Anabolics tailor made for older lifters?

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    Anabolics tailor made for older lifters?


    Chime in if you have any insight into this issue. It seems by logic that prohormones are actually safer for older lifters with regards to gyno issues.We're already shut down partially just because of andropause. This would seem to protect us from the crazy estrogen rebound that leads to gyno. Younger guys would have a much stronger rebound because their system is simply putting out more juice.

    Of course there's related issues of liver health, hair loss etc. but I'm just thinking in terms of gyno. Any thoughts or insight would be appreciated.

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    I am thinking about a cycle on Trenadrol, with a PCT of:
    120mg toremifene days 1-7 0mg ATD
    90mg T days 8-14 0mg ATD
    60mg T days 15-21 25mg ATD
    30mg T days 22-28 50mg ATD
    weeks 5-6 50mg ATD.

    to counter any gyno issues myself. however if I could minimize the risk by using a Pro-Hormone instead, and get decent results I would give it a go. Would also love to hear an opinion on this. At my age I am looking for some good options, especially with running lower test etc. because of my age. That is why I just ran the other post in this section. There has to be some folks that are mid forties to mid fifties that have done this before that have some answers.
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    What do you consider older lifters?
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    Older Lifters


    Yeah Thanks,

    I acheived that mighty anabolic gut by using Bloatadrol Xtreme with ice cream for PCT.

    Older lifters for me would be any guy who has felt the first wave of andropause hit the shore. I got Tsunamied 2 years ago at the tender age of 45. Working out harder didn't render the kind of results it used to.

    There's a stud player on these boards by the name of Dutchman. You should check out his posts. He's an animal in the gym with low natural test. I think he has made wise use of these newer anabolic compounds. Of course it would be awesome if he dropped in here to line out a few of us old fart newbies!:bb:
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    Test E would be my choice.. First off you are not trashing your liver, and secondly it can be taken for prolonged periods with minimal side effects honestly.. I remember reading an article in the old Muscle Media, before they went all commercial and anti steriods.. They quoted a study ( New England Medical Journal ) of men who were given 12 weeks ( typical steriod length cycle) of 600 mgs of test e or c.. Does not matter if it was enth or cyp...
    All blood work was done before and after.. and in short the study concluded it found no major changes for the most part with that regimen.. except for lean mass gains, bodyfat loss etc..

    For anyone aging there are docters who will do you right and restore your hormone levels, but you will have to search perhaps to find the right ones.. everything has a price...

    if you just want to use pro hormones/ pro steriods because of how easily they are obtained, that is also your choice, but it is going to be harsher on your liver, cholestrol, triglycerides and probably the way you feel vs using an injectable test.. perhaps some formestane to combat estrogen issue's..

    you have a ton of options.. I was just giving another opinion.
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    I've been lifting more than 5 decades and using various supps more than 3 and now finally I found the best thing ever made. Best from the standpoint of safety and effectiveness. Both of these qualities being especially important to we aging lifters. The combo I believe in and have already used three times in the last year is Epistane (an extremely mild steroid that is practically untraceable) and Formastane a transdermal that is a great suicide inhibitor for Estrogen. The Epi has Estro controlling properties (it has been around forever for use in breast cancer treatment) and simply cranks up my Test and my Libido. Even though it is sooo mild I further up my safety factor by Pulsing it. This is a system wherein I just use it 3 or 4 times a week and never on the off days. I started at 20 mgs ED, taken just before my workout and went to 30 by week 3 and 40 by week 6. Again all taken about an hour beforehand. I have done up to 10 weeks total and once tried 50 mgs at the end but noticed no improvement so around 40 mgs is my personal "sweetpoint". While nowhere near as strong as Superdrol and other things it really works well. Some guys have used it just for Gyno reduction by taking it say 30 mgs ED @ 1mg X 8 hrs. You have to read up on it. The Form is fantastic for us old guys. We produce way to much Estro by our 50s, ie more than our wives, and it is now known to be the cause of our prostate cancer problems. Cutting down Estro with an Aromatase Inhibitor like Form cuts down your Estro, inversely ups your Test and protects your prostate. Not a bad combo. I use the Form with some Penetrate from NP mix and apply twice a day, morning and night. I like about three squirts and apply it to my chest and thighs ( I just have had no luck applying it to my stomach). There are great FAQs online for both products done up by Neoborn

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/stero...-epistane.html

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...ormestane.html

    Try it and Good Luck!
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    Hiya Dutch!


