Epistane: Specific Questions

[luclyluciano]

New to this board & loving it.
I'm 45 yrs old, never done AS and been lifting 10yrs.
Good build & get lots of stares at the gym etc.
Heard great things about Epistane & ready to give it a go.
Here Goes the Questions;

a) Dutchman posted that he uses it as a transdermal but I see it sold in capsules...which is whic? Confused????
b)I'm interested in pulsing it and very confused with all the recommend for PCT. Can I keep it to 1 product only and keep it simple. What should it be??
c) is this gonna be hard on my liver and what exactly does this mean & how will I know if I have a problem>
d) I"m from Toronto Canada, was considering ordering from Nutriplanet via Fed Ex to my office...50 people there.
Does Nutriplanet have the best PCT so I can order from the same source? Is shipping to my office OK.
e) Duthcman seemed to recommend the Epi together with Formastene....Not sure what it does and is it a good idea or should I just stick to the Epi

All I can think of for now-Support greatly appreciated

Luckyluciano

 

[brandon615]

Wow lots of questions. Umm he probably makes his own transdermal out of it.
Its your first aas so IMO i think you would be alright to run it as a solo.
People on these boards suggest running a serm as your main supp of pct. I wish i had a link to neo's post about epistane it has tons of information. Use the search feature on this website and look up epistane you should find his post there.

Edit: My guess would be he removes the powder and mixes it with his formula for makin a transdermal. I honestly have no idea tho.

 

[brandon615]

O and yes its methylated so it will be hard on your liver.
nutraplanet carries post cycle support by AI. Very effective pct option, but its not a Rx serm (which is what ppl suggest you get).

 

[heebs10]

a) never heard of anyone using epi in a transdermal, perhaps he has some bulk epi stright from the supplier and puts it in a TD carrier. epi, havoc, and all the clones come in caps and taken orally.
b) Post Cycle Support by Anabolic Innovations was designed to by used after epi cycles and seems to be one of the single best over the counter pct products out there.(support/liver supps should still be used)
c) epi is methylated and is hepatoxic (toxic to the liver) to some degree. pulsing cycles help to cut down the overall toxicity. your liver metabolizes these compounds and is put under additional stress similar to how alcohol puts additional stress on the liver. elevated liver enzymes and lipid profiles are pretty common but the pulse method helps to minimize this. blood tests before and after the cycle is the only way know how much damage was done. Cycle Support (also made by anabolic Innovations) should be taken on off days during your cycle and into your PCT, this also helps minimize liver damage even further.
d) if you decide to or Post Cycle Support for your pct, it is sold at NP as well. should not have problems shipping it to your office as the product is legal unless your office has rules against that kind of thing.
e) for your first cycle, keep it simple, dont add the formastain this time around. (formastain is a transdermal and might be where the epi/transdermal confusion came from)

keep researching before starting,
good luck dude

 

[luclyluciano]

is 1 or 2 cycles really that bad for the liver? is using a transdermal totally bypassing the liver??

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

a). transdermal delivery is unnecessary since this particular oral is methylated.. Making a transderm out of this would be a waste of time, and money.
b). If you pulse it, or if you don't, you could use sustain alpha or post cycle support, along with a good test booster for pct.. This should work fine, and all of these are available at nutraplanet.
c). It will tax the liver to some degree, but it's nothing to worry about. Epi is one of the mildest methyl's when it comes to hepatoxicity.
d). shipping to an office is fine, pct was answered above.
e). epi with formestane is an awful idea, unless you want your joints to creak and hurt like crazy.. I recommend DHEA along with epi.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

is 1 or 2 cycles really that bad for the liver? is using a transdermal totally bypassing the liver??

No, and no.

 

[luclyluciano]

i once read on coast-coast bodybuilding that your 1st cycle was the most important for gains & should be the most important because after the 1st cycle there were deminishing relults....is this true?? Are future cycles of Epistan going to show any further gains??

 

[brandon615]

After repeated usage of AAS people say that your androgen receptors become use to the substance therefore you wont see as good of results. Thats why ppl cycle and take off and cycle something different then later they might come back to the original AAS used.

