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    Thanks mr cooper .

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    Yea, I am also waiting for the report, and your thoughts on the tests performed.
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    I will try and address all of the questions according to my time commitments, but this thread generated an amazing response (much more than I had ever anticipated)...


    The below is an example of an interesting question...

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I love selenium but I have to disagree with a 400mcg dose:

    Dietary Selenium Intake Modulates Thyroid Hormone and Energy Metabolism in Men (weight gain at high doses)
    Effects of Long-Term Selenium Supplementation on the Incidence of Type 2 Diabetes (methodoligically flawed IMO, but still worth noting)

    Any particular reason for exceeding 200mcg?
    I think it is a great question actually.

    This board is HOPEFULLY full of people who are intensely involved in anaerobic (weight/sprint/etc...) training and I will say +/- aerobic training. Not assumed as the generally sedentary lay-population used in said studies unfortunately.

    The rationale is the same reason I hate when people try and apply suggested data on Vitamin E (especially when solely alpha-tocopherol is used as monotherapy).

    Anyway; one must consider the amount of free radical generated on a daily basis (each time you go to the gym, each time you put something in your mouth - healthy or otherwise, oxidizing fat en route to a svelte physique you hold dear, and so on...EVERYTHING generates free radicals). Vitamin E works in synergy with the endogenous antioxidant glutathione to quench lipid peroxidation. But to do so, glutathione needs selenium which "holds" lipid radicals so that glutathione can get a crack at them. Selenium is also required for vitamin E to function properly.

    NOW - ANYTHING (statin drugs, niacin, etc...) that modifies lipids (cholesterol, et al...) WILL alter glucose metabolism to some degree. Its funny how frequent this is forgotten especially by the authors of silly studies suggesting increased incidence of insulin resistance and/or diabetes development when not using clamp studies, but alas I digress.

    Its not much use, however, taking selenium, if you don't have enough glutathione in the first place. Intense exercise (granted, probably 95% of gym-goers, and possibly even a good percentage who read these boards do not really embark on truly "intense" exercsie can deplete muscle glutathione by 40% and liver glutathione (from which the muscles get their refills, like glycogen) by 80%! So, rightfully so - I probably should have suggested some conditions with the dosing of selenium:

    1. Barring you are truly doing "INTENSE" exercise (defined in anaerobic training as HOW close you lift to your 1RM, not by speed...there is a speed component in transitioning from aerobic to anaerobic in what is generally thought of as cardio - a shift from a jog to a sprint).

    2. Fat oxidation is truly something being incorporated into your physique regimen (both on a microscopic level: if you have not had a NMR analysis by Lipo Science and evaluation of your Lp(a) and Homocysteine scores; you won't really be able to identify this -AND- on a macroscopic level: your outward phenotype).

    3. You are somehow regenerating glutathione lost with exercise (which people don't generally put a lot of credence on). What I may have qualified my statement with is use of the generalized antioxidant stack: Selenomethionine + NAC + SAMe (with B Vitamins as co-factors), but there are very few products that would supply this in what I feel people really need.


    While selenium supply isn't necessarily a bad one with most people's diets - let's take bodybuilder modifications: low-carb, cyclical macro, hyper- and hypo-caloric, etc... BUT also consider that selenium is NOT as well-defined in soil and farmer's don't turn profit enough to give a damn on replenishment.

    But, I do appreciate you keeping me honest here. I more than likely should have said that #10 was collectively: Selenomethionine + NAC + SAMe (or TMG I suppose as "poor man's SAMe") + B vitamins (but Bs were already coming in at #1 for so many different co-factor reasons) and barring exercise intensity was up to par (recall that you will harbor some level of insulin resistance - even non-diabetic with as littel as > 48 hours of inactivity; the studies illustrated are not ideal to apply to most I would hope to campaign for on this board.


    On those ingredients left out (i.e. - Fish Oil)...

    I just had to label the Top 10 Supplement ingredients that I think could make impact now, so when people suggest fish oil - I have most (if not all of my clients on it), but I had to separate out what I felt could be obtained by the diet and what could not (at least not in all macronutrient shifts).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kekkuk View Post
    Thanks for the info. I've been waiting on the list.
    Are those doses independent of how much you get from food or total?
    Seems like an obvious answer but my assumptions suck.
    The totals I wrote in were averages I have active clients on. There are some volume of distribution issues and dietary differences I didn't get into because people like to be able to generalize. When we generalize, I go with averages (and this is with over 12,000 clients and probably an additional 2,000 patients in the confides of about 12 years).

    Now, that is IN ADDITION TO foodstuffs as I just don't believe that even in your best efforts could a diet truly supply the appropriate amount of nutrient value (for whatever the reason: nutrients in soil depleted, etc...).


    Quote Originally Posted by rugger48 View Post
    No fish oil in your top 10 doc?
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I think he's assuming we are eating diets rich in fatty fish.

    mr.cooper is essentially spot on. I would say about 95% of clients and patients are on some form of fish oil product and if there was a top 15, fish oil would be included EVEN when you can get it from foodstuffs.


    Quote Originally Posted by monstermash View Post
    Good then I'm pretty much set for supps besides my preworkouts here and there... BUT I need a good Co-enzyme B complex. REPS for quality suggestions (no reps for duplicates).