    Thanks for dropping in and helping us out here Dutch. It's really great to learn from your experiences.

    I have to say AMEN brother. You've been a great inspiration to me personally. I copied your pulsed Epistane plus Formestane regimen at the end of last year and put on 20 pounds of beef in 7 weeks. All lifts were way up also.

    I"m a little leary of test injections because test will aromatize to estrogen metabolites. I think Formestane may be one of the most useful supps for older guys because of the increase in aromatase activity as we age. Why dump a bunch of raw test in the system when we convert it to estrogen at a higher rate than younger guys? Perhaps test injections should be accompanied by a suicide aromatase inhibitor. It's hard to find a better one than Formestane. My understanding is that transdermal formestane has very low liver toxicity also. I can't wait to jump into my spring cycle using this fantastic combo.

    Keep us posted on your progress old timer!:squat:
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    Dutch:

    I am in my early 50's, and been thinking about trying my 1st cycle. Thanks, for the advice. I was thinking about Trenadrol, but after your comments, I have change my mind. The links are also great advice by Neoborn. Planning on cutting and bulking for the summer.
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    Is epidrol as good or close?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    I've been lifting more than 5 decades and using various supps more than 3 and now finally I found the best thing ever made. Best from the standpoint of safety and effectiveness. Both of these qualities being especially important to we aging lifters. The combo I believe in and have already used three times in the last year is Epistane (an extremely mild steroid that is practically untraceable) and Formastane a transdermal that is a great suicide inhibitor for Estrogen. The Epi has Estro controlling properties (it has been around forever for use in breast cancer treatment) and simply cranks up my Test and my Libido. Even though it is sooo mild I further up my safety factor by Pulsing it. This is a system wherein I just use it 3 or 4 times a week and never on the off days. I started at 20 mgs ED, taken just before my workout and went to 30 by week 3 and 40 by week 6. Again all taken about an hour beforehand. I have done up to 10 weeks total and once tried 50 mgs at the end but noticed no improvement so around 40 mgs is my personal "sweetpoint". While nowhere near as strong as Superdrol and other things it really works well. Some guys have used it just for Gyno reduction by taking it say 30 mgs ED @ 1mg X 8 hrs. You have to read up on it. The Form is fantastic for us old guys. We produce way to much Estro by our 50s, ie more than our wives, and it is now known to be the cause of our prostate cancer problems. Cutting down Estro with an Aromatase Inhibitor like Form cuts down your Estro, inversely ups your Test and protects your prostate. Not a bad combo. I use the Form with some Penetrate from NP mix and apply twice a day, morning and night. I like about three squirts and apply it to my chest and thighs ( I just have had no luck applying it to my stomach). There are great FAQs online for both products done up by Neoborn

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/stero...-epistane.html

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...ormestane.html

    Try it and Good Luck!

    I have been scared to use any oral methyl steroid since I got out the hospital in 05. Back in Augusta '05 I was hospitalized with Steroid induced cholostasis. I was in and out for about 2 months. I think the older 4ad and 1test transdermals are a lot safer than these newer oral products. I have been 100% now for a while though. I think if I used an oral steroid again I would be constantly checking my eyes for jaundence. It was the worst experience of my life, a living hell and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
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    ...Nudge
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    T-bone?


    Damn T, you're experience is sobering. Can I ask?

    Did you do straight or pulse cycle?

    Were the compounds more toxic than todays offerings?

    Were you consuming any alcohol at the time?

    Did you do any liver support supps?

    How long or close together were your cycles?

    Thanks for the info and the caution. It's well taken.:bb2:
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpk View Post
    Damn T, you're experience is sobering. Can I ask?

    Did you do straight or pulse cycle?

    Were the compounds more toxic than todays offerings?

    Were you consuming any alcohol at the time?

    Did you do any liver support supps?

    How long or close together were your cycles?

