Top 10 Supplements

[Vegking]

Reps for the EVCO! I wouldnt even thought to add that and I use it just about everyday from cooking to shaving! Definitely a necessity for me!!

What is EVCO? Is that coconut oil or a certain type of coconut oil?

[dinoiii]

What is EVCO? Is that coconut oil or a certain type of coconut oil?

Extra-Virgin Coconut Oil



D_

[Vegking]

crap, I'm a little slow on the uptake, I should have figured that out. thanks man.

[counterspy]

First off, I want to thank the Dr. for providing all of this information and insight. This forum is why I decided to register after years of periodic lurking. That being said, I like what I've read and plan to make some adjustments to my supplement stash to better reflect some of these choices. My priority is general well-being, since I appear to have genetics that the longevity people crave and now I am embracing it. However, I'm still a slight-built, slightly fat man who looks like a kid, so the 2nd goal is to promote fat loss. Tertiary goal is brain/memory from nootropics.

Alright, so now I have some questions regarding a few things.

1) We've mentioned Fish Oils / Omega 3's. Can you elaborate on differences between your typical fish oil capsules, krill oil, and others? For example, I'm confused by krill oil and its supposed less is more when compared to fish oil. Its EPA/DHA is much, much less, but claimed to be more readily absorbed and/or effective. Currently, I take 1 gram of Now KO, but still use a regular fish oil. At the very least, it has a little astaxanthin but I found some suppliers that provide that in 10mg softgels.

2) I saw mention of lecithin, and naturally, phosphatidylcholine. I am turned on by choline because of purported benefits to mind and fat loss. For those pursuits, which form(s) are best? Lecithin, choline citrate, choline bitartrate, phosphatidyl choline, or other?

3) Quercetin, bromelain, bioperine, naringin. I have a curcumin supp that bundles bioperine, but I am curious if any of the other compounds here help (or hinder) absorption of things like curcumin, Ursobolic, or things on your top-10 list.

4) What are your thoughts on Holy Basil, considering my goals?

Thank you in advance for any inputs you can provide, doc. I also hope I'm not making too big of a splash and making too many demands. If you're back in the Baltimore area anytime soon I'd be happy to get you a brew or drink.

[tjwoody]

Thx to OP and everyone else contributing.

I picked up a couple things mentioned in this thread.

Maybe I missed it on vit C, but I saw 500mg with meals. I am currently eating smaller meals per day so was curious what a daily dosage one should shoot for. I am ~200 lbs btw.

[ka0tik]

Hey doc, the thread inspired me to make an order for single ingredients and ditch the multivitamins. I eat fairly healthy, mostly organic or free range. Lots of protein, fruits, and vegetables. The only unhealthy part is that prolly once or twice a week I get fast food. Wondering what you think of my schedule and if you would make any tweaks.

morning/before breakfast:
b-complex
vitamin c
Omega 3, 6, 9 fish oil
creatine
coffee/tea

lunch
n/a

pre workout:
creatine
beta alanine 5g
arginine akg 5g
caffeine (generally coffee or tea if energy is needed, sometimes a supp)

post workout:
creatine
protein
co q10 200mg
CLA/EFA/chromium picolinate (all-in-one)

dinner
n/a

before bed:
ZMA
Selenium (200mcg)
NAC (NOW brand has Molybedum 50mcg, Selenium 25mcg, and 600mg of NAC)
melatonin (if needed)

I also have Calcium and Iron as a standalone but dont really ever use it because I think that I get enough from my diet.
Formula X is on my next order which includes carnitine, leucine, and DAA. Any other recommendations? Dont really see the point of curcumin given that I am 22 and healthy. I am also interested in your thoughts on glutamine. I have used it in the past and thought it worked well post workout in the beginning however once I started taking it everyday, I felt like I was experiencing a tolerance to it. Not to mention, people arent really recommending glutamine as much as they used to.