    Ubiquininol 200mg/day *may up it to 400mg in the future
    MCC and/or creatine nitrate 3-5g/day
    ZMK (MST) 200mcg selenium + 500mg magnesium
    ALCAR/LCLT/GPLC/PLCAR 6g/day I started to rotate between all these with 1 month breaks after two months on
    Ajipure L-Leucine 10g+/day 6g postworkout w/40g isolate and the rest with a shake during the day. Plan on capping some to take with meals
    Buffered Vit C (now foods) have to cap it myself soon but been using here and there but not near workout.
    Beta-alanine/ COP Gonna rotate between the two. Cycling on and off... 2months on 1 off.
    *need to pick up new B complex Open to suggestions
    Not starting curcumin yet...

    **other staples
    Lovaza (4g) and Neptune Krill Oil (500mg-1g).
    Lovaza and NKO, why both; much of the O3 benefit goes away beyond 4 grams combined EPA/DHA?


    I recommend Jarrow B Right as well - to all of my clients due to cost effiency, etc...




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    Swanson just released a new "activated b complex." $17.99 for 60caps.

    1 capsule contains:
    Thiamin (vitamin B-1) (as benfotiamine) 54.4 mg 3,627%
    Riboflavin (as riboflavin 5'-phosphate) 50 mg 2,941%
    Niacin (as inositol hexanicotinate) 100 mg 500%
    Vitamin B-6(as pyridoxal 5-phosphate) 50 mg 2,500%
    Folate (as Quatrefolic® [6S]-5-Methyltetrahydrofolic acid equivalent to 1.6 mcg of [6S]-5-Methyltetrahydrofolic acid, glucosamine salt) 800 mcg 200%
    Vitamin B-12(as methylcobalamin) 500 mcg 8,333%
    Biotin 50 mcg 17%
    Choline(as choline dihydrogen citrate) 50 mg *
    PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid) 50 mg *
    Pantethine (coenzyme A precursor)(from Pantesin® 80% pantethine) 50 mg *
    Inositol(from inositol hexanicotinate) 25 mg *
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Wow I had the thread open for a while before posting so I never realized that you basically posted the exact same thing before me .

    The source naturals product looks solid, and I suspect that the sublingual delivery will aid particularly with the b-12, as oral bioavailability isn't the best and instrinsic factor is limiting.
    I don't necessarily agree with the comments on oral bioavailability namely because when compared in Vitamin B12 deficient individuals...oral route administration regulates serum levels of both vitamin B12 and methylmalonic acid on the same level as the INTRAMUSCULAR route. I think all this suggestion of sublingual is hogwash actually and only supported by funded research of vested groups.

    If I were presented at the office with a patient who was truly B12 deficient; I usually prescribe 3-5 days of IM injection followed by chronic methylcobalamin therapy (usually in the form of Metanx so I can guarantee where the person is getting their supplemental source of MB12). The 3-5 days is NOT, however, because it is absorbed any better per se and/or that it would correct the deficiency any better, but it does increase the serum level in the acute setting of a week - and if the patient is symptomatic ONLY would I waste their money on any reason to employ this type of said dosing. Symptoms are usually in the form of paresthesia (numbness and tingling kind of like beta-alanine but they do not go away and in diabetics - it is often mistaken and written off as peripheral neuropathy). One must be very careful, however, that you not overdo Vitamin B6 therapies either as there is a true OPTIMIZATION curve that exists for this vitamin where you get paresthesia with too little and too much of the vitamin.


    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    Doc, I'm curious what your thoughts are on dosing any of these if you've had blood tests without dosing them that show levels at normal and/or optimal levels.

    I mainly ask about selenium, though I'm curious about magnesium, as well. I've had serum tests on both and they're both pretty much where I'd want to see them. However, I know there has always been debate from different doctors on proper ways to measure different things; i.e. is the best test urine, or blood or hair or saliva? And the reason I mention selenium is because I have Hashimoto's and I know adding in certain minerals can provide the opposite of the desired effect.

    If my blood work shows:

    Magnesium - 1.9mg/dL (ref: 1.8 - 2.5)
    Selenium - 151 ug/L (ref: 23-190)
    Zinc - 91 ug/dL (ref 60-120)

    What are your thoughts (as these levels are only from what I obtain via diet and a multi-vitamin)?
    We do have a mineral panel we use in the office, but it is not supported by everyone and you can, unfortunately NOT generalize results across different assays, HOWEVER, I do not think there is a lot that can be told from it, so it is reserved for very specific patients and honestly Hashimoto's or any other thyroid illness is not one of them. Make sure that whoever suggested you get it done for that condition doesn't have some level of vested interest in a worthless assay. Mineral levels change minute-to-minute.


    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    RBC test for zinc and magnesium, not serum.
    If our only choices are serum and RBC test - then sure, I suppose it is "better."

    Some might suggest that in the advent of sublingual epithelial cell testing, both of the former will be left in the dust though.

    But again, mineral testing is not generally the best mode of testing deficiencies or adequacies - it is actually through end organ effects (which is done on a CLINICAL assessment, however, good luck to you in finding a physician good at the physical exam any more).



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    I feel like I should be paying you. Thanks, again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Dr. Houser,

    What are your thoughts on the following study

    PubMed Abstract
    Full Text

    It seems convention has been not to combine the two. Yet you recommend a combination of the 3. With recent consideration to add the carnitines to my daily regimine, I am curious of your thoughts on the matter.
    Depends upon goal: predilection for the following...

