[meridian]

I'm 38 and doing some research for my first cycle.

I'm debating between Epistane + Formastane vs Test

Can someone shed some light on mass gain performance vs. sides on the two?

Lastly, what is needed for PCT for Test vs. Epi+Form?

Thanks for any insight

[Neuromancer]

Originally Posted by meridian

I'm 38 and doing some research for my first cycle.

I'm debating between Epistane + Formastane vs Test

Can someone shed some light on mass gain performance vs. sides on the two?

Lastly, what is needed for PCT for Test vs. Epi+Form?

Thanks for any insight

I can't comment on any of your choices other than test but test is, imo, your best option!

However, for PCT, anytime you shut down endogenous production of hormones with any exogenous hormones your pct should always be the same. I stick with tried and true methods with maybe something a little newer thrown in! I still like Clomid and nolva combo for PCT and with HCG ran throughout the cycle up to a couple weeks out from PCT. However there have been some good studies, and I think Dr. D may have advocated it, on toremifene. I have yet to try it but I have some that I plan on running for my next PC in place of tamoxifene. I have thrown the kitchen sink at my PC before and never really got better results than with the old standby of clomid and nolva, so we'll see how it goes with clomid and toremifene.

Also some info I read recently on clomid's efficacy unchanged at doses of 25 - 50mgs, rather than what is commonly pushed in the bodybuilding community of 100mgs! This really would get rid of some of those nasty sides that some people have issues with!

Anyways, just my 2cc's!

[meridian]

Originally Posted by Neuromancer

I can't comment on any of your choices other than test but test is, imo, your best option!

However, for PCT, anytime you shut down endogenous production of hormones with any exogenous hormones your pct should always be the same. I stick with tried and true methods with maybe something a little newer thrown in! I still like Clomid and nolva combo for PCT and with HCG ran throughout the cycle up to a couple weeks out from PCT. However there have been some good studies, and I think Dr. D may have advocated it, on toremifene. I have yet to try it but I have some that I plan on running for my next PC in place of tamoxifene. I have thrown the kitchen sink at my PC before and never really got better results than with the old standby of clomid and nolva, so we'll see how it goes with clomid and toremifene.

Also some info I read recently on clomid's efficacy unchanged at doses of 25 - 50mgs, rather than what is commonly pushed in the bodybuilding community of 100mgs! This really would get rid of some of those nasty sides that some people have issues with!

Anyways, just my 2cc's!

Thansk! I read about toremifene but not too many writeups on it. Has anyone tried Clomid at 50mg wk 1&2 taper down to 25 mg wk 3&4?

Also, would it be a good idea to incorporate foprmestane with a test-e cycle? Would it combat moon face and bloat? Possible gyno?

[Neuromancer]

Originally Posted by meridian

Thansk! I read about toremifene but not too many writeups on it. Has anyone tried Clomid at 50mg wk 1&2 taper down to 25 mg wk 3&4?

Also, would it be a good idea to incorporate foprmestane with a test-e cycle? Would it combat moon face and bloat? Possible gyno?

There is several schools of thought on that one. Some say run and anit-e for gyno and generally keeping estrogen at bay all throughout, others say let your estro stay and only treat gyno if it flares up with nolva or ralox or toremifene.

Personally, I don't have too many issues with bloat and only occasional flare ups of gyno. So I generally don't run any anti-e's, I keep my bloat in check with my diet. If I get too much sodium on a heavy test cycle my blood pressure rises and I swell up and just overal feel terrible. So if I stay away from that i usually don't have too many issues. If I do have a little sting or sign of gyno I will just dose arimidex for a day or two and that kills it, although that isn't the recommended thing to do....it works for me.

So, I would suggest you keep it on hand just in case but don't just blindly start it. Wait and see how bad you bloat or if you start seeing any signs of gyno.

[jpk]

Aromatase is the enzyme that converts testosterone into estrogens. Unfortunately for older lifters, aromatase activity actually increases with age. Thank God for supps like transdermal formestane. This stuff is a suicide aromatase inhibitor with lots of other advantageous properties. I've wondered how some of the older guys have done on a test + form cycle. I don't think form would be as necessary for a younger lifter though.

