the "D" allelle with a much greater frequency then whites"

- In regards to ACE expression those with the D/D phenotype have more type II muscle fibers



Referencing the following materials...

Clin Chim Acta. 2003 Jun;332(1-2):123-32.

Plasma coenzyme Q10 reference intervals, but not redox status, are affected by gender and race in self-reported healthy adults.

Miles MV, Horn PS, Morrison JA, Tang PH, DeGrauw T, Pesce AJ.



Division of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine, Department of Pediatrics, Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center, 3333 Burnet Avenue, Cincinnati, OH 45229-3030, USA. [email protected]





Abstract

BACKGROUND: Abnormal concentrations of coenzyme Q(10) have been reported in many patient groups, including certain cardiovascular, neurological, hematological, neoplastic, renal, and metabolic diseases. However, controls in these studies are often limited in number, poorly screened, and inadequately evaluated statistically. The purpose of this study is to determine the reference intervals of plasma concentrations of ubiquinone-10, ubiquinol-10, and total coenzyme Q(10) for self-reported healthy adults.



METHODS: Adults (n=148), who were participants in the Princeton Prevalence Follow-up Study, were identified as healthy by questionnaire. Lipid profiles, ubiquinone-10, ubiquinol-10, and total coenzyme Q(10) concentrations were measured in plasma. The method used to determine the reference intervals is a procedure incorporating outlier detection followed by robust point estimates of the appropriate quantiles.



RESULTS: Significant differences between males and females were present for ubiquinol-10 and total coenzyme Q(10). Blacks had significantly higher Q(10) measures than whites in all cases except for the ubiquinol-10/total Q(10) fraction.



CONCLUSIONS: The fraction of ubiquinol-10/total coenzyme Q(10) is a tightly regulated measure in self-reported healthy adults, and is independent of sex and racial differences. Different reference intervals for certain coenzyme Q(10) measures may need to be established based upon sex and racial characteristics.





PMID: 12763289 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

From Kelly's Skinny Fat Ecto Series

[font="Verdana, sans-serif"]

ACE

One other factor that likely separates the 'ripped', lean and strong ecto from that of the skinny-fact ecto is the angiotensin converting enzyme. Angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE) contributes to blood flow, blood pressure, vascularity, glycogen storage, and host of other things. In humans ACE _expression is dependent on what's called insertion (I) or deletion (D) genes. Three phenotypes exist, I/I, I/D and D/D.



One specific ACE genotype, called II (insertion/insertion), is linked towards performance in aerobic events and has a cardioprotective effect. Those with the II ACE gene have less ACE, tend towards lower blood pressure, more Type I fiber, higher degree of vascularization, higher levels of interstitial glucose, less visceral fat accumulation and more subcutaneous fat accumulation. This is good if you want to be a marathon runner or live to be 100. Not so good if you wan to be a fast twitch dominant strength athlete or build a lot of muscle.



Those at the opposite end of the spectrum would have the DD (deletion/deletion) ACE gene and have more ACE. They have poorer endurance oriented performance but greater muscular strength and muscular hypertrophy, more type II fiber and more cellular glucose stores. They also appear to have a much greater risk of heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, and a lean towards visceral fat accumulation. (17,18)



The distribution of these phenotypes among Caucasian males is 25% II , 50% ID and 25% DD. That means if you fall in the former or latter category, you have a genetic tendency to become better at endurance or strength sports. (16)



[/font]

[font="Verdana, sans-serif"]Not all that surprisingly, african americans tend to express the "D" allele with a much greater frequency then whites. (19) Those with more of a natural soft marathon runner type physique such as our skinny ecto would likely lean towards the opposite "I" allele.[/font]

 

[dinoiii]

Sounds more like 10 health oriented sups (more than bb oriented)

It is VERY interesting to me that people somehow think "bodybuilding" is apparently "unhealthy."

As bodybuilders, you should be abassadors of health actually. Keep in mind, without the top 10 "health" supplements, you wouldn't be here to bask in your apparent sveltness.

It's the same as you rationalize "essentials" - these are health related, but you don't view them as mutually exclusive, or at least I hope you wouldn't!

Top 10 - from the least essential to the one you would have to take out of my cold dead hands -
for me would probably be

Creatine (Creapure) - while I don't really respond so much to creatine, is indeed a staple
Lean Xtreme - best non-stim fat burner that I've tried to far
Bulk pure Beta Alanine - real performance enhancer, makes a big difference
Lit-Up - best stim prewo I've tried so far AND best DAA based formula
E-bol - give me ridiculously good results on everything, strength, recomp, mood, size, endurance..

I think I included Creatine and Beta-Alanine, didn't I? That said - Top 10 should be the "things you wouldn't live without," at least, that's what I would put at top.

I don't have qualms with what you are saying are your Top ergogenic aids with the exception of perhaps "E-bol" however, I suppose even placebo has its role when talking "ergogenesis."

Lastly, I don't support products per se as much as I do ingredients. I am as objective as it comes. If your product has my essential element in it, so be it. Most can't dose them efficaciously if that is the case anyway and then it becomes a moot point.

then the essential, without these anything else would make lil sense:

Multivitamin
Fish Oil
Caffeine - yes caffeine, I don't actually think I could function without it, but that's just me.
Whey Isolate
BCAA

at least at the moment that'd be my list. It can change, it did in past, I wouldn't be surprised
if it will again. Products get better, research gets better, goals change.. who knows

My reasons to not include some of those elements in my list of "Top 10" - in other words, "if I only had ten chances to pick supplemental agents, what would they be?"

A word on whey and BCAA....

Why I didn't include whey protein in my "Top 10" ... it's certainly not that I would ever suggest it to be a "bad" supplement (don't confuse the two). What I think is that quality food sources of protein trump it and it wouldn't be considered "necessary" by most if diet could be kept in check. Lastly, you lose out on the digestive process - understand that chewing induces various enzymes and cytokines to aid in assimilation.