    1) LCLT - androgen receptor
    2) PLC - Cardiovascular
    3) ALCAR - Cerebrovascular / Neurovascular

    If simply for general health, a combination of the three with focus on all of the studied parameters - a little attenuation of levels is one thing, an omission is another.


    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    Also, if you could I would be interested in your thoughts on supplementing with Choline in conjunction with Carnitine supplements. For reference:

    Abstract
    Full Text (Warning: PDF)
    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    I just posted that a couple days ago in another thread.. Thanks for the full paper

    And another one - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7616311/

    And this one seems to suggest that the combination of carnitine and choline would be a nice combination for fat loss

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12514272/
    Choline is a great combo - again, like the Selenium / NAC / SAMe / B Complex before it; this may certainly be a combo to propose if I weren't doing single nutrients (actually, the combination of many different nutrients can assist absorption of virtually everything in the top 10). Maybe we could suggest lower dosing of carnitine salts with choline in combination here as opposed to it as a side bar.


    Quote Originally Posted by keyser View Post
    I take ginger and R-ALA every day. Are they far from making to the top10 list?
    I am unsure about ginger (maybe my top 25), but ALA absolutely - top 15.


    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    1. fish oil
    2. ubiquinol
    3. vit C or ascorbyl palmitate
    4. resveratrol
    5. Rainbow lite men's multi
    6. natural beta carotinoid mix
    7. zinc
    8. magnesium
    9. potassium bicarbonate
    10. beta alanine, choline, and or ALCAR-fumarate generally in rotation and not all at once.

    11. HCG, lol
    Nice list - outside of the multi IMO.


    Quote Originally Posted by Craigmatthew View Post
    Dr, really enjoyed reading your posts over the years.

    Not sure if this has been addressed so apologies if I have missed it. Im really looking for your optimal dosing of ala , agmatine and l-carnitine through out the day. ( ideally for body composition purposes)

    Thanks
    L-carnitine (free form); I do not recommend. The salts - 2 grams of each (if you can find them all...becomming harder and harder).

    Agmatine - depends on goal; what are you using it for?

    R-ALA is to Na-R-ALA about a 2:1 ratio, so if you use say 600 mg of R-ALA, then I would say use 300 mg of Na-R-ALA for equivalency. The reason for using this is reflected in my recommendations: If using it for general antioxidant - probably 100-300mg is sufficient. If using it for glycemic variation attenuation - minimally double that number at 300-600 mg (for some very insulin resistant, probably even upwards of 3 times the dose or 900 mg) spread over the larger meals of the day (B/L/D).


    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    300-600mg of R-ALA (hopefully salt stabilized).
    750mg-1g agmatine.
    2g of carnitine.
    Essentially yes - see above.



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    Noted on the b12 comment. Expect a PM for more info...I am, in fact, a genetically b12-deficient individual and do get treatment (intrinsic factor deficiency).
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    Thank you for your time Doc.
    Just inject.
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    Nice posts doc!

    Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Depends upon goal: predilection for the following...

    1) LCLT - androgen receptor
    2) PLC - Cardiovascular
    3) ALCAR - Cerebrovascular / Neurovascular

    If simply for general health, a combination of the three with focus on all of the studied parameters - a little attenuation of levels is one thing, an omission is another.






    Choline is a great combo - again, like the Selenium / NAC / SAMe / B Complex before it; this may certainly be a combo to propose if I weren't doing single nutrients (actually, the combination of many different nutrients can assist absorption of virtually everything in the top 10). Maybe we could suggest lower dosing of carnitine salts with choline in combination here as opposed to it as a side bar.




    I am unsure about ginger (maybe my top 25), but ALA absolutely - top 15.




    Nice list - outside of the multi IMO.




    L-carnitine (free form); I do not recommend. The salts - 2 grams of each (if you can find them all...becomming harder and harder).

    Agmatine - depends on goal; what are you using it for?

    R-ALA is to Na-R-ALA about a 2:1 ratio, so if you use say 600 mg of R-ALA, then I would say use 300 mg of Na-R-ALA for equivalency. The reason for using this is reflected in my recommendations: If using it for general antioxidant - probably 100-300mg is sufficient. If using it for glycemic variation attenuation - minimally double that number at 300-600 mg (for some very insulin resistant, probably even upwards of 3 times the dose or 900 mg) spread over the larger meals of the day (B/L/D).




    Essentially yes - see above.



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    Thanks for taking the time to write such detailed replies, it certainly helps.

    1) LCLT - androgen receptor
    2) PLC - Cardiovascular
    3) ALCAR - Cerebrovascular / Neurovascular

    As Above ^^ would you suggest 2g's daily of each? Divided dosages?

    Agmatine, using it alongside ALA for two benefits, body composition and pumps pre workout.

    I will ditch the ALA and look to invest in R-ALA or NA-R-ALA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craigmatthew View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to write such detailed replies, it certainly helps.

    1) LCLT - androgen receptor
    2) PLC - Cardiovascular
    3) ALCAR - Cerebrovascular / Neurovascular

    As Above ^^ would you suggest 2g's daily of each? Divided dosages?

    Agmatine, using it alongside ALA for two benefits, body composition and pumps pre workout.