[dunhill225]

Unless I have misses some new research hasn't DAA only shown any effects on hormone levels in those with low hormone levels? And zero effect on those with normal levels? It COULD have some value in pct I suppose but I wouldn't use it even for that till there is more science behind it.

[DaveGabe24]

Unless I have misses some new research hasn't DAA only shown any effects on hormone levels in those with low hormone levels? And zero effect on those with normal levels? It COULD have some value in pct I suppose but I wouldn't use it even for that till there is more science behind it.

Notsureifsrs

[ka0tik]

Unless I have misses some new research hasn't DAA only shown any effects on hormone levels in those with low hormone levels? And zero effect on those with normal levels? It COULD have some value in pct I suppose but I wouldn't use it even for that till there is more science behind it.

havent seen this, but very interested since I have never used a truly anabolic agent and am thinking about getting some DAA

[p5sky]

subbed for more info!!

[dinoiii]

Unless I have misses some new research hasn't DAA only shown any effects on hormone levels in those with low hormone levels? And zero effect on those with normal levels? It COULD have some value in pct I suppose but I wouldn't use it even for that till there is more science behind it.

A quote from the highly-cited Italian study...

"The experiment using human subjects was carried out on two groups of healthy male volunteers aged between 27 and 37 years at the IVF (in vitro fertilization) Unit, Hospital "S. Luca", Vallo della Lucania, Italy."

We merely know that the volunteers were healthy in this study which would imply NO hypogonadism; however, individual numbers were not published, so I would say the answer to your questions is an emphatic "no" from what we know...but as I said...without the individual numbers, we know that there was an 83% response rate in those receiving it to the p value set (which was MUCH more significant than ANY supplement I have EVER seen in literature form; 20 years in the industry...I hope that says a lot).

What we do know is the average serum increases (in ng/ml)...

Baseline: DAA group: 4.5 +/- 0.6 ///// Placebo group: 4.6 +/- 0.5
s/p 6 days: DAA group: 5.2 +/- 0.7 ///// Placebo group: 4.5 +/- 0.7
s/p 12 days: DAA group: 6.4 +/- 0.8 ///// Placebo group: 4.7 +/- 0.7
s/p 3 days of cessation: DAA group: 5.8 +/- 0.6 ///// Placebo group: 4.6 +/- 0.7

this shows an increase compared to placebo (for standardized participants hovering around mid-range testo levels).

Incidentally, the product is used as a fertility aid, so despite no hypogonadal participants in this study, I would presume it to have similar if not BETTER effect in hypogonadal populace provided no anatomic/physiologic disconnect.

Full study for those that want to read in depth and have yet to...

http://www.rbej.com/content/7/1/120

Hope this helps you discern why people are excited about the ingredient.


D_

[dinoiii]

Hey doc, the thread inspired me to make an order for single ingredients and ditch the multivitamins. I eat fairly healthy, mostly organic or free range. Lots of protein, fruits, and vegetables. The only unhealthy part is that prolly once or twice a week I get fast food. Wondering what you think of my schedule and if you would make any tweaks.

morning/before breakfast:
b-complex
vitamin c
Omega 3, 6, 9 fish oil
creatine
coffee/tea

Subject for a whole debate in and of itself...what kind of "tea" are we talking about?

pre workout:
creatine
beta alanine 5g
arginine akg 5g
caffeine (generally coffee or tea if energy is needed, sometimes a supp)

Am indifferent to the arginine; don't think you're going to get a lot from it per se....L-carnitine would be much more efficient at "pump" effect and/or whatever else you might be using it for coupled with beta-alanine. I like my clients to use upwards of 2 grams of niacin pre-workout too to get a good GH-boost, if that's what you're looking for (unsure).

Again, tea as noted above...

post workout:
creatine
protein
co q10 200mg
CLA/EFA/chromium picolinate (all-in-one)

I don't know that pre- and post- creatine is "necessary" per se and I think you could save some money if you wanted to by chosing either or. CoQ10...I dose this weight-dependent and ubiquinone vs. ubiquinol dependent.

