BCAA discussion thread

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  1. BCAA discussion thread


    It is often stated to consume Branched-Chain-Amino-Acids (BCAAs) in a "scientifically-specified" ratio of 2:1:1 - leucine:isoleucine:valine or is it 4:1:1 or some products suggesting 8:1:1 or bound to sustamine (glutamine-bound) or micronized or... Get the point? This thread is designated to address ANY and ALL questions pertaining to particular BCAA supplements and more.

    Example real-life question:

    Q: Could you pleease elaborate on (or point me in the direction) how BCAA supplementation is detrimental to baseline metabolicaly inefficient users, and what dosing parameters and importance it serves in athletes with a more efficient metabolism? I remember a forum post where you mention this protocol but was not able to find any of your additional writings on it.

    A: This does not seem to be an issue with just leucine alone seeing as though this is the ONLY strict ketogenic amino acid; but isoleucine and valine (at least in part) have some glucogenic offering (in other words, an amino acid that can be converted into glucose through gluconeogenesis). You are primarily concerned with glycemic variation as a metabolically-inefficient person and these aminos scattered about the day cause GLYCEMIC GRIEF. And yes, they DO, in fact, interfere with counter-regulatory secretion as glucogenic processes stimulate subsequent insulin release (all of which will ultimately inhibit lipolysis).


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author


  2. dr. h, what do you say to the notion that leucine is "toxic" when consumed in large amounts in proportion to valine and isoleucine.
    and that even though only leucine promotes protein synthesis,
    it depletes valine and isoleucine, and the lack of valine and isoleucine inhibits protein synthesis?

    i ask this because i'm currently supplementing with 10 grams BCAA's (ratio 2:1:1) pre and post workout, making good gains.
    but i'm wondering if i switch to supplementing with only leucine; would it help or hurt my progress?

    thanks!
    •   
       


  3. So you're saying taking bcaa supplements is counter-productive to fat loss while on a low carb diet?. I'm not sure if what you say "on paper" actually makes sense in real world situations. I had been taking a 2:1:1 bcaa supplement while working out since January and recently had to stop because I just don't have enough money to continue taking it. I've noticed a huge drop in endurance during my workouts, but no significant increase in fat loss(which is what you would expect if what you say is true about bcaa products stimulating insulin release).

  4. I don't know about "toxic" per se (perhaps someone could better assist that discussion if they are privy to ACTUAL studies suggesting that, not marketing tripe), BUT there is information to suggest that there is such thing as "too much" leucine in regards to what you'll actually get out of it (read: efficacy).

    I mean, leucine - in isolation of the other BCAAs - wasn't even part of the literature before about 2006 that I am aware of. In other words, BCAA studies were running rampant while leucine in isolation (without valine or isoleucine) just weren't being done. Now, we're using it as a therapeutic element in diabetics (in isolation without the others) and there aren't the side effects you speak of, especially toxicity of any nature.

    Let me ask about companies that use 8:1:1 or 10:1:1 or 12:1:1...if this were the case, you also would need to keep this ratio very proportionate. The rationale for marketing was that it is the "closest to that of actual muscle tissue, yadda, yadda."

    There really hasn't been a lot of adiposity data coming significantly positive in the HUMAN literature (rat studies are inherently different), but there is with adiponectin; which means change in overt visceral offering IS occuring.

    All of this data is in the acute setting...we have NO IDEA what long-term effects will be seen. There is a study that has been on-going since 2008 which is trying to evaluate the long-term effects, but outside of anectdote...it seems all we have is industry fodder.

    So, what the hell am I saying; I would be surprised if changing from BCAA to leucine supplementation does a lot, if anything, to your general body composition...what I do think is - if you upped the amount of leucine, you'd likely have better glycemic control (pertinent to body composition); you'll have better lipid parameters; you'll see similar changes from a muscle belly standpoint AND that's because there IS a ceiling to how much leucine you can use with success...accounting for about 25% of the average amino pool. Beyond that, I don't think you'll see much difference...literature doesn't support it anyway.