 

[heebs10]

i once read on coast-coast bodybuilding that your 1st cycle was the most important for gains & should be the most important because after the 1st cycle there were deminishing relults....is this true?? Are future cycles of Epistan going to show any further gains??

cycle after cycle you will still make gains. but the more cycles you have under your belt, the more your going to burn your androgen receptors. for example, if you cycle 30mg of epi for a month straight, and you do that exact cycle every third or forth month, you wont get the same gains you got from your first cycle when your on your sixth cycle.

 

[luclyluciano]

thanks for all the responses...this board is the best!

Nutraplanet sells IBE's version of Epistane! Is IBE the best way for me to go? Nutraplanet says out of stock!!!

How many bottlles of 90 caps would I need for my 1st cycle and should I do the pulse for my 1st cycle??

Keeping it all very simple, what else should I order for support, PCT and hair loss prevention. For me...less is more, I'd like to keep this as simple as possible as I am very busy with my business, life, kids etc!

Thanx in adance...you guys are great!!!:cheers:

 

[brandon615]

one 90 cap bottle will be more than enough. somethin like 20/30/30/40 or 20/30/40/40. I would just run a straight four week cycle. Umm your pct depends on whether or not your goin the Rx route or non-Rx route. As far as support supplemets go i would go with cycle support by anabolic innovations, its got everything you need.

 

[heebs10]

running your cycle at 20/30/30/40 would come out to exactly 90 caps, but 20/30/40/40 obviously comes out to 100 caps. for your first cycle though 20/30/30/40 would be just fine, so just get one bottle. epistane and havoc are the two most popular but epidrol is probably third most popular, either one of the three is a good choice IMO (all three are exactly the same compound, mg per cap, and #of caps).

 

[brandon615]

lol damn i miscalculated....:think:

 

[luclyluciano]

what must I do so I do not lose my gains?

what is the Rx-route VS the non Rx-route???

 

[brandon615]

Most Importantly!

No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT

SERM + P.C.T Guide

Now please, anyone is free to discuss this and tell me I've totally got it wrong or need to add something. Now with that said:

Bloodwork! I cannot / we cannot say this enough that it is highly recommended to get bloodwork so you know how to run your PCT and WHAT you need to run on your PCT.

1. SERM - Torem, Ralox, Nolvadex etc

Example Torem Dosing: - As per Interlocutor
Day 1-5 = 120mg Torm
Day 6-21 = 60mg Torm
Day 22-28 = 30mg Torm

Alternative Torm Dosing:
Week1: Days 1-3: 120mg Torm, Days 4-7: 90 mg Torm
Week2: 60mg Torm
Week3: 60mg Torm
Week4: 30mg Torm

You should monitor this carefully and will most likely bounce back rather quickly with this SERM as per reports given by experienced users on the board.


Example Nolva Dosing:
Wk1: 40,40,40,20,20,20,20
Wk2: 20mg everyday
Wk3: 10mg everyday
Wk4: 10mg everyday

I am not sure why anyone would go above these dosages, as per Dinoii, as the large body of studies / material backs up dosages no more than 40mg and mainly focuses on 20mg / 10mg dosage schemes. More is not better

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - Good reviews or I have used: Sustain Alpha(Recommended), Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

NON-Rx SERM + P.C.T Guide

1. Non Rx SERM - Post Cycle Support(Recommended), Sustain Alpha(Recommended)

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.

3. AI - Formestane(Recommended), Sustain Alpha(Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - Good reviews or have used the following: Sustain Alpha(Recommended), Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

All of the products and protocols above are open to discussion. This is not a hard and fast list but a guide to help.

With that said Epistane style products on a non extreme usage style cycle are going to use a less extreme PCT. Better not to have huge hormonal swinging in either direction. Calm, steady and relative therapy is recommended.

Things To Note

1. You will most likely want to run your AI (Formestane) for a month or so after finishing your PCT therapy to make sure you experience no estrogen rebound / flooding. If you run your PCT for four weeks, as you ramp down on your SERM etc ramp up on your Formestane / AI so, to as keep your estrogen under control. There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!

