What do you think of this HRT

[calibrated]

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[AGELESS]

I am not a DR, and its hard to answer your questions without specific information....


Personally I would rethink the Decca...at least the dose, although it will help those 58 yr old joints. There have been people who have had problems with "decca d1ck" at that dose, and length of time. There are also people who dont think there is a place for decca in HRT at all..but thats up to you and your DR.

H.R.T. !!!! Hang on for a helluva ride, my friend, and Good Luck!!!

 

[calibrated]

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[sidnee]

Damn, HRT? that sounds like a full blown AS cycle?

 

[calibrated]

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[sidnee]

my comments are wow, thats alot of stuff to get going"
most HRT is test(100-200mg) per week, HCG, armidex, and that about it.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I have to comment on that also, I don't find that 'HRT' by a classical definition. However, I am not an expert or well versed in this area, I do have a reference point to a full-blown AAS cycle which that looks like. A classic Test/Deca cycle with an Anavar kicker. Also, why Sustanon only once a week? You should split those up into far more dosages.

 

[calibrated]

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[sidnee]

look at Ageless's HRT, its nothing like what you are doing, I would get the good Dr.s input on this???

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I can't answer the observations because I just don't know. I do know that after this first phase it will be 200mg of test cypionate or enanthate, Arimidex and HCG depending on how the blood work looks.

It is scary undertaking this and I really felt good about it but after the last posts now I don't know. You've kind of deflated my baloon. I guess I'll have to put my trust with AGELESS and the doctor.

thanks (I guess)

I am not sure what you meant by that comment, I was merely relating my opinion. Deca is not usually prescribed, at least to my knowledge, during HRT for varying reasons.

 

[calibrated]

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[Hardgain]

Mulletsoldier I have to comment on that also, I don't find that 'HRT' by a classical definition. However, I am not an expert or well versed in this area, I do have a reference point to a full-blown anabolic steroids cycle which that looks like. A classic Test/Deca cycle with an Anavar kicker. Also, why Sustanon only once a week? You should split those up into far more dosages.

This is because you aren't doing HRT. Our doctors are customizing our HRT to us so there is no "classic" definition. I discussed my concerns associated with age with my doctor and he prescribed a nearly identical cycle "therapy".
I did not experience any issues with my equipment due to the Deca (Nandrolone) but some do not know that deca is most effective with very high dosages of protein which seems to emphasize its posittive and minimize its negative but everyone is different. And, as to your "full blown anabolics cycle" comment, if you did a little more research you would find out that this is about half of a "full blown" cycle. Also, why would he increase the rate of consumption on your recomendation ? These are his doctor prescribed dosages AND interval...............are you his doctor ?

I have to say that I grew on my HRT, 10 pounds and I finally hit a 320 bench which had been eluding me for some time. I am bery happy with the results of this "low dose" cycle and if my wife allows me,(heck with the Alpha male mentality, I want her every night not the dog house) I will. Married 12.5 years.

Neck 17.5 Biceps 18 Chest 48 Waist 34 forearms 16 Legs (need more work, little above average) 6' 210 Lbs.

:bb2:

 

[calibrated]

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[BigJimCalhoun]

What did you think of the Anavar? I read today that it helps with lowering SBGH.

 

[Hardgain]

Well here it is 12 weeks later and there have been many changes all for the good. I'm not on Sustanon anymore and almost tapered off the deca, using just test E (seems like Ageless predicted that). Ditching the deca is hard as the joints really hurt until your body takes up production of synovial fluids again. Through trying the dosages from 200mg to 500 mg I 've found that 300mg (actually 210mg factoring out the ester) every 7 days seems to be a sweet spot for me. Test levels are between 600 and 750, Estrogen has been holding around 26 (low mid range) no zits. I don't have to take the anti E very often at that level and I am able to maintain and grow muscle. Haven't used HCG yet, there was shrinkage but at a point still comfortable it stopped.

BF has dropped noticeably and I've lost 4' on the waist. Even with Lots of cardio and a good diet I still gained 15lbs.

There are so many other areas it's helped in I can't believe it, sex, attitude, mental clarity, depression, decision making to name a few. I wish I had done this 10 years ago when problems started. Now I'm looking forward to the next 10 yrs.

