Chronic tendonitis/tendonisis in forearm
03-02-2008 03:01 AM
Chronic tendonitis/tendonisis in forearm
I am 41 and have been dealing w/ chronic tendonitis/tendonisis in my forearms (mostly the r. one) for the past 8 months. It kept me out of the gym for about 6 months while I did P/T, Active Release Therapy, took Bulk Cissus, Celadrin, stretching, failed attempt at getting Oratropin, etc. Now I am back in the gym and it seems to be acting up again. I have made adjustments in my training ie: form, grip, exercises, etc. I have thought of many possible causes (ie: age and have to deal with it, test too low or hormonal imbalance?, wrong style training (5x5 too heavy a load) maybe I should be doing HST for example with less volume. Can't figure it out though. Anyone else dealing with this problem found an effective way to deal with it? I don't want to be out of the gym again. Any ideas would be appreciated.
03-02-2008 08:10 AM
I here it works on tendonitis , it it's very good for joints. I had a wrist injury from lifting a while ago and now it's almost completely gone.
I bought Primaforce Cissus.
Hope it helps.
But you are already taking some cissus....
I'm sure more people will be able to help you in this forum.
03-02-2008 04:06 PM
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I am currently taking Bulk Cissus, CEE, L-Glutamine, Powerfull, BCAA's, Fish Oils and as well as Glucosamine and MSM. Maybe a better question would be how have people found ways to work around this issue. Specifically what routines have worked for you. For example I have been doing db bench w/ neutral grip as this is easier on the forearms, I have been doing rows w/ underhand (palms away) rather than overhand grip as this is less stressful for me on the forearms. Pullups are out of the question, I think chinups (palms facing me) is easier but probably should avoid these. How have people still managed to get their arm/shoulder work in w/ this ailment. I was out 6 mnths and I am not doing this again. Sorry to ramble. Thanks for any help.
Originally Posted by MarcoPollo
05-06-2008 09:40 PM
WOW I feel for you! I spent over a year going back and forth to doctors and P/T and nothing worked. I finally did the research and realised the Tendinosis is a condition in where small tears in the tendon cause pain. It is often mistreated as Tendinitis but the treatment is different. For Tendinitis the treatment is rest but Tendinosis the treatment is P/T. All I can tell you is what worked for me, I did light forarm work and used a band for the arm called Band-It google it and Tendinosis and you will learn more.
Originally Posted by glipp
05-07-2008 02:25 AM
I've had tendonitis in my elbows for the last 8 months, primarily my left elbow. The doctor said that the generic "tennis elbow" is the tendons on the head of the outside of the elbow, and what they call "golfer's elbow" is on the inside. The inside thing is a *****, makes me see stars when I do something wrong. I tried taking time off from lifting too. I've found that I do a combination of resting when it flares (worse than usual, its always there) and not doing lifts that aggravate it. For instance, no way can I do regular curls. But I can to reverse grip curls without pain. Pull ups are a bear too, I try to find other things like db rows instead. Oh, and I did a course of prednisolone (sp?) that was great, but the doctor won't keep prescribing it. He still wants me to take several months off of lifting. Not going to happen...
05-07-2008 05:25 AM
Try looking up prolotherapy, it did a lot of good for me. Also, do some reading on IGF-1.
05-07-2008 07:28 AM
I've gotten the same thing usually from pushing too much weight on reverse grip forearm curls, pull-ups, and reverse grip rows. I acutually have it now & was thinking to myself the same questions. I'm going to lay off the reverse grip movements & pullups plus go lighter.
05-07-2008 01:39 PM
It sounds like youíre taking the right sups (Cissus, BCAA's, Fish Oils and as well as Glucosamine), but I would definitely add Chondroitin, get a Glucosamine/chondroitin sup. Iíve tried going w/o Chondroitin but it didnít do me any good. Iíve never used MSM but some swear by it. Under normal circumstances, I donít feel the need to do Cissus with the Glucosamine/chondroitin, but Iíd leave it in until things clear up.