2. Once done your PCT, and AI time ramp it down slowly until about one month after PCT


3. Know what gyno is and the symptoms of gyno: @@@ Gyno Questions - Please Read This First @@@ - Bodybuilding.com Forums

4. Real Gynomastia Before & After's:


5. Love your Liver!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well it didnt work but this is neo's post. He has a lot of good info on epistane and if you find one of his post a bunch of info is in his sig...

 

[Dutchman]

New to this board & loving it.
I'm 45 yrs old, never done AS and been lifting 10yrs.
Good build & get lots of stares at the gym etc.
Heard great things about Epistane & ready to give it a go.
Here Goes the Questions;

a) Dutchman posted that he uses it as a transdermal but I see it sold in capsules...which is whic? Confused????
b)I'm interested in pulsing it and very confused with all the recommend for PCT. Can I keep it to 1 product only and keep it simple. What should it be??
c) is this gonna be hard on my liver and what exactly does this mean & how will I know if I have a problem>
d) I"m from Toronto Canada, was considering ordering from Nutriplanet via Fed Ex to my office...50 people there.
Does Nutriplanet have the best PCT so I can order from the same source? Is shipping to my office OK.
e) Duthcman seemed to recommend the Epi together with Formastene....Not sure what it does and is it a good idea or should I just stick to the Epi

All I can think of for now-Support greatly appreciated

Luckyluciano

Hey LL, I have NEVER taken Epistane transdermally. I don't think it is available as a powder. Either I had some bad verbal usage or you misread me.

I actually used my Epi in a Pulse but my Form in an everyday application through the cycle and also through the PCT. I still always use Nolva but I am not really sure that with a Pulse cycle that I need it. I have had no bad side effects from the way I do things and I have had real good strength retention. In fact, I think I wrote this elsewhere, I actually continued to gain strength for a good two weeks after ending my cycle. It was an aftereffect very much like the SD echo effect.

 

[luclyluciano]

what are the most important things I need to do to maintain my gains.

 

[brandon615]

so many opinions on how to keep gains.
goes from serm only in pct
to serm, ai, cort blocker, creatine,test booster and the usual protein. And DIET!!!!

 

[silverSurfer]

what are the most important things I need to do to maintain my gains.

You will need to adjust your diet. If your desire is to gain mass then you'll have to eat more, and vice versa.

 

[luclyluciano]

You will need to adjust your diet. If your desire is to gain mass then you'll have to eat more, and vice versa.

Thanx...but what I meant to say is what MUST I do to maintain my gains AFTER I have finished my cycles.
I have heard many say they lost it all after their cycle and I would assume this would be a total waste of time and money, would it not??

So what steps are important so that the extras 5-15 lbs of MUSCLE will stay with me after I have finished my cycle.

Also...I went to Nutraplanet ready to order & saw that both Epistane & Havoc are sold out...gonna call them next week but was wondering if this is normal or just marketing hype?:bb2:

 

[brandon615]

so many opinions on how to keep gains.
goes from serm only in pct
to serm, ai, cort blocker, creatine,test booster and the usual protein. And DIET!!!!

Research each of these things and decide for yourself if the cost/benefit ratio is worth it.
I will run an epistane cycle this summer with this for my pct.
Post cycle support, creatine mono, my usual protein,same diet, and 6 oxo tapered down after my serm.
I will have nolva on hand just in case.

 

[Druss]

Post cycle support, creatine mono, my usual protein,same diet, and 6 oxo tapered down after my serm.
I will have nolva on hand just in case.

Thats nearly the same pct as mine just ill be adding retain2

 

[brandon615]

Thats nearly the same pct as mine just ill be adding retain2

Sounds solid man

 

[luclyluciano]

Since Epistane was sold out I ordered E-max by juggernaut, a clone. Now my forth day on & already I have noticed increases in strength, sense of well being, a slight increase in muscularity, definition & size.
My question is in layman's terms, what exactly is happening inside my body while I am pulsing this steroid. What is going on inside my muscles, my blood stream etc. which is causing the increase in muscle mass and the loss of fat...how is this happening??

