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  1. Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post
    Very interesting stuff. I also was gonna switch to b-complex to save money, and to be effective. Finding one with a good dose of choline would be nice.

    I never even thought about that 3rd type of synergy. Basically, since ala(na-rala preferred) can act as a GDA, and l-carnitine metabolizes fats, does that mean(what the article is saying) this could function in increased fat loss(not weight)?

    It is late, so I am not very sharp right now. Will read again tomorrow and try to read up more. Thank you sir.
    Here's a very interesting article that goes over a lot of what was discussed here throughout the many pages and it talks about the anti-catabolic activity of anti-oxidants in general (though ALA has good GDA and repartitioning effects as well).

    Vitamin C is by far the most known anti-cortisol vitamin contributing to anti-catabolic effects on muscle metabolism. But there are other anti-oxidants, such as R-Alpha Lipoic Acid or R-ALA. Although not considered an anti-catabolic, it contributes to anti-catabolism and muscle cell preservation through both its potent anti-oxidant and repartitioning activities. The very fact that it alone minimizes the oxidation-related damage done to cells upon transferring amino acids through the cell membrane and increasing myocyte or muscle cell storage capacity is sufficient to extrapolate its contribution to the anabolic process. Its anti-oxidant properties contribute directly to anti-catabolism, while its partitioning mechanism is directly anabolic. Growth can be attained and consistently maintained through natural means now more so than ever before. Many times natural alternatives to high-risk anabolics are overlooked and type-casted as being comparatively ineffective, since they are seen as less effective. It is this disconnect that holds back or blocks the consideration that new improvements are also being discovered among natural sources identified for supporting lean mass development through anti-catabolic means. Supplement users can create a significant level of nutritional leverage stacking Vitamin C with Vitamins E and K, and spacing out multi-tab or multi-cap B-Complex formulas throughout the day - taking them only with meals, as needed. Vitamin C may be the most versatile and direct of mainstream vitamin sources that contribute to muscle preservation. Even for joint preservation over time, Vitamins C and D can help to mitigate the damaging effects of glucocorticoids on ligament and cartilage tissue. But in that case, they are best stacked with CISSUS for joint repair and cortisol reduction, and Vitamin C should be stacked with HMB, KIC, and/or BCAAs for maximum anti-catabolic effect. Recognizing that mainstream vitamins and minerals (i.e., zinc chelate for maximum absorption and testosterone recovery from intense training) add value to muscle preservation and directed anabolism is what's required to move on towards stacking with specialty anti-catabolics, rather than consuming them in isolation.

    The anabolic effects of allowing growth to occur through a safe anti-catabolic pathway occur in increments so small that they appear only linear in scope. In fact, the difference between using mainstream vitamins to support anabolism strategically and not doing so, is the scaled net effect of their inclusion in the overall stack long before diminishing returns set in. In other words, results are ensured.

    Recommended Ingredients:

    1. Vitamin C - required for connective tissue production and maintenance - (3-10 grams per day)
    2. BCAA - anti-catabolism, amino acid retention effects bypass liver, assists recovery
    3. HMB - anti-catabolism, cell wall strengthener, amino acid retention, strength, recovery, growth, repartitions lipids into intramuscular fat
    4. R-Alpha Lipoic Acid - potent antioxidant, repartitioning agent, fat loss
    5. Vitamins A,C,D,E - anti-oxidants, collagen formation (C), skin repair (A,C,E), bone health (C, D)


  2. Noted for future comment. Many misconceptions in today's posts
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    Noted for future comment. Many misconceptions in today's posts
    I've always wondered taking rala near the workout. The anti oxidant properties would hinder some of the oxidative stress that is caused via exercise and not facilitate the desired anabolic response right? Ive always taken alcar, lclt, and rala pre workout.. Should i limit it to just the carnitines?
    RecoverBro ELITE

  4. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    Noted for future comment. Many misconceptions in today's posts
    I tried to start this conversation elsewhere too, and not a lot to be said. Very vague answers. Your thoughts on their synergy, or lack there of would be much appreciated.
    Training Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/271254-what-aw-hell.html
    "Jackie Treehorn treats objects like woman man."

