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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    We also found that pretreatment with combined LA and ALC increased mitochondrial biogenesis and decreased production of reactive oxygen species through the up-regulation of the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma coactivator 1alpha as a possible underlying mechanism.
    Atrogin-1 affects muscle protein synthesis and degradation when energy metabolism is impaired by the antidiabetes drug berberine.

    Abstract
    OBJECTIVE:
    Defects in insulin/IGF-1 signaling stimulate muscle protein loss by suppressing protein synthesis and increasing protein degradation. Since an herbal compound, berberine, lowers blood levels of glucose and lipids, we proposed that it would improve insulin/IGF-1 signaling, blocking muscle protein losses.
    RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS:
    We evaluated whether berberine ameliorates muscle atrophy in db/db mice, a model of type 2 diabetes, by measuring protein synthesis and degradation in muscles of normal and db/db mice treated with or without berberine. We also examined mechanisms for berberine-induced changes in muscle protein metabolism.
    RESULTS:
    Berberine administration decreased protein synthesis and increased degradation in muscles of normal and db/db mice. The protein catabolic mechanism depended on berberine-stimulated expression of the E3 ubiquitin ligase, atrogin-1. Atrogin-1 not only increased proteolysis but also reduced protein synthesis by mechanisms that were independent of decreased phosphorylation of Akt or forkhead transcription factors. Impaired protein synthesis was dependent on a reduction in eIF3-f, an essential regulator of protein synthesis. Berberine impaired energy metabolism, activating AMP-activated protein kinase and providing an alternative mechanism for the stimulation of atrogin-1 expression. When we increased mitochondrial biogenesis by expressing peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma coactivator-1alpha, berberine-induced changes in muscle protein metabolism were prevented.
    CONCLUSIONS:
    Berberine impairs muscle metabolism by two novel mechanisms. It impairs mitochonidrial function stimulating the expression of atrogin-1 without affecting phosphorylation of forkhead transcription factors. The increase in atrogin-1 not only stimulated protein degradation but also suppressed protein synthesis, causing muscle atrophy.


    I found this to be interesting with GDAs being so popular.

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    I am actually aware of this study and always keep it in the back of my mind when evaluating usage of berberine. While I haven't looked far enough into it to see if we can extrapolate data from healthy rats (note that normal rats also suffered) to healthy humans, I would still co-administer Na-R-ALA with berberine irrespective of berberine's potential side effects. It is also why, despite berberine's numerous other benefits on overall health, I would never recommend it unless presented in the context of a carb-laden cheat meal in which inhibiting carbohydrate absorption is the goal.
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
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    I agree, and I only plan on using Berberine on high carb meals(trying out SLINtropin as I was hooked up with a couple bottles). I decided to do some research(very interesting stuff with many benefits) and remembered your post when coming across this. Irony.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    I am actually aware of this study and always keep it in the back of my mind when evaluating usage of berberine. While I haven't looked far enough into it to see if we can extrapolate data from healthy rats (note that normal rats also suffered) to healthy humans, I would still co-administer Na-R-ALA with berberine irrespective of berberine's potential side effects. It is also why, despite berberine's numerous other benefits on overall health, I would never recommend it unless presented in the context of a carb-laden cheat meal in which inhibiting carbohydrate absorption is the goal.
    Interesting as I heard many suggesting taking it before bed and Ina. Fasted state to take advantage of some PPar fat burning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag

    Interesting as I heard many suggesting taking it before bed and Ina. Fasted state to take advantage of some PPar fat burning.
    I've heard people say the same of other GDAs and I don't get it.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
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    I searched for what mattrag may be talking about and I found a write-up on why anabolic pump should be taken preworkout. I'll comment later, but the extrapolations and physiological significance are....iffy, to put it nicely.
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    I searched for what mattrag may be talking about and I found a write-up on why anabolic pump should be taken preworkout. I'll comment later, but the extrapolations and physiological significance are....iffy, to put it nicely.
    Thanks bro. You da man.
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    So everyone pretty much agrees on this thread that ALCAR and LCLT should be staples along with another Carnitine source starting with a P... Maybe PLCAR...? Something along those lines.