 

[brandon615]

Since Epistane was sold out I ordered E-max by juggernaut, a clone. Now my forth day on & already I have noticed increases in strength, sense of well being, a slight increase in muscularity, definition & size.
My question is in layman's terms, what exactly is happening inside my body while I am pulsing this steroid. What is going on inside my muscles, my blood stream etc. which is causing the increase in muscle mass and the loss of fat...how is this happening??

Im not exactly sure how the epithio compounds work but they do cut back on estrogen which with that alone can make your body anabolic. You will have to pull some more ppl in to answer this question.

 

[SIDUDE]

Mid Cycle

I have been on Epistaine now for 6 weeks, prepping to go post cycle, is HGC recommended for post cycle or is it to drastic?

 

[brandon615]

I have been on Epistaine now for 6 weeks, prepping to go post cycle, is HGC recommended for post cycle or is it to drastic?

Have your balls shrunk a lot?

 

[SIDUDE]

Hold on let me check......not to bad, but a little

Have your balls shrunk a lot?

 

[brandon615]

Then i personally would save it for another cycle

 

[luclyluciano]

Spread out the Dose or all at once Preworkout?

when pulsing Every other day what's best to dose all at once preworkout or spreading the dose thruout the day, and what is the logic behin your answer?

I"m in the middle of a pulsed cycle & am trying both ways but I am not sure which is best yet.

ose:

 

[jpk]

Hi Luc,

sounds like you're having fun on this cycle. You're asking about scientific stuff which is woefully absent in this whole oral steroid market. But you're also curious about logic so there should be no shortage of opinions flowing in. Here's tw things that guided my on my Epi pulse:

1. The half life of the compound is fairly long. I'd like to remember seeing up to 6 to 8 hours depending on individual metabolism. So I'd just spread it out even on Epi days. This stuff never jacked my sleep so I would even take my last one near bedtime. There's some logic to taking it earlier because natural test is produced at a higher rate at night and you don't want to suppress natural production. I never felt shut down so I didn't care about taking the last one early.

2. Anabolic steroids make you heal and grow muscle faster. So I didn't care if I took them on a gym day or the day after. In other words, I don't think that there's an significant, immediate strength benefit to taking a steroid, the strength comes from the healing phase. I felt my gains were better taking my Epi on the day after a big workout.

This isn't science however, just 2 cents worth of logic and an anecdotal report. A lot of guys swear by taking double doses right before they go to the gym.

 

[luclyluciano]

Hi Luc,

sounds like you're having fun on this cycle. You're asking about scientific stuff which is woefully absent in this whole oral steroid market. But you're also curious about logic so there should be no shortage of opinions flowing in. Here's tw things that guided my on my Epi pulse:

1. The half life of the compound is fairly long. I'd like to remember seeing up to 6 to 8 hours depending on individual metabolism. So I'd just spread it out even on Epi days. This stuff never jacked my sleep so I would even take my last one near bedtime. There's some logic to taking it earlier because natural test is produced at a higher rate at night and you don't want to suppress natural production. I never felt shut down so I didn't care about taking the last one early.

2. Anabolic steroids make you heal and grow muscle faster. So I didn't care if I took them on a gym day or the day after. In other words, I don't think that there's an significant, immediate strength benefit to taking a steroid, the strength comes from the healing phase. I felt my gains were better taking my Epi on the day after a big workout.

This isn't science however, just 2 cents worth of logic and an anecdotal report. A lot of guys swear by taking double doses right before they go to the gym.

Hey JPK: Great info, thanx alot!

Question! I think I know what you mean by half life! Does a larger dose make you heal & grow much faster or better...meaning if I took 30 mgs all at once then I would have the full 30 mgs in my system, working for fully for up to 8 hrs...then spreading out would mean an overlap at some point & with a ramping up & a ramping down. Someone here suggested spreading out is better we stay anabolic longer. Seems to make sense unless of course a larger multiple dose achieves better results in growth healing.

Lucky

 

[jpk]

Hey JPK: Great info, thanx alot!