CLA/EFA/Chromium is an interesting combo - rationale? Too many fatty acids post-workout doesn't agree with everyone, but if you feel this has done you well; go for it.

before bed:
ZMA
Selenium (200mcg)
NAC (NOW brand has Molybedum 50mcg, Selenium 25mcg, and 600mg of NAC)
melatonin (if needed)

Why the hell do they have Molybdenum in there?

NAC (600mg) + Selenium (200mcg) = More test
ZMA (if deficient in zinc) = More test
Molybdenum = ? Less test

ergo-log's interpretation of a recent study:
http://www.ergo-log.com/molybdenetest.html

I also have Calcium and Iron as a standalone but dont really ever use it because I think that I get enough from my diet.
Formula X is on my next order which includes carnitine, leucine, and DAA. Any other recommendations? Dont really see the point of curcumin given that I am 22 and healthy. I am also interested in your thoughts on glutamine. I have used it in the past and thought it worked well post workout in the beginning however once I started taking it everyday, I felt like I was experiencing a tolerance to it. Not to mention, people arent really recommending glutamine as much as they used to.

Are you a vegetarian of some sort? If not, you're likely not iron-deficient if you're a male.

Calcium, I am plus/minus on. What kind of dairy intake do you have (or calcium in protein supplements)?

glutamine is tough; there's a glutamine cycle that needs to be accounted for within the liver which could make for an interesting discussion on ergogenesis (NOT the way most people take it; you'd need many doses through a 24-hour period for significant success)...plus, a great deal of oral L-glutamine ingested is taken up by the gut wall (bloats many too). Some still swear by it and it's included in many BCAA products; but I think it's cumbersome when taken in a quantity needed to be successful.

D_

[dinoiii]

Thx to OP and everyone else contributing.

I picked up a couple things mentioned in this thread.

Maybe I missed it on vit C, but I saw 500mg with meals. I am currently eating smaller meals per day so was curious what a daily dosage one should shoot for. I am ~200 lbs btw.

Oxidation comes with ingestion of EVERY particle of food.

Too much Vitamin C in the acute setting can be just as pro-oxidative as using none at all (or worse).

That said, 500mg with every meal (pre- and post-workout may be notable exceptions) - even if that means you are eating 6 meals a day (outside of the workout)...that'd be 3 grams per day to accomodate the increased metabolic demand.


D_

[southpaw23]

My top ten:
Alcar
LCLT
Beta-alanine
Creatine
Fish Oil
ALA
Vit D
Magnesium
BCAA, may switch to leucine, need to go do some reading in the bcaa thread
Taurine, idk if it does anthing really but i dont take much else

I was under the impression (based on forum posts) that in order for Leucine to work it's magic, it needed the other two BCAA's?

[Torobestia]

I was under the impression (based on forum posts) that in order for Leucine to work it's magic, it needed the other two BCAA's?

It does, sort of, but I think the growing consensus is that you get enough in the diet to make up for it. Or rather, that you can use the leucine to spike levels to activate mTOR, and any coinciding consumption of val/ile will be compensated by dietary intake. Am I wrong here, anyone?

[JudoJosh]

I was under the impression (based on forum posts) that in order for Leucine to work it's magic, it needed the other two BCAA's?

Check the BCAA thread in this forum

My opinion is yes isoleucine and valine have to be present in free form for supplemental leucine to be effective but the research on it really isnt conclusive yet.

[dinoiii]

I was under the impression (based on forum posts) that in order for Leucine to work it's magic, it needed the other two BCAA's?

It does, sort of, but I think the growing consensus is that you get enough in the diet to make up for it. Or rather, that you can use the leucine to spike levels to activate mTOR, and any coinciding consumption of val/ile will be compensated by dietary intake. Am I wrong here, anyone?

Check the BCAA thread in this forum

My opinion is yes isoleucine and valine have to be present in free form for leucine to be effective but the research on it really isnt conclusive yet.

