Top 10 Supplements

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    11 dianabol - yes, there IS an 11th supplement!
    10 resveratrol and quercetin - resv = bulk powder. too many reasons to use it. querc = - too many reasons to use it, helps stuff like resveratrol work, cheap.
    9 lclt/alcar combo - bulk powders. too many reasons to use these
    8 green foods powder - chlorella, spirulina, veggies, mixed into a shake, usually post workout or pre-bed.
    using NOW green phytofoods atm...
    7 coq10, ala, sam-e/tmg, cinnamon, ginger, garlic, olive oil - tie!
    6 multimineral - using a NOW product, actually 1/2 daily dose, with 1/2 tab crushed and added to intra drink on wo days too. generating less than 1/4 the selenium recommended by d_. need to get a selenium supp in the mail asap!
    5 omega 3s - keep them in the fridge!
    4 coconut oil - outside and inside, good for you, helps absorption of phs and fat soluble stuffs, full of mct's (lauric acid, anyone?), antimicrobial, use on skin too mixed with other essential oils, cedar being one of my favorites.
    3 vitamins d and c - d = take 10,000iu/day through the winter, none in the summer with 2hours shirtless sun between 10 and 2:00/week, c = buffered with calcium and magnesium, not pre-workout.
    2 turmeric/curcumin - bulk powder, dump a few grams turmeric in natty choco whey shakes, add olive/coconut oil - tastes great!
    1 astaxanthin - 1 gram 1% bulk powder daily - after a couple weeks of this with curcumin, i was able to bench again after many years of heavy shoulder pain. now, 80-90% less pain doing these movements.

    what i am taking away from this thread -
    focus on ingredients.
    get BACK on a cooenzyme b complex... dammit!
    get a BACK on a selenium SPECIFIC supplement... dammit!
    Reps for the EVCO! I wouldnt even thought to add that and I use it just about everyday from cooking to shaving! Definitely a necessity for me!!
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  2. right on man!
    i shave with it too!
    i mix a few drops of cedar and/or sage oil in some coconut oil (extra virgin, yes, best smell and flavor) and slather the jawline.
    the razor GLIDES man! leaves the skin smooth, clean, and naturally resistant to infection, fungus, etc.
    thanks for the reps...
    feels good to be of the same mind with a man like yourself...
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    right on man!
    i shave with it too!
    i mix a few drops of cedar and/or sage oil in some coconut oil (extra virgin, yes, best smell and flavor) and slather the jawline.
    the razor GLIDES man! leaves the skin smooth, clean, and naturally resistant to infection, fungus, etc.
    thanks for the reps...
    feels good to be of the same mind with a man like yourself...
    your from the lean bulk board right?
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  4. ...Shaving with EVCO? You gents are brilliant!
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by Resolve
    ...Shaving with EVCO? You gents are brilliant!
    Wow I need to look into this

  6. I seriously will never go back to shaving creams or gels. I might switch to some non virgin coconut oil though as EVCO starts to get expensive when you are using it for so many things daily
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  7. Hmm...I'm not even sure I have a "top 10" supplements lol. I personally believe that most of these things are gimmicks at best and the clinical studies done for the majority of these are too narrow or the test base is way too small to make accurate conclusions. With that said, here are my "staples" if you will...

    Non-hormonal aka supporting supps:

    4)Fish oils
    3)Coq-10
    2)Hawthorne Berry
    1)UDCA (low dose 250mg/day)

    Hormonal Supps:

    8)GHRP's [Ipa and (-2)]
    7)IGF-1
    6)PEG MGF-1
    5)Toco-8
    4)DAA
    3)Clomid
    2)Formestane/Exemestane
    1)Testosterone and it's derivatives

  8. so whats the suggested dosing on Coq10 to achieve the mentioned results and what duration should that be attempted? constant?

  9. Just ordered some Selenium, Curcumin, Magnesium, ALCAR, CoQ10, Vitamin C / D, and a B complex...feels nice to place an order that I know will directly benefit my health, and not just strictly performance/size blah blah.

    Also grabbed some DAA, for my next stack I'm throwing together. Already have BA (Intra****l), Omega3's (oximega), and creatine (Creatine RT).


    This thread is definitely a step in the right direction, and it really hit home when Dana made a point that our goals for whichever sport we compete should in no way compete with the priority of our own health...and in fact they should be focused on cohesively in a sense.