    Thanks for the info and the caution. It's well taken.:bb2:

    It was a long time ago before "pulsing" was trendy. It was when Superdrol first came out, a little time after they said it would be banned and the price went up to around $75 per bottle. I don't drink. I pre-loaded liver-support supplements for 1 month, also blood pressure control supplements, cardio-protective(cholesterol lowering supplements) also. I hadn't done a cycle in at least 8 months. Also I had help with my cycle from a well known moderator on the boards every single step of the way. I have posted about my experience probally at least 100 times in different threads.
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    Liver toxicity


    T-bone,

    I just googled cholestasis and that is some scary chit man.

    This supplement industry is hampered by the lack of scientific data generated about these compounds we all want to use. I see that you've been around quite a while and now I wonder if there is any standard of liver toxicity for these substances. For instance, I keep hearing that Epistane is milder on the liver than SuperDrol. According to who? Is there any objective measure of potential toxicity out there? Or is this just speculative pharmacology mostly on the part of manufacturers? Is Epistane about the same toxicity as two beers? Four beers? Bottle of jack?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpk View Post
    T-bone,

    I just googled cholestasis and that is some scary chit man.

    This supplement industry is hampered by the lack of scientific data generated about these compounds we all want to use. I see that you've been around quite a while and now I wonder if there is any standard of liver toxicity for these substances. For instance, I keep hearing that Epistane is milder on the liver than SuperDrol. According to who? Is there any objective measure of potential toxicity out there? Or is this just speculative pharmacology mostly on the part of manufacturers? Is Epistane about the same toxicity as two beers? Four beers? Bottle of jack?

    Yeah, I don't believe anyone really knows how toxic these products are. When SD first came out people were saying it wasn't liver toxic at all. I have heard about others that this happened to also but not as bad as me. I had to have liver biopsy, and they thought I may have needed a transplant or they would cut off part of the liver and supposedly new tissue would regenerate itself. I was in the hospital for a long time because they were waiting for my bilireuben(sp?) levels to go down but it kept raising, and this was several months after I had stoped using the Superdrol. My local ER had to send me to the lahey clinic in Burlington Ma., where this guy was my doctor and part of the transplant team,

    http://lahey.org/PhysDir/Detail.asp?ID=1034
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    T I was just thinking how stupid we must look with our avy's! Who'd want to talk with bozos like us!
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    Test gents test.. There is no good reason for you all to take untested oral compounds at your ages, when you should be able to easily get test from a docter.. Your age is a helping factor here.. Its easier IMO to get test at say 50 yrs old vs someone 23 asking for it..
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumpDogg View Post
    Test E would be my choice.. First off you are not trashing your liver, and secondly it can be taken for prolonged periods with minimal side effects honestly.. I remember reading an article in the old Muscle Media, before they went all commercial and anti steriods.. They quoted a study ( New England Medical Journal ) of men who were given 12 weeks ( typical steriod length cycle) of 600 mgs of test e or c.. Does not matter if it was enth or cyp...
    All blood work was done before and after.. and in short the study concluded it found no major changes for the most part with that regimen.. except for lean mass gains, bodyfat loss etc..

    For anyone aging there are docters who will do you right and restore your hormone levels, but you will have to search perhaps to find the right ones.. everything has a price...

    if you just want to use pro hormones/ pro steriods because of how easily they are obtained, that is also your choice, but it is going to be harsher on your liver, cholestrol, triglycerides and probably the way you feel vs using an injectable test.. perhaps some formestane to combat estrogen issue's..

    you have a ton of options.. I was just giving another opinion.

    Amen to that. i agree totally. Personally I wouldn't touch too many these new latest greatest "pro hormones or pro steroids" or whatever they are called these days. Many of them are all brand new and any supp company can look up a chem thats not on the banned list, order it from china and market it as the newest craze...not knowing a whole lot about the compound and its real effects on the body. Its a little scary to me.

    Test is already in your system and has been around for ages. Just some food for thought really...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post
    Amen to that. i agree totally. Personally I wouldn't touch too many these new latest greatest "pro hormones or pro steroids" or whatever they are called these days. Many of them are all brand new and any supp company can look up a chem thats not on the banned list, order it from china and market it as the newest craze...not knowing a whole lot about the compound and its real effects on the body. Its a little scary to me.

    Test is already in your system and has been around for ages. Just some food for thought really...