BCAA - If the upper limit is set; then there is little "need" for BCAA, especially as a whole (see BCAA discussion thread). Leucine itself has shown superiority to BCAA in protein synthesis, etc... recently, so I have little need for valine and isoleucine. That said, if you are ingesting enough protein and I presume that you are...any free form amino has little benefit, especially in assimilation when you lose out on peptide bonds.

All MULTI-VITAMINS SUCK! People on this forum may not be familiar with my mantra in that domain...but that is sheer nutrient interaction in a bottle allowing the MVI to serve little purpose what-so-ever. Plus - water soluble elements (B complex, Vitamin C) should be dosed intermittently around the clock. A MVI is a lazy man's version of doing things "right." (please note quotes and sarcasm)

Caffeine as a "Top 10" - do I really have to speak on that? I don't doubt that our society wouldn't be able to potentially move without it in many instances. But - also given the ridiculous amounts ingested outside of supplementation (coffee, sodas, so-called "energy" drinks)...you have a recipie for adrenal shutdown! To suggest it ever need "supplemented" in addition is quite possibly preposterous.

Fish Oil...can't argue there!


Love me or hate me, I suppose.

D_

 

[dinoiii]

It was shown too in older men.

Yes, this is very true; however - we also see it on biopsy of younger guys...when you consider the relative body composition change, however, it usually requires much bigger doses for the younger.

It also seems to play a role in skeletal muscle lipid metabolism. Especially when combined with a carnitine source. I also made this post a while back on another forum. Maybe Dinoiii can debunk my hypothesis:

Here is a correlation for thought.

- Blacks have significantly higher coq10 plasma concentrations.

- Blacks "express the "D" allelle with a much greater frequency then whites"

- In regards to ACE expression those with the D/D phenotype have more type II muscle fibers

Referencing the following materials...

From Kelly's Skinny Fat Ecto Series

No debunking to be had; you are likely going to be someone I will get along with readily...you're pretty insightful actually.


D_

 

[T-Bone]

What is your opinion on astaxanthin?. I think I'll continue to take my multivitamin though, just because no one can get enough vitamins and minerals from diet no matter how supposedly perfect they think their diet may be. I think of a multi-vitamin just as a back up to at least get the minimum amounts of vitamins and minerals so as not to be clinically deficient. Also for creatine why didn't you pick creapure?. Why pick a newer version of creatine? Also, why would you supplement with Leucine?. Wouldn't a high protein diet contain more than enough Leucine, the same reason you left out whey protein?. Whey protein for me is used more out of convenience and not necessity. It also helps with the monotony that comes with eating a high protein diet. Sometimes you would rather drink a protein drink than eat another dang can of tuna!. Now whey protein is not needed but it sure can be helpful. Leucine on the other hand, doesn't make much sense to me to use as a supplement. Maybe in certain specific situations....

 

[dinoiii]

What is your opinion on astaxanthin?

In regards to....testosterone, redox reactions,...?

I mean its effects are pretty far-reaching and I am a fan of it...yes! It shows great promise with immunity, lipid derrangements, oxidative stress in the overweight individual, fat emulsification processes, testosterone production, etc...although a lot of these effects are inherent of carotenoids outside of astaxanthin too, so a mixed carotenoid supplement may be best.

I think I'll continue to take my multivitamin though, just because no one can get enough vitamins and minerals from diet no matter how supposedly perfect they think their diet may be. I think of a multi-vitamin just as a back up to at least get the minimum amounts of vitamins and minerals so as not to be clinically deficient.

This is the response I get from many and understand...there is a reason I still say supplement with individual nutrients...I too, believe diets are too inefficient and incomplete for making sure optimal levels of vital nutrients are obtained. But consider the following, (and this is just an example)...

Taking too much of one mineral can affect your elimination of, or make it hard (maybe even impossible) for your body to use, one or more of the other minerals.

So, which minerals contribute to the problems? All of them can!

• If you get too much calcium, your body may not be able to absorb or use magnesium, iron, or zinc. (Wait a minute, perhaps, another reason people should STILL take a ZMA supp at a time other than that which they ingest calcium)
• If you get too much copper, your body too may not be able to absorb or use zinc.
• If you get too much iron, your body may not be able to absorb or use phosphorus OR zinc.
• If you get too much manganese, your body may not be able to absorb or use iron. (this is despite adequate meat intake).
• If you get too much molybedenum, your body may not be able to absorb or use zinc OR copper.
• If you get too much phosphorus, your body may not be able to absorb or use calcium.
• If you get too much sulfur (protein), your boy may not be able to absorb or use molybedenum.
• If you get too much zinc, your body may not be able to absorb or use copper.

And these aren’t the only cascades multiple vitamin/mineral supps don’t take into consideration, and for it I have no recommendations at this time on how to correct all of them, because it WILL vary DEPENDENT UPON which diet you are partaking in.

If a multi has all of the above and one is eliminating certain nutrients by default before they even ingest it; is the value of the nutrient itself worthwhile and/or cost-efficient at that point?

Also for creatine why didn't you pick creapure?. Why pick a newer version of creatine?

I am not against monohydrate forms - in fact, there is a plethora of research to back them. What I do listen to is my clients over the years...many of which have suggested they don't do well with monohydrate. For whatever reason, bloating, etc... I don't care. Now, again it is worth re-iterating that I am NOT against monohydrate.

We do know a thing or two about salts though that should be also taken into consideration.

For this, I will use orotic acid as my example and creatine orotate. The salt pound for pound actually has LESS of the element in question....the creatine molecule, however, its oral bioavailability is increased. Creatine Orotate is actually used to preserve cardiac tissue in heart transplant patients.

Also, why would you supplement with Leucine? Wouldn't a high protein diet contain more than enough Leucine, the same reason you left out whey protein?

In times of acute stress (i.e.-the workout), they do not equate. However, if you were to look for a whole protein, why not food?