    Health = longevity
    Longevity = More time for success
  10. AnabolicMinds Site Rep
    MidwestBeast's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveGabe24 View Post
    Just ordered some Selenium, Curcumin, Magnesium, ALCAR, CoQ10, Vitamin C / D, and a B complex...feels nice to place an order that I know will directly benefit my health, and not just strictly performance/size blah blah.

    Also grabbed some DAA, for my next stack I'm throwing together. Already have BA (Intra****l), Omega3's (oximega), and creatine (Creatine RT).


    This thread is definitely a step in the right direction, and it really hit home when Dana made a point that our goals for whichever sport we compete should in no way compete with the priority of our own health...and in fact they should be focused on cohesively in a sense.

    Health = longevity
    Longevity = More time for success
    I'd like to make a similar order. I'm hoping the doc will weigh in on the doses and timing, still
    Psalm 34:10 - "The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing."
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by DaveGabe24 View Post
    Just ordered some Selenium, Curcumin, Magnesium, ALCAR, CoQ10, Vitamin C / D, and a B complex...feels nice to place an order that I know will directly benefit my health, and not just strictly performance/size blah blah.

    Also grabbed some DAA, for my next stack I'm throwing together. Already have BA (Intra****l), Omega3's (oximega), and creatine (Creatine RT).


    This thread is definitely a step in the right direction, and it really hit home when Dana made a point that our goals for whichever sport we compete should in no way compete with the priority of our own health...and in fact they should be focused on cohesively in a sense.

    Health = longevity
    Longevity = More time for success
    completely agree with you here!

    I placed an order that looked very similar to that recently too
    RecoverBro ELITE

  12. Interestingly enough, its the "unhealthy, steroid using, overweight meatheads" that have spot on health. Honestly, 3 years ago when I was naive and took OTC steroids for the first time was the best thing that happened to me. Because of this, in fear I made a strong effort to know everything about proper hormone manipulation as well as training routines and dieting. This lead to an acute awareness on my part about my body's health. I get bloods done regularly now and am able to keep tabs on all areas of my health which is far more than I can say about most individuals.

  13. I'm gonna make some potent caps on custom capsule! CQ10 is expensive, esp if I dose it at 400mg? But I get a year's worth for $130. No one has chimed in about dosage!
  14. AnabolicMinds Site Rep
    MidwestBeast's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestBeast View Post
    Sub'd for more info and looking forward to hearing more doses used on these products/ingredients (minimum/maximum and optimal, along with timing).
    Bump
    Psalm 34:10 - "The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing."
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  15. My Top 10 Favs

    1. Formula-X
    2. TitaniumXL/Division 1 combo
    3. Super Cissus
    4. Bulk P-slin
    5. Xtend
    6. Anabolic Ignite
    7. Anabeta
    8. Erase
    9. Caffeine
    10. HGHUP
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  16. Quote Originally Posted by AdelV View Post
    I'm gonna make some potent caps on custom capsule! CQ10 is expensive, esp if I dose it at 400mg? But I get a year's worth for $130. No one has chimed in about dosage!
    I'm actually surprised we didn't see it go up further in price after the disaster in japan. A lot of it is manufactured there.
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  17. hmmm so really NO ONE knows an appropriate dose??? Im sure D isnt the only one here with some knowledge on the subject... any studies with a specific dose showing changes in fiber content??

  18. Under the Age of 35: 100-200 mg of Ubiquinone (plain CoQ10) once daily

    Over the Age of 35: 100 mg of Ubiquinol CoQ10. Therefore, you don't have to worry about conversion rates since it is already in active form. Younger people can get away with plain ubiquinone.

  19. so i read back....