    You'd only have to figure out what 1/4 of your amino acid pool was in a day. Because the data is in the acute setting...peri-workout may very well be considered different, but again...25% so if 40 grams of protein is ingested say post-workout; you'd strive for a ceiling limit of 10 grams of leucine, beyond which is likely no benefit.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  5. Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    So you're saying taking bcaa supplements is counter-productive to fat loss while on a low carb diet?. I'm not sure if what you say "on paper" actually makes sense in real world situations. I had been taking a 2:1:1 bcaa supplement while working out since January and recently had to stop because I just don't have enough money to continue taking it. I've noticed a huge drop in endurance during my workouts, but no significant increase in fat loss(which is what you would expect if what you say is true about bcaa products stimulating insulin release).
    Dependent upon your total amount of BCAA and your total amino pool (which I have no idea based on the information you have provided, or lack thereof); IF you had enough BCAAs in your amino pool ON a ketogenic diet...you WILL breach the subgluconeogenic threshhold and this could promote fat gain for those metabolically INefficient.

    If you have done nothing in the body composition realm with BCAA since their initiation in January, I have said that they will likely do NOTHING in removal = and you have proved a point. You don't all of a sudden become an efficient or inefficient person metabolically speaking; this is genetically pre-determined.

    I anticipate you're a thin guy?


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
    •   
       


  6. While it may look good on paper, time and time again leucine supplementation alone has failed to deliver an anabolic effect (an increase in LBM) in humans where BCAAs and EAAs have. Just about every nutrient will stimulate an insulin release. Insulin alone doesn't hinder fat loss. If it did, the only way to get lean would be to never eat. Maintaining good insulin sensitivity in muscle while keeping insulin levels stable for the majority of your day should be your goal.
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  7. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Dependent upon your total amount of BCAA and your total amino pool (which I have no idea based on the information you have provided, or lack thereof); IF you had enough BCAAs in your amino pool ON a ketogenic diet...you WILL breach the subgluconeogenic threshhold and this could promote fat gain for those metabolically INefficient.

    If you have done nothing in the body composition realm with BCAA since their initiation in January, I have said that they will likely do NOTHING in removal = and you have proved a point. You don't all of a sudden become an efficient or inefficient person metabolically speaking; this is genetically pre-determined.

    I anticipate you're a thin guy?


    D_

    On the contrary...

  8. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Dependent upon your total amount of BCAA and your total amino pool (which I have no idea based on the information you have provided, or lack thereof); IF you had enough BCAAs in your amino pool ON a ketogenic diet...you WILL breach the subgluconeogenic threshhold and this could promote fat gain for those metabolically INefficient.

    If you have done nothing in the body composition realm with BCAA since their initiation in January, I have said that they will likely do NOTHING in removal = and you have proved a point. You don't all of a sudden become an efficient or inefficient person metabolically speaking; this is genetically pre-determined.

    I anticipate you're a thin guy?


    D_

    So in the bold section you are saying that particular conditions need to be met in order for BCAA supplement to cause fat gain?. Also when you refer to body composition what are you refering to?. Fat loss, muscle gain?. Since January I have lost quite a bit of fat and have gained much strength also. When I ceased taking the BCAA product I noticed a definite decline in the quality of my workouts, particularly reduced endurance. I run out of energy much quicker now than before. Still BCAA products are quite expensive and maybe I'll have the money in the future to use them again, maybe not, but I'm sure they make a difference especially in endurance and the kind of high volume long duration workouts I'm used to.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    So, what the hell am I saying; I would be surprised if changing from BCAA to leucine supplementation does a lot, if anything, to your general body composition...what I do think is - if you upped the amount of leucine, you'd likely have better glycemic control (pertinent to body composition); you'll have better lipid parameters; you'll see similar changes from a muscle belly standpoint AND that's because there IS a ceiling to how much leucine you can use with success...accounting for about 25% of the average amino pool. Beyond that, I don't think you'll see much difference...literature doesn't support it anyway.