Originally Posted by glipp
IMO, you should avoid any analgesics before a work out, they mask the pain you need to avoid. For me, to get rid of tendonitis I have to never, ever, aggravate the area. For this reason you should avoid Cissus before a wo. I think Cissus has some analgesic properties. The other thing I have to do is work the area with high reps (10 to 15). I think the high reps work the muscle without much stress on the tendon. Donít try to work thru the pain, if it hurts that much youíre going too heavy. In my experience 6 weeks of this usually works. Be careful, one screw up and the 6 weeks start over again.
If you stick to the plan above, it doesnít matter what exercises you choose. As I can tell you found out, sometimes all you need to do is vary the angle a little. Things like pull-ups donít work very well, because itís hard to do them with high reps.
To avoid tendonitis Iíve increased my reps. For benches, squats, and deads I still do a rep range of about 4-15, but for most other exercises I keep the rep range of 8-12 instead of the 6-10 I used to do. Iíve been doing that for about 6 years and can only remember a couple instances of tendonitis. One was attributable to not being careful, the other Iím not sure how it happened. You didn't specify how many sets you're doing, but a good rule of thumb is for the large muscle groups like chest, I do about 12 sets, for the smaller like bi's or shoulders 8-10 sets.
Everyoneís different, but Iím inclined not to attribute your problem to being 41, Iím 53.
05-11-2008 02:41 AM
Just to check back in on this thread, thanks for the replies everyone. Thought I would share an article that I found helpful and I will be incorporating into my training. Still trying to get a handle on exactly how I will use it ie: which exercises, etc. Sorry for the length of the article. Anyway here it is:
This may be the single most important article you will ever read. You are very likely to develop a tendon problem if you lift weights. You currently are more likely to be diagnosed wrong by a physician about that tendon problem. Your whole lifting career can be ended because of an improper treatment plan. ARE YOU WILLNG TO TAKE THAT RISK?
The tendon is a very dense/fibrous tissue that is formed from the connective tissue of the muscle. It allows for a very sturdy attachment to the bone. It is this tough nature that brings about an obvious problem. It heals very slowly once it is injured. If you rupture it, surgery is your only option.
If you have had tendon pain for a period of time longer than two weeks, you should be very aware that it is not likely tendonitis. That's right; your doctor may have told you for the past two years that your problem is an inflammatory condition requiring you to take NSAIDs (Non Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs) like they are candy to a child on Halloween.
You can be doing even more damage by following that dangerous course of treatment. Dangerous? Yes, because not only are you causing more injury to the injured tendon, the fact is that over 16,000 people die every year from taking Advil, Aleve, Nuprin, Aspirin, etc. They eat away at your stomach and your lining of your heart and kill you.
Now we have your attention!
Tendonitis Vs. Tendonosis
Tendonitis is actually very rare; the tendon is more likely to have a condition known as tendonosis. It may look like the same word, but it is very different and if you are confused at this point, then you understand why most doctors are lost too.
Tendonosis is a degenerative condition that is treated completely different from its inflammatory misnomer, tendonitis. The -itis is a suffix that means inflammation. We could go on about this all day- Take a look at the table below to grasp a comparison of the two conditions.
Table 1. Comparing Tendonosis To Tendonitis
Very Common; Very Rare
Requires months/years to heal; Requires only 14 days to heal
Treated with therapeutic exercise; Aggravated by exercise
Irritated by NSAIDs; Helped by NSAIDs
Shows up Black on a MRI (T1); Shows up White on an MRI
Usually feels better after proper training; Hurts to move at all
Responds to Electric stimulation and heat; Irritated by heat
Irritated by Ice and rest; Loves rest and ice
Helped by friction massage; No friction massage
Most not helped by surgery; No help from surgery
Usually cool to touch; Usually warm to touch
Specifically proanthocyanidins (grape seed) that have been suggested to prevent activation of metalloproteases, decrease free-radical production and stabilize proteins. There hasn't been much work done in humans with proanthocyanidins so there isn't much out there. I'm thinking about 500 - 1000 mg/d to begin. Most of the capsules contain about 100 mg (Nature's Way).
Training For Treatment
Consider using this approach only after confirming your proper diagnosis with your doctor. Tendon Pathology includes but is not limited to: tendonosis/ tendinopathy, tenosynovitis and peritendonosis, partial and complete tears, subluxation and dislocation, and entrapment. The proper diagnosis is critical to determine your treatment success.
The treatment for tendonosis requires a varied step approach.
