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  1. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    To be clear, you would never "notice" a problem from pro-oxidation. While I don't see much evidence for vitamin C pro-oxidation besides dose-response curve extrapolations, the bottom line is that if you're supplementing over 500mg in one sitting, you are wasting your vitamin C, as the plasma saturation dose is indeed 500mg (http://www.pl.barc.usda.gov/downloads/jp28.pdf).

    Companies are stupid. People are stupid.
    And the Illuminati prey on this! Muhahaha! Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich for 2012!


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green
    And the Illuminati prey on this! Muhahaha! Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich for 2012!
    THIS!!!!!
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    So everyone pretty much agrees on this thread that ALCAR and LCLT should be staples along with another Carnitine source starting with a P... Maybe PLCAR...? Something along those lines.

    Is there a supplement containing all 3 or is everyone individually buying these?
    The moves like Jagr.

    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/b...-120-tabs.html

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Garyboy View Post
    Proprietary blended and underdosed.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69

    Proprietary blended and underdosed.
    My thoughts exactly...
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position
    •   
       


  6. Dr. D's thread is keeping on the right track.

    Will be receiving this in the mail shortly:
    Magnesium Glycinate
    CoQ10
    Selenium
    B-Right
    Jiaogulan

  7. I don't disagree per se; BUT my bigger issue is with tablet versus capsule on this one.

    I am not a fan of binders (yet another rationale behind all MVIs truly sucking - sorry, that's all I got scientifically on that one).

    But the reality is total carnitine concentration not salt-potential so underdosing is a matter of what is trying to be accomnplished. Just because a particular salt hasn't been studied for a particular effect, doesn't mean it is truly underdosed. Look for a remedy to this product very soon (hint).


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  8. Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I'm not sure about taking only 500mg vitamin c at a time. I took 1000mg tabs for at least a few months and never had any problem. Where is the proof that 1000mg is pro-oxident?. If it is then how come companies still sell 1000mg tabs?. I've read where people have taking much more than 1000mg at a time to help clear up colds and even cure serious sickness. Just google mega dosing vitamin c.
    The reality is what most physicians know and the lay-population may not...

    Most things are better in the morning anyway!

    Some feel as though doing "nothing," may not be worth the price of admission unfortunately. Is it truly Vitamin C that makes things better? Frankly, if we are talking from an immunity standpoint; I'd megadose Vitamin D and not C in said times as you are already experiencing an increased oxidation while ill anyway.

    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  9. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    To be clear, you would never "notice" a problem from pro-oxidation. While I don't see much evidence for vitamin C pro-oxidation besides dose-response curve extrapolations, the bottom line is that if you're supplementing over 500mg in one sitting, you are wasting your vitamin C, as the plasma saturation dose is indeed 500mg (http://www.pl.barc.usda.gov/downloads/jp28.pdf).

    Companies are stupid. People are stupid.
    This is actually a GREAT post!

    Thanks coop!


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  10. Consider the following exchange...

    Quote Originally Posted by Powercage View Post
    Cortisol control on a healthy individual wont translate into fat loss anyway
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxxxon View Post
    Could you expand on this please?

    Does that mean that products like LX, Abliderate etc have no effect? That would go against any positive feedback given by healthy individuals.

    Just curious.
    I think there is a distinction that need be made here as people are talking in absolutes and this is becoming untrue by default.

    Cortisol elevation and PERIODS of CONTROLLED catbolism are actually beneficial to fat loss efforts almost directly-proportional to the relative degree of muscle mass. In other words, the more muscular - the more pertinent cortisol control becomes and the dynamic shift in efficacy shifts in accordance with that.

    Protecting muscle mass and its metabolic effects DOES, in fact, appear to trump UNcontrolled catabolism (i.e. - working out in the AM on an empty stomach) which should shift the train of thought in a few ways.

    IF you MUST workout on an empty stomach, then agents like phosphatidylserine or 7-keto DHEA would hold pertinence (I spoke about this on a radio show this past week, which is available on the internet but it may be a competing forum, so for the sake of integrity - I will avoid posting the where). If you can have a pre-workout meal, however, there is probably little added benefit to per-workout cortisol control and the shift becomes one of needed catabolism. Its obvious to me with working with 1000s of individuals worldwide (now in 24 different countries) that people haven't a clue why they embark upon use of a supplement so it is sometimes prematurely dismissed (look at the story behind HMB amongst others, whereas a dose-response curve shifts well above 3 grams in the setting of the more experienced lifter - it just becomes less economical).