    You'd only have to figure out what 1/4 of your amino acid pool was in a day. Because the data is in the acute setting...peri-workout may very well be considered different, but again...25% so if 40 grams of protein is ingested say post-workout; you'd strive for a ceiling limit of 10 grams of leucine, beyond which is likely no benefit.


    D_
    nice! gives me some food for thought... thanks for info!
  10. burn more fat with BCAA isoleucine?



  11. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    While it may look good on paper, time and time again leucine supplementation alone has failed to deliver an anabolic effect (an increase in LBM) in humans where BCAAs and EAAs have. Just about every nutrient will stimulate an insulin release. Insulin alone doesn't hinder fat loss. If it did, the only way to get lean would be to never eat. Maintaining good insulin sensitivity in muscle while keeping insulin levels stable for the majority of your day should be your goal.
    the study was done on rats but who never know

    Leucine Intake Reduces Diet-Induced Obesity and Improves Glucose and Cholesterol Metabolism in Mice.

    http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org...56/6/1647.long

  12. Quote Originally Posted by MAxximal View Post
    the study was done on rats but who never know

    Leucine Intake Reduces Diet-Induced Obesity and Improves Glucose and Cholesterol Metabolism in Mice.

    http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org...56/6/1647.long
    That's why I specifically said humans. Although sometimes we can extrapolate data from studies on mice history has proven the mouse model doesn't always translate to humans. Furthermore why even consider research on leucine with mice when we have research on leucine and amino supplementation done on humans?

    Again leucine supplementation alone does not result in LBM gain over control (PMID:21487148 & PMID:19321567)

    Where BCAA and even HMB does
    (PMID:21327797 PMID:8709918)
    PESCIENCE.COM

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  14. 2:1:1 & 4:1:1 seem to be the way to go. 2:1:1 has the most research so I'll stick to 2:1:1 around my workout and 4:1:1 between meals.


  15. When looking at data (if we are restricting this discussion to human trials); the approximation of 25% your amino acid pool holds true....

    Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2010 Oct;20(5):409-17.
    The influence of 8 weeks of whey-protein and leucine supplementation on physical and cognitive performance.
    Walker TB, Smith J, Herrera M, Lebegue B, Pinchak A, Fischer J.
    SourceAir Force Research Laboratory, Brooks Air Force Base, San Antonio, TX, USA.

    Abstract
    The purpose of this study was to investigate the ability of whey-protein and leucine supplementation to enhance physical and cognitive performance and body composition. Thirty moderately fit participants completed a modified Air Force fitness test, a computer-based cognition test, and a dual-energy X-ray-absorptiometry scan for body composition before and after supplementing their daily diet for 8 wk with either 19.7 g of whey protein and 6.2 g leucine (WPL) or a calorie-equivalent placebo (P). Bench-press performance increased significantly from Week 1 to Week 8 in the WPL group, whereas the increase in the P group was not significant. Push-up performance increased significantly for WPL, and P showed a nonsignificant increase. Total mass, fat-free mass, and lean body mass all increased significantly in the WPL group but showed no change in the P group. No differences were observed within or between groups for crunches, chin-ups, 3-mile-run time, or cognition. The authors conclude that supplementing with whey protein and leucine may provide an advantage to people whose performance benefits from increased upper body strength and/or lean body mass.

    PMID:20975109[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  16. Certain studies and meta-analyses dismissed looking into leucine over a decade ago and we never got the number of studies attributed to BCAA; but the facts couldn't be disguised...people in the industry just took authors' faulty conclusions...