    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd
    In this paper, we report results obtained from a continuing clinical trial on the effect of coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) administration on human vastus lateralis (quadriceps) skeletal muscle. Muscle samples, obtained from aged individuals receiving placebo or CoQ10 supplementation (300mg per day for four weeks prior to hip replacement surgery) were analysed for changes in gene and protein expression and in muscle fibre type composition. Microarray analysis (Affymetrix U95A human oligonucleotide array) using a change in gene expression of 1.8-fold or greater as a cutoff point, demonstrated that a total of 115 genes were differentially expressed in six subject comparisons. In the CoQ10-treated subjects, 47 genes were up-regulated and 68 down-regulated in comparison with placebo-treated subjects. Restriction fragment differential display analysis showed that over 600 fragments were differentially expressed using a 2.0-fold or greater change in expression as a cutoff point. Proteome analysis revealed that, of the high abundance muscle proteins detected (2,086 +/- 115), the expression of 174 proteins was induced by CoQ10 while 77 proteins were repressed by CoQ10 supplementation. Muscle fibre types were also affected by CoQ10 treatment; CoQ10-treated individuals showed a lower proportion of type I (slow twitch) fibres and a higher proportion of type IIb (fast twitch) fibres, compared to age-matched placebo-treated subjects. The data suggests that CoQ10 treatment can act to influence the fibre type composition towards the fibre type profile generally found in younger individuals. Our results led us to the conclusion that coenzyme Q10 is a gene regulator and consequently has wide-ranging effects on over-all tissue metabolism. We develop a comprehensive hypothesis that CoQ10 plays a major role in the determination of membrane potential of many, if not all, sub-cellular membrane systems and that H2O2 arising from the activities of CoQ10 acts as a second messenger for the modulation of gene expression and cellular metabolism.
    I guess thats a starting point but this is only for 4 weeks.... is it safe to continue this dosage for longer periods of time? I dont even know whats rec on a bottle honestly....

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Ev52 View Post
    Under the Age of 35: 100-200 mg of Ubiquinone (plain CoQ10) once daily

    Over the Age of 35: 100 mg of Ubiquinol CoQ10. Therefore, you don't have to worry about conversion rates since it is already in active form. Younger people can get away with plain ubiquinone.
    thanks for replying...

    I wonder what this means for the study then and if dose was increased due solely to age and what form of CoQ10 was actually used to equate a safe and reasonable dose to use for younger aged individuals.

    My guess is ubiquinone is cheaper too and the reason why its suggested if one can adequately convert it???

  21. I've used 300mgs of Coq10 for at least a year straight. Personally I think a higher dose would be better.
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  22. Quote Originally Posted by Sourdough View Post
    thanks for replying...

    I wonder what this means for the study then and if dose was increased due solely to age and what form of CoQ10 was actually used to equate a safe and reasonable dose to use for younger aged individuals.

    My guess is ubiquinone is cheaper too and the reason why its suggested if one can adequately convert it???
    Since the body converts ubiquinone into ubiquinol, there is an extra step involved. The problem is that not all of it gets converted. CoQ10 in the blood is in the form of ubiquionol. As you get older the total level in the blood drops as well as the bodies ability to convert it. Therfore, the recommendation of Ubiquinol for those over 35. This also doesnt mean ubiquinone isnt effective just the the active form is better. Kaneka the manufacturer says 6 times and has some research to back that.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    I've used 300mgs of Coq10 for at least a year straight. Personally I think a higher dose would be better.
    I agree. I find it most noticable for energy at 400mg.

  24. Awesome fellas! thanks for the info. I'll be going on a supp buying spree in december with my bonus check and this will have to be on the list.... Think ill start at 300 and go from there.

    Any conflicts with running a high dose on cycle, increased blood pressure etc? As I'll start my winter bulk cycle at the same time...
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  25. Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    So complicated, lol

    Ill stick to my Orange Triad, Fish Oil, Garlic Oil, E3 Live (Klamath Lake Frozen Liquid Blue Green Algae), extra Vitamin C and D.

    Orange Triad Link
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/c...-270-tabs.html
    I suppose that is simple, BUT in no way am I a fan of Echinacea on a daily basis...I tried to tell them this was NOT appropriate way back with the introduction of this multi. Also, I have discussed my issues with CDG in other threads. Oral Hyaluronic Acid is silly with virtually no absorption. But I certainly have no complaints with most of your list.



    Quote Originally Posted by AdelV View Post
    8. Curcumin (anti-inflammatory/pro-testosterone, can be found in every guy's cupboard I hope...understand bioavailability is poor, so take more of it!!!!); How much ? Are we talking 1g p/d?


    As much as you can invest in daily (spices, supplements, et al... ---> it's bioavailability is unfortunately poor in most instances. I think Biotest has a good version with piperine at least in it).

    6. L-carnitine (all forms, but LOVE LCLT/PLC/ALCAR combo); I agree, I'll be honest the original form started leaning me out! I plan on taking 5g p/d.


    I currently take 3 grams of each of those mentioned per day (9 total grams; of course elemental carnitine will vary dependent upon the salt).