Whey protein for me is used more out of convenience and not necessity. It also helps with the monotony that comes with eating a high protein diet. Sometimes you would rather drink a protein drink than eat another dang can of tuna!. Now whey protein is not needed but it sure can be helpful. Leucine on the other hand, doesn't make much sense to me to use as a supplement. Maybe in certain specific situations....

In the acute setting as stated above, it can be very beneficial (but perhaps this is the "specific situation" you reference).

I do NOT disagree with what you have written about whey, mind you...there is a quintessential element of metabolism lost without chewing and other whole proteins could fit the bill.

There is versatility with leucine in that it is the ONLY amino that can boast a 100% ketogenic profile. Please don't confuse what I am saying with that it is the only one you can use on a ketogenic diet, because that's NOT the translation.


D_

 

[T-Bone]

Thanks a lot for your well thought out response. I still don't understand why you consider supplementing with Leucine so important when you can get plenty of it from food. Maybe I missed that it your response or I mis-understood something. Dumb it down a bit for me!.

 

[dinoiii]

T-Bone, somehow I think I am gonna like you!!!! I am unfamiliar with everyone on this board so it may take some time to recognize who the really intent guys are...but you surely take an early lead.

What I am saying is - around a workout, it has purpose ... that is my "acute setting" example for this board because that is what is at interest. How could I enhance recovery and perhaps promote protein synthesis at the best rate possible.

Eliminate the workout...in other words, take someone who isn't an avid forum member on Anabolic Minds or perhaps inferior boards....say they don't work out, the "acute setting" has been lifted and I too would agree with you, there may be little need to supplement it ever.

So while I might still include it in supplementation for people on this board (around the workout alone and very possible first thing in AM if no intention on immediate food stuff ingestion); it would drop off the list if someone weren't working out. We may be saying the same thing with that as my only qualifier.


D_

 

[T-Bone]

Thanks Dinoii, good explanation. I also posted a reply to you in your BCAA thread if you have time to take a look...

 

[AutoKal47]

It is VERY interesting to me that people somehow think "bodybuilding" is apparently "unhealthy."

A word on whey and BCAA....

Why I didn't include whey protein in my "Top 10" ... it's certainly not that I would ever suggest it to be a "bad" supplement (don't confuse the two). What I think is that quality food sources of protein trump it and it wouldn't be considered "necessary" by most if diet could be kept in check. Lastly, you lose out on the digestive process - understand that chewing induces various enzymes and cytokines to aid in assimilation.

BCAA - If the upper limit is set; then there is little "need" for BCAA, especially as a whole (see BCAA discussion thread). Leucine itself has shown superiority to BCAA in protein synthesis, etc... recently, so I have little need for valine and isoleucine. That said, if you are ingesting enough protein and I presume that you are...any free form amino has little benefit, especially in assimilation when you lose out on peptide bonds.

All MULTI-VITAMINS SUCK! People on this forum may not be familiar with my mantra in that domain...but that is sheer nutrient interaction in a bottle allowing the MVI to serve little purpose what-so-ever. Plus - water soluble elements (B complex, Vitamin C) should be dosed intermittently around the clock. A MVI is a lazy man's version of doing things "right." (please note quotes and sarcasm)

Caffeine as a "Top 10" - do I really have to speak on that? I don't doubt that our society wouldn't be able to potentially move without it in many instances. But - also given the ridiculous amounts ingested outside of supplementation (coffee, sodas, so-called "energy" drinks)...you have a recipie for adrenal shutdown! To suggest it ever need "supplemented" in addition is quite possibly preposterous.

Fish Oil...can't argue there!


Love me or hate me, I suppose.

D_

I absolutely agree, bodybuilding and consequent diet - at least for me - means being healthy.
What I meant with my statement was more like muscle enhancement oriented supplements because
I do partially see supplement as something you take for things that are hardly available in the right amount
with food, whether or not I am right and most likely I'm not because very ignorant on a lot of things.

My need for whey is because I have a very weird diet and without going into details, I can't get
enough with food, I'd probably die of starvation without them.

BCAA, I know the whole shebangs about them, and yet, for me, my personal experience with or without them
makes probably the biggest difference in my performance at the gym. Again, most likely is due to my diet..
Altho' I read so many things about leucine and how is actually not that amazing.. I personally stick to the
regular ratio and that works for me.

Multi: very interesting, I do my best to try to dose my vits in a different way than just pop up a pill of multi (or 9)
I even recently opened a thread here about the availability of synthetic vitamins for the human body exactly because
I def don't know enough about them, your reading is very interesting and I'm def gonna research more about it

Caffeine, well, I don't drink energy drinks nor I get it from any other sources aside from coffee, caffeine pills and prewo,
I know exactly how much i'm taking and, again, unfortunately I wouldn't function with it. But you're absolutely right,
my adrenals are a *mess*. Trynna fix that, it ain't easy

Fish Oil care to share your opinion on a "right" dosage? Again there are so many different words out about it..

 

[T-Bone]

Here is a list of the supplements I take that I consider basics

Now Adam Men's Multi

Bio-Mend by Applied Nutriceuticals

Astaxanthin Now brand 4 mg three times a day

Super Epa(fish oil- Now brand) 6 capsules a day

Creapure creatine 5g a day


Cla by Primordial Performance, 12 capsules a day(first time trying CLA and I'm not impressed)



Heres the kicker!!,,

Oh yeah and lately I have been taking L-Leucine by Primaforce one scoop pre workout and one after totaling 10 grams!!. The thing is I have been questioning this purchase ever since and reading up on it on the internet.... Plus a book I have suggests it highly.

You now can see why I questioned L-Leucine so much....Plus I'm down to the bottom of the container and not sure about purchasing more as I'm not as rich as a lot of the guys on here and would like to limit my supplement consumption.