Find what area of the movement is affected by pain. Typically tendonosis does not limit your range of motion, except with pain. This means that if your lifting buddy can gently move the joint, then it shouldn't hurt as bad, as long are you are relaxed. You must find out what movement causes you pain.
This is to warm-up. We are going to work on the area where the movement doesn't hurt. Now let's say that the painful part of the curl is the part at the very bottom or the bench hurts when the bar is close to your chest.
You should warm-up using less weight (less than 20% of max). Perform 30-40 reps with a slow speed. If it hurts to move anything, use Isometric contractions and use six different positions in the range of motion, for 6 seconds at 60% of your max for squeezing the muscle, then repeat it 6 times.
Please note; that this part is likely to cause pain, but not more than 60% or a 6/10. Ten is like Emergency room pain. Using the lighter weight still, enter into that painful range of motion. Do 30-40 reps with a slow speed. Do only one set the first day. Two the next and three the following and then move to the next step.
Instead of lifting more weight, try to move the weight faster. You might need to alter your lifting style here and go to using bands. Day one; do the movement for 30-40 seconds, day two do 50-60 seconds. Over the course of the next couple of days use a friend to count the number of movements. Try to move faster and faster, until you are moving stupid fast.
Training the knees and shoulders might require special machines known as: Orthotrons, available at your local physical therapist, some chiropractic offices and some other specialty physician's clinics.
The next step is to slow down the movement again by 50% and increase the weight by 1-10%. Again, keep in mind that maximum pain is 60% and that speed helps this condition, not heavy weight.
You will also note that the Weider pyramid principle is quite effective here. Begin your group of sets with increased speed and lighter weights more reps. Progress onto sets with heavier weight, slower speed and less reps. Finish by returning to the faster speed, lighter weight and higher reps.
Continue to raise the weight on the lower rep sets until you have obtained 80% of your original strength or that of the opposite healthy side.
As your speed increases, you should note a decrease in pain. During this rehabilitation protocol you will have to back up to a previous step several times.
You can train more often, since you are at sub-maximal levels. It is like jogging everyday, you need to rest, but under most conditions you can recover quickly.
As time goes on, you will be able to return to your pre-injury weight. You will also need to consider that at least once or twice a month, you will need to use speed training/plyometics to stimulate your tendons to thicken and promote proper collateral circulation around them. Have a great workout.
Tendonosis Rehab Summary
Determine the painful movements.
Warm the area up with lighter weights/slower movements.
Train the painful motion using lighter weights/slow movements at first, then progressing to faster and faster movements.
Train at speeds to complete a movement at very high speeds for time intervals of 15, 30, 45, 60 seconds. Special equipment may be required or use of therapy bands.
Reduce the speed and use more weight (1-10%) still maintaining a slower speed at first, and then progressing to a higher speed. Use the Weider pyramid principle to include speed sets with heavier sets.
There are better choices for exercises depending on your particular injury. Trial and error is the best way to determine which are best for your program.
Example Of Bench Pressing For Max 150lb Bench Press
Set # Protocol Weight (lbs)
1 15 seconds = 30 reps high speed 45
2 30 seconds = 60 reps high speed 45
3 15 reps /2 seconds each way 50
4 10 reps /2 seconds each way 60
5 45 seconds = 70 reps high speed 45
6 60 seconds= 100 reps high speed 45
05-11-2008 03:02 AM
sounds like decent advise.
I also had luck...no cure...but luck with doing my own physical therapy on my arm. Wrist curls, wrist extensions and ulnar/radial deviation. Which if you can think of a holding a hammer in your hand and with your arm on your leg, rotating the hammer from one side of your leg to the other.
It's late at night, so if that makes absolutely no sense let me know and I'll find a pic.
I also found running did a lot of good for mine. The blood flow to the tendons in the elbow are low so anytime you can get the area warmed up and working it will increase the blood flow. Plus there isn't a load while running.
My best advise...find what works best for you and stick with it.
05-11-2008 12:05 PM
Funny, but the guy who provided my ART therapy recommended doing the ulnar/radial deviation with a hammer. I actually have done that and have found that more beneficial than the normally recommended wrist curls/extensions. Weird, but helpful.