    Is there a supplement containing all 3 or is everyone individually buying these?

    I'm looking at getting those along with Na-R-Ala... Any brand recommendations of such supps that are being used would be great.

    Thank you to the Doc,Coop and all others contributing to this thread! I've learned a lot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dvaldez5 View Post
    So everyone pretty much agrees on this thread that ALCAR and LCLT should be staples along with another Carnitine source starting with a P... Maybe PLCAR...? Something along those lines.

    Is there a supplement containing all 3 or is everyone individually buying these?

    I'm looking at getting those along with Na-R-Ala... Any brand recommendations of such supps that are being used would be great.

    Thank you to the Doc,Coop and all others contributing to this thread! I've learned a lot!
    I can't speak for Dr. Houser, but I think they should be staples, with ALCAR and LCLT at the forefront and PLCAR a close second.

    No supplement that I know of doses all 3 at 2g/day/

    Use Geronova-licensed Na-R-ALA here on NP.
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Been trying out creatinol-o-phosphate(prototype version) since Doc recommends it. Been taking 2gr. before work out and planned on upping it to 6 throughout the day. With only 2g. Im getting bad explosive **** syndrome, and I rarely get that with supplements. Wondering if I can take it different somehow to avoid it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyser View Post
    Been trying out creatinol-o-phosphate(prototype version) since Doc recommends it. Been taking 2gr. before work out and planned on upping it to 6 throughout the day. With only 2g. Im getting bad explosive **** syndrome, and I rarely get that with supplements. Wondering if I can take it different somehow to avoid it?

    Spread out the doses..
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I searched for what mattrag may be talking about and I found a write-up on why anabolic pump should be taken preworkout. I'll comment later, but the extrapolations and physiological significance are....iffy, to put it nicely.
    Please let me know when you do post this comment
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Please let me know when you do post this comment
    I will. Until then, I encourage you to look up the primary MOA of berberine because it is often misconstrued.
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I will. Until then, I encourage you to look up the primary MOA of berberine because it is often misconstrued.
    Perhaps I will start a berberine thread as it seems there is some potential for some good discussion
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh

    Perhaps I will start a berberine thread as it seems there is some potential for some good discussion
    Start here

    http://examine.com/supplements/Berberine/
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
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    Cortisol control on a healthy individual wont translate into fat loss anyway
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage
    Cortisol control on a healthy individual wont translate into fat loss anyway
    Could you expand on this please?

    Does that mean that products like LX, Abliderate etc have no effect? That would go against any positive feedback given by healthy individuals.

    Just curious.
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    pyrroloquinoline quinone a close to top 10?

    What supplements might help with parkinsons disease(uncle has it)? Q10, mucuna, pyrroquinoline.. anything else?
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyser View Post
    pyrroloquinoline quinone a close to top 10?

    What supplements might help with parkinsons disease(uncle has it)? Q10, mucuna, pyrroquinoline.. anything else?
    cooper posted a journal article in a different thread (or was this one, I forget) detailing positive effects from dosing ALCAR and na-R-ALA together in patients with Parkinsons. Sorry I can't recall the details. Worth mentioning is that according to his research you should dose na-R-ALA about 30 minutes before ALCAR to get the most benefit from the combo since the two dosed together can interact with one another to make it less effective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post
    Cortisol control on a healthy individual wont translate into fat loss anyway
    I agree if that healthy individual does not strenuously exercising on a regular basis however if the individual is exercising regularly, especially for periods longer than an hour and to failure, i think cortisol control can be beneficial
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    Quote Originally Posted by ka0tik View Post
    I agree if that healthy individual does not strenuously exercising on a regular basis however if the individual is exercising regularly, especially for periods longer than an hour and to failure, i think cortisol control can be beneficial
    He said for fat loss. Cortisol control actually lowers lipolysis.