    5. Leucine (NOT all BCAAs; leucine alone is overlooked and the only sole ketogenic BCAA); Any info on timing?


    Very program-specific, but I talked about this to some degree in the BCAA Discussion thread. 25% the total amino acid pool is a base, if you are going to take any "extra" - around the workout (post-workout is MUCH MORE important than pre-workout despite what supplement advertisement would lend you to believe) and/or first thing in the morning. There's not a lot of reason to have BCAAs and/or leucine beyond 25% your total amino pool...if you get this from food stuffs...great!


    3. CoQ10 (multi-function strikes again - can change type I muscle fibers to type IIs; can protect the heart; act as an antioxidant, etc...); This actual form, or the other form? How much should we take?

    Thanks
    As many appear to say later in this thread...200-400mg of ubiquinol is a good start. Minimally double the value if using ubiquinone.

    D_


    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    Doc,

    Where is augmatine in this list? MAN promotes it as the "Holy Grail" of bodybuilding supplements. I also know you have researched it extensively. I have tried it and I can't say it did much for me but I only used one bottle. It may need to be used for a longer period to exert it's overall effects. Moreover, it doesn't get a lot of love on the bodybuilding forums.
    Answered agmatine questions in said thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by psimonkey View Post
    OK my 10 would be

    Vitamin C
    Resveratrol
    Fish oil
    B-Vits
    Lecithin
    Aniracetam
    Creatine
    Milk thistle
    Beta-alanine
    N-acetyl-cystiene
    Nice looking list; the only comments I could make is that 85-90% of milk thistle products are inaccurately labeled unfortunately...supplier and production issue.

    As for Lecithin, lecithin is derived from the Greek word for Egg Yolk - its first isolation point. Some may be better familiar with its second dubbing - phosphatidylcholine...which gives us reason to talk about it.

    Obviously through metabolic processing, it provides us with choline, conveniently one part of the acetylcholine molecule, a neurotransmitter for proper brain and nerve functioning in its most basic of understanding. Since we commercialized it and it became a rather en vogue substance when researchers made the connection between choline and brain functioning, its extraction process shifted toward the soybean - which offers a consistent source of EFAs [to me - far better than flax or hemp, which kind of upended it with their own evolution]. Lecithin's emulsification properties (it's a HUGE component of bile) are thought to keep cholesterol in check - which to me has always been debatable as I think many more fats do this, yet for different reasons.

    Now, especially if you're an endurance athlete ... it may have a very important role as it has been hypothesized that runners in the Boston Marathon possess low choline levels, which subsequently imparts a dleterious effect on long-term output potential for the nervous system (i.e. - subsequent neuronal firing to continue muscles moving, etc...). Shoot, lecithin is important for creatine synthesis and might bode well in forthcoming creatine beverages to some level if it could be worked out, hypothesized to essentially increase strength based on this fact.

    The only problem I have seen is that studies involving upwards of 20-35 grams have produced MIXED RESULTS (and I remain a study guy for my dollars). Does that mean I write it off, HELL NO!!! I am just not sure I can offer the best of recommendations - think about it...it helps aid in liver detoxification processes which may impart a better final product action than any other liver detox agent --- all the NAC's, TUDA, et al may not even ultimately match up and in a case where we tend to overdo it sometimes in a virtually flooded C17 alkylated PH/PS/AAS world these days, it may have worth for all of us yet. I think too - it has shown some effects to boost HDL levels (another issue with long-term steroid users, etc...) but I would have to revisit the literature to offer anything concrete here.

    So - its a mixed bag, my lack of conclusion is solely because of the mixed reviews and I am NOT sure I could offer a concrete suggestion...just that...maybe it has benefit, maybe it doesn't mean so much in affordable doses ... if you like it, use it.


    Quote Originally Posted by keyser View Post
    Dana,
    Should someone that is in a exclusively explosive sport avoid q10? Lets say a long drive golfer.. would it slow down his muscle fibers?
    You know this is a GREAT question! Although, I am afraid I wouldn't label a "drive golfer" an explosive athlete; but I suppose your question would better ask if it was an endurance athlete, should they avoid CoQ10? That has unfortunately not been studied. For explosive short bursts, like say a sprinter OR even those playing football are actually just the guys I'd have using it.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  26. Quote Originally Posted by j2048b View Post
    doc,
    wondering why so much b complex is suggested, as a former trainee under u i had to cut mine back to once or twice a day do to insomnia, and it hurting like hell to pee after a few days of taking b complex with every meal!

    probably dont remember this but it was way too much fro me to take a b complex with every meal, kind of over use if u ask me?
    B vitamins are co-factors for virtually every reaction in the body, inclusive of protein synthesis. When your amino pool is called upon, you would do your best to add in some B's and this processing is happening all the time. Unfortunately, it is a water-soluble offering which means, it will be with you for a short period.