Originally Posted by firefighter2032
05-17-2008 09:53 AM
sub'd..... I feel your pain!!
05-17-2008 08:49 PM
[QUOTE=glipp;1348559]Just to check back in on this thread, thanks for the replies everyone. Thought I would share an article that I found helpful and I will be incorporating into my training. Still trying to get a handle on exactly how I will use it ie: which exercises, etc. Sorry for the length of the article. Anyway here it is:
This is very similar to the info I read and followed. It worked very well and after a few months I had no pain at all. The Idea behind the Hammer is to work the fast twitch muscles in the forearm. I do the same type of movement with light dumbbells. Good luck man, hope it gets better soon.
05-22-2008 09:38 PM
Last year I stopped a pretty good lifting session due to a possible torn bicep...finally went for an MRI after both arms started to hurt. The left had pain really bad that actually started radiating up my arm and started to burn. All of my online research led me to believe that at least my left was partially torn. I have had "golfer's" elbow for over ten years...never golfed..but I found that reverse curls helped...so in my infinite wisdom, I took some Anti-Inflams, and curled the hell out of my arms...got worse..
So...end of story...I supposedly have tendonitis in both arms..worse than before..
Like Firefighter described above...part of my therapy involves rotating a dumbbell, held on the end, with my arm on a bench..so that the wrist hangs over the edge...if that makes sense. I use a 5 pound weight with (two) 1 1/4 plate mate magnets on the top end of that dumbbell, as I was too lazy to look for a proper sized weight. This particular therapy has worked well, and I'm back in the gym (basement) for almost 3 months, without flareup...and no NSAID's.
The "prolotherapy" tab is coming up...
11-17-2008 11:33 PM
Stretch out your forearm flexors, bicep minor, and bicep. Rub and massage "across" the muscle fiber and "lengthwise" in your forearm and bicep area. Focus on strengthening your fingers and not your grip. so put a rubberbands or hair bands around your finger tips and focus on opening and closing your hands or by spreading them open and closing them. This is what we do in PT for people that claim to have tenis elbow etc. light weights, and bandwork will aid in the recovery. hope this helps!
11-18-2008 12:15 AM
Im 27 and have had golfers elbow. im rehabbing it right now. ive tried every supplement under thye sun. Nsaids for two months(did nothing) cortisone shot(that worked well for me) I ice , stretch before and after and dress it. I had to take six months off upper body. The only way for it to get better in my experience is take time off. it sucks but that's what had to be done for me. I tried every way around it it just got worst. take the time off and it'll heal.
Db I am curious do you think people that had "Golfers elbow will ever be able to be pullups, rack chins?(I currently am doing light pull-downs)
11-20-2008 12:19 AM
Originally Posted by smeton_yea
I've had the curse of the golfer's elbow and I'm now able to do just about everything except pull ups. I do use straps when doing pulling exercises to help take the tension off of the forearms.
For pulldowns now, I use the bar that has the hands facing each other. Don't know why, put it seems to not hurt my forearms. I also have to use a restricted range of motion, if my arms go too high it seems to pull on that tendon.
I am aiming for one day to be able to do pullups again.
11-20-2008 01:07 AM
How long has it been since the golfers elbow has acted up and since youve been able to go heavy?
Originally Posted by firefighter2032
Im in the rehab stage and go light due to if I go heavy it can aggravate it . from all the people Ive talked with time seems to be the biggest issue. one guy said it took a year for his to fully heal(after he stopped aggravating it)
11-20-2008 02:23 AM
I've had a long history of dealing with it. At least 4 years. I have the occassional flare up but I've learned to listen to my body so when I do over use it, it's not too bad.
I have found a few things that seem to really help it when it does act up: Jump roping and using 2 golf balls and twirling them around in my hand. Kinda like you see the chinese balls with bells in them. Yep, none of that sounded right, but I'm unsure how else to explain it.
For whatever reason the repetitive motion seems to loosen it up and dispense the flare up fairly quickly.
Oratropin helped mine alot, but IBE doesn't make it anymore, you can look into IGF-1, it does miracles for curing injured tendons.
Lots of Ice too, after every workout I ice my arm down.
11-20-2008 03:44 PM
I have good insurance. would insurance cover it you think if I could convince my doctor?
Originally Posted by firefighter2032
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