  5. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Noted for future comment. Many misconceptions in today's posts
    If I am wrong, please correct me so I can adjust the list for future supplements. I am just reading page after page after page of conflicting facts and opinions. For example, I read about the cortisol blunting effects of 1 gram of vitamin C post workout, so I take an Emergen C, but now I guess by doing that I may be damaging myself even further?
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green
    If I am wrong, please correct me so I can adjust the list for future supplements. I am just reading page after page after page of conflicting facts and opinions. For example, I read about the cortisol blunting effects of 1 gram of vitamin C post workout, so I take an Emergen C, but now I guess by doing that I may be damaging myself even further?
    I think it is correlated with the adaption to exercise. meaning the bodys natural response and sequence is being manipulated so adaption is thus adjusted. I have always wondered about all this as well. Sometimes taking all the extra supports might be blunting progress.
    But I can only guess, as I am not a researcher.
    RecoverBro ELITE

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    Here's a very interesting article that goes over a lot of what was discussed here throughout the many pages and it talks about the anti-catabolic activity of anti-oxidants in general (though ALA has good GDA and repartitioning effects as well).
    Let's start with the post you quoted:

    Vitamin C will not lower cortisol in healthy individuals who are not participating in strenuous endurance activities or facing some sort of strong external stressor (i.e. running a marathon). Vitamin C is a great antioxidant, but not for cortisol control. The conclusion that R-ALA (nevermind that they didn't use Na-RLA) is anabolic is also a poor extrapolation. The improved insulin sensitivity and activity in the mitochondria is once again great, but not for the reasons the author mentions. The terms "recovery", "anti-catabolic," and "anabolism" are thrown around very haphazardly. Here are my edited ingredients:

    Recommended Ingredients:

    1. Vitamin C - required for connective tissue production and maintenance - 500mg doses (plasma saturation) taken with meals. Not to be taken within 4 hours of training UNLESS using nitrates, in which 500mg should be taken preworkout to inhibit gastric nitrosation.
    2. Leucine - Forget BCAAs and HMB. Leucine is a far more efficient way to acquire the desired response on MPS. 0.045g/kg BW taken at once, 2 or more hours postprandially.
    4. Na-R-Alpha Lipoic Acid - potent antioxidant, repartitioning agent
    5. Refer to my Post in "How to Construct a Basic Stack" and read up on the ACES protocol:
    How to Construct a Basic Supplement Stack. FYI, we are posting in the section of the man who made ACES what it is.

    The 1 gram of vitamin C postworkout is actually hindering your progress for 2 reasons:

    1. It is above the plasma saturation dose and thus a waste.
    2. There is a decent body of evidence suggesting that periworkout Vitamin C consumption hinders hypertrophy and long-term performance.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by rob112 View Post
    I tried to start this conversation elsewhere too, and not a lot to be said. Very vague answers. Your thoughts on their synergy, or lack there of would be much appreciated.
    ALCAR and R-ALA complement each other as antioxidants, but the primary reason the two are recommended together is due to consistent synergistic effects that have been observed by Dr. Ames, namely these 3 studies:

    Hagen TM, Liu J, Lykkesfeldt J, Wehr CM, Ingersoll RT, Vinarsky V, Bartholomew JC, Ames BN. Feeding acetyl-L-carnitine and lipoic acid to old rats significantly improves metabolic function while decreasing oxidative stress. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2002;99:1870-5.

    Liu J, Head E, Gharib AM, Yuan W, Ingersoll RT, Hagen TM, Cotman CW, Ames BN. Memory loss in old rats is associated with brain mitochondrial decay and RNA/DNA oxidation: Partial reversal by feeding acetyl-L-carnitine and/or R-α-lipoic acid. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2002;99:2356-61.

    Liu J, Killilea D, Ames BN. Age-associated mitochondrial oxidative decay: Improvement of carnitine acetyltransferase substrate binding affinity and activity in brain by feeding old rats acetyl-L-carnitine and/or R-α-lipoic acid. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2002;99:1876-81.




    What has often gotten misconstrued is that ALA can prevent the pro-oxidative effects of ALCAR. And in fact, it can reduce ALCAR-induced ROS and has been proven to do so. So why is this not important? ALCAR was shown to generate ROS at high doses. You should be using 2g/day anyway so this should be a non-issue, especially if you are cycling off alcar every few months.

