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    Quote Originally Posted by houstontexas View Post
    Coop do you have any input on whether a greens supplement like I posted above is worth the cost? I think Green Vibrance runs about $50-$55 for a 60 day supply and has one of the most extensive profiles I've seen.
    Eat like 3 different coloured fruits day; for variety and other benefits and have some yoghurt with added probiotics. Supplementation is only necerssary if you can't obtain it from food (whether that be because you dont liek the food or you just cant eat it for religious/personal reasons i.e vegtarians should supplement with b12 and iron; in my line of work anyway)

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    Went ahead and purchased vitamin d3. It's very affordable so I guess I'll see if there are actually any benefits once I've taken it for a while.
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    Also ordered some Coq10. Looking it up there are so many benefits to taking it, so I'll likely keep taking as a staple supplement. Thanks for your help mr.cooper.
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    I wonder where dr.d went though.
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    Isn't Coq10 more beneficial for older people, as in 30+?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuZo
    Isn't Coq10 more beneficial for older people, as in 30+?
    Wow...feeling old now. Lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14

    Wow...feeling old now. Lol
    me too...just turned 32 wednesday
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuZo View Post
    Isn't Coq10 more beneficial for older people, as in 30+?
    Yes. The older, the more beneficial (in theory).
    http://pescience.com/
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Yes. The older, the more beneficial (in theory).
    Due to increased statin levels?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuZo View Post
    Due to increased statin levels?
    No, not particularly
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    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Is Ubiquinol in any way superior to CoQ10?.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Is Ubiquinol in any way superior to CoQ10?.
    Since the body converts ubiquinone into ubiquinol, there is an extra step involved, and not all of the ingested ubiquinone gets converted into ubiquinol. In healthy people, over 90% of the CoQ10 in the blood is in the form of ubiquinol, but as you get older, both the total level of coenzyme Q10 and the body's ability to turn it into ubiquinol decline (this is probably, although not clearly identified in research, something that begins at a very young age - like 20-25 years and continues to decline like the hormone milleu that you see with testosterone, et al...).

    Note that this doesn't mean that taking ubiquinone is ineffective; all it means is that taking ubiquinol is more effective. If you are in your twenties, your body can probably convert much of the ubiquinone into ubiquinol, which means that you can save money and get the cheaper form (then again, this may mean that you probably don't need supplemental CoQ10 in the first place, although I am unsure given the effects, that you'd go wrong even in a state of "excess" although again - not clearly identified). If, on the other hand, you are over forty or concerned about your heart health, it may be worthwhile to go for the ubiquinol.

    So how much ubiquinone is pure ubiquinol equal to? According to Kaneka, apparently the only manufacturer of ubiquinol, ubiquinol is up to six times as effective as ubiquinone in increasing blood levels of ubiquinol. So to get the same effect, you could take one sixth of the amount as ubiquinol compared to ubiquinone. But read the "up to" part of that statement; its long-since been suggested to use two times as much ubiqinone versus ubiquinol, but this number probably isn't that static.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Since the body converts ubiquinone into ubiquinol, there is an extra step involved, and not all of the ingested ubiquinone gets converted into ubiquinol. In healthy people, over 90% of the CoQ10 in the blood is in the form of ubiquinol, but as you get older, both the total level of coenzyme Q10 and the body's ability to turn it into ubiquinol decline (this is probably, although not clearly identified in research, something that begins at a very young age - like 20-25 years and continues to decline like the hormone milleu that you see with testosterone, et al...).

    Note that this doesn't mean that taking ubiquinone is ineffective; all it means is that taking ubiquinol is more effective. If you are in your twenties, your body can probably convert much of the ubiquinone into ubiquinol, which means that you can save money and get the cheaper form (then again, this may mean that you probably don't need supplemental CoQ10 in the first place, although I am unsure given the effects, that you'd go wrong even in a state of "excess" although again - not clearly identified). If, on the other hand, you are over forty or concerned about your heart health, it may be worthwhile to go for the ubiquinol.

    So how much ubiquinone is pure ubiquinol equal to? According to Kaneka, apparently the only manufacturer of ubiquinol, ubiquinol is up to six times as effective as ubiquinone in increasing blood levels of ubiquinol. So to get the same effect, you could take one sixth of the amount as ubiquinol compared to ubiquinone. But read the "up to" part of that statement; its long-since been suggested to use two times as much ubiqinone versus ubiquinol, but this number probably isn't that static.