    I could certainly see insomnia (again, more reactions - for which if this did crop up...I would cut back on the final dose of the day), but NOT pain on urination - that I would seek out another cause. If you suggest your pain on urination went away with stopping B Vitamins, I would say something in the brand you chose was off OR we're talking complete idiosyncrisy.



    also DAA gave me the WORST heartburn i have ever had in my life! had to drop it fast! why i ask?

    also HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE/???:
    I think we talked about the relative acidity in the DAA thread, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong.



    3. CoQ10 (multi-function strikes again - can change type I muscle fibers to type IIs; can protect the heart; act as an antioxidant, etc...);

    i was under the sumption that once your born with a muscle make up, that one COULD NOT CHANGE THEIR MUSCLE FIBER TYPES, but could learn to train them instead, i was not aware that ones genetics could change by a single supplement, at all!

    IF THIS IS IN FACT A TRUTH, THEN THE FDA WILL HAVE A FIELD DAY WITH THIS, AND ALSO WE HAVE FOUND THE "MAGIC PILL!!!"

    please do explain in laymans terms and non of that doctor type lingos, because i might throw in the flag on this one!
    I don't blame you for challenging this as it is contradictory to common thought. I am an avid believer that we should do anything BUT lie victim to our genetics; remember - there's an entire field known as "epigenetics" (subject of a recent radio show on rxmuscle I did) where things literally "above" genetics can occur...environmental things can certainly influence phenotype (i.e. - what you look like). Type IIs are very modifiable actually; they are also subject to the most hypertrophy (growth in size), but we even decided a few years ago that were subject to hyperplasia (growth of new ones) and previous thinking was off...the same thinking fell through for neuron regeneration as well.



    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    11 dianabol - yes, there IS an 11th supplement!
    You may be addicted when... I kid, I kid; but really - "Essential element?" We know it would obviously "work."


    10 resveratrol and quercetin - resv = bulk powder. too many reasons to use it. querc = - too many reasons to use it, helps stuff like resveratrol work, cheap.
    9 lclt/alcar combo - bulk powders. too many reasons to use these
    8 green foods powder - chlorella, spirulina, veggies, mixed into a shake, usually post workout or pre-bed.
    using NOW green phytofoods atm...
    7 coq10, ala, sam-e/tmg, cinnamon, ginger, garlic, olive oil - tie!
    6 multimineral - using a NOW product, actually 1/2 daily dose, with 1/2 tab crushed and added to intra drink on wo days too. generating less than 1/4 the selenium recommended by d_. need to get a selenium supp in the mail asap!
    5 omega 3s - keep them in the fridge!
    4 coconut oil - outside and inside, good for you, helps absorption of phs and fat soluble stuffs, full of mct's (lauric acid, anyone?), antimicrobial, use on skin too mixed with other essential oils, cedar being one of my favorites.
    3 vitamins d and c - d = take 10,000iu/day through the winter, none in the summer with 2hours shirtless sun between 10 and 2:00/week, c = buffered with calcium and magnesium, not pre-workout.
    2 turmeric/curcumin - bulk powder, dump a few grams turmeric in natty choco whey shakes, add olive/coconut oil - tastes great!
    1 astaxanthin - 1 gram 1% bulk powder daily - after a couple weeks of this with curcumin, i was able to bench again after many years of heavy shoulder pain. now, 80-90% less pain doing these movements.

    what i am taking away from this thread -
    focus on ingredients.
    get BACK on a cooenzyme b complex... dammit!
    get a BACK on a selenium SPECIFIC supplement... dammit!
    Great looking rest of your list though IMO.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Ev52 View Post
    Hey Dr.
    Any thoughts on a Tumeric Phytosome like Meriva?
    Yes...in the one study I can think of in humans; there was no curcumin found in human blood...I'd say it's a waste on that alone.

    BCM-95®, Biocurcumax, Arjuna on the other hand...showed 10 times the serum value of regular curcumin. Unfortunately, bioperine alone contributes to most....so if you can get a formula with that...you're probably gonna save a lot of money.