    There are other studies that have examined the two in conjunction, but as is often the case, the research has not quite reached humans as of yet:

    R-alpha-lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine complementarily promote mitochondrial biogenesis in murine 3T3-L1 adipocytes.

    Combined R-alpha-lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine exerts efficient preventative effects in a cellular model of Parkinson's disease

    From the latter study, check out the abstract:

    Mitochondrial dysfunction and oxidative damage are highly involved in the pathogenesis of Parkinson's disease (PD). Some mitochondrial antioxidants/nutrients that can improve mitochondrial function and/or attenuate oxidative damage have been implicated in PD therapy. However, few studies have evaluated the preventative effects of a combination of mitochondrial antioxidants/nutrients against PD, and even fewer have sought to optimize the doses of the combined agents. The present study examined the preventative effects of two mitochondrial antioxidant/nutrients, R-alpha-lipoic acid (LA) and acetyl-L-carnitine (ALC), in a chronic rotenone-induced cellular model of PD. We demonstrated that 4-week pretreatment with LA and/or ALC effectively protected SK-N-MC human neuroblastoma cells against rotenone-induced mitochondrial dysfunction, oxidative damage and accumulation of alpha-synuclein and ubiquitin. Most notably, we found that when combined, LA and ALC worked at 100-1000-fold lower concentrations than they did individually. We also found that pretreatment with combined LA and ALC increased mitochondrial biogenesis and decreased production of reactive oxygen species through the up-regulation of the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma coactivator 1alpha as a possible underlying mechanism. This study provides important evidence that combining mitochondrial antioxidant/nutrients at optimal doses might be an effective and safe prevention strategy for PD.


    As you can see, a synergistic effect has been consistently reported between the two antioxidants, and thus I would recommend taking them together (though not at EXACTLY the same time because ALCAR will polymerize with Na-R-ALA; take the Na-R-ALA 30 minutes prior to ingesting ALCAR). Add agmatine to that stack as well, take it first thing in the morning, and reap the benefits.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Let's start with the post you quoted:

    Vitamin C will not lower cortisol in healthy individuals who are not participating in strenuous endurance activities or facing some sort of strong external stressor (i.e. running a marathon). Vitamin C is a great antioxidant, but not for cortisol control. The conclusion that R-ALA (nevermind that they didn't use Na-RLA) is anabolic is also a poor extrapolation. The improved insulin sensitivity and activity in the mitochondria is once again great, but not for the reasons the author mentions. The terms "recovery", "anti-catabolic," and "anabolism" are thrown around very haphazardly. Here are my edited ingredients:

    Recommended Ingredients:

    1. Vitamin C - required for connective tissue production and maintenance - 500mg doses (plasma saturation) taken with meals. Not to be taken within 4 hours of training UNLESS using nitrates, in which 500mg should be taken preworkout to inhibit gastric nitrosation.
    2. Leucine - Forget BCAAs and HMB. Leucine is a far more efficient way to acquire the desired response on MPS. 0.045g/kg BW taken at once, 2 or more hours postprandially.
    4. Na-R-Alpha Lipoic Acid - potent antioxidant, repartitioning agent
    5. Refer to my Post in "How to Construct a Basic Stack" and read up on the ACES protocol:
    How to Construct a Basic Supplement Stack. FYI, we are posting in the section of the man who made ACES what it is.

    The 1 gram of vitamin C postworkout is actually hindering your progress for 2 reasons:

    1. It is above the plasma saturation dose and thus a waste.
    2. There is a decent body of evidence suggesting that periworkout Vitamin C consumption hinders hypertrophy and long-term performance.
    LOL. I'm about to give up on supplements! Everything I read is a conflict


    Thanks for the info though. I don't actually use much anymore, but am looking to put together an all around vitamin/mineral stack for health, anti-aging, and wellness so this helps out a lot.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    LOL. I'm about to give up on supplements! Everything I read is a conflict


    Thanks for the info though. I don't actually use much anymore, but am looking to put together an all around vitamin/mineral stack for health, anti-aging, and wellness so this helps out a lot.
    I think ACES along with ALCAR, Agmatine, Ubiquinol, and Na-R-ALA are right up your alley then.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69

    ALCAR and R-ALA complement each other as antioxidants, but the primary reason the two are recommended together is due to consistent synergistic effects that have been observed by Dr. Ames, namely these 3 studies:

    Hagen TM, Liu J, Lykkesfeldt J, Wehr CM, Ingersoll RT, Vinarsky V, Bartholomew JC, Ames BN. Feeding acetyl-L-carnitine and lipoic acid to old rats significantly improves metabolic function while decreasing oxidative stress. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2002;99:1870-5.

