i am also in for this one, great issues such as hcg, and the like!
will have some questions soon as well on perhaps hrt/trt if the doc cares to elicit an answer to ay of them?
As a Natural body builder i am sometimes tempted by some of the anabolic products that are becoming available. What are your thoughts on some of the new pro-hormones coming to the market that are derivatives of DHEA (such as the primordial performance andro-series)? Are they as 'safe' as they are made out to be?
Has any scientific literature shown permanently damaged HPTAs from the use of anabolic androgenic steroids?
You hear lots of anecdotal horror stories on the forums, but every piece of data I've read shows the hormone levels return to homeostasis, it can just take a long time (one study on deca took a year for recovery).
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DHEA has been tricky to understand on many levels; let alone it's metabolites - despite what marketing may suggest. Assuming your avatar is, in fact, you - you look like a pretty young guy for which I would say, skip it and save a boatload of money as they are being charged for at a VERY high dollar amount if I recall correctly.
But aside from just cost...
One concern I have is with those using it in search of an anabolic offering; the degree of how upstream the metabolite will influence anabolic/catabolic offering (yes, DHEA and it's metabolites CAN ALSO BE CATABOLIC). Then, of course, you must factor in a dose-dependency...with higher levels, you may achieve better results - but there is another edge to that sword.
DHEA inhibits glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PDH), an enzyme that breaks down glucose. There are two glucose-metabolizing pathways in the body: the catabolic, energy-yielding pathway, and the anabolic, biosynthetic pathway. G6PDH happens to be the first enzyme in the biosynthetic pathway, the one which results in the synthesis of fatty acids and ribose (the sugar used in making deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA). In simple language, G6PDH turns glucose into fat. DHEA's inhibition of G6PDH may redirect glucose from anabolic fat-production into catabolic energy metabolism, thus creating a leaner metabolism.
While that may sound great from a fat loss standpoint, keep in mind that UNLESS you are suffering from a significant decline in DHEA (and, obviously it's metabolites...like people from an aged standpoint), then you will likely not see precipitous benefit. Also, being too far upstream might also mean shunting down an estrogenic cascade. Again, I understand the claims and understand the suggestion of manufacturers that this not be a possibility or suggesting a bit of estrogen is not a bad thing for muscle growth (that's really pushing the envelope btw). Let me make it abundantly clear - perhaps with an exclusion of the 7-keto pathway; a lot of these metabolites are POORLY understood despite the best suggestion by manufacturers and I would argue it to the death (and I am possibly dubbed a bad guy as a result, a tag I am willing to wear).
At the same time, the consumer remains optimistic (hopefully in a cautious fashion) that maybe, just maybe...something will "save" us from all the oral PH/PS/DS bans meanwhile embracing the role of being guinea pigs for certain companies and nothing more.
Now - you may think I am adamantly against their use with my response, BUT that is far from the case...I am ALL FOR experimentation and pushing the ergogenic envelope (in fact, I have done plenty of it in my day and sometimes still do - see DAA stuff, et al...) with the idea that everyone understands what they are doing and to the best of our ability (I think that this falls short a lot unfortunately) and not sugar-coating it or being dubious in presentation. In other words, if you are going to play the role of an experimental participant; understand all the potential risks and benefits.
Moving to the products in question...there have been some things Primordial has done that left me scratching my head and while I can't immediately write off the "Andro Series" products (I'll get to the why in a minute), I am fearful that donning the name "Andro" has a connotation that is very dubious - trying to allow the consumer to jump on a certain train of thought that may not exactly be the case.
DHEA has been referenced as a "Buffering Steroid" - but we're hoping its steroid offering is not just structure alone. DHEA and its metabolites may be unique among hormones for its lack of specificity for hormone receptor sites. Just as vitamin E has never been shown to have a specific metabolic role (it is only proven essential as a general antioxidant), DHEA and metabolites may serve an equally general purpose and that's not necessarily a bad thing. They are broad-acting hormones that only demonstrate themselves under a specific set of circumstances. In that way, it is comparable to a buffer against sudden changes in acidity or alkalinity. That is why when you get older, you're much more vulnerable to the effects of stress. As DHEA and subsequently metabolites decline with age, you are losing the buffer against stress-related hormones. It is the buffer action that [helps prevent] us from aging. The decrease of DHEA and metabolites with age may result in gradual decline of a system for suppressing enzyme systems responsible for creating the building blocks of new cells, such as lipids, nucleic acids (RNA and DNA), and sex steroids. The resulting rise in enzymatic activity in advanced age may be responsible for the proliferative events (e.g., cancer) and degenerative disease that become more frequent in advanced age. In this respect, DHEA and metabolites might be best considered to be an anti-hormone, which may "de-excite" steroid-sensitive receptors that would otherwise lead to enhanced metabolic activity.
Now - the adrenal gland is fun, imperative, and without it you'd not be able to cope with stress and die! That's pretty drastic; one might see the workout timeframe as a period of significant stress that allows even the youngest person achieve a biochemical profile of the aged. In other words, if results are to be achieved and they are measurable, they are going to be in the acute workout setting...especially with extension of workouts beyond the 45-55 minute mark and nothing more.