 

[mattrag]

In regard of what AK said about right dosages, can you give us some ranges to play with in dosing those 10 supps? I have already stopped my multiple vit about six months ago because I heard on the paleo solution pod cast about all those mineral cascades and then SuperHuman radio about all the cascades in general and realized it's more than I'll take this and I'll get this result. Its more like my body is going through these physical stresses and using up enzymes and mineral cascades to adapt and if I'm deficient In a certain parent enzyme or activator of the cascade the results will differ. Sometimes dramatically. Sorry to bore you with my epiphany hehhe. Definitely subbed.

 

[JudoJosh]

is this top 10 question open to everyone to list? or just the doc?

 

[Sourdough]

In regard of what AK said about right dosages, can you give us some ranges to play with in dosing those 10 supps? I have already stopped my multiple vit about six months ago because I heard on the paleo solution pod cast about all those mineral cascades and then SuperHuman radio about all the cascades in general and realized it's more than I'll take this and I'll get this result. Its more like my body is going through these physical stresses and using up enzymes and mineral cascades to adapt and if I'm deficient In a certain parent enzyme or activator of the cascade the results will differ. Sometimes dramatically. Sorry to bore you with my epiphany hehhe. Definitely subbed.

I know the statement was "all multivitamin suck" but what do you think about MVP from MST and it's inclusion of krebs cycles intermediates to help boost enzymatic reactions and proper absorption....

More then anything I do think their ZMK (zma supp) with the added krebs cycle intermediates is superior to the classic zma supp n def provides added benefits not found otherwise.

 

[Torobestia]

Hey Dr.

I am very unfamiliar with CoQ10 as a supplement. As an undergrad, I did study biochem so I am familiar with ubiquinone and it's role in the ETS, but that's about it. I have heard much about CoQ10 on this forum; many are big fans. I'll definitely look into it someday soon.

Anyways, that list is very solid! I see a few items that I could not do without, or I could but it would be the last thing I go without. Let me share with people what my list might look like;

• (Triple Strength) Fish Oil: only looking for omega-3 supplementation here
• Controlled Labs Orange TRiad: a 2 or 3x-day multivitamin with more vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients included relevant to bodybuilders, plus extra goodies such as glucosamine, chondroitin, R-ALA (may not be an efficatious dose of R-ALA though, I'm not sure)
• ZMA (looking at magnesium supplementation here mostly as I already get zinc through a pre-workout formula)
• Purus Labs Muscle Marinade
  
  - 1g Vitamin C
  - B complex vitamins
  - Magnesium, Zinc, Selenium, other minerals
  - 6g Creatine Mono
  - 2.5g Betaine Anhydrous (not sure on how well this supplement effects me standalone)
  - 2g Beta Alanine
  - 6g EAAs
  - 380mg total of 1,3-dmaa and caffeine (many guess it's 80mg dmaa and 300mg caffeine, but that seems huge)​
• EGCGs: taken every meal
• Carnipure L-Carnitine: in the form of LCLT, taking around 3g daily
• Creapure Creatine Mono

Sadly I am not taking any Vitamin D outside my vitamin, and that only provides 500IU. I'll likely pick up a Vitamin D supplement in the very near future. I have also taken Athletix TitaniumXL for a total daily dosage of 1700mg Fenugreek 50% Fenusides; 1600mg LCLT; 400mg Indole-3-carbinol (in addition to my regular LCLT). I was using the fenugreek as a T booster at first, but I've noticed some very interesting effects if I take it on an empty stomach at night - I seem to sleep a whole lot deeper and wake up with very clear skin. I wish I could pull up the study I read recently (it's also on AM) that said Fenugreek may have potent GH-boosting properties, but I feel like there may be something to that.

That's all I have for now. I'll revisit the topic to see if any interesting discussion pops up regarding multis, CoQ10, or any other supplements.

 

[redemption79]

2. Vitamins C and D (Vit C at 500 mg with EVERY meal through the day; even eating is an oxidative process. NO MORE than 500mg so abort pills that contain 1000 mg or whatever...they actually turn PRO-oxidant. Also, Vit C is vital at promoting collagen resynthesis. Vitamin D. What can I say? Actually, what can I not?);

Are you saying to dose Vit C with meals at a total of 500mg/day?
I assume you don't take 500mg with every meal, right?

I've been trying to figure out proper vitamin supplementation for as long as I have been going to the gym. There are so many different perspectives on it, but it seems that most of the multis are random at best.

 

[dinoiii]

Here is a list of the supplements I take that I consider basics

Now Adam Men's Multi

Bio-Mend by Applied Nutriceuticals

Astaxanthin Now brand 4 mg three times a day

Super Epa(fish oil- Now brand) 6 capsules a day

Creapure creatine 5g a day


Cla by Primordial Performance, 12 capsules a day(first time trying CLA and I'm not impressed)



Heres the kicker!!,,

Oh yeah and lately I have been taking L-Leucine by Primaforce one scoop pre workout and one after totaling 10 grams!!. The thing is I have been questioning this purchase ever since and reading up on it on the internet.... Plus a book I have suggests it highly.

You now can see why I questioned L-Leucine so much....Plus I'm down to the bottom of the container and not sure about purchasing more as I'm not as rich as a lot of the guys on here and would like to limit my supplement consumption.

Oh - what are your thoughts on that high a dose of astaxanthin? I have not encountered anyone religiously taking that much daily and I am just curious. I think the research is great (as stated above), but research doesn't always translate as we have discussed countless times in this subforum already.

I have posted some leucine studies in the BCAA thread as well as some food-for-thought on the topic BASED on research. I never suggest people need take what I recommend; I just try and present what I can in as much an objective manner as possible...which is why I always limit myself to ingredient discussions and not products per se.

I apologize but I don't really know what is in the product "Bio-Mend," but your list seems pretty respectible, so I presume it harbors some good ingredients.

CLA is a tough ingredient to understand. I am happy you are taking a high enough dose...many don't take a true volume of distribution adjusted dose and its unfortunate when they denounce the product. The problem is that it doesn't produce visible changes in body composition often enough or quickly enough for some people's liking as well, but it has to be the only Omega-6 fatty acid I would suggest taking that big a supplemental dose of.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

is this top 10 question open to everyone to list? or just the doc?