    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Reps for the EVCO! I wouldnt even thought to add that and I use it just about everyday from cooking to shaving! Definitely a necessity for me!!
    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    right on man!
    i shave with it too!
    i mix a few drops of cedar and/or sage oil in some coconut oil (extra virgin, yes, best smell and flavor) and slather the jawline.
    the razor GLIDES man! leaves the skin smooth, clean, and naturally resistant to infection, fungus, etc.
    thanks for the reps...
    feels good to be of the same mind with a man like yourself...
    Interesting guys. I like it for ingestion; but the consistency might be too rich for my skin IMO, but I will check it out now that you have posted this and see...


    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Hmm...I'm not even sure I have a "top 10" supplements lol. I personally believe that most of these things are gimmicks at best and the clinical studies done for the majority of these are too narrow or the test base is way too small to make accurate conclusions. With that said, here are my "staples" if you will...

    Non-hormonal aka supporting supps:

    4)Fish oils
    3)Coq-10
    2)Hawthorne Berry
    1)UDCA (low dose 250mg/day)

    Hormonal Supps:

    8)GHRP's [Ipa and (-2)]
    7)IGF-1
    6)PEG MGF-1
    5)Toco-8
    4)DAA
    3)Clomid
    2)Formestane/Exemestane
    1)Testosterone and it's derivatives
    Interesting and accurate points; many things are in fact gimmick - why invest in things that aren't even efficaciously dosed. This is kind of why I resort to my own dosing protocols and avoid manufacturer recommendations.

    As for your list of hormonal agents; they obviously possess a good deal of efficacy and I cannot fault your desire to use them.



    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Interestingly enough, its the "unhealthy, steroid using, overweight meatheads" that have spot on health. Honestly, 3 years ago when I was naive and took OTC steroids for the first time was the best thing that happened to me. Because of this, in fear I made a strong effort to know everything about proper hormone manipulation as well as training routines and dieting. This lead to an acute awareness on my part about my body's health. I get bloods done regularly now and am able to keep tabs on all areas of my health which is far more than I can say about most individuals.
    Labs don't always tell the complete story I am afraid. How come only a quarter of people with coronary artery disease die with lipid (cholesterol) elevations (i.e. - increased LDL); because it goes so much more deeper than the lab tale. Which labs are the "most important" - well, that may be a subject in and of itself, but I will guarantee you haven't checked even a third of them if true health is in your interest to accomodate side effects of not only anabolic aids, but also those that are side effects of simply being a man.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  28. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    I suppose that is simple, BUT in no way am I a fan of Echinacea on a daily basis...I tried to tell them this was NOT appropriate way back with the introduction of this multi. Also, I have discussed my issues with CDG in other threads. Oral Hyaluronic Acid is silly with virtually no absorption. But I certainly have no complaints with most of your list.





    [/B]As much as you can invest in daily (spices, supplements, et al... ---> it's bioavailability is unfortunately poor in most instances. I think Biotest has a good version with piperine at least in it).



    [/B]I currently take 3 grams of each of those mentioned per day (9 total grams; of course elemental carnitine will vary dependent upon the salt).




    [/B]Very program-specific, but I talked about this to some degree in the BCAA Discussion thread. 25% the total amino acid pool is a base, if you are going to take any "extra" - around the workout (post-workout is MUCH MORE important than pre-workout despite what supplement advertisement would lend you to believe) and/or first thing in the morning. There's not a lot of reason to have BCAAs and/or leucine beyond 25% your total amino pool...if you get this from food stuffs...great!




    As many appear to say later in this thread...200-400mg of ubiquinol is a good start. Minimally double the value if using ubiquinone.

    D_




    Answered agmatine questions in said thread.




    Nice looking list; the only comments I could make is that 85-90% of milk thistle products are inaccurately labeled unfortunately...supplier and production issue.

    As for Lecithin, lecithin is derived from the Greek word for Egg Yolk - its first isolation point. Some may be better familiar with its second dubbing - phosphatidylcholine...which gives us reason to talk about it.

    Obviously through metabolic processing, it provides us with choline, conveniently one part of the acetylcholine molecule, a neurotransmitter for proper brain and nerve functioning in its most basic of understanding. Since we commercialized it and it became a rather en vogue substance when researchers made the connection between choline and brain functioning, its extraction process shifted toward the soybean - which offers a consistent source of EFAs [to me - far better than flax or hemp, which kind of upended it with their own evolution]. Lecithin's emulsification properties (it's a HUGE component of bile) are thought to keep cholesterol in check - which to me has always been debatable as I think many more fats do this, yet for different reasons.