    D_

    So after reading that I'm still not sure what would be the superior product to take, either CoQ10 or Ubiquinol. I just purchased a 60 count bottle of CoQ10 400 mg a week or so ago. I'll continue to take that till I run out but I'm wondering if I should switch to Ubiquinol at that time and what dosage to run. I'm currently just taking one 400mg CoQ10 cap a day. I just turned 40 at the end of July. Heart disease/High Cholesterol/Type 2 Diabetes/Stroke/dementia all in family history. So I'd like to take some preventative measures including supplementation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    So after reading that I'm still not sure what would be the superior product to take, either CoQ10 or Ubiquinol.
    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Since the body converts ubiquinone into ubiquinol, there is an extra step involved, and not all of the ingested ubiquinone gets converted into ubiquinol. In healthy people, over 90% of the CoQ10 in the blood is in the form of ubiquinol, but as you get older, both the total level of coenzyme Q10 and the body's ability to turn it into ubiquinol decline (this is probably, although not clearly identified in research, something that begins at a very young age - like 20-25 years and continues to decline like the hormone milleu that you see with testosterone, et al...).

    Note that this doesn't mean that taking ubiquinone is ineffective; all it means is that taking ubiquinol is more effective. If you are in your twenties, your body can probably convert much of the ubiquinone into ubiquinol, which means that you can save money and get the cheaper form (then again, this may mean that you probably don't need supplemental CoQ10 in the first place, although I am unsure given the effects, that you'd go wrong even in a state of "excess" although again - not clearly identified). If, on the other hand, you are over forty or concerned about your heart health, it may be worthwhile to go for the ubiquinol.

    So how much ubiquinone is pure ubiquinol equal to? According to Kaneka, apparently the only manufacturer of ubiquinol, ubiquinol is up to six times as effective as ubiquinone in increasing blood levels of ubiquinol. So to get the same effect, you could take one sixth of the amount as ubiquinol compared to ubiquinone. But read the "up to" part of that statement; its long-since been suggested to use two times as much ubiqinone versus ubiquinol, but this number probably isn't that static.


    D_


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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    .............

    Ok yeah it seems quite clear that ubiquinol would be a better choice. What about dosage though and expense?. Would it be cheaper to just get a higher dosage CoQ10 than a lower dosed ubiquinol?.
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    Plus I was half asleep when I read that post. Literally was falling asleep. Just woke up from a nap now. I'm old, I need naps and clarification of simple concepts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Ok yeah it seems quite clear that ubiquinol would be a better choice. What about dosage though and expense?. Would it be cheaper to just get a higher dosage CoQ10 than a lower dosed ubiquinol?.
    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    So how much ubiquinone is pure ubiquinol equal to? According to Kaneka, apparently the only manufacturer of ubiquinol, ubiquinol is up to six times as effective as ubiquinone in increasing blood levels of ubiquinol. So to get the same effect, you could take one sixth of the amount as ubiquinol compared to ubiquinone.

    But read the "up to" part of that statement; its long-since been suggested to use two times as much ubiqinone versus ubiquinol, but this number probably isn't that static.



    D_
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    ...
    Also I had no idea that CoQ10 was also known as "Ubiquinone" so that easily confused me. Also "Kaneka" is the manufacturer of Ubiquinol so how do I know that they aren't just making making these numbers up. Its the same with with fish oil versus krill oil. Krill oil was supposed to be so much "better" than fish oil but that has turned out to be make believe.
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    I agree with you on the Krill. I never bought the hype.

    In Dino's final sentence, he suggest a 2:1 efficacy as the accepted values. Seems like a realisitic guesstimate (which is the best you're going to get) due to the down stream conversion.
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    Hi Dr. D,

    You mention multi-vitamins being a waste. Do you still think this is the case for someone who takes a PPI(Zegerid 20 bid)?

    Since most of the malabsorption seems to be around B vitamins and some minerals, I take a mineral supplement like ZMK or Source Naturals Life Minerals already and pepper in C and B's throughout day. My questions on this part are: Is that still a waste? and Do you know of any guidelines for how much extra B, K, and Minerals a PPI user needs?

    I can't find anything other than that they can cause a deficiency. I want to get enough magnesium, especially, but not too much.

    Thanks for taking the time to read my long-winded question.
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    How is zinc not number one, let alone not even on this list? Many men are deficient in it and it is what men's bodies are based on. Men are zinc based, women are copper based. It also controls over 3% of our gene expression and researchers have found "zinc fingers" which are areas of our DNA that require zinc to be able to "turn on" the genes.