Test + formestane may be one of the best combos for older guys. Dutchman has certainly done extremely well with his Epistane + form stack, but I'm curious about the effect of good old testosterone with some form blocking its conversion into chick juice.

[CROWLER]

Originally Posted by Dutchman

I've been lifting more than 5 decades and using various supps more than 3 and now finally I found the best thing ever made. Best from the standpoint of safety and effectiveness. Both of these qualities being especially important to we aging lifters. The combo I believe in and have already used three times in the last year is Epistane (an extremely mild steroid that is practically untraceable) and Formastane a transdermal that is a great suicide inhibitor for Estrogen. The Epi has Estro controlling properties (it has been around forever for use in breast cancer treatment) and simply cranks up my Test and my Libido. Even though it is sooo mild I further up my safety factor by Pulsing it. This is a system wherein I just use it 3 or 4 times a week and never on the off days. I started at 20 mgs ED, taken just before my workout and went to 30 by week 3 and 40 by week 6. Again all taken about an hour beforehand. I have done up to 10 weeks total and once tried 50 mgs at the end but noticed no improvement so around 40 mgs is my personal "sweetpoint". While nowhere near as strong as Superdrol and other things it really works well. Some guys have used it just for Gyno reduction by taking it say 30 mgs ED @ 1mg X 8 hrs. You have to read up on it. The Form is fantastic for us old guys. We produce way to much Estro by our 50s, ie more than our wives, and it is now known to be the cause of our prostate cancer problems. Cutting down Estro with an Aromatase Inhibitor like Form cuts down your Estro, inversely ups your Test and protects your prostate. Not a bad combo. I use the Form with some Penetrate from NP mix and apply twice a day, morning and night. I like about three squirts and apply it to my chest and thighs ( I just have had no luck applying it to my stomach). There are great FAQs online for both products done up by Neoborn

Neoborn's Epistane FAQ - Q and A baby!

Neoborn's Formestane / EForm FAQ...

Try it and Good Luck!

HEY D MAN!

Very good info.

That is almost exactly how I did my Epistane Pulse. 20 mg 1 hour before my workout and ONLY on workout days.

VERY happy with the results and will be doing another cycle very soon.



CROWLER

[datBtrue]

Originally Posted by PumpDogg

Test E would be my choice.. First off you are not trashing your liver, and secondly it can be taken for prolonged periods with minimal side effects honestly.. I remember reading an article in the old Muscle Media, before they went all commercial and anti steriods.. They quoted a study ( New England Medical Journal ) of men who were given 12 weeks ( typical steriod length cycle) of 600 mgs of test e or c.. Does not matter if it was enth or cyp...
All blood work was done before and after.. and in short the study concluded it found no major changes for the most part with that regimen.. except for lean mass gains, bodyfat loss etc..

That study is titled The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men published in THE NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE available in full at: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/335/1/1

In that study they used 600 mg of testosterone enanthate per week for 10 weeks w/ positive anabolic effects, no significant side-effects and full recovery.

[datBtrue]

Originally Posted by Dutchman

I've been lifting more than 5 decades and using various supps more than 3 and now finally I found the best thing ever made. Best from the standpoint of safety and effectiveness. Both of these qualities being especially important to we aging lifters. The combo I believe in and have already used three times in the last year is Epistane (an extremely mild steroid that is practically untraceable) and Formastane a transdermal that is a great suicide inhibitor for Estrogen. The Epi has Estro controlling properties (it has been around forever for use in breast cancer treatment) and simply cranks up my Test and my Libido. Even though it is sooo mild I further up my safety factor by Pulsing it. This is a system wherein I just use it 3 or 4 times a week and never on the off days. I started at 20 mgs ED, taken just before my workout and went to 30 by week 3 and 40 by week 6. Again all taken about an hour beforehand. I have done up to 10 weeks total and once tried 50 mgs at the end but noticed no improvement so around 40 mgs is my personal "sweetpoint". While nowhere near as strong as Superdrol and other things it really works well. Some guys have used it just for Gyno reduction by taking it say 30 mgs ED @ 10mg X 8 hrs. You have to read up on it. The Form is fantastic for us old guys. We produce way to much Estro by our 50s, ie more than our wives, and it is now known to be the cause of our prostate cancer problems. Cutting down Estro with an Aromatase Inhibitor like Form cuts down your Estro, inversely ups your Test and protects your prostate. Not a bad combo. I use the Form with some Penetrate from NP mix and apply twice a day, morning and night. I like about three squirts and apply it to my chest and thighs ( I just have had no luck applying it to my stomach). There are great FAQs online for both products done up by Neoborn

Neoborn's Epistane FAQ - Q and A baby!