    Sports Med. 1999 Jun;27(6):347-58.
    Leucine supplementation and intensive training.
    Mero A.
    SourceDepartment of Biology of Physical Activity, University of Jyväskylä, Finland. [email protected]

    Abstract
    Leucine, isoleucine and valine, the branched-chain amino acids (BCAA), make up about one-third of muscle protein. Of these, leucine has been the most thoroughly investigated because its oxidation rate is higher than that of isoleucine or valine. Leucine also stimulates protein synthesis in muscle and is closely associated with the release of gluconeogenic precursors, such as alanine, from muscle. Significant decreases in plasma or serum levels of leucine occur following aerobic (11 to 33%), anaerobic lactic (5 to 8%) and strength exercise (30%) sessions. In skeletal muscle, there is a decrease in leucine level and a reduction in glycogen stores during exhaustive aerobic exercise. Basal fasting serum leucine levels decrease by 20% during 5 weeks of speed and strength training in power-trained athletes on a daily protein intake of 1.26 g/kg bodyweight. The leucine content of protein is assumed to vary between 5 and 10%. There are suggestions that the current recommended dietary intake of leucine be increased from 14 mg/kg bodyweight/day to a minimum of 45 mg/kg bodyweight/day for sedentary individuals, and more for those participating in intensive training in order to optimise rates of whole body protein synthesis. Consumption of BCAA (30 to 35% leucine) before or during endurance exercise may prevent or decrease the net rate of protein degradation, may improve both mental and physical performance and may have a sparing effect on muscle glycogen degradation and depletion of muscle glycogen stores. However, leucine supplementation (200 mg/kg bodyweight) 50 minutes before anaerobic running exercise had no effect on performance. During 5 weeks of strength and speed training, leucine supplementation of 50 mg/kg bodyweight/day, supplementary to a daily protein intake of 1.26 g/kg bodyweight/day, appeared to prevent the decrease in the serum leucine levels in power-trained athletes. According to 1 study, dietary supplementation of the leucine metabolite beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) 3 g/day to humans undertaking intensive resistance training exercise resulted in an increased deposition of fat-free mass and an accompanying increase in strength. Muscle proteolysis was also decreased with HMB, accompanied by lower plasma levels of enzymes indicating muscle damage and an average 50% decrease in plasma essential amino acid levels. Furthermore, BCAA supplementation (76% leucine) in combination with moderate energy restriction has been shown to induce significant and preferential losses of visceral adipose tissue and to allow maintenance of a high level of performance. Caution must be paid when interpreting the limited number of studies in this area since, in many studies, leucine has been supplemented as part of a mixture of BCAA. Consequently, further research into the effects of leucine supplementation alone is needed.

    PMID:10418071[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  17. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2006 Aug;97(6):664-72. Epub 2005 Oct 29.
    Effects of dietary leucine supplementation on exercise performance.
    Crowe MJ, Weatherson JN, Bowden BF.
    SourceInstitute of Sport and Exercise Science, James Cook University, Townsville, QLD 4811, Australia. [email protected]

    Abstract
    Branched chain amino acids (BCAA), particularly leucine, have been suggested to be ergogenic for both endurance and strength/power performance. This study investigated the effects of dietary leucine supplementation on the exercise performance of outrigger canoeists. Thirteen (ten female, three male) competitive outrigger canoeists [aged 31.6 (2.2) year, VO(2max) 47.1 (2.0) ml kg(-1) min(-1)] underwent testing before and after 6-week supplementation with either capsulated L: -leucine (45 mg kg(-1) d(-1); n = 6) or placebo (cornflour; n = 7). Testing included anthropometry, 10 s upper body power and work and a row to exhaustion at 70-75% maximal aerobic power where perceived exertion (RPE), heart rate (HR) and plasma BCAA and tryptophan concentrations were assessed. Leucine supplementation resulted in significant increases in plasma leucine and total BCAA concentrations. Upper body power and work significantly increased in both groups after supplementation but power was significantly greater after leucine supplementation compared to the placebo [6.7 (0.7) v. 6.0 (0.7) W kg(-1)]. Rowing time significantly increased [77.6 (6.3)-88.3 (7.3) min] and average RPE significantly decreased [14.5 (1.5)-12.9 (1.4)] with leucine supplementation while these variables were unchanged with the placebo. Leucine supplementation had no effect on the plasma tryptophan to BCAA ratio, HR or anthropometric variables. Six weeks' dietary leucine supplementation significantly improved endurance performance and upper body power in outrigger canoeists without significant change in the plasma ratio of tryptophan to BCAA.