    Zinc also down regulates aromatase and is a very strong AI by itself. In fact German bodybuilders have taken 200 mg of zinc per day as their AI. Zinc is also key for many enzyme processes to work properly and especially key in production of Testosterone and digestion. Without zinc you cannot produce.
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    Stomach acid which means your digestion is subpar at best. I believe most people would be surprised to find they are deficient in zinc. You can buy a liquid zinc challenge for about 8 bucks that will let you know. Money well spent, IMO.

    Personally I think zinc is number one and its not particularly close. B complex is important as well since it is a cofactor in many zinc reactions and they work together...

    By definition if you are low in zinc, you are high in copper as they are antagonists and when one rises, the other falls. The higher copper you have, the more female you become as excess copper produces estrogen...zinc definitely is NOT something you want to be deficient in.

    Also do not underestimate the possibility you might be deficient in zinc. Just because you take zinc does not mean it is being absorbed properly. Heavy metals that are prevalent in our environment such as mercury are preferred to zinc by the body as they are a denser heavier metal and bind to the zinc receptor leaving fewer of them available for performing their proper function. These heavier metals do not cut properly like a round peg in a square hole but effectively block zinc from being absorbed. Taking zinc but still zinc deficient? Try heavy metal detoxing as it will pull those metals blocking the receptors and free them up
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    Quote Originally Posted by matter2003 View Post
    Stomach acid which means your digestion is subpar at best. I believe most people would be surprised to find they are deficient in zinc. You can buy a liquid zinc challenge for about 8 bucks that will let you know. Money well spent, IMO.

    Personally I think zinc is number one and its not particularly close. B complex is important as well since it is a cofactor in many zinc reactions and they work together...

    By definition if you are low in zinc, you are high in copper as they are antagonists and when one rises, the other falls. The higher copper you have, the more female you become as excess copper produces estrogen...zinc definitely is NOT something you want to be deficient in.

    Also do not underestimate the possibility you might be deficient in zinc. Just because you take zinc does not mean it is being absorbed properly. Heavy metals that are prevalent in our environment such as mercury are preferred to zinc by the body as they are a denser heavier metal and bind to the zinc receptor leaving fewer of them available for performing their proper function. These heavier metals do not cut properly like a round peg in a square hole but effectively block zinc from being absorbed. Taking zinc but still zinc deficient? Try heavy metal detoxing as it will pull those metals blocking the receptors and free them up
    Any specific way you could tell if you are zinc deficient?
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    There is no reason to supplement with zinc, especially if you are on a high protein diet. There is PLENTY of Zinc in food. You can get all you need and more from your diet.
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    Yes, its very easy and very cheap. Get a liquid zinc challenge solution which you can find on Amazon.com for like 8 bucks and probably has 50 or more uses, take two tablespoons of this and hold it in your mouth until you get some type of taste. Proper zinc levels are denoted by a mettallic taste in the mouth quickly. Low levels are denoted by a hydrogen peroxide taste and very low to non existent levels are denoted by no taste. The longer it takes for a taste to occur the lower the levels are.
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    Double post, mods please delete
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    Double post...not sure why it keeps doing this from my phone...sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    There is no reason to supplement with zinc, especially if you are on a high protein diet. There is PLENTY of Zinc in food. You can get all you need and more from your diet.

    I think it would be shocking to see how many men are deficient in zinc. Again you need to understand that zinc and copper are antagonists and as one is raised the other is lowered. Think you get a lit of zinc from eating meat? I guarantee you that is nothing compared to the amount of copper you get from drinking and showering in water that is traveling through hundreds of miles of copper pipes and eating food cooked in copper pots and pans. Not to mention lots of foods contain copper as well such as vegetables...considering men are supposed to have a 10:1 ratio of zinc:copper and it doesn't take much copper to require a crapload more zinc.


    Also remember taking lots of zinc or eating lots of zinc doesn't mean its being absorbed. If you high in toxic heavy metals which many people unknowingly are, those receptors for zinc are already occupied by those heavier denser metals. Zinc in this case would be like a car looking for a parking spot in a full parking lot...driving around with nowhere to go.