Agree - much discussion here:

BCAA discussion thread


D_

[JudoJosh]

Agree - much discussion here:

BCAA discussion thread


D_

Yup! I actually forgot about that thread. About to go back and re-read through it

[dinoiii]

First off, I want to thank the Dr. for providing all of this information and insight. This forum is why I decided to register after years of periodic lurking.

Thank you for the kind words. I hope this forum hasn't disappointed.

That being said, I like what I've read and plan to make some adjustments to my supplement stash to better reflect some of these choices. My priority is general well-being, since I appear to have genetics that the longevity people crave and now I am embracing it. However, I'm still a slight-built, slightly fat man who looks like a kid, so the 2nd goal is to promote fat loss. Tertiary goal is brain/memory from nootropics.

Sounds like you have some realistic goals for supplements.

Alright, so now I have some questions regarding a few things.

1) We've mentioned Fish Oils / Omega 3's. Can you elaborate on differences between your typical fish oil capsules, krill oil, and others? For example, I'm confused by krill oil and its supposed less is more when compared to fish oil. Its EPA/DHA is much, much less, but claimed to be more readily absorbed and/or effective. Currently, I take 1 gram of Now KO, but still use a regular fish oil. At the very least, it has a little astaxanthin but I found some suppliers that provide that in 10mg softgels.

There has been much noise made lately about the benefits of Krill oil, and many people have started taking Krill oil capsules as a result. It is said that Krill oil contains more beneficial components, and as a result there has been a bit of a Krill oil versus fish oil debate. So should you be taking Krill oil or fish oil?

Perhaps we should begin by discussing exactly what Krill oil is. Krill are tiny shrimplike creatures that live in the colder areas of our oceans. Whales eat them by the ton, and they also make up a part of the diet of humans, mainly the Japanese and Russians.

Lets say at the start that the important Omega 3 essential fatty acids are DHA and EPA. Both Krill and fish oil are a source of these important Omega-3 fats.

So if both oils contain both EPA and DHA how do you choose one or the other?

1. Compare The Cost Of The DHA That You Are Getting.

It is generally considered that DHA is more important to your health than EPA, though EPA is certainly important as well. Around 60% of your brain is fat, and DHA is the most prevalent, and adding DHA and EPA to your diet promotes a range of health benefits including benefits to your mental function as well as reducing the risk of death from heart disease, helping your cholesterol levels and helping you reduce weight, and much more.

When you’re buying Omega 3 oil supplements you are primarily buying DHA. So one of the most important parts of comparing the different oil capsules is to assess the cost of the DHA that you’re buying. This is simply a matter of making a mathematical calculation of the amount of DHA in each capsule as a proportion of the price.

If you make a comparison of Krill oil compared to fish oil capsules you’ll find that the DHA that you’re buying in Krill oil softgels is significantly more expensive than the DHA you are buying in fish oil supplements. In fact it is over 5 times more expensive to buy DHA in Krill oil form that it is as fish oil.

Krill oil is very low in DHA, the most important of the Omega 3 fats - for specific age groups.

2. The Level Of Toxic Contamination In Each.

One of the perceived differences between fish oil and Krill oil is that the latter is less contaminated than the former. This however is not necessarily the case.

Airborne contamination can affect all parts of the globe. Scientists have found man-made pollution even in the North Atlantic and the Antarctic, including in creatures which inhabit the Antarctic such as penguins. Airborne pollution is found everywhere.

Establishing the cleanliness of the supplements that you buy is essential. Nowadays, sad to say, all forms of Omega 3 oils are likely to demonstrate some degree of contamination. The days are gone when it is possible to source marine oils high in DHA and EPA that are completely contamination free. This includes Krill oil.

However it’s quite possible to buy completely clean fish oil supplements. This is not because they are totally clean to begin with but it is because they have undergone rigorous decontamination processes, and the results have been checked by laboratory analysis. Before buying any Omega 3 supplements you should always check the certificate of analysis of the oil, which should always be made available to the public on the website.

Many people are unaware that Krill oil undergoes no decontamination process. It is therefore untrue to say that Krill oil is free from contamination.