    PMID:16265600[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  18. Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2011 Apr;36(2):242-53.
    Leucine-protein supplemented recovery feeding enhances subsequent cycling performance in well-trained men.
    Thomson JS, Ali A, Rowlands DS.
    SourceSchool of Sport and Exercise, and The Institute of Food, Nutrition, and Human Health, Massey University, Wellington, New Zealand.

    Abstract
    The purpose of this study was to determine whether a practical leucine-protein, high-carbohydrate postexercise feeding regimen could improve recovery, as measured by subsequent cycling performance and mechanistic markers, relative to control feeding. In a crossover, 10 male cyclists performed 2- to 2.5-h interval training bouts on 3 consecutive evenings, ingesting either leucine-protein, high-carbohydrate nutrition (0.1/0.4/1.2/0.2 g·kg(-1)·h(-1); leucine, protein, carbohydrate, fat, respectively) or isocaloric control (0.06/1.6/0.2 g·kg(-1)·h(-1); protein, carbohydrate, fat, respectively) nutrition for 1.5 h postexercise. Throughout the experimental period diet was controlled, energy and macronutrient intake balanced, and protein intake clamped at 1.6 g·kg(-1)·day(-1). The alternate supplement was provided the next morning, thereby isolating the postexercise nutrition effect. Following 39 h of recovery, cyclists performed a repeat-sprint performance test. Postexercise leucine-protein ingestion improved mean sprint power by 2.5% (99% confidence limit, ±2.6%; p = 0.013) and reduced perceived overall tiredness during the sprints by 13% (90% confidence limit, ±9.2%), but perceptions of leg tiredness and soreness were unaffected. Before exercise, creatine-kinase concentration was lowered by 19% (90% confidence limits, ±18%), but lactate dehydrogenase and pressure-pain threshold were unaltered. There was a small reduction in anger (25% ± 18%), but other moods were unchanged. Plasma leucine (3-fold) and essential amino acid (47%) concentrations were elevated postexercise. Net nitrogen balance trended mildly negative in both conditions (mean ± SD: leucine-protein, -20 ± 46 mg·kg(-1) per 24 h; control, -25 ± 36 mg·kg(-1) per 24 h). The ingestion of a leucine-protein supplement along with other high-carbohydrate food following intense training on consecutive days enhances subsequent high-intensity endurance performance and may attenuate muscle membrane disruption in well-trained male cyclists.

    PMID:21609286[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  19. Just like HMB and metabolites, it may be more pronounced in novice trainees; but that doesn't mean higher doses - still constituting 25% of the amino acid pool + keeping in mind volume of distribution (most stuides do not and wrongly suggest that x grams is inconsequential when it may be ok for the novice athlete, but total grams of protein - keeping in mind 25% of amino pool with now heightened nitrogen balance requirements) be taken into effect.

    nt J Sports Physiol Perform. 2011 Mar;6(1):38-50.
    Daily L-leucine supplementation in novice trainees during a 12-week weight training program.
    Ispoglou T, King RF, Polman RC, Zanker C.
    SourceCarnegie Faculty of Sport and Education, Leeds Metropolitan University, Leeds, UK.

    Abstract
    PURPOSE: To investigate the effects of daily oral L-leucine ingestion on strength, bone mineral-free lean tissue mass (LTM) and fat mass (FM) of free living humans during a 12-wk resistance-training program.

    METHODS: Twenty-six initially untrained men (n = 13 per group) ingested either 4 g/d of L-leucine (leucine group: age 28.5 ± 8.2 y, body mass index 24.9 ± 4.2 kg/m2) or a corresponding amount of lactose (placebo group: age 28.2 ± 7.3 y, body mass index 24.9 ± 4.2 kg/m2). All participants trained under supervision twice per week following a prescribed resistance training program using eight standard exercise machines. Testing took place at baseline and at the end of the supplementation period. Strength on each exercise was assessed by five repetition maximum (5-RM), and body composition was assessed by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DXA).