Neoborn's Formestane / EForm FAQ...

Try it and Good Luck!

Originally Posted by CROWLER

HEY D MAN!

Very good info.

That is almost exactly how I did my Epistane Pulse. 20 mg 1 hour before my workout and ONLY on workout days.

VERY happy with the results and will be doing another cycle very soon.

CROWLER

Dutchman & Crowler I appreciate both of you gentlemen relating your positive experiences. I have never used or even considered Epistane and I have always looked at a pulse and thought "hmmmmmmmmm...maybe...maybe not".

The problem for older guys is shutting down their HPTA and then post cycle trying to bring it back completely...sometimes this can be difficult or prolonged. It seems Epi minimizes these problems and also contributes to some anabolism. While it is true that injectable testosterone will bring about a lot more anabolism it also will have a larger negative impact on HPTA.

It seems to me older guys need to be more concerned w/ minimizing problems then maxamizing gains so maybe Epistane as you two laid it out is the better way to go.

[Neuromancer]

Originally Posted by datBtrue

Dutchman & Crowler I appreciate both of you gentlemen relating your positive experiences. I have never used or even considered Epistane and I have always looked at a pulse and thought "hmmmmmmmmm...maybe...maybe not".

The problem for older guys is shutting down their HPTA and then post cycle trying to bring it back completely...sometimes this can be difficult or prolonged. It seems Epi minimizes these problems and also contributes to some anabolism. While it is true that injectable testosterone will bring about a lot more anabolism it also will have a larger negative impact on HPTA.

It seems to me older guys need to be more concerned w/ minimizing problems then maxamizing gains so maybe Epistane as you two laid it out is the better way to go.

Well said....

[DreamWeaver]

Interesting thread. I have considered using Havoc or Epistane but wasn't sure how it would be for somebody my age. I keep it very mild and avoid harsher products. If it's something I will need a Serm for I hesitate, as stated before the peaks and valleys are too much. Pulsing seems to be the way to go.

Then again I am not really interested in gaining any size and am on constant recomp. Maintain yes gain not so much as extra weight is not desirable at my age. I have a lot a muscle mass I just want to make what I have look better.

Right now I am running Furazadrol which is quite mild. This is for fat loss mainly but has some other good properties. Would Epistane be a good recomp compound as well?

[MacTech]

Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

If it's something I will need a Serm for I hesitate, as stated before the peaks and valleys are too much. Pulsing seems to be the way to go.

Pulsing isn't all that it's hyped up to be. I posted in another thread the blood test results of a ~ 40 yr. old using Epi pulsed M-W-F for 8 weeks.

Result : Testosterone was at 145 and 4 weeks later after using Clomid it was at 485. Good lipids, low BP and good liver enzyme test results before and after. He won't be pulsing anymore. His results were not what they were with two previous Epi cycles.

Epi or any exogenous hormone will cause HPTA shutdown. You won't get around it. You may not feel shutdown but I bet my next paycheck you will be. You had better use a SERM after Epi.

Use of SERMS is a great Test booster. Much better than any other OTC supplements.

The only benefit of his shutdown was the doc seeing his low test results and he prescribed TRT, and it was not Androgel. He was happy.

[DreamWeaver]

What if you used Formestane on off days?

[MacTech]

Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

What if you used Formestane on off days?

What is it you are trying to accomplish?

[DreamWeaver]

Myself I am looking to recomp and gain strength and harden what I have. I really don't need to add more mass at my age. Mass is not really a problem it's keeping it while I lean out. Another thing I don't like is not being able to increase my strength while leaning out.

I am not completely sold on the idea of cycling something like this but I was researching the idea. Pulsing sounded like a good solution, maybe it's not. By using formestane I thought I could solve the HPTA shutdown problem and run the cycle without having to take a million support and pct supps. I just want to minimize the hassle and the expense a little. I also want maximum safety so if I ever did cycle it I would take what I needed to take. I always do a lot of research before I use something and I rarely end up using anything.