    Well I still consider 1T/4AD trans the safest thing out there...Even though they are not legal. This new crap is dangerous and it doesn't matter how much pre-caution you take.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Well I still consider 1T/4AD trans the safest thing out there...Even though they are not legal. This new crap is dangerous and it doesn't matter how much pre-caution you take.
    I agree with that too. 4-ad basically is test and I do really like 1-test. It has always been one of my favorites even after running all the popular known steroids.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Well I still consider 1T/4AD trans the safest thing out there...Even though they are not legal. This new crap is dangerous and it doesn't matter how much pre-caution you take.

    I loved this stack. Made me feel like superman. It was fairly suppressive though. But we didn't have Formestane back then. I remember my PCT was 6-oxo. It did bring the boys back though. I can't help but wonder what a cycle would be like using Form and a proper PCT.
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    Legal Test?


    I never thought of that angle. If I show up to the MD at age 47 with falling test levels, he can justify giving me some form of test and maybe my insurance will pay for it. If a 23 year wants test, he's treated like a dangerous roider and will probably be denied. Also, I get a stay out of jail card because mine is Rx.

    I also agree with DreamWeaver in that I would want to control aromatase activity on my own. Formestane is the shining star here for me. Transdermal and easy on the liver.

    The only issue would be to find a doctor who will play ball. It seems that a lot of them want to try transdermal test first. I keep hearing about Androgel but with very mixed reviews. Perhaps teamed with Formestane it might just be the thing for andropause victims.
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    Test Enanthate / Test Cypionate Tried, Tested and True
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    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    Test Enanthate / Test Cypionate Tried, Tested and True
    Bump this! I do 200mgs a week,split into two shots,Sunday -Wednesday for TRT. Then I run two cycles a year of 600mgs for 12 weeks. Nothing better than Test!
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    Looks like some wild baseless accusations lumping Epistane in with steroids like Superdrol. Interesting since I did several 1AD cycles and 6 or 7 SD cycles. I was even one of the early contributors on a huge thread on SD that ran on BB.com. That was one supp which really needed/needs a very thorough, well planned, exactly followed strategy to maximise performance and minimize negative side-effects. IAD far less so but still it requires careful support to avoid problems. Epi on the other hand is so fricking mild by comparison that I am amazed. It also is a straight derivation from a mild steroid used for decades in treatment of women with breast cancer IIRC. And yes I believe there are many variations like Havoc, Epidrol and more which I simply don't have any time or interest in following. Pulsed Epi is best alternative I have ever known.
    Formastane which I like to stack with Epi is also a possibility on its own. I have been offered Test patches etc by my Doc but I have no interest. Formastane in reducing our Estro inversely raises our Test and at the same time protects the crown jewels. Not a bad trifecta IMHO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    Looks like some wild baseless accusations lumping Epistane in with steroids like Superdrol. Interesting since I did several 1AD cycles and 6 or 7 SD cycles. I was even one of the early contributors on a huge thread on SD that ran on BB.com. That was one supp which really needed/needs a very thorough, well planned, exactly followed strategy to maximise performance and minimize negative side-effects. IAD far less so but still it requires careful support to avoid problems. Epi on the other hand is so fricking mild by comparison that I am amazed. It also is a straight derivation from a mild steroid used for decades in treatment of women with breast cancer IIRC. And yes I believe there are many variations like Havoc, Epidrol and more which I simply don't have any time or interest in following. Pulsed Epi is best alternative I have ever known.
    Formastane which I like to stack with Epi is also a possibility on its own. I have been offered Test patches etc by my Doc but I have no interest. Formastane in reducing our Estro inversely raises our Test and at the same time protects the crown jewels. Not a bad trifecta IMHO.

    I don't think there are any wild baseless accusations at all here. Just the fact that regardless of how mild or extreme, these "legal" things are new and haven't been around nearly as long as test and other known tried and true steroids that have a long backing of cost/benefit ratio on the plus side.