    RESULTS: The leucine group demonstrated significantly higher gains in total 5-RM strength (sum of 5-RM in eight exercises) and 5-RM strength in five out of the eight exercises (P < .05). The percentage total 5-RM strength gains were 40.8% (± 7.8) and 31.0% (± 4.6) for the leucine and placebo groups respectively. Significant differences did not exist between groups in either total percentage LTM gains or total percentage FM losses (LTM: 2.9% ± 2.5 vs 2.0% ± 2.1, FM: 1.6% ± 15.6 vs 1.1% ± 7.6).

    CONCLUSION: These results suggest that 4 g/d of L-leucine supplementation may be used as a nutritional supplement to enhance strength performance during a 12-week resistance training program of initially untrained male participants.

    PMID:21487148[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  20. We could get into a study war I suppose, but the fact remains clear...it is very much so leucine (at 25% the total amino pool with positive nitrogen balance) that will impact body composition and performance parameters...we're just now being "allowed" to look more into it. There are some companies that already have abandoned BCAAs in lieu of higher leucine concentrations alone. I would be hard press to find the magic ratio purported in supplement ads; its just all that had been studied (and that's usually the argument for many things I suppose).


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  21. Really interesting reading in this thread. Thanks for sharing. Can you explain more on why a 2:1:1 ratio is beneficial as opposed to an equal amount of all three BCAA's? Does it simply come down to the fact that this is the ratio found in skeletal muscle? If so, does that NECESSARILY mean that supplementing in this ratio is key?

    Also, forgive my ignorance.....but WHO are you? I see your avatar says "Rochester, NY"....my home town. Do you have an office out of this area?
    Sean Campbell
    Pro Natural Bodybuilder
    NRC Sponsored Athlete - Cabergolean.com

  22. These studies are very interesting. I was wondering what anyone thought about completely dropping all other sources of protein and just taking Luecine/BCAAs/ ergogenic aminos throughout the day and just eating fruits, starches, and fats? Or even just mainly fruits and pure forms of fats to "control" your amino acid pool?
    RecoverBro ELITE

  23. Quote Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    Really interesting reading in this thread. Thanks for sharing. Can you explain more on why a 2:1:1 ratio is beneficial as opposed to an equal amount of all three BCAA's? Does it simply come down to the fact that this is the ratio found in skeletal muscle? If so, does that NECESSARILY mean that supplementing in this ratio is key?
    Well..."close enough" in the world of supplements (it's actually 1.8:1.2:1), but it seems to have stemmed from that. The first researched value was that which approximated skeletal muscle's ratio. Of course, we also know you won't "spontaneously combust" either with additional ingestion of say leucine, as some might have you believe. To me - absolutely not (as far as ratios are concerned); leucine should approximate about 25% of YOUR amino acid pool (which is the directed number that will lead to a positive nitrogen retention; this number is NOT static and the amount of total protein AND leucine will increase accordingly).


    Also, forgive my ignorance.....but WHO are you? I see your avatar says "Rochester, NY"....my home town. Do you have an office out of this area?
    "Who am I" is best found in another thread in this subforum. "Rochester, NY" is my home town and I do have an ancillary office there, albeit not one I practice medicine out of; that is about 6-6.5 hours away in Columbus, OH...My location has just not been updated since I joined the forum. Any questions about in-house services are probably best directed by PM.


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author

  24. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    These studies are very interesting. I was wondering what anyone thought about completely dropping all other sources of protein and just taking Luecine/BCAAs/ ergogenic aminos throughout the day and just eating fruits, starches, and fats? Or even just mainly fruits and pure forms of fats to "control" your amino acid pool?
    The only issue I might have with complete free-form amino ingestion is the loss of peptide bonds which does aid protein assimilation.

    Other than that, I will state my view again: 25% of your amino acid pool should be leucine; your amino acid pool should be the number required to achieve a positive nitrogen balance (this number should be constantly changing requiring more of both leucine as well as total aminos)


    D_
    Anabolicminds.com Featured Author
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