    That said, in the big picture, it should lower fat reserves and spare muscle. Furthermore, 7-keto's effects are far from limited to cortisol.
    http://pescience.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    He said for fat loss. Cortisol control actually lowers lipolysis.

    That said, in the big picture, it should lower fat reserves and spare muscle. Furthermore, 7-keto's effects are far from limited to cortisol.
    Also known to lighten wallets
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    Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia View Post
    cooper posted a journal article in a different thread (or was this one, I forget) detailing positive effects from dosing ALCAR and na-R-ALA together in patients with Parkinsons. Sorry I can't recall the details. Worth mentioning is that according to his research you should dose na-R-ALA about 30 minutes before ALCAR to get the most benefit from the combo since the two dosed together can interact with one another to make it less effective.
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    Ha ha ha that's also correct buddy....
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    I'm not sure about taking only 500mg vitamin c at a time. I took 1000mg tabs for at least a few months and never had any problem. Where is the proof that 1000mg is pro-oxident?. If it is then how come companies still sell 1000mg tabs?. I've read where people have taking much more than 1000mg at a time to help clear up colds and even cure serious sickness. Just google mega dosing vitamin c.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I'm not sure about taking only 500mg vitamin c at a time. I took 1000mg tabs for at least a few months and never had any problem. Where is the proof that 1000mg is pro-oxident?. If it is then how come companies still sell 1000mg tabs?. I've read where people have taking much more than 1000mg at a time to help clear up colds and even cure serious sickness. Just google mega dosing vitamin c.
    To be clear, you would never "notice" a problem from pro-oxidation. While I don't see much evidence for vitamin C pro-oxidation besides dose-response curve extrapolations, the bottom line is that if you're supplementing over 500mg in one sitting, you are wasting your vitamin C, as the plasma saturation dose is indeed 500mg (http://www.pl.barc.usda.gov/downloads/jp28.pdf).

    Companies are stupid. People are stupid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    To be clear, you would never "notice" a problem from pro-oxidation. While I don't see much evidence for vitamin C pro-oxidation besides dose-response curve extrapolations, the bottom line is that if you're supplementing over 500mg in one sitting, you are wasting your vitamin C, as the plasma saturation dose is indeed 500mg (http://www.pl.barc.usda.gov/downloads/jp28.pdf).

    Companies are stupid. People are stupid.

    Plasma Saturation?.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone

    Plasma Saturation?.
    You should check the link.

    Good link Coop

    Edit: it is talking about total saturation(intracellular and extracellular plasma levels[part of blood where blood cells are suspended])
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Plasma Saturation?.
    Google "blood plasma."
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    meh....depends on who's you use. 7-keto can boost immune system (increases IL-2 and WBCs to strengthen immune defenses)

    Many have reported avoiding the annual flu over the winter time just from adding an efficacious form of 7-keto to the mix

    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    7-Keto is also known to lighten wallets
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    To be clear, you would never "notice" a problem from pro-oxidation. While I don't see much evidence for vitamin C pro-oxidation besides dose-response curve extrapolations, the bottom line is that if you're supplementing over 500mg in one sitting, you are wasting your vitamin C, as the plasma saturation dose is indeed 500mg (http://www.pl.barc.usda.gov/downloads/jp28.pdf).

    Companies are stupid. People are stupid.
    And the Illuminati prey on this! Muhahaha! Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich for 2012!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green
    And the Illuminati prey on this! Muhahaha! Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich for 2012!
    THIS!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    So everyone pretty much agrees on this thread that ALCAR and LCLT should be staples along with another Carnitine source starting with a P... Maybe PLCAR...? Something along those lines.

    Is there a supplement containing all 3 or is everyone individually buying these?
    The moves like Jagr.