    Liu J, Head E, Gharib AM, Yuan W, Ingersoll RT, Hagen TM, Cotman CW, Ames BN. Memory loss in old rats is associated with brain mitochondrial decay and RNA/DNA oxidation: Partial reversal by feeding acetyl-L-carnitine and/or R-?-lipoic acid. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2002;99:2356-61.

    Liu J, Killilea D, Ames BN. Age-associated mitochondrial oxidative decay: Improvement of carnitine acetyltransferase substrate binding affinity and activity in brain by feeding old rats acetyl-L-carnitine and/or R-?-lipoic acid. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2002;99:1876-81.


    What has often gotten misconstrued is that ALA can prevent the pro-oxidative effects of ALCAR. And in fact, it can reduce ALCAR-induced ROS and has been proven to do so. So why is this not important? ALCAR was shown to generate ROS at high doses. You should be using 2g/day anyway so this should be a non-issue, especially if you are cycling off alcar every few months.

    There are other studies that have examined the two in conjunction, but as is often the case, the research has not quite reached humans as of yet:

    R-alpha-lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine complementarily promote mitochondrial biogenesis in murine 3T3-L1 adipocytes.

    Combined R-alpha-lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine exerts efficient preventative effects in a cellular model of Parkinson's disease

    From the latter study, check out the abstract:

    Mitochondrial dysfunction and oxidative damage are highly involved in the pathogenesis of Parkinson's disease (PD). Some mitochondrial antioxidants/nutrients that can improve mitochondrial function and/or attenuate oxidative damage have been implicated in PD therapy. However, few studies have evaluated the preventative effects of a combination of mitochondrial antioxidants/nutrients against PD, and even fewer have sought to optimize the doses of the combined agents. The present study examined the preventative effects of two mitochondrial antioxidant/nutrients, R-alpha-lipoic acid (LA) and acetyl-L-carnitine (ALC), in a chronic rotenone-induced cellular model of PD. We demonstrated that 4-week pretreatment with LA and/or ALC effectively protected SK-N-MC human neuroblastoma cells against rotenone-induced mitochondrial dysfunction, oxidative damage and accumulation of alpha-synuclein and ubiquitin. Most notably, we found that when combined, LA and ALC worked at 100-1000-fold lower concentrations than they did individually. We also found that pretreatment with combined LA and ALC increased mitochondrial biogenesis and decreased production of reactive oxygen species through the up-regulation of the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma coactivator 1alpha as a possible underlying mechanism. This study provides important evidence that combining mitochondrial antioxidant/nutrients at optimal doses might be an effective and safe prevention strategy for PD.


    As you can see, a synergistic effect has been consistently reported between the two antioxidants, and thus I would recommend taking them together (though not at EXACTLY the same time because ALCAR will polymerize with Na-R-ALA; take the Na-R-ALA 30 minutes prior to ingesting ALCAR). Add agmatine to that stack as well, take it first thing in the morning, and reap the benefits.
    Wow, awesome info. My question is answered finally. Already have bulk agmatine and alcar, so I just gotta get the na-r-ala. I really appreciate it man.
    Training Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/271254-what-aw-hell.html
    "Jackie Treehorn treats objects like woman man."

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Ev52 View Post
    Swanson just released a new "activated b complex." $17.99 for 60caps.