    I will ditch the ALA and look to invest in R-ALA or NA-R-ALA.
    Good man. I am in disagreement with dinoiii in that the true benefit of LCLT is effects on recovery (of which increased AR density is actually a product). A great addition to any athlete/weightlifter's stack. 1-2g (and up to 4g) of LCLT have been proven effective, and 2g for PLCAR and ALCAR.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Good man. I am in disagreement with dinoiii in that the true benefit of LCLT is effects on recovery (of which increased AR density is actually a product). A great addition to any athlete/weightlifter's stack. 1-2g (and up to 4g) of LCLT have been proven effective, and 2g for PLCAR and ALCAR.
    Thanks for you help as well brother, i do appreciate it. Looking forward to the LCLT, PLC and ALCAR arriving so I can begin dosing them and see what additional benefits they can give me.

    Pretty excited as well to move away from straight ALA and more towards R-ALA at least and see what sort of recomp I get from it, I guess the anti-oxidant properties are fantastic as well and the more I read about this stack the greater it all seems.

    Strangely since using ALA + Agmatine and L-Carnitine, my body fat has reduced significantly on the same diet. I am VERY impressed how quickly this has all happened and certainly will be recommending this as a fantastic recomp stack in the future. The exciting part about it all is the stack is actually HEALTHY for you, rather than using a hormonal product to recomp.
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    On a side note the combo of ALA + Agmatine + L-Carnitine is giving me some REALLY deep sleeps and vivid dreams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craigmatthew

    Thanks for you help as well brother, i do appreciate it. Looking forward to the LCLT, PLC and ALCAR arriving so I can begin dosing them and see what additional benefits they can give me.

    Pretty excited as well to move away from straight ALA and more towards R-ALA at least and see what sort of recomp I get from it, I guess the anti-oxidant properties are fantastic as well and the more I read about this stack the greater it all seems.

    Strangely since using ALA + Agmatine and L-Carnitine, my body fat has reduced significantly on the same diet. I am VERY impressed how quickly this has all happened and certainly will be recommending this as a fantastic recomp stack in the future. The exciting part about it all is the stack is actually HEALTHY for you, rather than using a hormonal product to recomp.
    Just regular carnitine with the ala and ag?
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    Yup just regular carnitine, although due to the above recommendations I have gone with a few different forms.
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    What are your thoughts on chlorella and beta-glucans?
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    Sorry if redundant, but I wad reading about possible oxidation when using acetyl l-catnitine and using lipoic acids(preferably na-rala) to combat this would be ideal. I was wondering if NAC(600mg) and vitamin C(500mg) twice a day would be enough to combat this since I do not have the aforementioned(money is tight right now)?
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post
    Sorry if redundant, but I wad reading about possible oxidation when using acetyl l-catnitine and using lipoic acids(preferably na-rala) to combat this would be ideal. I was wondering if NAC(500mg) and vitamin C(500mg) twice a day would be enough to combat this since I do not have the aforementioned(money is tight right now)?
    I would say that since what the doc says is a good single dose for vitamin C would be good to take a couple times as opposed to not taking it at all.
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    Dr. Hauser, thanks for your information on some very critical things. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread as well. This is probably the best thread I have read in a long time for someone who is looking to create or reassess one's supplement regimen. For the longest time I have been focusing too much on what supplement will aid my strength, mass, and get me ripped, etc. However, I think too many times I have walked right by (or moved the cursor past) the necessities and went right for the ergos.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green
    I would say that since what the doc says is a good single dose for vitamin C would be good to take a couple times as opposed to not taking it at all.
    My question isn't really so much on vitamin c. I appreciate the response.

    As I have been reading I see it theorized that some form of ala is beneficial to take along side alcar due...form a type of mitochondrial powerhouse. The theory(if I am understanding it) is that even though alcar is an antioxidant its break down of fats can cause some type of oxidation. Ala(and subtypes) are mitochondria based antioxidants that can prevent and percieved harm from the alcar; ala can get anywhere is the cell due to being water and fat soluble(plus it regenerates c + e). Also, I have been reading it has some synergy in anti aging possibly.

    So the thoughts on the theory of aclar/ala combo is what I am after. Is this a pb&j combo? Lol

    Edit:^^^can relate to above post
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post
    My question isn't really so much on vitamin c. I appreciate the response.

    As I have been reading I see it theorized that some form of ala is beneficial to take along side alcar due...form a type of mitochondrial powerhouse. The theory(if I am understanding it) is that even though alcar is an antioxidant its break down of fats can cause some type of oxidation. Ala(and subtypes) are mitochondria based antioxidants that can prevent and percieved harm from the alcar; ala can get anywhere is the cell due to being water and fat soluble(plus it regenerates c + e). Also, I have been reading it has some synergy in anti aging possibly.

    So the thoughts on the theory of aclar/ala combo is what I am after. Is this a pb&j combo? Lol

    Edit:^^^can relate to above post
    No problem. I found an article real fast that I read a while ago about ALCAR and ALA synergy, so I'll post up. ALCAR is also synergistic with a good choline source. I know that a lot of good B complexes have choline in it, so since it's recommended to take B vitamins multiple times a day, I'm going to look for a good coenzymate B formula with choline citrate or bitartrate.

    ALA may synergize with ALCAR and further increase exercise performance in two ways. First, it may increase glucose transport to muscle, particularly because exercise is associated with a high degree of oxidative stress. Secondly, ALA and ALCAR may synergize to increase fatty acid utilization and cellular energy production.