    In other words - cortisol CONTROL is important / not cortisol ABOLISHMENT and in some cases, supplementation may be more appropriate. This is the side where the so-called "real world" (and I am not speaking MTV sitcoms) and the "research world" tend to collide.

    Be careful how we're interpreting data please...

    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  11. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I can't speak for Dr. Houser, but I think they should be staples, with ALCAR and LCLT at the forefront and PLCAR a close second.

    No supplement that I know of doses all 3 at 2g/day/

    Use Geronova-licensed Na-R-ALA here on NP.
    Ha! Perhaps not (and maybe that is the PC version response), but you are certainly accomplishing quite the following here in my absence and I enjoy reading your comments.

    I do think that the total carnitine concentration is pertinent and oftentimes not addressed accordingly because of various supplement study directives. It is not to suggest certain carnitine salts would hold pertinence in different settings (in other words, that PLC couldn't be better suited for AR upregulation; just that they don't have the vested-interest studies that are done with LCLT). But, in the sense of evidence-based, a mixture of salts is what I recommend until research does better answer this question.

    Now, the problem (for anyone in manufacturing) with PLC is that it frankly is a sticky nightmare in manufacturing of quality PLC source, so - like the COP scenario - finding a quality source may be a true issue. I did mention a supplement on the horizon that manages to do what quadracarn may not - but the snag with its release was PLC, and unfortunately...LCF had to be used to replace production issues and I assure you that projects I am involved in are better-sourced that things you may find on the net elsewhere...period, so the issue is the ingredient unfortunately.

    But, yes, I do agree that carnitine salts (Possibly would agree with ALCAR > LCLT > PLC; don't care...probably comes down to total carnitine shuttling efforts anyway...so if you were going to go with one alone, I think even 6 grams of ALCAR would be the primary thought and so on if you could afford it, even moreso with wasted prop blended crap that people invest in or woefully fictitious sh*t that plagues supplement site storefronts) should be considered a staple in every serious lifter and life extension enthusiast period (and yes, Na-R-ALA as a coupling effort with ALCAR would be ideal for those well-versed in the benefits).

    See coop, you did generally well speaking for me.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  12. so dose morning and night split sittings

  13. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Good man. I am in disagreement with dinoiii in that the true benefit of LCLT is effects on recovery (of which increased AR density is actually a product). A great addition to any athlete/weightlifter's stack. 1-2g (and up to 4g) of LCLT have been proven effective, and 2g for PLCAR and ALCAR.
    I don't know that we disagree exactly.

    Post-workout, AR efficiency is at its highest. Could you prove supra-physiologic in that setting...probably; would cummulative effects at other times be more efficient? Hasn't been studied unfortunately.

    If you couple pre-workout niacin (roughly 2 grams of phospholipid-version Enduracin, mind you - I have no vested interest in this product...UNfortunately!); with post-workout LCLT ... you're probably getting the biggest bang for your buck. Pre-bedtime nutrition then could best be next described for which I think higher utility of Humanofort should be looked at in all honesty.

    But, hey...I won't let too many cats out of the bag...yet.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  14. Quote Originally Posted by kojack View Post
    so dose morning and night split sittings
    Of carnitine salts? Yes. My preferred would be 2 grams at 3 evenly-spaced timeframes.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  15. Oh, how I enjoy that Dr. D is back.

    I learn so much about why and how to supplement correctly from you. I actually keep notes of your protocols and suggestions.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    I don't know that we disagree exactly.

    Post-workout, AR efficiency is at its highest. Could you prove supra-physiologic in that setting...probably; would cummulative effects at other times be more efficient? Hasn't been studied unfortunately.

    If you couple pre-workout niacin (roughly 2 grams of phospholipid-version Enduracin, mind you - I have no vested interest in this product...UNfortunately!); with post-workout LCLT ... you're probably getting the biggest bang for your buck. Pre-bedtime nutrition then could best be next described for which I think higher utility of Humanofort should be looked at in all honesty.

    But, hey...I won't let too many cats out of the bag...yet.