Everyone.


D_

 

[SweetLou321]

My top ten:
Alcar
LCLT
Beta-alanine
Creatine
Fish Oil
ALA
Vit D
Magnesium
BCAA, may switch to leucine, need to go do some reading in the bcaa thread
Taurine, idk if it does anthing really but i dont take much else

 

[JudoJosh]

Everyone.


D_

Selenium
Magnesium (applied trans-dermaly)
Curcumin (too many reason to not supplement with this! See -> http://www.mindandmuscle.net/wiki/index.php?title=Curcumin)
Beta-alanine
fish oil
toco-8 (Primordial performance product)
BCAA/EAAs
NAC
betaine (TMG) (see my recent thread on betaine -> http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-articles/183806-betaine-ergogenic-aid.html)
Bio-Mend (App nut product)
Vitamins C and D
GPLC (or other variations of l-carnitine {ALCAR & PLCAR) & LCLT
ALA
DAA

sorry I cant count

 

[BurghHardcore]

Selenium
Magnesium (applied trans-dermaly)
Curcumin (too many reason to not supplement with this! See -> http://www.mindandmuscle.net/wiki/index.php?title=Curcumin)
Beta-alanine
fish oil
toco-8 (Primordial performance product)
BCAA/EAAs
NAC
betaine (TMG)
Bio-Mend (App nut product)
Vitamins C and D
GPLC (or other variations of l-carnitine {ALCAR & PLCAR) & LCLT
ALA

sorry I cant count

Hey Josh. Where do you get your magnesium oil? I know you can get it from Mike Mahler's site, but it seems a bit expensive. Is that where you get it? How long does it last you?

 

[JudoJosh]

Hey Josh. Where do you get your magnesium oil? I know you can get it from Mike Mahler's site, but it seems a bit expensive. Is that where you get it? How long does it last you?

PM sent

 

[BurghHardcore]

Thanks man. Looks like I gotta check later. It's not allowing me to view my PM's at the moment.

 

[houstontexas]

Subbed to come back later

 

[AutoKal47]

Selenium
Magnesium (applied trans-dermaly)

Ah! I just got the whole lot of transdermal Mag oil just last night, is on it's way
I've never tried it before, I'm very curious to see its benefits

 

[JudoJosh]

Ah! I just got the whole lot of transdermal Mag oil just last night, is on it's way
I've never tried it before, I'm very curious to see its benefits

Magnesium is an unbelievably important mineral for all sorts of body processes.

Here is a quick study showing just one of the many benefits of magnesium

Dietary Magnesium and C-reactive Protein Levels

Objective: Current dietary guidelines recommend adequate intake of magnesium (310–420mg daily) in order to maintain health and lower the risk of cardiovascular disease. Recent evidence from animal and clinical studies suggests that magnesium may be associated with inflammatory processes. The objective of this study was to determine whether dietary magnesium consumption is associated with C-reactive protein (CRP), a marker of inflammation, in a nationally representative sample.

Methods: Analysis of adult (≥17 years) participants in a cross-sectional nationally representative survey (National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey 1999–2000 [NHANES]) who were not taking magnesium or magnesium-containing supplements. The primary outcome measure was high sensitivity CRP (elevated ≥3.0mg/L).

Results: Among US adults, 68% consumed less than the recommended daily allowance (RDA) of magnesium, and 19% consumed less than 50% of the RDA. After controlling for demographic and cardiovascular risk factors, adults who consumed <RDA of magnesium were 1.48–1.75 times more likely to have elevated CRP than adults who consumed ≥RDA (Odds Ratio [OR] for intake <50% RDA = 1.75, 95% Confidence Interval [CI] 1.08–2.87). Adults who were over age 40 with a BMI >25 and who consumed <50% RDA for magnesium were 2.24 times more likely to have elevated CRP (95% CI 1.13–4.46) than adults ≥RDA.

Conclusions: Most Americans consume magnesium at levels below the RDA. Individuals with intakes below the RDA are more likely to have elevated CRP, which may contribute to cardiovascular disease risk

This shows that as consumption of magnesium fell, the levels of C-reactive protein went up, which is a measure of inflammation.

Pretty much means great for your heart!!

Hundreds of enzymes use magnesium for everything from regulating potassium status, as a calcium channel blocker, helps blood pressure stay down and blood vessels stay pliable, builds bones, and as an anti-inflammatory just to list a few

There is also a belief that "Metabolic Syndrome" is nothing but a result of a magnesium deficiency. ( Metabolic syndrome is a name for a group of risk factors that occur together and increase the risk for coronary artery disease, stroke, and type 2 diabetes.)

I can literally go on and on on the benefits of magnesium supplementation but I wont Instead I suggest you pick up this book Amazon.com: The Miracle of Magnesium (9780345445889): Carolyn Dean: Books

In regards to topical use of magnesium, it has been shown to have the ability to raise DHEA levels when absorbed through the skin

“as magnesium is absorbed through the skin and underlying fatty tissues of the body it sets off many chain reactions, one of which ends in the production of DHEA.”

Here is a link to the study that shows that magnesium oil ramps up DHEA levels: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7364753.html

 

[Messenger]

Dr. Houser was recently asked on his FB page what he thought were the top 10 "must haves" - here was his response...

Joe Mista: "Hey Dana as a whole what are your top 10 (or more) favorite vitamins, minerals, etc...?"