    Unless you are absolutely terrified of the possible repercussions of steroids being illegal, I see no reason to use these legal compounds over real gear. It just doesn't make sense to me for numerous reasons, other than the obvious legal status.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    Looks like some wild baseless accusations lumping Epistane in with steroids like Superdrol. Interesting since I did several 1AD cycles and 6 or 7 SD cycles. I was even one of the early contributors on a huge thread on SD that ran on BB.com. That was one supp which really needed/needs a very thorough, well planned, exactly followed strategy to maximise performance and minimize negative side-effects. IAD far less so but still it requires careful support to avoid problems. Epi on the other hand is so fricking mild by comparison that I am amazed. It also is a straight derivation from a mild steroid used for decades in treatment of women with breast cancer IIRC. And yes I believe there are many variations like Havoc, Epidrol and more which I simply don't have any time or interest in following. Pulsed Epi is best alternative I have ever known.
    Formastane which I like to stack with Epi is also a possibility on its own. I have been offered Test patches etc by my Doc but I have no interest. Formastane in reducing our Estro inversely raises our Test and at the same time protects the crown jewels. Not a bad trifecta IMHO.
    I really like the idea of Formestane solo, when Dsade has his new product word is that you may only have to take it every second day. At my age I really don't care to add mass, I would just be happy to keep what I have (which is a lot) and get and stay lean. I see myself on constant recomp from here on in. Sure I would like to remain strong while I'm at it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    I loved this stack. Made me feel like superman. It was fairly suppressive though. But we didn't have Formestane back then. I remember my PCT was 6-oxo. It did bring the boys back though. I can't help but wonder what a cycle would be like using Form and a proper PCT.

    We had E-form back than which is Formestane. I wouldn't use Eform for pct though since it can be supressive. Also you could have used Nolva for PCT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    We had E-form back than which is Formestane. I wouldn't use Eform for pct though since it can be supressive. Also you could have used Nolva for PCT.
    During cycle is more what I was thinking. Most people weren't using nolva at this time. Most were just using 6OXO. I admit I am a dummy about anabolic substances especially back then. That was the first thing I ever used and the advice at the time was use 6OXO. It turned out ok, I just think it would be so much better with Formestane on cycle and a proper PCT, of course.
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    I'm 38 and doing some research for my first cycle.

    I'm debating between Epistane + Formastane vs Test

    Can someone shed some light on mass gain performance vs. sides on the two?

    Lastly, what is needed for PCT for Test vs. Epi+Form?

    Thanks for any insight
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    Quote Originally Posted by meridian View Post
    I'm 38 and doing some research for my first cycle.

    I'm debating between Epistane + Formastane vs Test

    Can someone shed some light on mass gain performance vs. sides on the two?

    Lastly, what is needed for PCT for Test vs. Epi+Form?

    Thanks for any insight
    I can't comment on any of your choices other than test but test is, imo, your best option!

    However, for PCT, anytime you shut down endogenous production of hormones with any exogenous hormones your pct should always be the same. I stick with tried and true methods with maybe something a little newer thrown in! I still like Clomid and nolva combo for PCT and with HCG ran throughout the cycle up to a couple weeks out from PCT. However there have been some good studies, and I think Dr. D may have advocated it, on toremifene. I have yet to try it but I have some that I plan on running for my next PC in place of tamoxifene. I have thrown the kitchen sink at my PC before and never really got better results than with the old standby of clomid and nolva, so we'll see how it goes with clomid and toremifene.

    Also some info I read recently on clomid's efficacy unchanged at doses of 25 - 50mgs, rather than what is commonly pushed in the bodybuilding community of 100mgs! This really would get rid of some of those nasty sides that some people have issues with!

    Anyways, just my 2cc's!
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    Thansk!


    Quote Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post
    I can't comment on any of your choices other than test but test is, imo, your best option!

    However, for PCT, anytime you shut down endogenous production of hormones with any exogenous hormones your pct should always be the same. I stick with tried and true methods with maybe something a little newer thrown in! I still like Clomid and nolva combo for PCT and with HCG ran throughout the cycle up to a couple weeks out from PCT. However there have been some good studies, and I think Dr. D may have advocated it, on toremifene. I have yet to try it but I have some that I plan on running for my next PC in place of tamoxifene. I have thrown the kitchen sink at my PC before and never really got better results than with the old standby of clomid and nolva, so we'll see how it goes with clomid and toremifene.

    Also some info I read recently on clomid's efficacy unchanged at doses of 25 - 50mgs, rather than what is commonly pushed in the bodybuilding community of 100mgs! This really would get rid of some of those nasty sides that some people have issues with!

    Anyways, just my 2cc's!