    A second benefit of ALCAR is fat loss. Studies in animals have found it to decrease fat mass and/or increase lean mass, as well as blunt the age-related increase in fat cell size. In a study in humans, 700 mg carnitine and 900 mg choline caused a significant decrease in body fat. Once again, ALA may synergize by improving mitochondrial function and fatty acid oxidation, as well as having a positive nutrient partitioning effect when used around exercise.

    In the area of anti-aging research, Dr. Bruce Ames has had very promising results with this combination of nutrients. Mitochondrial damage is a significant factor in the aging process, and ALCAR greatly improves mitochondrial function when given to old rats. Along with this comes improved short term memory and cognitive function, an effect that has also been observed when elderly humans are given ALCAR. However, Dr. Ames also found that when rodents were given high (but not low) doses of ALCAR, hepatic antioxidant status was lowered. ALA prevented this, and also caused an even further improvement in mitochondrial function.

    Clearly, this blend of powerful nutrients has a variety of uses. Some other supplements, such as choline and antioxidant vitamins, may provide added benefit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green
    No problem. I found an article real fast that I read a while ago about ALCAR and ALA synergy, so I'll post up. ALCAR is also synergistic with a good choline source. I know that a lot of good B complexes have choline in it, so since it's recommended to take B vitamins multiple times a day, I'm going to look for a good coenzymate B formula with choline citrate or bitartrate.
    Very interesting stuff. I also was gonna switch to b-complex to save money, and to be effective. Finding one with a good dose of choline would be nice.

    I never even thought about that 3rd type of synergy. Basically, since ala(na-rala preferred) can act as a GDA, and l-carnitine metabolizes fats, does that mean(what the article is saying) this could function in increased fat loss(not weight)?

    It is late, so I am not very sharp right now. Will read again tomorrow and try to read up more. Thank you sir.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post
    Very interesting stuff. I also was gonna switch to b-complex to save money, and to be effective. Finding one with a good dose of choline would be nice.

    I never even thought about that 3rd type of synergy. Basically, since ala(na-rala preferred) can act as a GDA, and l-carnitine metabolizes fats, does that mean(what the article is saying) this could function in increased fat loss(not weight)?

    It is late, so I am not very sharp right now. Will read again tomorrow and try to read up more. Thank you sir.
    Here's a very interesting article that goes over a lot of what was discussed here throughout the many pages and it talks about the anti-catabolic activity of anti-oxidants in general (though ALA has good GDA and repartitioning effects as well).

    Vitamin C is by far the most known anti-cortisol vitamin contributing to anti-catabolic effects on muscle metabolism. But there are other anti-oxidants, such as R-Alpha Lipoic Acid or R-ALA. Although not considered an anti-catabolic, it contributes to anti-catabolism and muscle cell preservation through both its potent anti-oxidant and repartitioning activities. The very fact that it alone minimizes the oxidation-related damage done to cells upon transferring amino acids through the cell membrane and increasing myocyte or muscle cell storage capacity is sufficient to extrapolate its contribution to the anabolic process. Its anti-oxidant properties contribute directly to anti-catabolism, while its partitioning mechanism is directly anabolic. Growth can be attained and consistently maintained through natural means now more so than ever before. Many times natural alternatives to high-risk anabolics are overlooked and type-casted as being comparatively ineffective, since they are seen as less effective. It is this disconnect that holds back or blocks the consideration that new improvements are also being discovered among natural sources identified for supporting lean mass development through anti-catabolic means. Supplement users can create a significant level of nutritional leverage stacking Vitamin C with Vitamins E and K, and spacing out multi-tab or multi-cap B-Complex formulas throughout the day - taking them only with meals, as needed. Vitamin C may be the most versatile and direct of mainstream vitamin sources that contribute to muscle preservation. Even for joint preservation over time, Vitamins C and D can help to mitigate the damaging effects of glucocorticoids on ligament and cartilage tissue. But in that case, they are best stacked with CISSUS for joint repair and cortisol reduction, and Vitamin C should be stacked with HMB, KIC, and/or BCAAs for maximum anti-catabolic effect. Recognizing that mainstream vitamins and minerals (i.e., zinc chelate for maximum absorption and testosterone recovery from intense training) add value to muscle preservation and directed anabolism is what's required to move on towards stacking with specialty anti-catabolics, rather than consuming them in isolation.

    The anabolic effects of allowing growth to occur through a safe anti-catabolic pathway occur in increments so small that they appear only linear in scope. In fact, the difference between using mainstream vitamins to support anabolism strategically and not doing so, is the scaled net effect of their inclusion in the overall stack long before diminishing returns set in. In other words, results are ensured.