    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/b...-120-tabs.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garyboy View Post
    Proprietary blended and underdosed.
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69

    Proprietary blended and underdosed.
    My thoughts exactly...
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    Dr. D's thread is keeping on the right track.

    Will be receiving this in the mail shortly:
    Magnesium Glycinate
    CoQ10
    Selenium
    B-Right
    Jiaogulan
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    I don't disagree per se; BUT my bigger issue is with tablet versus capsule on this one.

    I am not a fan of binders (yet another rationale behind all MVIs truly sucking - sorry, that's all I got scientifically on that one).

    But the reality is total carnitine concentration not salt-potential so underdosing is a matter of what is trying to be accomnplished. Just because a particular salt hasn't been studied for a particular effect, doesn't mean it is truly underdosed. Look for a remedy to this product very soon (hint).


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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I'm not sure about taking only 500mg vitamin c at a time. I took 1000mg tabs for at least a few months and never had any problem. Where is the proof that 1000mg is pro-oxident?. If it is then how come companies still sell 1000mg tabs?. I've read where people have taking much more than 1000mg at a time to help clear up colds and even cure serious sickness. Just google mega dosing vitamin c.
    The reality is what most physicians know and the lay-population may not...

    Most things are better in the morning anyway!

    Some feel as though doing "nothing," may not be worth the price of admission unfortunately. Is it truly Vitamin C that makes things better? Frankly, if we are talking from an immunity standpoint; I'd megadose Vitamin D and not C in said times as you are already experiencing an increased oxidation while ill anyway.

    D_
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    To be clear, you would never "notice" a problem from pro-oxidation. While I don't see much evidence for vitamin C pro-oxidation besides dose-response curve extrapolations, the bottom line is that if you're supplementing over 500mg in one sitting, you are wasting your vitamin C, as the plasma saturation dose is indeed 500mg (http://www.pl.barc.usda.gov/downloads/jp28.pdf).

    Companies are stupid. People are stupid.
    This is actually a GREAT post!

    Thanks coop!


    D_
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    dinoiii's Avatar
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    Consider the following exchange...

    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post
    Cortisol control on a healthy individual wont translate into fat loss anyway
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxxon View Post
    Could you expand on this please?

    Does that mean that products like LX, Abliderate etc have no effect? That would go against any positive feedback given by healthy individuals.

    Just curious.
    I think there is a distinction that need be made here as people are talking in absolutes and this is becoming untrue by default.

    Cortisol elevation and PERIODS of CONTROLLED catbolism are actually beneficial to fat loss efforts almost directly-proportional to the relative degree of muscle mass. In other words, the more muscular - the more pertinent cortisol control becomes and the dynamic shift in efficacy shifts in accordance with that.

    Protecting muscle mass and its metabolic effects DOES, in fact, appear to trump UNcontrolled catabolism (i.e. - working out in the AM on an empty stomach) which should shift the train of thought in a few ways.

    IF you MUST workout on an empty stomach, then agents like phosphatidylserine or 7-keto DHEA would hold pertinence (I spoke about this on a radio show this past week, which is available on the internet but it may be a competing forum, so for the sake of integrity - I will avoid posting the where). If you can have a pre-workout meal, however, there is probably little added benefit to per-workout cortisol control and the shift becomes one of needed catabolism. Its obvious to me with working with 1000s of individuals worldwide (now in 24 different countries) that people haven't a clue why they embark upon use of a supplement so it is sometimes prematurely dismissed (look at the story behind HMB amongst others, whereas a dose-response curve shifts well above 3 grams in the setting of the more experienced lifter - it just becomes less economical).

    In other words - cortisol CONTROL is important / not cortisol ABOLISHMENT and in some cases, supplementation may be more appropriate. This is the side where the so-called "real world" (and I am not speaking MTV sitcoms) and the "research world" tend to collide.

    Be careful how we're interpreting data please...

    D_
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