    Thansk! I read about toremifene but not too many writeups on it. Has anyone tried Clomid at 50mg wk 1&2 taper down to 25 mg wk 3&4?

    Also, would it be a good idea to incorporate foprmestane with a test-e cycle? Would it combat moon face and bloat? Possible gyno?
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    Quote Originally Posted by meridian View Post
    Thansk! I read about toremifene but not too many writeups on it. Has anyone tried Clomid at 50mg wk 1&2 taper down to 25 mg wk 3&4?

    Also, would it be a good idea to incorporate foprmestane with a test-e cycle? Would it combat moon face and bloat? Possible gyno?
    There is several schools of thought on that one. Some say run and anit-e for gyno and generally keeping estrogen at bay all throughout, others say let your estro stay and only treat gyno if it flares up with nolva or ralox or toremifene.

    Personally, I don't have too many issues with bloat and only occasional flare ups of gyno. So I generally don't run any anti-e's, I keep my bloat in check with my diet. If I get too much sodium on a heavy test cycle my blood pressure rises and I swell up and just overal feel terrible. So if I stay away from that i usually don't have too many issues. If I do have a little sting or sign of gyno I will just dose arimidex for a day or two and that kills it, although that isn't the recommended thing to do....it works for me.

    So, I would suggest you keep it on hand just in case but don't just blindly start it. Wait and see how bad you bloat or if you start seeing any signs of gyno.
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    Test + Form


    Aromatase is the enzyme that converts testosterone into estrogens. Unfortunately for older lifters, aromatase activity actually increases with age. Thank God for supps like transdermal formestane. This stuff is a suicide aromatase inhibitor with lots of other advantageous properties. I've wondered how some of the older guys have done on a test + form cycle. I don't think form would be as necessary for a younger lifter though.

    Test + formestane may be one of the best combos for older guys. Dutchman has certainly done extremely well with his Epistane + form stack, but I'm curious about the effect of good old testosterone with some form blocking its conversion into chick juice.:clean:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    I've been lifting more than 5 decades and using various supps more than 3 and now finally I found the best thing ever made. Best from the standpoint of safety and effectiveness. Both of these qualities being especially important to we aging lifters. The combo I believe in and have already used three times in the last year is Epistane (an extremely mild steroid that is practically untraceable) and Formastane a transdermal that is a great suicide inhibitor for Estrogen. The Epi has Estro controlling properties (it has been around forever for use in breast cancer treatment) and simply cranks up my Test and my Libido. Even though it is sooo mild I further up my safety factor by Pulsing it. This is a system wherein I just use it 3 or 4 times a week and never on the off days. I started at 20 mgs ED, taken just before my workout and went to 30 by week 3 and 40 by week 6. Again all taken about an hour beforehand. I have done up to 10 weeks total and once tried 50 mgs at the end but noticed no improvement so around 40 mgs is my personal "sweetpoint". While nowhere near as strong as Superdrol and other things it really works well. Some guys have used it just for Gyno reduction by taking it say 30 mgs ED @ 1mg X 8 hrs. You have to read up on it. The Form is fantastic for us old guys. We produce way to much Estro by our 50s, ie more than our wives, and it is now known to be the cause of our prostate cancer problems. Cutting down Estro with an Aromatase Inhibitor like Form cuts down your Estro, inversely ups your Test and protects your prostate. Not a bad combo. I use the Form with some Penetrate from NP mix and apply twice a day, morning and night. I like about three squirts and apply it to my chest and thighs ( I just have had no luck applying it to my stomach). There are great FAQs online for both products done up by Neoborn

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/stero...-epistane.html

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...ormestane.html

    Try it and Good Luck!
    HEY D MAN!

    Very good info.

    That is almost exactly how I did my Epistane Pulse. 20 mg 1 hour before my workout and ONLY on workout days.

    VERY happy with the results and will be doing another cycle very soon.