    1 capsule contains:
    Thiamin (vitamin B-1) (as benfotiamine) 54.4 mg 3,627%
    Riboflavin (as riboflavin 5'-phosphate) 50 mg 2,941%
    Niacin (as inositol hexanicotinate) 100 mg 500%
    Vitamin B-6(as pyridoxal 5-phosphate) 50 mg 2,500%
    Folate (as Quatrefolic® [6S]-5-Methyltetrahydrofolic acid equivalent to 1.6 mcg of [6S]-5-Methyltetrahydrofolic acid, glucosamine salt) 800 mcg 200%
    Vitamin B-12(as methylcobalamin) 500 mcg 8,333%
    Biotin 50 mcg 17%
    Choline(as choline dihydrogen citrate) 50 mg *
    PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid) 50 mg *
    Pantethine (coenzyme A precursor)(from Pantesin® 80% pantethine) 50 mg *
    Inositol(from inositol hexanicotinate) 25 mg *

    Hey Force of Green this seems to best Coenzyme B formula out there.

  13. Jarrow's B-Right complex is pretty solid also and is very reasonable

    Quote Originally Posted by koi1214 View Post
    Hey Force of Green this seems to best Coenzyme B formula out there.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by msucurt View Post
    Jarrow's B-Right complex is pretty solid also and is very reasonable
    Thanks Koi and MSUcurt. I like the profile of both. I put together a very solid stack of kinda everything that this thread has come to somewhat agree on as far as anti-oxidants. I think NP is probably the best site for ergogenic and bodybuilding products, though I added up all the following supplements from another site and most are the brand Vitacost, which I have had great luck with their products in the past. For under 250 dollars I have a lot of the product that will last over a year of staples.

    Vitamin D3
    Chelated zinc (Albion tm)
    Chelated selenium (Albion tm)
    Tri-Iodine
    Alcar
    NA-R-ALA
    Vitamin C w/ bioflavinoids
    Coenzyme B complex
    Curcumin w/ bioperine
    Chelated Calcium (Albion) and chelated magnesium (Albion) w/ D3
    Standardized pine bark extract
    Astaxanthin (Biostin tm)
    Standardized hawthorne extract
    Grape seed extact (Activin tm)
    Green tea extract for 98% polyphenols, 50% egcg
    Carotene complex with pro vitamin A

    If I updated the quantities to the specified amounts that would give me enough to dose certain things 3-4 times a day (vitamin C, GTE, a couple more) I would spend about an extract 140. 400 dollars for a full year supply of these (about a the cost of a drink from a vending machine) is pretty damned good to me. One order would take care of that and then I could worry about the ergogenic stuff (of course there are other benefits to them) later on. Like for me it would be:

    Creatine (Cre-02)
    DAA (Testforce 2)
    Beta Alanine (Peak Beta)
    Pregnenolone and DHEA (Andro Drive)
    *I honestly feel too damned good on Andro Drive and when I let myself run out, the sudden discontinuation of the pregnenolone set me right
    back to where I was before and I was in a time of extremely high stress.

    Oh and as far as ubiquinOL, I would consider it worth it to me to spend 45 dollars a month for 60 caps of 200mg of Kaneka Ubiquinol and just take 2 a day.

    edit: I forgot to mention that I have a few Toco 8s.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    We also found that pretreatment with combined LA and ALC increased mitochondrial biogenesis and decreased production of reactive oxygen species through the up-regulation of the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma coactivator 1alpha as a possible underlying mechanism.
    Atrogin-1 affects muscle protein synthesis and degradation when energy metabolism is impaired by the antidiabetes drug berberine.

    Abstract
    OBJECTIVE:
    Defects in insulin/IGF-1 signaling stimulate muscle protein loss by suppressing protein synthesis and increasing protein degradation. Since an herbal compound, berberine, lowers blood levels of glucose and lipids, we proposed that it would improve insulin/IGF-1 signaling, blocking muscle protein losses.
    RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS:
    We evaluated whether berberine ameliorates muscle atrophy in db/db mice, a model of type 2 diabetes, by measuring protein synthesis and degradation in muscles of normal and db/db mice treated with or without berberine. We also examined mechanisms for berberine-induced changes in muscle protein metabolism.
    RESULTS:
    Berberine administration decreased protein synthesis and increased degradation in muscles of normal and db/db mice. The protein catabolic mechanism depended on berberine-stimulated expression of the E3 ubiquitin ligase, atrogin-1. Atrogin-1 not only increased proteolysis but also reduced protein synthesis by mechanisms that were independent of decreased phosphorylation of Akt or forkhead transcription factors. Impaired protein synthesis was dependent on a reduction in eIF3-f, an essential regulator of protein synthesis. Berberine impaired energy metabolism, activating AMP-activated protein kinase and providing an alternative mechanism for the stimulation of atrogin-1 expression. When we increased mitochondrial biogenesis by expressing peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma coactivator-1alpha, berberine-induced changes in muscle protein metabolism were prevented.
    CONCLUSIONS:
    Berberine impairs muscle metabolism by two novel mechanisms. It impairs mitochonidrial function stimulating the expression of atrogin-1 without affecting phosphorylation of forkhead transcription factors. The increase in atrogin-1 not only stimulated protein degradation but also suppressed protein synthesis, causing muscle atrophy.