Question! I think I know what you mean by half life! Does a larger dose make you heal & grow much faster or better...meaning if I took 30 mgs all at once then I would have the full 30 mgs in my system, working for fully for up to 8 hrs...then spreading out would mean an overlap at some point & with a ramping up & a ramping down. Someone here suggested spreading out is better we stay anabolic longer. Seems to make sense unless of course a larger multiple dose achieves better results in growth healing.

Lucky

These orals have a maximum effect that levels off sharply. So if you're getting a good solid anabolic effect at say 40mg per day, then you're not going to get 20% better effect by going up to 50 mg. You may not get any effect if you're maxed out already. Unfortunately, these doses vary a lot by individual. There seems to be a rough correlation to body weight though.

As far as lump dosing, there's very few pharmacologic agents that are best dosed in bulk rather than spread out evenly. Especially when the compound has a relatively short half life that is expressed in hours, not days. Yet, there was a recent thread that talked about how Arnold and friends would bulk dose their Dianabol in the morning. I don't remember if it was mostly to reduce sides or enhance anabolism or both. You can never forget that most of these orals get activated in the liver, which is a mildly toxic process. I'd rather let my liver deal with a little dose of toxin rather than a larger dose.

Epistane is so mild and forgiving that it encourages the educated user to experiment with different dosing schemes. Yet, already there is a large body of anecdotal evidence that supports the kind of cycles, including PCT, that appear regularly on these forums. Just don't ignore diet and sleep while on cycle. The best researched cycles will fall short of expectations if you can't give the body the tools it needs to heal up.

 

[arizonanewbie]

Lucky, how about giving some numbers on your progress?

 

[luclyluciano]

Check Out My Log!

Lucky, how about giving some numbers on your progress?

Hey Arizona...no problem!

I'm on week 5 of an EOD pulse which I tapered up to 40 mgs...I find this a nice sweet spot...30 mgs is good too.

I'm 45 yrs old but everyone tells me I look 10 yrs younger! I have pretty good structure and am pretty lean everywhere except my midsection which had gained some fat in the last year even though I eat pretty clean..I assume it's my age.

Anyhow I've only gained about 4 lbs however the mirror says otherwise. Definitely gained in size. Going thru a re-comp even though was not my intention.

I'm 6 ft and weigh 195 morning weight. My arms shoulders chest & legs are bigger, more muscular and vascular.
I know I've traded fat for muscle and am much leaner!
All my lifts are up by 20 %...today I did chest with 100 lb dumbell AT THE END OF MY WORKOUT...on my 20th set!
No spotter. LOVE working out on this stuff.
CHECK OUT MY LOG!

 

[Kenneth3x]

I plan on starting a prohormone cycle soon also and was wondering if there would be any significant changes in the reccomended routines found here given the fact that I am already low in testosterone and high in estradiol? Should I take an AI during the cycle?

 

[Kenneth3x]

Keep in mind I am 40 years old, a newbie and would pulse a low dose 3 days a week for 4 weeks. There are so many different routines on here it is hard to say what would be best for me for my first cycle.

Also, Luciano..... Didn't I see in another thread that you were taking E-max the epi clone? I was wondering how people faired with these products?

 

[luclyluciano]

Keep in mind I am 40 years old, a newbie and would pulse a low dose 3 days a week for 4 weeks. There are so many different routines on here it is hard to say what would be best for me for my first cycle.

Also, Luciano..... Didn't I see in another thread that you were taking E-max the epi clone? I was wondering how people faired with these products?

This was my 1st cycle also. E-max is excellent...highly recommended by the owner of Nutraplanet...Juggernaut makes great clones. I am also pulsing 3 days a week, on a pulse you'll be best to ramp up to 30-40 mgs EOD.

Not sure about your low Test rating. I think E-max converts to Test and lowers Estrogen. I don't see how this could be bad for you but keep researching. Many others on here with tremendous knowledge. To make a diffference you'll need to have your diet & workouts in top form! Otherwise all you'll get are great pumps...You'll love working out on the stuff.

 

[shlong]

Epi is 1 of 2 so called prohormones that is anything but.