    Now, especially if you're an endurance athlete ... it may have a very important role as it has been hypothesized that runners in the Boston Marathon possess low choline levels, which subsequently imparts a dleterious effect on long-term output potential for the nervous system (i.e. - subsequent neuronal firing to continue muscles moving, etc...). Shoot, lecithin is important for creatine synthesis and might bode well in forthcoming creatine beverages to some level if it could be worked out, hypothesized to essentially increase strength based on this fact.

    The only problem I have seen is that studies involving upwards of 20-35 grams have produced MIXED RESULTS (and I remain a study guy for my dollars). Does that mean I write it off, HELL NO!!! I am just not sure I can offer the best of recommendations - think about it...it helps aid in liver detoxification processes which may impart a better final product action than any other liver detox agent --- all the NAC's, TUDA, et al may not even ultimately match up and in a case where we tend to overdo it sometimes in a virtually flooded C17 alkylated PH/PS/AAS world these days, it may have worth for all of us yet. I think too - it has shown some effects to boost HDL levels (another issue with long-term steroid users, etc...) but I would have to revisit the literature to offer anything concrete here.

    So - its a mixed bag, my lack of conclusion is solely because of the mixed reviews and I am NOT sure I could offer a concrete suggestion...just that...maybe it has benefit, maybe it doesn't mean so much in affordable doses ... if you like it, use it.




    You know this is a GREAT question! Although, I am afraid I wouldn't label a "drive golfer" an explosive athlete; but I suppose your question would better ask if it was an endurance athlete, should they avoid CoQ10? That has unfortunately not been studied. For explosive short bursts, like say a sprinter OR even those playing football are actually just the guys I'd have using it.


    D_
    So I had it the wrong way around... q10 is changing muscle from slow to fast? Explosive = q10, endurance = possibly not?

  29. Would you mind elaborating a bit on the LCLT? I've read quite a bit of literature, and heard some contradicting feedback depending on who I ask. Some say the androgen upregulation, etc. allows for the enhanced binding of endogenous hormones, which will ultimately increase the efficiency of any test-boosters being ran.

    Also, what's your thoughts on what to be run with DAA as far as E control goes. I was thinking a combination of I3C + Calcium D-Glucarate? If this question is not pertinent to this thread, I can ask elsewhere. Thanks!

  30. Quote Originally Posted by DaveGabe24 View Post
    Would you mind elaborating a bit on the LCLT? I've read quite a bit of literature, and heard some contradicting feedback depending on who I ask. Some say the androgen upregulation, etc. allows for the enhanced binding of endogenous hormones, which will ultimately increase the efficiency of any test-boosters being ran.

    Also, what's your thoughts on what to be run with DAA as far as E control goes. I was thinking a combination of I3C + Calcium D-Glucarate? If this question is not pertinent to this thread, I can ask elsewhere. Thanks!
    So I totally know im not D and I would love to hear all pertinent info he has to offer on LCLT as well since he has access to tons of stuff I could never dream of.... but...

    I was just recently in discussion about this in another thread and there is an obvious reason why there are so many opinions for either uregulation of AR sites or not.... I did some pulling up of studies to prove my point that AR sites were upregulated(something I had been previously convinced of through product writeups and articles) and found it wasnt fully the case...

    ...Well in a body building world/strength training world and just about any sport where one over exerts themselves I guess it would upregulate AR's over someone who wasnt active... but thats just it... you have to be active and specifically from a studies standpoint I think its only been proven through resistance exersice training, in other words weight lifting...

    What it seems that happens is LCLT decreases the amount of damage that occurs to muscles and the AR sites within. This DOES in turn increase the effectiveness of testosterone and I think that post workout feeding is what helps to increase this as well at least from a production standpoint... So of course keep up your post workout nutrition.

    Here, I looked em up again on my recent history and posted em for you to read yourself....

    Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effects of feeding and L-carnitine.

    Kraemer WJ, Spiering BA, Volek JS, Ratamess NA, Sharman MJ, Rubin MR, French DN, Silvestre R, Hatfield DL, Van Heest JL, Vingren JL, Judelson DA, Deschenes MR, Maresh CM.
    Source

    Human Performance Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT 06269-1110, USA. [email protected]

    Erratum in


    • Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006 Oct;38(10):1861.