Dr. Houser: "I thought of the first 10 things that would come to mind and this is the "off-the-top-of-my-head can't be without Top 10." There are only a couple true ergogenic aids I might include in this group / more stuff here is probably "essential" ...elements":

10. Selenium (if male, this is the equivalent to folic acid for females; but imperative for thyroid functioning and proper metabolism...quintessential and often overlooked);

9. Creatine (MCC or Creatine Orotate preferred);

8. Curcumin (anti-inflammatory/pro-testosterone, can be found in every guy's cupboard I hope...understand bioavailability is poor, so take more of it!!!!);

7. Magnesium (100s of enzymatic processes in the body);

6. L-carnitine (all forms, but LOVE LCLT/PLC/ALCAR combo);

5. Leucine (NOT all BCAAs; leucine alone is overlooked and the only sole ketogenic BCAA);

4. Beta-alanine (has supplanted creatine as the true necessity when it comes to anti-oxidant prowess and ergogenic value...its unmatched);

3. CoQ10 (multi-function strikes again - can change type I muscle fibers to type IIs; can protect the heart; act as an antioxidant, etc...);

2. Vitamins C and D (Vit C at 500 mg with EVERY meal through the day; even eating is an oxidative process. NO MORE than 500mg so abort pills that contain 1000 mg or whatever...they actually turn PRO-oxidant. Also, Vit C is vital at promoting collagen resynthesis. Vitamin D. What can I say? Actually, what can I not?);

1. B Complex (not flashy and can be taken with Vit C at all meals, but given its multitude of functions and co-factor offering, I wouldn't dream of going without it)."



I am curious what your Top 10 lists might look like?


D_

What would be the beneficial dosage range for these supplements for a 200lb trainee?
Especially interested in selenium, curcumin and CoQ10.
Thanks.

 

[jbryand101b]

CoQ10 can change fiber type? is it significant in any way?

the only muscle fibers that will decrease will be type 2B fibers, and they will change to type 2a as a result of training specificity (like resistance training)

 

[TheDarkHalf]

subbed

 

[ssbackwards]

subbed

 

[cosmosis]

Great stuff! I've just started with Magnesium oil as well in the mornings. I'm currently using 20 sprays (approx 200mg) of the Ancient Minerals blend and take another 250 mg mag citrate at night. Is that a good dosage of the oil in your experience? Also, any anecdotal effects when you take it?

Magnesium is an unbelievably important mineral for all sorts of body processes.

Here is a quick study showing just one of the many benefits of magnesium



This shows that as consumption of magnesium fell, the levels of C-reactive protein went up, which is a measure of inflammation.

Pretty much means great for your heart!!

Hundreds of enzymes use magnesium for everything from regulating potassium status, as a calcium channel blocker, helps blood pressure stay down and blood vessels stay pliable, builds bones, and as an anti-inflammatory just to list a few

There is also a belief that "Metabolic Syndrome" is nothing but a result of a magnesium deficiency. ( Metabolic syndrome is a name for a group of risk factors that occur together and increase the risk for coronary artery disease, stroke, and type 2 diabetes.)

I can literally go on and on on the benefits of magnesium supplementation but I wont Instead I suggest you pick up this book Amazon.com: The Miracle of Magnesium (9780345445889): Carolyn Dean: Books

In regards to topical use of magnesium, it has been shown to have the ability to raise DHEA levels when absorbed through the skin



Here is a link to the study that shows that magnesium oil ramps up DHEA levels: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7364753.html

 

[BurghHardcore]

Magnesium is an unbelievably important mineral for all sorts of body processes.

Here is a quick study showing just one of the many benefits of magnesium



This shows that as consumption of magnesium fell, the levels of C-reactive protein went up, which is a measure of inflammation.

Pretty much means great for your heart!!

Hundreds of enzymes use magnesium for everything from regulating potassium status, as a calcium channel blocker, helps blood pressure stay down and blood vessels stay pliable, builds bones, and as an anti-inflammatory just to list a few

There is also a belief that "Metabolic Syndrome" is nothing but a result of a magnesium deficiency. ( Metabolic syndrome is a name for a group of risk factors that occur together and increase the risk for coronary artery disease, stroke, and type 2 diabetes.)

I can literally go on and on on the benefits of magnesium supplementation but I wont Instead I suggest you pick up this book Amazon.com: The Miracle of Magnesium (9780345445889): Carolyn Dean: Books

In regards to topical use of magnesium, it has been shown to have the ability to raise DHEA levels when absorbed through the skin



Here is a link to the study that shows that magnesium oil ramps up DHEA levels: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7364753.html

Hey Josh, How many sprays of the magnesium oil do you use and how long does one bottle last with your dosing protocol?

 

[BurghHardcore]

Is it a good idea to take Astaxanthin and Beta-Carotene together? I was thinking of purcashing the two supplements below. What do you think? Also, you say you can take water soluble vitamins C and B with meals throughout the day, what is the best way and time to take fat soluble vitamins A, D, and E? Spread out from one another with meals? All at one at breakfast?

Astaxanthin Supplement Facts Serving Size: 1 softgel Servings per Container: 60
	Calories 5 Calories from Fat 4 Total Fat .05g 1% Vitamin A (100% as Natural Beta-Carotene) 105 IU 2% Vitamin E (as Natural d-alpha Tocopherol) 50 IU 167% BioAstin Natural Astaxanthin (from Haematococcus pluvialis Extract) 4mg ** Lutein 40 mcg **

and

Natural Beta Carotene Supplement Facts Serving Size: 1 Softgel Servings per Container: 180
	Beta-Carotene (as pro-Vitamin A 15mg) 25,000 IU 500% Vitamin E (from Mixed Tocopherols) 5 IU 17% Lecithin (61% Phosphatides) 10mg **

 

[T-Bone]

Oh - what are your thoughts on that high a dose of astaxanthin? I have not encountered anyone religiously taking that much daily and I am just curious. I think the research is great (as stated above), but research doesn't always translate as we have discussed countless times in this subforum already.

I have posted some leucine studies in the BCAA thread as well as some food-for-thought on the topic BASED on research. I never suggest people need take what I recommend; I just try and present what I can in as much an objective manner as possible...which is why I always limit myself to ingredient discussions and not products per se.

I apologize but I don't really know what is in the product "Bio-Mend," but your list seems pretty respectible, so I presume it harbors some good ingredients.