    Recommended Ingredients:

    1. Vitamin C - required for connective tissue production and maintenance - (3-10 grams per day)
    2. BCAA - anti-catabolism, amino acid retention effects bypass liver, assists recovery
    3. HMB - anti-catabolism, cell wall strengthener, amino acid retention, strength, recovery, growth, repartitions lipids into intramuscular fat
    4. R-Alpha Lipoic Acid - potent antioxidant, repartitioning agent, fat loss
    5. Vitamins A,C,D,E - anti-oxidants, collagen formation (C), skin repair (A,C,E), bone health (C, D)
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    Noted for future comment. Many misconceptions in today's posts
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    Noted for future comment. Many misconceptions in today's posts
    I've always wondered taking rala near the workout. The anti oxidant properties would hinder some of the oxidative stress that is caused via exercise and not facilitate the desired anabolic response right? Ive always taken alcar, lclt, and rala pre workout.. Should i limit it to just the carnitines?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    Noted for future comment. Many misconceptions in today's posts
    I tried to start this conversation elsewhere too, and not a lot to be said. Very vague answers. Your thoughts on their synergy, or lack there of would be much appreciated.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Noted for future comment. Many misconceptions in today's posts
    If I am wrong, please correct me so I can adjust the list for future supplements. I am just reading page after page after page of conflicting facts and opinions. For example, I read about the cortisol blunting effects of 1 gram of vitamin C post workout, so I take an Emergen C, but now I guess by doing that I may be damaging myself even further?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green
    If I am wrong, please correct me so I can adjust the list for future supplements. I am just reading page after page after page of conflicting facts and opinions. For example, I read about the cortisol blunting effects of 1 gram of vitamin C post workout, so I take an Emergen C, but now I guess by doing that I may be damaging myself even further?
    I think it is correlated with the adaption to exercise. meaning the bodys natural response and sequence is being manipulated so adaption is thus adjusted. I have always wondered about all this as well. Sometimes taking all the extra supports might be blunting progress.
    But I can only guess, as I am not a researcher.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    Here's a very interesting article that goes over a lot of what was discussed here throughout the many pages and it talks about the anti-catabolic activity of anti-oxidants in general (though ALA has good GDA and repartitioning effects as well).
    Let's start with the post you quoted:

    Vitamin C will not lower cortisol in healthy individuals who are not participating in strenuous endurance activities or facing some sort of strong external stressor (i.e. running a marathon). Vitamin C is a great antioxidant, but not for cortisol control. The conclusion that R-ALA (nevermind that they didn't use Na-RLA) is anabolic is also a poor extrapolation. The improved insulin sensitivity and activity in the mitochondria is once again great, but not for the reasons the author mentions. The terms "recovery", "anti-catabolic," and "anabolism" are thrown around very haphazardly. Here are my edited ingredients:

    Recommended Ingredients:

    1. Vitamin C - required for connective tissue production and maintenance - 500mg doses (plasma saturation) taken with meals. Not to be taken within 4 hours of training UNLESS using nitrates, in which 500mg should be taken preworkout to inhibit gastric nitrosation.
    2. Leucine - Forget BCAAs and HMB. Leucine is a far more efficient way to acquire the desired response on MPS. 0.045g/kg BW taken at once, 2 or more hours postprandially.
    4. Na-R-Alpha Lipoic Acid - potent antioxidant, repartitioning agent
    5. Refer to my Post in "How to Construct a Basic Stack" and read up on the ACES protocol:
    How to Construct a Basic Supplement Stack. FYI, we are posting in the section of the man who made ACES what it is.

    The 1 gram of vitamin C postworkout is actually hindering your progress for 2 reasons:

    1. It is above the plasma saturation dose and thus a waste.
    2. There is a decent body of evidence suggesting that periworkout Vitamin C consumption hinders hypertrophy and long-term performance.
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post
    I tried to start this conversation elsewhere too, and not a lot to be said. Very vague answers. Your thoughts on their synergy, or lack there of would be much appreciated.
    ALCAR and R-ALA complement each other as antioxidants, but the primary reason the two are recommended together is due to consistent synergistic effects that have been observed by Dr. Ames, namely these 3 studies:

    Hagen TM, Liu J, Lykkesfeldt J, Wehr CM, Ingersoll RT, Vinarsky V, Bartholomew JC, Ames BN. Feeding acetyl-L-carnitine and lipoic acid to old rats significantly improves metabolic function while decreasing oxidative stress. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2002;99:1870-5.

    Liu J, Head E, Gharib AM, Yuan W, Ingersoll RT, Hagen TM, Cotman CW, Ames BN. Memory loss in old rats is associated with brain mitochondrial decay and RNA/DNA oxidation: Partial reversal by feeding acetyl-L-carnitine and/or R-α-lipoic acid. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2002;99:2356-61.

    Liu J, Killilea D, Ames BN. Age-associated mitochondrial oxidative decay: Improvement of carnitine acetyltransferase substrate binding affinity and activity in brain by feeding old rats acetyl-L-carnitine and/or R-α-lipoic acid. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2002;99:1876-81.




    What has often gotten misconstrued is that ALA can prevent the pro-oxidative effects of ALCAR. And in fact, it can reduce ALCAR-induced ROS and has been proven to do so. So why is this not important? ALCAR was shown to generate ROS at high doses. You should be using 2g/day anyway so this should be a non-issue, especially if you are cycling off alcar every few months.

    There are other studies that have examined the two in conjunction, but as is often the case, the research has not quite reached humans as of yet:

    R-alpha-lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine complementarily promote mitochondrial biogenesis in murine 3T3-L1 adipocytes.