    Abstract

    PURPOSE:

    The purpose of this investigation was to determine the effects of 3 wk of L-carnitine L-tartrate (LCLT) supplementation and post-resistance-exercise (RE) feeding on hormonal and androgen receptor (AR) responses.
    METHODS:

    Ten resistance-trained men (mean+/-SD: age, 22+/-1 yr; mass, 86.3+/-15.3 kg; height, 181+/-11 cm) supplemented with LCLT (equivalent to 2 g of L-carnitine per day) or placebo (PL) for 21 d, provided muscle biopsies for AR determinations, then performed two RE protocols: one followed by water intake, and one followed by feeding (8 kcal.kg body mass, consisting of 56% carbohydrate, 16% protein, and 28% fat). RE protocols were randomized and included serial blood draws and a 1-h post-RE biopsy. After a 7-d washout period, subjects crossed over, and all experimental procedures were repeated.
    RESULTS:

    LCLT supplementation upregulated (P<0.05) preexercise AR content compared with PL (12.9+/-5.9 vs 11.2+/-4.0 au, respectively). RE increased (P<0.05) AR content compared with pre-RE values in the PL trial only. Post-RE feeding significantly increased AR content compared with baseline and water trials for both LCLT and PL. Serum total testosterone concentrations were suppressed (P<0.05) during feeding trials with respect to corresponding water and pre-RE values. Luteinizing hormone demonstrated subtle, yet significant changes in response to feeding and LCLT.
    CONCLUSION:

    In summary, these data demonstrated that: 1) feeding after RE increased AR content, which may result in increased testosterone uptake, and thus enhanced luteinizing hormone secretion via feedback mechanisms; and 2) LCLT supplementation upregulated AR content, which may promote recovery from RE.

    The effects of L-carnitine L-tartrate supplementation on hormonal responses to resistance exercise and recovery.

    Kraemer WJ, Volek JS, French DN, Rubin MR, Sharman MJ, Gómez AL, Ratamess NA, Newton RU, Jemiolo B, Craig BW, Häkkinen K.
    Source

    Human Performance Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT 06269, USA. [email protected]

    Abstract

    The purpose of this investigation was to examine the influence of L-carnitine L-tartrate (LCLT) supplementation using a balanced, cross-over, placebo-controlled research design on the anabolic hormone response (i.e., testosterone [T], insulin-like growth factor-I, insulin-like growth factor-binding protein-3 [IGFBP-3], and immunofunctional and immunoreactive growth hormone [GHif and GHir]) to acute resistance exercise. Ten healthy, recreationally weight-trained men (mean +/- SD age 23.7 +/- 2.3 years, weight 78.7 +/- 8.5 kg, and height 179.2 +/- 4.6 cm) volunteered and were matched, and after 3 weeks of supplementation (2 g LCLT per day), fasting morning blood samples were obtained on six consecutive days (D1-D6). Subjects performed a squat protocol (5 sets of 15-20 repetitions) on D2. During the squat protocol, blood samples were obtained before exercise and 0, 15, 30, 120, and 180 minutes postexercise. After a 1-week washout period, subjects consumed the other supplement for a 3-week period, and the same experimental protocol was repeated using the exact same procedures. Expected exercise-induced increases in all of the hormones were observed for GHir, GHif, IGFBP-3, and T. Over the recovery period, LCLT reduced the amount of exercise-induced muscle tissue damage, which was assessed via magnetic resonance imaging scans of the thigh. LCLT supplementation significantly (p < 0.05) increased IGFBP-3 concentrations prior to and at 30, 120, and 180 minutes after acute exercise. No other direct effects of LCLT supplementation were observed on the absolute concentrations of the hormones examined, but with more undamaged tissue, a greater number of intact receptors would be available for hormonal interactions. These data support the use of LCLT as a recovery supplement for hypoxic exercise and lend further insights into the hormonal mechanisms that may help to mediate quicker recovery.

    So you can see that no.... LCLT does not have the intrinsic ability to just create new AR sites in resting individuals and in turn increase the efficacy of testosterone boosters or exogenous hormones.... BUT in the case that one is regularly performing Resistance Exercise training (which, heh, I sure hope is the case with everyone here) and the fact that RE training will undoubtedly damage muscle tissues and AR sites, then YES! Supplementation with LCLT will protect against that damage, preserve many of the AR sites and in turn increase the efficacy of hormones that can interact with those sites....

    So the answer is a resounding NO but YES! lol....

    Again I would love for D to either confirm, deny or expound on this principal still as I'd love to learn more.



    As for DAA, those exact questions were addressed here...

    DAA - Q&A with Dr. Dana Houser
  

  
 

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