    I found this to be interesting with GDAs being so popular.

  16. I am actually aware of this study and always keep it in the back of my mind when evaluating usage of berberine. While I haven't looked far enough into it to see if we can extrapolate data from healthy rats (note that normal rats also suffered) to healthy humans, I would still co-administer Na-R-ALA with berberine irrespective of berberine's potential side effects. It is also why, despite berberine's numerous other benefits on overall health, I would never recommend it unless presented in the context of a carb-laden cheat meal in which inhibiting carbohydrate absorption is the goal.

  17. I agree, and I only plan on using Berberine on high carb meals(trying out SLINtropin as I was hooked up with a couple bottles). I decided to do some research(very interesting stuff with many benefits) and remembered your post when coming across this. Irony.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    I am actually aware of this study and always keep it in the back of my mind when evaluating usage of berberine. While I haven't looked far enough into it to see if we can extrapolate data from healthy rats (note that normal rats also suffered) to healthy humans, I would still co-administer Na-R-ALA with berberine irrespective of berberine's potential side effects. It is also why, despite berberine's numerous other benefits on overall health, I would never recommend it unless presented in the context of a carb-laden cheat meal in which inhibiting carbohydrate absorption is the goal.
    Interesting as I heard many suggesting taking it before bed and Ina. Fasted state to take advantage of some PPar fat burning.
    RecoverBro ELITE

  19. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag

    Interesting as I heard many suggesting taking it before bed and Ina. Fasted state to take advantage of some PPar fat burning.
    I've heard people say the same of other GDAs and I don't get it.
    Training Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/271254-what-aw-hell.html
    "Jackie Treehorn treats objects like woman man."

  20. I searched for what mattrag may be talking about and I found a write-up on why anabolic pump should be taken preworkout. I'll comment later, but the extrapolations and physiological significance are....iffy, to put it nicely.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69
    I searched for what mattrag may be talking about and I found a write-up on why anabolic pump should be taken preworkout. I'll comment later, but the extrapolations and physiological significance are....iffy, to put it nicely.
    Thanks bro. You da man.
    RecoverBro ELITE

  22. So everyone pretty much agrees on this thread that ALCAR and LCLT should be staples along with another Carnitine source starting with a P... Maybe PLCAR...? Something along those lines.

    Is there a supplement containing all 3 or is everyone individually buying these?

    I'm looking at getting those along with Na-R-Ala... Any brand recommendations of such supps that are being used would be great.

    Thank you to the Doc,Coop and all others contributing to this thread! I've learned a lot!
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Dvaldez5 View Post
    So everyone pretty much agrees on this thread that ALCAR and LCLT should be staples along with another Carnitine source starting with a P... Maybe PLCAR...? Something along those lines.

    Is there a supplement containing all 3 or is everyone individually buying these?

    I'm looking at getting those along with Na-R-Ala... Any brand recommendations of such supps that are being used would be great.

    Thank you to the Doc,Coop and all others contributing to this thread! I've learned a lot!
    I can't speak for Dr. Houser, but I think they should be staples, with ALCAR and LCLT at the forefront and PLCAR a close second.

    No supplement that I know of doses all 3 at 2g/day/

    Use Geronova-licensed Na-R-ALA here on NP.

  24. Been trying out creatinol-o-phosphate(prototype version) since Doc recommends it. Been taking 2gr. before work out and planned on upping it to 6 throughout the day. With only 2g. I´m getting bad explosive **** syndrome, and I rarely get that with supplements. Wondering if I can take it different somehow to avoid it?
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