    Zinc deficiency is much more common than you believe...
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    It's almost as if your trying to sell Zinc......Lmao at high in toxic heavy heavy metals!!....I'm really not worried about that sorry. Ridiculousness!
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    It's almost as if your trying to sell Zinc......Lmao at high in toxic heavy heavy metals!!....I'm really not worried about that sorry. Ridiculousness!
    I have nothing to sell. Forget zinc challenges, I got something you can do for free. If you have hangnails or white spots in your nails, you are likely deficient in zinc. Easy enough to check.

    Love how you completely ignore the fact that copper intake from water traveling through copper pipes you drink and shower in(largest intake area of the body is the skin) more than negates your zinc intake in most cases or at least severely lowers the 10:1 ratio men should have. But its not surprising when people don't understand how things work, I guess its to be expected. This doesn't even begin to talk about how the body uses up zinc in large quantities when under stress along with B vitamins, but you are having a hard enough time with what I have already brought up.

    As far as heavy metals with the prevalence of it only an idiot would laugh at that, to put it bluntly.
    I am heavy metal toxic and I don't really find it ****ing funny. Think its ridiculous when you start having uncontrollable muscle and eyelid twitching, fatigue all day long, dark circles under your eyes, low thyroid, difficulty concentrating and remembering, speech that occassionally slurs, liver and kidney impairment and the depletion of glutathione in the body and uncountable other symptoms that mimic lots of other conditions but are actually caused by heavy metals. Not to mention it completely F's up your endocrine system.

    Yeah that real ****ing funny you uneducated, ignorant jackass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by matter2003 View Post

    I have nothing to sell. Forget zinc challenges, I got something you can do for free. If you have hangnails or white spots in your nails, you are deficient in zinc. Easy enough to check. Love how you completely ignore the fact that copper intake from water traveling through copper pipes you drink and shower in(largest intake area of the body is the skin) more than negates your zinc intake in most cases or at least severely lowers the 10:1 ratio men should have. But its not surprising when people don't understand how things work, I guess its to be expected.

    As far as heavy metals with the prevalence of it only an idiot would laugh at that, to put it bluntly.
    I am heavy metal toxic and I don't really find it ****ing funny. Think its ridiculous when you start having uncontrollable muscle and eyelid twitching, fatigue all day long, dark circles under your eyes, low thyroid, difficulty concentrating and remembering, speech that occassionally slurs, liver and kidney impairment and the depletion of glutathione in the body and uncountable other symptoms that mimic lots of other conditions but are actually caused by heavy metals. Not to mention it completely F's up your endocrine system.

    Yeah that real ****ing funny you uneducated, ignorant jackass.
    Well I neither have hang nails or white spots on my nails (though I thought those were calcium deposits) so I guess I'm good
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    Quote Originally Posted by uvawahoowa View Post
    Well I neither have hang nails or white spots on my nails (though I thought those were calcium deposits) so I guess I'm good
    Its one of the easiest signs of zinc deficiency along with hangnails and stretch marks on the skin
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    Quote Originally Posted by matter2003 View Post

    I think it would be shocking to see how many men are deficient in zinc. Again you need to understand that zinc and copper are antagonists and as one is raised the other is lowered. Think you get a lit of zinc from eating meat? I guarantee you that is nothing compared to the amount of copper you get from drinking and showering in water that is traveling through hundreds of miles of copper pipes and eating food cooked in copper pots and pans. Not to mention lots of foods contain copper as well such as vegetables...considering men are supposed to have a 10:1 ratio of zinc:copper and it doesn't take much copper to require a crapload more zinc.


    Also remember taking lots of zinc or eating lots of zinc doesn't mean its being absorbed. If you high in toxic heavy metals which many people unknowingly are, those receptors for zinc are already occupied by those heavier denser metals. Zinc in this case would be like a car looking for a parking spot in a full parking lot...driving around with nowhere to go.

    Zinc deficiency is much more common than you believe...
    A zinc surplus antagonizes copper much more strongly than a copper surplus antagonizes zinc absorption
    http://pescience.com/
    http://selectprotein.com/
    The above is my own opinion and does not reflect the opinion of PES
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    Gotta tell you.

    I bought into the probiotics hype and wasted money for a year straight on some expensive ones.