New to this board & loving it.
I'm 45 yrs old, never done AS and been lifting 10yrs.
Good build & get lots of stares at the gym etc.
Heard great things about Epistane & ready to give it a go.
Here Goes the Questions;

a) Dutchman posted that he uses it as a transdermal but I see it sold in capsules...which is whic? Confused????
b)I'm interested in pulsing it and very confused with all the recommend for PCT. Can I keep it to 1 product only and keep it simple. What should it be??
c) is this gonna be hard on my liver and what exactly does this mean & how will I know if I have a problem>
d) I"m from Toronto Canada, was considering ordering from Nutriplanet via Fed Ex to my office...50 people there.
Does Nutriplanet have the best PCT so I can order from the same source? Is shipping to my office OK.
e) Duthcman seemed to recommend the Epi together with Formastene....Not sure what it does and is it a good idea or should I just stick to the Epi

All I can think of for now-Support greatly appreciated

Luckyluciano

Epi as 2a-3a -epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol is
a designer .......with an overall anabolic of 1100 and a respectable 91 androgenic nice ratio .A brilliant design..
using a 2a-3a epithio in place of a 3 keto group standard on most roids,This protects the steriod from being reduced to a lesser
steroid metabolite.Id buy as much as you can till the inevitable
Stick with this one it's a derivative of DHT 20-30mg ED, lean dry results 2x that of ANAVAR

 

[mack 7]

Have run three cycles of epi with the only side effect being balls have gotten smaller. first cycle got great results not as good with second and third. post cycle with nolva. scheduled blood work after show in july. will post as soon as i get results.

 

[luclyluciano]

Have run three cycles of epi with the only side effect being balls have gotten smaller. first cycle got great results not as good with second and third. post cycle with nolva. scheduled blood work after show in july. will post as soon as i get results.

Why do you feel you did not get the results your 2nd & 3rd time round. I'm looking to do my next cyle & have been told I would continue experiencing gains. Now you have me worried.

 

[Jsturdi0]

A is epistine and xtreme tren good to cycle together

 

[Perfection300]

If you are 40+ years of age, It would be wise not to cycle to many orals considering the health issues they can cause that will be harder to reverse at your age.

Injections will be much more beneficial in terms of health and gains for you.

 

[Dutchman]

Why do you feel you did not get the results your 2nd & 3rd time round. I'm looking to do my next cyle & have been told I would continue experiencing gains. Now you have me worried.

Luclyluciano, Somehow you ended up misinformed. I never tried Epi as a transdermal. I have used it repeatedly with Form which is a transdermal. At the moment with no Form available I am only using Progesterone (transdermal) in my current Epi cycle. That said, this is my fourth or fifth cycle with it and this time is as good as the first. That might be because of the long time between cycles. This being my only cycle this year. I have spent the year rehabbing my RC and now in this cycle I once again reached and then exceeded my old BP PRs by 20 lbs, a lot for me. I felt every bit as agressive in the gym as back on my first cycle.

 

[brahmabull]

There is no need to convert a oral steroid into a transdermal steroid. It's METHYLATED so almost 100% of the agent will be absorbed and used by the body. Making it transdermal could actually decrease bioavailability due to the fillers that get binded with the transdermal agent. It can almost become to "thick and pasty" not allowing it properly absorb through the poors of the skin.

Any oral steroid will be hard on the liver. In the beginning, 19 nor (tren clone) wasn't considered a steroid that was hard on the liver but, many people realized it was no different than superdrol or any of the other steroids on the market now.

PCT consists of a large number of different types of both drug and herbal agents. In fact, most people spend more money on PCT vs. the actual cycle itself. You can anything from SERMS to AI's to test boosters to other agents to either help raise or free up bound testosterone. I would recommend (seeing that your 45 years old) using an AI/test booster. GNC sells an AI called arimatest and if you look it up on the net people will either love it or hate it. But, most people who are over the age of 30 have excellent results from it. If your under 30 years of age, don't bother and go for the hard stuff like tamoxifin, nolvadex, or HCG or even Clomid.