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    Quote Originally Posted by PumpDogg View Post
    Test E would be my choice.. First off you are not trashing your liver, and secondly it can be taken for prolonged periods with minimal side effects honestly.. I remember reading an article in the old Muscle Media, before they went all commercial and anti steriods.. They quoted a study ( New England Medical Journal ) of men who were given 12 weeks ( typical steriod length cycle) of 600 mgs of test e or c.. Does not matter if it was enth or cyp...
    All blood work was done before and after.. and in short the study concluded it found no major changes for the most part with that regimen.. except for lean mass gains, bodyfat loss etc..
    That study is titled The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men published in THE NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE available in full at: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/335/1/1

    In that study they used 600 mg of testosterone enanthate per week for 10 weeks w/ positive anabolic effects, no significant side-effects and full recovery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    I've been lifting more than 5 decades and using various supps more than 3 and now finally I found the best thing ever made. Best from the standpoint of safety and effectiveness. Both of these qualities being especially important to we aging lifters. The combo I believe in and have already used three times in the last year is Epistane (an extremely mild steroid that is practically untraceable) and Formastane a transdermal that is a great suicide inhibitor for Estrogen. The Epi has Estro controlling properties (it has been around forever for use in breast cancer treatment) and simply cranks up my Test and my Libido. Even though it is sooo mild I further up my safety factor by Pulsing it. This is a system wherein I just use it 3 or 4 times a week and never on the off days. I started at 20 mgs ED, taken just before my workout and went to 30 by week 3 and 40 by week 6. Again all taken about an hour beforehand. I have done up to 10 weeks total and once tried 50 mgs at the end but noticed no improvement so around 40 mgs is my personal "sweetpoint". While nowhere near as strong as Superdrol and other things it really works well. Some guys have used it just for Gyno reduction by taking it say 30 mgs ED @ 10mg X 8 hrs. You have to read up on it. The Form is fantastic for us old guys. We produce way to much Estro by our 50s, ie more than our wives, and it is now known to be the cause of our prostate cancer problems. Cutting down Estro with an Aromatase Inhibitor like Form cuts down your Estro, inversely ups your Test and protects your prostate. Not a bad combo. I use the Form with some Penetrate from NP mix and apply twice a day, morning and night. I like about three squirts and apply it to my chest and thighs ( I just have had no luck applying it to my stomach). There are great FAQs online for both products done up by Neoborn

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/stero...-epistane.html

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...ormestane.html

    Try it and Good Luck!

    Quote Originally Posted by CROWLER View Post
    HEY D MAN!

    Very good info.

    That is almost exactly how I did my Epistane Pulse. 20 mg 1 hour before my workout and ONLY on workout days.

    VERY happy with the results and will be doing another cycle very soon.

    CROWLER
    Dutchman & Crowler I appreciate both of you gentlemen relating your positive experiences. I have never used or even considered Epistane and I have always looked at a pulse and thought "hmmmmmmmmm...maybe...mayb e not".

    The problem for older guys is shutting down their HPTA and then post cycle trying to bring it back completely...sometimes this can be difficult or prolonged. It seems Epi minimizes these problems and also contributes to some anabolism. While it is true that injectable testosterone will bring about a lot more anabolism it also will have a larger negative impact on HPTA.

    It seems to me older guys need to be more concerned w/ minimizing problems then maxamizing gains so maybe Epistane as you two laid it out is the better way to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by datBtrue View Post
    Dutchman & Crowler I appreciate both of you gentlemen relating your positive experiences. I have never used or even considered Epistane and I have always looked at a pulse and thought "hmmmmmmmmm...maybe...mayb e not".

    The problem for older guys is shutting down their HPTA and then post cycle trying to bring it back completely...sometimes this can be difficult or prolonged. It seems Epi minimizes these problems and also contributes to some anabolism. While it is true that injectable testosterone will bring about a lot more anabolism it also will have a larger negative impact on HPTA.

    It seems to me older guys need to be more concerned w/ minimizing problems then maxamizing gains so maybe Epistane as you two laid it out is the better way to go.

    Well said....
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    Interesting thread. I have considered using Havoc or Epistane but wasn't sure how it would be for somebody my age. I keep it very mild and avoid harsher products. If it's something I will need a Serm for I hesitate, as stated before the peaks and valleys are too much. Pulsing seems to be the way to go.

    Then again I am not really interested in gaining any size and am on constant recomp. Maintain yes gain not so much as extra weight is not desirable at my age. I have a lot a muscle mass I just want to make what I have look better.

    Right now I am running Furazadrol which is quite mild. This is for fat loss mainly but has some other good properties. Would Epistane be a good recomp compound as well?
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