CLA is a tough ingredient to understand. I am happy you are taking a high enough dose...many don't take a true volume of distribution adjusted dose and its unfortunate when they denounce the product. The problem is that it doesn't produce visible changes in body composition often enough or quickly enough for some people's liking as well, but it has to be the only Omega-6 fatty acid I would suggest taking that big a supplemental dose of.


D_

As far as the CLA goes, are you saying I shouldn't give up on it just yet?. Also I didn't know it was an Omega 6 fatty acid. I probably could have figured that out via google though so guess I'm just lazy with some things...Anyway I have another question for you now regarding this. I have read numerous times that people get more than enough omega 6 fatty acids from diet. Plus if you supplement with excess omega 6 fatty acids this will throw off balance between omega 3's and omega 6's causing you to become deficient in omega 3s. So now I'm even more concerned about my CLA usage..... On the Astaxanthin dosage I really have no idea on the dosage. I read about it online here. I can tell a difference in endurance since I started taking it, but not sure how large of a dose is actually needed to maintain that. Bio Mend is an antioxident supplement.

 

[Resolve]

Dr. Houser,
What dose do you recommend for curcumin?

 

[mattrag]

Dr. Houser,
What dose do you recommend for curcumin?

On top of this what about the dosage for vitamin B (and all the "-#" like b-12 etc.) I have heard that vitamin B is grossly overdosed. Or is it that the RDA levels are grossly underdosed? I know that there is research stating that vitamin B6 over dosing can down regulate androgen receptors... A nice dosing procedure for your top 10 would be excellent

 

[TheUnlikelyToad]

How much Selenium daily Doc? I find that if I supplement at night it gives me anxiety and keeps me up. Quite a few products I've used in the past that contain Selenium has done this... ZMK, Hgh-Up etc.

 

[dinoiii]

My top ten:
Alcar
LCLT
Beta-alanine
Creatine
Fish Oil
ALA
Vit D
Magnesium
BCAA, may switch to leucine, need to go do some reading in the bcaa thread
Taurine, idk if it does anthing really but i dont take much else

Nice List; I have very few gripes with it. I would suggest a switch to leucine and possibly dumping the taurine (simply to save money if you feel it's done nothing for you; I can't say I have ever gotten much from it either).

Selenium
Magnesium (applied trans-dermaly)
Curcumin (too many reason to not supplement with this! See -> http://www.mindandmuscle.net/wiki/index.php?title=Curcumin)
Beta-alanine
fish oil
toco-8 (Primordial performance product)
BCAA/EAAs
NAC
betaine (TMG) (see my recent thread on betaine -> http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-articles/183806-betaine-ergogenic-aid.html)
Bio-Mend (App nut product)
Vitamins C and D
GPLC (or other variations of l-carnitine {ALCAR & PLCAR) & LCLT
ALA
DAA

sorry I cant count

A lot of people picking this BioMend up; apparently I got to check it out. Love curcumin and betaine (TMG; poor man's SAMe). Would be certainly not antagonistic to include betaine or SAMe to my list even.

What would be the beneficial dosage range for these supplements for a 200lb trainee?
Especially interested in selenium, curcumin and CoQ10.
Thanks.

Selenium 200mcg is more than sufficient for most; 400mcg in some larger harder-training individuals. Now, that's supplemental form. There's a narrow therapeutic window with it so you can't dose 100% freely, but it is even quintessential in testosterone production when combined with antioxidants like NAC.

the only muscle fibers that will decrease will be type 2B fibers, and they will change to type 2a as a result of training specificity (like resistance training)

Says who? The one study referenced in this thread alone suggests type I fibers actually (of course the study is truly only correlational, but it's what we have to go by). Do you have a citation for this statement?


D_

 

[dinoiii]

Is it a good idea to take Astaxanthin and Beta-Carotene together? I was thinking of purcashing the two supplements below. What do you think? Also, you say you can take water soluble vitamins C and B with meals throughout the day, what is the best way and time to take fat soluble vitamins A, D, and E? Spread out from one another with meals? All at one at breakfast?

Astaxanthin Supplement Facts Serving Size: 1 softgel Servings per Container: 60
	Calories 5 Calories from Fat 4 Total Fat .05g 1% Vitamin A (100% as Natural Beta-Carotene) 105 IU 2% Vitamin E (as Natural d-alpha Tocopherol) 50 IU 167% BioAstin Natural Astaxanthin (from Haematococcus pluvialis Extract) 4mg ** Lutein 40 mcg **

and

Natural Beta Carotene Supplement Facts Serving Size: 1 Softgel Servings per Container: 180
	Beta-Carotene (as pro-Vitamin A 15mg) 25,000 IU 500% Vitamin E (from Mixed Tocopherols) 5 IU 17% Lecithin (61% Phosphatides) 10mg **

Sure, mixed carotenoids is probably the best way to go and one would suggest a balance to be established with all of them.

The first product looks better and the second one (not bad, just unnecessary).

As for fat-soluble vitamins...Vitamin D depends on how much you take, if you're taking D2 or D3 (I presume most on this board take D3), or if you have any absorption issues. We can't always control absorption issues...but safely 2,000-5,000IU can be taken by everyone daily of Vitamin D3...once during the day is fine as they accumulate in the liver and various other fatty areas.

Vitamin A, you'd be taking care of with your mixed carotenoid supplement. Vitamin A (retinol) itself does NOT need to be taken supplementally and could prove toxic really easy; beta-carotene (two retinol molecules put together)...is only called to action when needed. Use beta-carotene before considering a retinol supplement.

Vitamin E....I think people on this board have done well in taking all 8 isomers (A product like someone mentioned above in Primordial Performance's Toco-8 and there are some products from Jarrow and/or AOR that are decent isomer variants of the vitamin - again, once daily is plenty.