3. Scientific Evidence Showing The Effectiveness Of The Supplements.

There have been literally thousands of studies which have demonstrated the effectiveness of the DHA and EPA Omega 3 fats in improving your health. However although there are claims by the manufacturers that Krill oil is tremendously effective in improving your health there are very few, if any, independent scientific studies that show that Krill oil is any better to your health compared to fish oil. The benefits of the Omega 3 fats in one will be the same benefits as found in the same quantity of Omega3 fats in the other.
Most of the studies that do exist are in fact financed by people with a financial interest in selling Krill oil. One Canadian company owns the patent on Krill oil and finances the studies, of which there are very few.

4. The Presence Of Astaxanthin In Krill Oil.

It is said that Astaxanthin is a powerful antioxidant with significant health benefits, and that Astaxanthin is found in Krill. Whilst this is true it is also true that some high quality fish oil supplements contain Astaxanthin at a significantly higher proportion that is found in Krill oil.
The anti-oxidant potency of Krill oil is in fact lower than that of the best fish oil supplements.

5. The DHA And EPA Are Attached To Phospholipids.

This is one more reason why it is claimed that Krill oil is more potent than fish oil. Without going into all of the scientific mumbo-jumbo about what this means, the bottom line is that there is no scientific evidence that this does anything at all, and there is no more evidence that the phospholipid structure in Krill oil offers any health benefits.

Ultimately Krill oil is about marketing. The health benefits of Omega 3 supplementation are established by many many scientific studies, and the benefit of fish oil to your health is recognized by such eminent authorities as the American Heart Association.

However, whilst Krill oil supplements are cleverly marketed, there is no independent scientific evidence to suggest that they are any more beneficial to your health than high quality Omega 3 fish oil supplements, they are dramatically more expensive for the same amount of active ingredient, and because they are not subject to any decontamination process the contamination level of Krill oil supplements may be extremely high. Nobody knows.

So if you’re convinced of the health benefits of DHA and EPA supplementation, and if you’ve been wondering about fish oil vs Krill oil debate, then rest assured that buying fish oil supplements will be cheaper, safer, and better for your health.



D_

[dinoiii]

2) I saw mention of lecithin, and naturally, phosphatidylcholine. I am turned on by choline because of purported benefits to mind and fat loss. For those pursuits, which form(s) are best? Lecithin, choline citrate, choline bitartrate, phosphatidyl choline, or other?

I prefer CDP-Choline and/or alpha-GPC if trying to discern based on neurologic and/or performance/body comp standpoint.

3) Quercetin, bromelain, bioperine, naringin. I have a curcumin supp that bundles bioperine, but I am curious if any of the other compounds here help (or hinder) absorption of things like curcumin, Ursobolic, or things on your top-10 list.

Well, ursolic acid is not on my "top 10" list, BUT minerals all act upon one another and could certainly impact serum concentrations, so selenium and magnesium are possibly an issue. The other bigger macro-molecules (aminos or dipeptides - like creatine, beta-alanine, leucine, carnitine) are usually not an issue in the absorption dept. CoQ10 is probably better absorbed in its alcohol form (ubiquinol), but doubling up would take care of this if using ubiquinone; also...a compound called limoned is championed in the life extension camps and LEF does put out a supplement with this item if interested.

4) What are your thoughts on Holy Basil, considering my goals?

I think Holy Basil holds a lot of ergogenic possibility in the testosterone and body comp offering alone.

Thank you in advance for any inputs you can provide, doc. I also hope I'm not making too big of a splash and making too many demands. If you're back in the Baltimore area anytime soon I'd be happy to get you a brew or drink.

Oh gosh, I travel quite a bit...but anytime I am traveling I usually let the forums know where I am going as best as I am able -or- on Facebook if you follow my company on there. I'd be happy to meet up with anyone interested if I am in your area or if anyone comes to my predominate address (Columbus, OH) say for the Arnold...let me know...I could arrange to meet up.


D_