You might try the CisusRx for the joint pain, it worked awsome for me. Boy !, four feet off of the waist is killer !! :lol:

But,seriously the Cissus is the ticket.:bruce2:

 

[SoMdHunter]

Well here it is 12 weeks later and there have been many changes all for the good. I'm not on Sustanon anymore and almost tapered off the deca, using just test E (seems like Ageless predicted that). Ditching the deca is hard as the joints really hurt until your body takes up production of synovial fluids again. Through trying the dosages from 200mg to 500 mg I 've found that 300mg (actually 210mg factoring out the ester) every 7 days seems to be a sweet spot for me. Test levels are between 600 and 750, Estrogen has been holding around 26 (low mid range) no zits. I don't have to take the anti E very often at that level and I am able to maintain and grow muscle. Haven't used HCG yet, there was shrinkage but at a point still comfortable it stopped.

BF has dropped noticeably and I've lost 4' on the waist. Even with Lots of cardio and a good diet I still gained 15lbs.

There are so many other areas it's helped in I can't believe it, sex, attitude, mental clarity, depression, decision making to name a few. I wish I had done this 10 years ago when problems started. Now I'm looking forward to the next 10 yrs.

All I can say is WOW! At that therapy, you will be muscled up in no time! You are where I am trying to get to! Well, I'm not really looking to add muscle per se' But if I could get my test levels where they need to be, I'll certainly take advantage of it!
Do you find it easier to do the injections now?

 

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[calibrated]

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[SoMdHunter]

LOL! 4' would be a killer I guess you knew I meant 4".

I did get some Cissus RX, how long did it take for you to start feeling it work?

I noticed Glucosamine starts working for me in about 6 weeks. But Cissus seems to takes about a month before I notice it.

 

[calibrated]

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[calibrated]

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[calibrated]

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[Hardgain]

Well, I AM a doctor, and I can tell you what is going on with this gentleman has absolutely nothing to do with "HRT".

Since when was Deca an endogenous hormone that needed to be replaced? I have yet to see a lab panel and proclaim "this guy has a Deca deficiency".

I probably have as much experience treating steroid athletes as any other doctor in the world, and I can tell you this guy's regmen IS "doing steroids".

Has this doctor given a second's thought to this patient's Lipid Profile? It's trashed by what he is doing.

I'd hazard a guess he is also elevating his risk of cancer.

So the patient now has hypertension from this "HRT", and in fact needs additional medication to treat same. Does that sound good to anyone? If that happens to one of my patients, we change things up so high blood pressure is not an issue. BTW, once hypertension is triggered, it can remain long after such "HRT" has been discontinued.

Oral agents such as anavar alter liver metabolism in untoward ways, even in absence of elevated LFT's.

Where does any of this relate to increasing health and fitness?

It's stuff like this that is going to give legitimate HRT a bad name one day when a retrospective study is done including those patients like these. The conventional medical community, served by the Drive-By Media,

It really galls me to see physicians purposefully damaging the health of their patients in order to make money.

Thanks for setting me straight. This kind of straight forward thinking by "those who know" is what we all need. :run:

calibrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardgain
You might try the CisusRx for the joint pain, it worked awsome for me. Boy !, four feet off of the waist is killer !!

But,seriously the Cissus is the ticket.

LOL! 4' would be a killer I guess you knew I meant 4".

I did get some Cissus RX, how long did it take for you to start feeling it work?

I noticed it in about 10-14 days then felt really good at the end of the bottle. Was worried that the effects would just go away so ordered another bottle which I was able to wait on taking because the noticeable improvement in my shoulders had not subsided. Later as I continued to induce stress through resistance training upon my shoulders it became necessary to use the next bottle but it has been two months now and have not had to buy more. I'm not a doctor but I promise you this does work............
:bb2:

 

[Mikey007]

Doc, this guy seems to be doing just fine on the higher doses of Test. I read alot of your post so can you tell us where the studies are that say that a high Test levels is a def. link to plaque in the arteries. His test showed that his Lipids were fine so whey not re think this a little.

 

[calibrated]

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[Mikey007]

WoW you sound just like all the other Drs. in this world. "Its your way or the highway".

Well i see your not going to offer any studies that show that elevated Test levels are directly linked to plaque in the arteries.
And it seems as if you contradict yourself by saying his lipid profiles are trashed and then you say how people with perfectly good lipid profiles are
having heart attacks!