    D_
    Dr. Houser,

    I'm really interested in the bold part. The only thing I have heard of Humanfort was that it is a waste of money. (Obviously, I haven't heard anything from a person with your background). However, the only studies I have found dealt with lipid metabolism in aged persons. Could you shed a little light on the use/purpose of Humanofort?

  17. Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    Dr. Houser,

    I'm really interested in the bold part. The only thing I have heard of Humanfort was that it is a waste of money. (Obviously, I haven't heard anything from a person with your background). However, the only studies I have found dealt with lipid metabolism in aged persons. Could you shed a little light on the use/purpose of Humanofort?
    I actually think the studies show quite the contrary - the problem (at least in some people's eyes), they are all Romanian... and in Romania, its actually still classified a drug. Many supplements GROSSLY underdose the thing, but effective dosing is a minimum of 300mg (if not more) - but in individuals with decreased IGF-1, we've had great response with Humanofort monotherapy.

    A company known as GEN used to have the best product dosed at 300mg...years later, Labrada picked it up and in the stand-alone, it was not remotely the same item as when I had used it in years previous out of GEN. Since the release of their HumanoGrowth, which I recently invested in (wary - to say the least) and over the course of the last 4 days - DOUBLE-DOSED mind you (so, 8 caps before bed)...I have had incredible sleep results and wake up feeling great (mind you, given my schedule - sleep is a hot commodity).

    So, if the science fits...Humanofort should lead to an elevation of 17-ketosteroid levels in the adrenal gland (my DHEA levels were low on a recent blood draw and decreased DHEA and/or IGF-1 levels are met with increased cardiovascular disarray). In fact, Humanofort has shown to raise these levels by as much as 68%! Increased 17-ketosteroid levels will mean increased lipid metabolism and improved anabolism, through an elevation of androgens and a decrease in the catabolic hormone cortisol (which has been talked about a great deal in this and many other threads in this subforum). The documented antioxidant proprieties will also limit exercise-induced free radical damage to muscle tissue (again - let's re-visit the utility when we have spoken of oxidation and the like in this thread). In any event, I will do a full review when done with the Labrada product - but again, double-dosed, so we are talking only a 15-day trial...but I would be happy to invest in it - even at the cost of the product for 15 day cycles IF it actually works; I will follow up with blood work too btw on my DHEA levels and any impact to adrenal steroids...stay tuned.




    1. Effects of Oral Administered Humanofort on Steroid Hormones Level and on Oxidative Stress” by Prof. Gh. Mihaescu, T. Stoica, F. Oancea, Medicine Pharmacy University „Carol Davila” Bucharest, Romania

    2. Oxidative Stress decrease in Old Age Patients Treated with Drugs Containing Embryonic Peptides Gh. Mihaescu, O. Mihaescu, I. Mihaescu, National Institute for Geriatrics and Gerontology „Ana Aslan”, Bucharest, Romania

    3. Clinical Trial of Humanofort Effect on Overweight Endocrinology Institute „C. I. Parhon” Bucharest, Romania




    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  18. ^^^

    You have definitely piqued my interest. So, is the effective dosing (beginning at 300mg) for healthy individuals, or those with decreased IGF-1 levels?

    What is the timing of your dosages?

    If you have the chance, please keep this thread updated with your results. I would rather base my supplement usage on studies and the knowledge of posters like you. All the information you provide really educates the board members.

  19. Okay, I have another question.

    How much of an increase in 17-ketosteroid levels is a good thing? I have read that high levels of 17-ketosteroid levels in urine may be an indication of an adrenal cortex or testicular tumor. Also, what other forms of 17-ketosteroids, beside DHEA, would be of interest to increase?

  20. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Ha! Perhaps not (and maybe that is the PC version response), but you are certainly accomplishing quite the following here in my absence and I enjoy reading your comments.

    I do think that the total carnitine concentration is pertinent and oftentimes not addressed accordingly because of various supplement study directives. It is not to suggest certain carnitine salts would hold pertinence in different settings (in other words, that PLC couldn't be better suited for AR upregulation; just that they don't have the vested-interest studies that are done with LCLT). But, in the sense of evidence-based, a mixture of salts is what I recommend until research does better answer this question.