    Combined R-alpha-lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine exerts efficient preventative effects in a cellular model of Parkinson's disease

    From the latter study, check out the abstract:

    Mitochondrial dysfunction and oxidative damage are highly involved in the pathogenesis of Parkinson's disease (PD). Some mitochondrial antioxidants/nutrients that can improve mitochondrial function and/or attenuate oxidative damage have been implicated in PD therapy. However, few studies have evaluated the preventative effects of a combination of mitochondrial antioxidants/nutrients against PD, and even fewer have sought to optimize the doses of the combined agents. The present study examined the preventative effects of two mitochondrial antioxidant/nutrients, R-alpha-lipoic acid (LA) and acetyl-L-carnitine (ALC), in a chronic rotenone-induced cellular model of PD. We demonstrated that 4-week pretreatment with LA and/or ALC effectively protected SK-N-MC human neuroblastoma cells against rotenone-induced mitochondrial dysfunction, oxidative damage and accumulation of alpha-synuclein and ubiquitin. Most notably, we found that when combined, LA and ALC worked at 100-1000-fold lower concentrations than they did individually. We also found that pretreatment with combined LA and ALC increased mitochondrial biogenesis and decreased production of reactive oxygen species through the up-regulation of the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma coactivator 1alpha as a possible underlying mechanism. This study provides important evidence that combining mitochondrial antioxidant/nutrients at optimal doses might be an effective and safe prevention strategy for PD.


    As you can see, a synergistic effect has been consistently reported between the two antioxidants, and thus I would recommend taking them together (though not at EXACTLY the same time because ALCAR will polymerize with Na-R-ALA; take the Na-R-ALA 30 minutes prior to ingesting ALCAR). Add agmatine to that stack as well, take it first thing in the morning, and reap the benefits.
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Let's start with the post you quoted:

    Vitamin C will not lower cortisol in healthy individuals who are not participating in strenuous endurance activities or facing some sort of strong external stressor (i.e. running a marathon). Vitamin C is a great antioxidant, but not for cortisol control. The conclusion that R-ALA (nevermind that they didn't use Na-RLA) is anabolic is also a poor extrapolation. The improved insulin sensitivity and activity in the mitochondria is once again great, but not for the reasons the author mentions. The terms "recovery", "anti-catabolic," and "anabolism" are thrown around very haphazardly. Here are my edited ingredients:

    Recommended Ingredients:

    1. Vitamin C - required for connective tissue production and maintenance - 500mg doses (plasma saturation) taken with meals. Not to be taken within 4 hours of training UNLESS using nitrates, in which 500mg should be taken preworkout to inhibit gastric nitrosation.
    2. Leucine - Forget BCAAs and HMB. Leucine is a far more efficient way to acquire the desired response on MPS. 0.045g/kg BW taken at once, 2 or more hours postprandially.
    4. Na-R-Alpha Lipoic Acid - potent antioxidant, repartitioning agent
    5. Refer to my Post in "How to Construct a Basic Stack" and read up on the ACES protocol:
    How to Construct a Basic Supplement Stack. FYI, we are posting in the section of the man who made ACES what it is.

    The 1 gram of vitamin C postworkout is actually hindering your progress for 2 reasons:

    1. It is above the plasma saturation dose and thus a waste.
    2. There is a decent body of evidence suggesting that periworkout Vitamin C consumption hinders hypertrophy and long-term performance.
    LOL. I'm about to give up on supplements! Everything I read is a conflict


    Thanks for the info though. I don't actually use much anymore, but am looking to put together an all around vitamin/mineral stack for health, anti-aging, and wellness so this helps out a lot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    LOL. I'm about to give up on supplements! Everything I read is a conflict


    Thanks for the info though. I don't actually use much anymore, but am looking to put together an all around vitamin/mineral stack for health, anti-aging, and wellness so this helps out a lot.
    I think ACES along with ALCAR, Agmatine, Ubiquinol, and Na-R-ALA are right up your alley then.
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69

    ALCAR and R-ALA complement each other as antioxidants, but the primary reason the two are recommended together is due to consistent synergistic effects that have been observed by Dr. Ames, namely these 3 studies:

    Hagen TM, Liu J, Lykkesfeldt J, Wehr CM, Ingersoll RT, Vinarsky V, Bartholomew JC, Ames BN. Feeding acetyl-L-carnitine and lipoic acid to old rats significantly improves metabolic function while decreasing oxidative stress. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2002;99:1870-5.

    Liu J, Head E, Gharib AM, Yuan W, Ingersoll RT, Hagen TM, Cotman CW, Ames BN. Memory loss in old rats is associated with brain mitochondrial decay and RNA/DNA oxidation: Partial reversal by feeding acetyl-L-carnitine and/or R-?-lipoic acid. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2002;99:2356-61.

    Liu J, Killilea D, Ames BN. Age-associated mitochondrial oxidative decay: Improvement of carnitine acetyltransferase substrate binding affinity and activity in brain by feeding old rats acetyl-L-carnitine and/or R-?-lipoic acid. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2002;99:1876-81.


    What has often gotten misconstrued is that ALA can prevent the pro-oxidative effects of ALCAR. And in fact, it can reduce ALCAR-induced ROS and has been proven to do so. So why is this not important? ALCAR was shown to generate ROS at high doses. You should be using 2g/day anyway so this should be a non-issue, especially if you are cycling off alcar every few months.

    There are other studies that have examined the two in conjunction, but as is often the case, the research has not quite reached humans as of yet:

    R-alpha-lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine complementarily promote mitochondrial biogenesis in murine 3T3-L1 adipocytes.