As far as the CLA goes, are you saying I shouldn't give up on it just yet?. Also I didn't know it was an Omega 6 fatty acid. I probably could have figured that out via google though so guess I'm just lazy with some things...Anyway I have another question for you now regarding this. I have read numerous times that people get more than enough omega 6 fatty acids from diet. Plus if you supplement with excess omega 6 fatty acids this will throw off balance between omega 3's and omega 6's causing you to become deficient in omega 3s. So now I'm even more concerned about my CLA usage..... On the Astaxanthin dosage I really have no idea on the dosage. I read about it online here. I can tell a difference in endurance since I started taking it, but not sure how large of a dose is actually needed to maintain that. Bio Mend is an antioxident supplement.

As for CLA...fear not, my friend...you must realize that Linoleic (alongside linolenic) acid are ESSENTIAL (in other words, you gotta take them daily). If you're supplementing with 2-4 grams of combined EPA + DHA, you should not push your 3:6 ratio off much, if at all. There are plenty of positives for this fatty acid and I think if you stop it, you'll probably have the easiest time identifying what it did while you were on it...but yeah, I agree it isn't a caffeine or anything that you could feel any different with in any quick time frame unfortunately.

Dr. Houser,
What dose do you recommend for curcumin?

Can I say as much as you can take...spice, root, powder, pill. I am well aware of the absorption issues with it and unfortunately, I don't think anyone can answer this with 100% certainty....but I think it should be used as frequently as money can afford it and in as much a tally.


D_

 

[dunhill225]

My top supplements.

Beef
Chicken
Greens
Eggs
Almost any non farm raised fish
Beef
Any greens
Beef
Sugar
Non farm raised fish

If most people spent the money they spent on supps on organic foods, locally grown foods, hormone free meats, etc... They would be healthier And wealthier.

Oh and again, this is my list. I MAY have an occasional protein shake if I'm pressed for time but that's about as much as I supplement.

Just me.

 

[dinoiii]

On top of this what about the dosage for vitamin B (and all the "-#" like b-12 etc.) I have heard that vitamin B is grossly overdosed. Or is it that the RDA levels are grossly underdosed? I know that there is research stating that vitamin B6 over dosing can down regulate androgen receptors... A nice dosing procedure for your top 10 would be excellent

There's a product called "B-Right" from Jarrow Formulations with lower dose B vitamins in their cofactor form. I recommend 1-2 caps with EVERY meal. That's right...I said every meal if you can afford it. Vitamin B actually has research supporting it's use (agree with B6 being an issue, but its easier to worry about peripheral neuropathy than it is testosterone deficiency with it) in MUCH higher doses than recommended.

I have got to break for the night in a minute, BUT will offer what I USE in dosing of the top 10 tomorrow at some point. You can extrapolate what you will from that.

How much Selenium daily Doc? I find that if I supplement at night it gives me anxiety and keeps me up. Quite a few products I've used in the past that contain Selenium has done this... ZMK, Hgh-Up etc.

Hey Jordan!

Selenium (as I just posted) at 200-400mcg/day...not too high as it has a narrow therapeutic index (side effects are very real if going too high). I am unsure what is in the product Hgh-Up (but I did believe that to be a nighttime formula, so interesting), but I do know that ZMK is a "krebs cycle product" which some of those salts could easily account for the anxiety you feel and keeping you up at night. Let me review what is in Hgh-Up and get back to you to see if I see any pattern in ingredient/form, etc...

I don't know if everyone on the board wants kids, but - if that's the case selenium is VERY important in this regard (some may do well without procreating and they can turn a blind eye to my writing on this). I am happy everyone is taking heed to the notion that it is VERY important.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

My top supplements.

Beef
Chicken
Greens
Eggs
Almost any non farm raised fish
Beef
Any greens
Beef
Sugar
Non farm raised fish

If most people spent the money they spent on supps on organic foods, locally grown foods, hormone free meats, etc... They would be healthier And wealthier.

Oh and again, this is my list. I MAY have an occasional protein shake if I'm pressed for time but that's about as much as I supplement.

Just me.

Well said and point well taken actually.

Most bodybuilder's diets are, however, usually deficient in something and certain things do have an ergogenic effect above a certain dose.

D_

 

[Resolve]

Can I say as much as you can take...spice, root, powder, pill. I am well aware of the absorption issues with it and unfortunately, I don't think anyone can answer this with 100% certainty....but I think it should be used as frequently as money can afford it and in as much a tally.

Wow. Well I guess I'll be picking up a bunch of turmeric then... thanks!

 

[ax1]

So complicated, lol

Ill stick to my Orange Triad, Fish Oil, Garlic Oil, E3 Live (Klamath Lake Frozen Liquid Blue Green Algae), extra Vitamin C and D.

Orange Triad Link
http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/controlled-labs/orange-triad-270-tabs.html

 

[SweetLou321]

Nice List; I have very few gripes with it. I would suggest a switch to leucine and possibly dumping the taurine (simply to save money if you feel it's done nothing for you; I can't say I have ever gotten much from it either).

The only thing i notice from taurine it is a slight reduction in back pumps when doing deadlifts. But Ill be changing some things around in my list after reading your posts on some things in here. I read over in the bcaa thread. So you believe leucine outside of bcaa has just as much benifit? Bc your thread turned into a study war lol

 

[Torobestia]

Nice List; I have very few gripes with it. I would suggest a switch to leucine and possibly dumping the taurine (simply to save money if you feel it's done nothing for you; I can't say I have ever gotten much from it either).

The only thing i notice from taurine it is a slight reduction in back pumps when doing deadlifts. But Ill be changing some things around in my list after reading your posts on some things in here. I read over in the bcaa thread. So you believe leucine outside of bcaa has just as much benifit? Bc your thread turned into a study war lol

How come you get back pumps after deadlifts? Or maybe I should ask, where in your back do you get them?

 

[SweetLou321]

Its like a pump in the lumbar region that can be cripling. Similar to those ppl feel when on certain AAS. I havent had the issue in ages, so ill prob drop the taurine.

 

[T-Bone]

Guess I will continue with the CLA than. It is pretty cheap so no problem continuing use.