    Couldn't afford them anymore, been off for 9 months now, didnt notice JACK of a difference and I dont even yogurt or heck - any of the 10 top probitocs foods listed here http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/n...obiotic-foods/

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    and have some yoghurt with added probiotics.
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    I started using the "health supplements", recomended by Dana in this thread, and I have made better gains and lost fat(I can see my abs) in the past 8 months, than I had in the prior 5 years. I am in better shape, feel better, and have not been sick since starting this. I did not use any test boosters, or any type of supplements like that during this time. Just whey protein, a preworkout and creatine mono. I am even thinking of competing(the guys at my gym say I should), for the first time. I would have never thought I would get to that level, but I am told I am close(and I have not really been dieting for a show, trying to clean bulk actually). Just wondering if any one else had success doing this?
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    So I got my daily health stack down for the most part...

    (in no particular order)

    1. Ubiquinol @ 400mg
    2. Curcumin @ 1g (should I dose higher than this due to poor bio-availability?)
    3. Jarrow B-Right @ 1 capsule/day and 5000mcg Methyl B12 tablets
    4. MAN Orotine/Clout (3g Creatine Orotate)
    5. Vitamin D3 5000 I.U.
    6. Vitamin C @ 250mg twice/daily
    7. LEF Super Selenium Complex (200mcg)
    8. MagTein (Magnesium L-Theronate @ 2g)
    9. Beta alanine/LCLT/Leucine I get from Body Octane/Clout and Figure Fuel
    10. Biotivia Pteromax (1 capsule/day)


    What does everyone think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MustangManGT View Post
    So I got my daily health stack down for the most part...(in no particular order)1. Ubiquinol @ 400mg2. Curcumin @ 1g (should I dose higher than this due to poor bio-availability?)3. Jarrow B-Right @ 1 capsule/day and 5000mcg Methyl B12 tablets 4. MAN Orotine/Clout (3g Creatine Orotate)5. Vitamin D3 5000 I.U.6. Vitamin C @ 250mg twice/daily7. LEF Super Selenium Complex (200mcg)8. MagTein (Magnesium L-Theronate @ 2g)9. Beta alanine/LCLT/Leucine I get from Body Octane/Clout and Figure Fuel10. Biotivia Pteromax (1 capsule/day)What does everyone think?
    That's a hefty dose of ubiquinol. Also, my recent med school studies have led me to believe that supplementing CoQ10 as a healthy youngster is pretty much a waste of money. You can probably just ditch the curcumin too, unless you have some sort of inflammatory disorder.The dose of magnesium may be too high as well. The rest looks great. Consider, for health:Green Tea ExtractGreen Coffee Bean ExtractBetaine Anhydrous81mg Aspirin
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    That's a hefty dose of ubiquinol. Also, my recent med school studies have led me to believe that supplementing CoQ10 as a healthy youngster is pretty much a waste of money. You can probably just ditch the curcumin too, unless you have some sort of inflammatory disorder.The dose of magnesium may be too high as well. The rest looks great. Consider, for health:Green Tea ExtractGreen Coffee Bean ExtractBetaine Anhydrous81mg Aspirin

    What about in regards to ubiquinol's ability to to change type 1 muscle fiber to type 2? Is that more-so applied to the elderly? I have painful joints, so I thought curcumin may be able to help in that aspect. I'm just dosing the MagTein as the label states since i'm not familiar with much research around it outside the MIT studies, but it does sound promising so I thought i'd give it a try.

    I'm a big tea drinker, so hopefully i'm getting enough EGCG through that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MustangManGT View Post
    What about in regards to ubiquinol's ability to to change type 1 muscle fiber to type 2? Is that more-so applied to the elderly? I have painful joints, so I thought curcumin may be able to help in that aspect. I'm just dosing the MagTein as the label states since i'm not familiar with much research around it outside the MIT studies, but it does sound promising so I thought i'd give it a try.

    I'm a big tea drinker, so hopefully i'm getting enough EGCG through that.
    It would indeed apply moreso to the elderly. I also pose the question: why do you want to change muscle fiber distribution? Type I fibers are usually just fine where they are, and there could be health implications of altering local skeletal muscle metabolism.

    Ditch the curcumin and get cissus. Curcumin delivery to the musculoskeletal system is incredibly limited.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    It would indeed apply moreso to the elderly. I also pose the question: why do you want to change muscle fiber distribution? Type I fibers are usually just fine where they are, and there could be health implications of altering local skeletal muscle metabolism.Ditch the curcumin and get cissus. Curcumin delivery to the musculoskeletal system is incredibly limited.
    I guess I just misunderstood the fundamentals muscle fiber distribution. I just started taking cissus as well as taking AL Achiles which has some cissus in it.
  

  
 

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