    Combined R-alpha-lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine exerts efficient preventative effects in a cellular model of Parkinson's disease

    From the latter study, check out the abstract:

    Mitochondrial dysfunction and oxidative damage are highly involved in the pathogenesis of Parkinson's disease (PD). Some mitochondrial antioxidants/nutrients that can improve mitochondrial function and/or attenuate oxidative damage have been implicated in PD therapy. However, few studies have evaluated the preventative effects of a combination of mitochondrial antioxidants/nutrients against PD, and even fewer have sought to optimize the doses of the combined agents. The present study examined the preventative effects of two mitochondrial antioxidant/nutrients, R-alpha-lipoic acid (LA) and acetyl-L-carnitine (ALC), in a chronic rotenone-induced cellular model of PD. We demonstrated that 4-week pretreatment with LA and/or ALC effectively protected SK-N-MC human neuroblastoma cells against rotenone-induced mitochondrial dysfunction, oxidative damage and accumulation of alpha-synuclein and ubiquitin. Most notably, we found that when combined, LA and ALC worked at 100-1000-fold lower concentrations than they did individually. We also found that pretreatment with combined LA and ALC increased mitochondrial biogenesis and decreased production of reactive oxygen species through the up-regulation of the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma coactivator 1alpha as a possible underlying mechanism. This study provides important evidence that combining mitochondrial antioxidant/nutrients at optimal doses might be an effective and safe prevention strategy for PD.


    As you can see, a synergistic effect has been consistently reported between the two antioxidants, and thus I would recommend taking them together (though not at EXACTLY the same time because ALCAR will polymerize with Na-R-ALA; take the Na-R-ALA 30 minutes prior to ingesting ALCAR). Add agmatine to that stack as well, take it first thing in the morning, and reap the benefits.
    Wow, awesome info. My question is answered finally. Already have bulk agmatine and alcar, so I just gotta get the na-r-ala. I really appreciate it man.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
    "Train like a beast, think like a human"-RTS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ev52 View Post
    Swanson just released a new "activated b complex." $17.99 for 60caps.

    1 capsule contains:
    Thiamin (vitamin B-1) (as benfotiamine) 54.4 mg 3,627%
    Riboflavin (as riboflavin 5'-phosphate) 50 mg 2,941%
    Niacin (as inositol hexanicotinate) 100 mg 500%
    Vitamin B-6(as pyridoxal 5-phosphate) 50 mg 2,500%
    Folate (as Quatrefolic® [6S]-5-Methyltetrahydrofolic acid equivalent to 1.6 mcg of [6S]-5-Methyltetrahydrofolic acid, glucosamine salt) 800 mcg 200%
    Vitamin B-12(as methylcobalamin) 500 mcg 8,333%
    Biotin 50 mcg 17%
    Choline(as choline dihydrogen citrate) 50 mg *
    PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid) 50 mg *
    Pantethine (coenzyme A precursor)(from Pantesin® 80% pantethine) 50 mg *
    Inositol(from inositol hexanicotinate) 25 mg *

    Hey Force of Green this seems to best Coenzyme B formula out there.
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    Jarrow's B-Right complex is pretty solid also and is very reasonable

    Quote Originally Posted by koi1214 View Post
    Hey Force of Green this seems to best Coenzyme B formula out there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by msucurt View Post
    Jarrow's B-Right complex is pretty solid also and is very reasonable
    Thanks Koi and MSUcurt. I like the profile of both. I put together a very solid stack of kinda everything that this thread has come to somewhat agree on as far as anti-oxidants. I think NP is probably the best site for ergogenic and bodybuilding products, though I added up all the following supplements from another site and most are the brand Vitacost, which I have had great luck with their products in the past. For under 250 dollars I have a lot of the product that will last over a year of staples.

    Vitamin D3
    Chelated zinc (Albion tm)
    Chelated selenium (Albion tm)
    Tri-Iodine
    Alcar
    NA-R-ALA
    Vitamin C w/ bioflavinoids
    Coenzyme B complex
    Curcumin w/ bioperine
    Chelated Calcium (Albion) and chelated magnesium (Albion) w/ D3
    Standardized pine bark extract
    Astaxanthin (Biostin tm)
    Standardized hawthorne extract
    Grape seed extact (Activin tm)
    Green tea extract for 98% polyphenols, 50% egcg
    Carotene complex with pro vitamin A

    If I updated the quantities to the specified amounts that would give me enough to dose certain things 3-4 times a day (vitamin C, GTE, a couple more) I would spend about an extract 140. 400 dollars for a full year supply of these (about a the cost of a drink from a vending machine) is pretty damned good to me. One order would take care of that and then I could worry about the ergogenic stuff (of course there are other benefits to them) later on. Like for me it would be:

    Creatine (Cre-02)
    DAA (Testforce 2)
    Beta Alanine (Peak Beta)
    Pregnenolone and DHEA (Andro Drive)
    *I honestly feel too damned good on Andro Drive and when I let myself run out, the sudden discontinuation of the pregnenolone set me right
    back to where I was before and I was in a time of extremely high stress.

    Oh and as far as ubiquinOL, I would consider it worth it to me to spend 45 dollars a month for 60 caps of 200mg of Kaneka Ubiquinol and just take 2 a day.

    edit: I forgot to mention that I have a few Toco 8s.
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