    Now, the problem (for anyone in manufacturing) with PLC is that it frankly is a sticky nightmare in manufacturing of quality PLC source, so - like the COP scenario - finding a quality source may be a true issue. I did mention a supplement on the horizon that manages to do what quadracarn may not - but the snag with its release was PLC, and unfortunately...LCF had to be used to replace production issues and I assure you that projects I am involved in are better-sourced that things you may find on the net elsewhere...period, so the issue is the ingredient unfortunately.

    But, yes, I do agree that carnitine salts (Possibly would agree with ALCAR > LCLT > PLC; don't care...probably comes down to total carnitine shuttling efforts anyway...so if you were going to go with one alone, I think even 6 grams of ALCAR would be the primary thought and so on if you could afford it, even moreso with wasted prop blended crap that people invest in or woefully fictitious sh*t that plagues supplement site storefronts) should be considered a staple in every serious lifter and life extension enthusiast period (and yes, Na-R-ALA as a coupling effort with ALCAR would be ideal for those well-versed in the benefits).

    See coop, you did generally well speaking for me.


    D_
    This is a great point. The carnitine moiety is likely what is responsible for the effects of LCLT on AR density and recovery, but at the same time, we do not know if other carnitine salts can accomplish this end result due to the fact that LCLT has superior kinetics/half-life. As far as ALCAR and PLCAR, I think most of the documented benefits are exclusive to those salts. For instance, the nootropic effect (acetate donation) of ALCAR and the cardioprotective effect (Propionyl-CoA elevation in cardiomyocytes) of PLCAR would be exclusive to those two forms.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    To be clear, you would never "notice" a problem from pro-oxidation. While I don't see much evidence for vitamin C pro-oxidation besides dose-response curve extrapolations, the bottom line is that if you're supplementing over 500mg in one sitting, you are wasting your vitamin C, as the plasma saturation dose is indeed 500mg (http://www.pl.barc.usda.gov/downloads/jp28.pdf).

    Companies are stupid. People are stupid.
    Although I wouldn't take 500mg+ in a serving, I wouldn't say 1000mg in a single sitting is "wasting your vitamin C".

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11771678

  22. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Although I wouldn't take 500mg+ in a serving, I wouldn't say 1000mg in a single sitting is "wasting your vitamin C".

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11771678
    I much prefer the government study that I linked citing the 500mg plasma saturation dose. This particular study has sample sizes of two individuals, which is one of the worst I've ever seen.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I much prefer the government study that I linked citing the 500mg plasma saturation dose. This particular study has sample sizes of two individuals, which is one of the worst I've ever seen.
    Touche.. I posted that without fully reading.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69

    I much prefer the government study that I linked citing the 500mg plasma saturation dose. This particular study has sample sizes of two individuals, which is one of the worst I've ever seen.
    Saw that coming... Lol

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn
    Touche.. I posted that without fully reading.
    Gotta be on point to challenge Coop buddy. Bring that A game ; )
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    Saw that coming... Lol



    Gotta be on point to challenge Coop buddy. Bring that A game ; )
    I was searching other forums to see where I thought Andy from Driven Sports had a good full-text on 1g being plasma saturation. Alas, couldn't find it. I may have made this all up; certainly one of the two.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    I was searching other forums to see where I thought Andy from Driven Sports had a good full-text on 1g being plasma saturation. Alas, couldn't find it. I may have made this all up; certainly one of the two.
    I have actually discussed this with Andy: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...2225591&page=1

  27. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I have actually discussed this with Andy: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...2225591&page=1
    I completely forgot about that thread.. I was even part of it.

    We're going to chalk this miscommunication down as a result of a long day at work.


  28. Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    Okay, I have another question.

    How much of an increase in 17-ketosteroid levels is a good thing? I have read that high levels of 17-ketosteroid levels in urine may be an indication of an adrenal cortex or testicular tumor. Also, what other forms of 17-ketosteroids, beside DHEA, would be of interest to increase?
    Bump for Humanofort information.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by domore View Post
    Okay, I have another question.

    How much of an increase in 17-ketosteroid levels is a good thing? I have read that high levels of 17-ketosteroid levels in urine may be an indication of an adrenal cortex or testicular tumor. Also, what other forms of 17-ketosteroids, beside DHEA, would be of interest to increase?
    Bump for Humanofort information.

  30. Curious, do you suggest taking r-ala or NAC when taking the Carnitine combo you put on your list?
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