From a "safety" standpoint; I don't know enough about you to make such an outrageous assessment nor do I believe anyone could say with 100% certainty that they understand the safety features of ANY of these metabolites. I would be doing you a disservice to saying I know how such a supplement could benefit your particular case. For starters, you are young...but as I said above, while your levels may not be down...in an acute setting or if you are even overttraining; the products may harbor a benefit...but I know nothing about your regimen.
If you're competing...in a truly "natural" fashion - which I think kind of goes the way of the dinosaur as I think 100% of people aren't "natural" in its truest dimensions (i.e. - excess food which is anabolic, supplements which are unnatural in tallies and so on...). But, let's say you compete in a natural show...then you may run into some resistance from use.
I can't blame temptation. When Androstenedione was first released (around the time OSMO was making it - ha... you can ask Patrick Arnold about that project), I went out of my way to find it ... I was bright-eyed, bushy-tailed and in my early years of endocrine development. We subsequently discovered quite a bit more about it and I wish I hadn't taken it (possibly how you'd feel with multiple years of these metabolites on the market, I am unsure). But - there's a point...you're still looking to achieve your best physique; to better yourself...and I cannot fault the concept.
Would it do you benefit in the acute setting of a workout? Possibly. Is it going to be so astronomic that it will make a precipitous difference in the long-term? Probably not. If you're going to invest in something, I'd say - let the other guy be the guinea pig. There are things that are available that are more "tried and true." Am I endorsing illegal use of anything? NO WAY! But, I am saying that government has made the situation far from enticing to say the things that remain are the SAFEST, we just don't know enough (and again, I will take on all challengers that would like to protest that).
Where does that leave you? No idea. I am willing to bet with 100% certainy that anything I say will cure your curiosity. You are either going to embark on the media-based "darkside" or you're not. Just be as well informed as you can (kind of hard in this situation) and maybe understand that the decisions to remain "natural" (whatever the hell that means anymore) is a "moral" one and probably nothing more.
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And the average recovery actually is cited at about 22 months! Plan accordingly!You hear lots of anecdotal horror stories on the forums, but every piece of data I've read shows the hormone levels return to homeostasis, it can just take a long time (one study on deca took a year for recovery).
That said, in the above case - we're talking suppression still existent at 3 years! Not anecdote; but literature citation, if that's what we're using to best assess.
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What are your thoughts on Bioidentical Testosterone Replacemnt Therapy as opposed to synthetic. My new Doc. switched me over about 3 months ago. I have read some interesting things about it on BodyLogic and other sites. I wuold love to hear your opinion.....
first off, let me just thank you for taking your time to answer our questions and help us out on these message boards.
i just wanted to ask a few specific questions. im planning on asking my doctor the same questions next time i have to see him, but always like to have a few different opinions (plus, ive got a high copay and dont want to have to pay to see him just to ask about steroids haha).
now, i know you dont condone or promote steroid use (im sure my doctor doesnt either, which is why im going to ask you just like i plan on asking him)... but.... after working out for 10 years, being at the point where i leave EVERYTHING in the gym, eat 5-7 meals a day, count calories, etc, etc, my gains have slowed down to the point where i honestly feel like im approaching my natural peak (i have a very small frame for someone my height, so 6'2-6'3 210 isnt quite as small as it sounds on paper lol). with that said, there is a very good chance i will turn to anabolics within the next couple of years, after trying a few last ditch efforts on anabeta, erase, daa and a few other newer supps, but want to be as safe as possible.
the problem is, i have anxiety, and take citalopram for it (ive worked my way from 40mg at one point, down to 5mg where i am now, but just cant seem to come off the damn stuff altogether). also, at one point my blood pressure was around 140-145/85-90, but now sits in the 120's/70-80's.
i was under the assumption that the the androseries was kind of a 'break through' in anabolics, where the side effects or risks are VERY minimal (however, they also yield more 'minimal' gains than harsher compounds, which i figured was the trade off).
i was just wondering what kind of SPECIFIC long term effects you were speaking of may apply to someone like myself, a 25 year old who eats fairly clean (find it hard sometimes to get over 3000 calories a day clean though), and whether my medication, blood pressure or anxiety would be affected by either the steroid or a serm. i spoke to a couple of pharmacists who told me nolvadex is pretty light on sides, and i shouldnt have a problem with it, but they were unfamiliar with stuff like torem.
lastly, if someone is dead set on using something, in your opinion, would it be better to 'be the guinea pig' with something thats SUPPOSED to be mild on the body, like andromass, or something that may be slightly harsher but has been around a bit longer like epistane? (andromass also piqued my interest because of how many people i saw 'recovering' with just the TRS+TCF1 stack, as opposed to having to use a serm with something like epistane, which is a whole other concern of mine)
thanks a lot!
Doc, put quite frankly, what do you think are the safest DS/PH out today? No brand name necessary...we can do the legwork on that.
What is your thoughts on pulsing something like Epistane to minimize suppression or shutdown?
40mg 3 times a week monday, wednesday and friday.
Check my AnaBeta, Erase and DAA log at:
Absolutely subbed... No brainer imo
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One question i have from your response. You said that these suppliments could be beneficial in an acute workout setting if workouts are over 45mins (ish). My workouts tend to be on the 90min-100 min range (with cardio) and are quite intense for the whole period. My shirt is dripping with sweat by the end of the workout.
Are you saying that these supplements could be of benefit in this case? or would you need a detailed outline of my workouts regimen to know?
Subbed for any info on oral steroids and responsible use. (if we can even call orals responsible lol)
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