I have been on many other boards for years so it shouldnt matter if this is my first time posting.

Perhaps you can explain the many studies that are living breathing examples of Test abuse who are not dying and have normal blood work. You would think when a Dr. is confronted with real live proof that contradicts what he has been taught he would study these areas a little harder.

Im not supporting any kind of steriod abuse but I do look at the overall picture when it comes to issues, And if you know of any studies that can help those of us understand about high Test levels and plaque build up Id be interested.

 

[Mikey007]

Christ I'm really confused!!! Somebody help me!

I started out 14 weeks ago a lactating 58 year old guy, with an expanding pod, with high BP and diagnosed with type II, mentally screwed, ready to commit suicde.

In 14 weeks I've lost significant BF, BP is great, energy is way up, I have a sex drive again,Type II symptoms are totally gone, I feel better than I have in years. NOW I'm going to have heart problems, BP problems, prolactin problems, Plaque and the dreaded Deca ****!!!!!!! On top of all that I have two Idiot doctors that have probably caused me to have CANCER and they don't don't know HRT from their ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm in serious f---kn trouble here. All from 200mg deca ew for 12 weeks 210mg test E ew and a few weeks of anavar at 20-40mg ed.

Dr John you have raised some points against my doctors and their practices which may be valid. Now don't leave this hanging. What do YOU recommend for highest T levels and Estradiol levels in older men? Give me some hope here.

Man I personally think your Dr. and your attention to your health are GREAT! It seems to me that if it aint broke dont fix it! Your bllod work is fine, your BP is fine and you feel great. There is nothing else you can do but monitor and enjoy life.

 

[calibrated]

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[Mikey007]

Thanks Bro, sorry you were called a troublemaker because of me. Bottom line I'm happy with this, if I've screwed up my health I'll still live longer and better than I would have before. After looking at the amounts of steroids some are taking year round I find it very difficult to believe that 14 weeks at those dosages is going to kill me. Stay tuned, my doctor is aware of this now and had some prettty good observations that I will post later on. Right now I would like to see how Dr. J responds to my questions on his idea of safe levels and dosages, if he does.

No problem Bro. Believe me in my years in sports and BB I have seen things that defy modern medicine. I just thought it was strange that the Dr. started bashing your Dr. as if his medical opinon was the only one! And as far as the word cycle goes, alot of people out there say that 100mg a week of Test is still doing a cycle. I think we should not be concerned with the words but rather the actions and interactions of the drugs and at what amounts and still get positive results. How in the world can a DR. look at your past profile and look at the one you have today and come to a medical conclusion that you are in an unhealthy state. I think it just comes down to EGOs and lets remember that Dr. John is not a MD so he has taken some short-cuts in his career also.

 

[calibrated]

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[calibrated]

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[Dwight Schrute]

Winning people over (educating them) is much more of a challenge.

As I tell a lot of liberal friends of mine (oh boy), some focus on the ideal while ignoring the real (stolen from Ben Franklin).

In theory your suggestion IS ideal, but the reality is that he was in no mood to be educated when you start making comments such as this:

"I think it just comes down to EGOs and lets remember that Dr. John is not a MD so he has taken some short-cuts in his career also."

Thats completely out of line with someone giving his time to help people.

Hopefully you can understand.

 

[calibrated]

As I tell a lot of liberal friends of mine (oh boy), some focus on the ideal while ignoring the real (stolen from Ben Franklin).

In theory your suggestion IS ideal, but the reality is that he was in no mood to be educated when you start making comments such as this:

"I think it just comes down to EGOs and lets remember that Dr. John is not a MD so he has taken some short-cuts in his career also."

Thats completely out of line with someone giving his time to help people.

Hopefully you can understand.

Understood.

 

[AGELESS]

Wow I just turned on my computer and heard a loud BANG!!

Nice Shot Doc "Holiday" oops, I mean Dr. John.

007 drew first (kinda like going to a gunfight with a knife) . He deserved just what he got.

Questions, opinions and disagreements to me are fine and we all will learn on this fine forum.

But "DISRESPECT" I mean downright insulting remarks are intolerable.

I suposse a shot across his "bow" might be expected from most...but in my opinion...finish it!! This bullXXXX wastes alot of time...

I guess I could say old 007 met his "Huckleberry"...LOL

I know I speak for ALL...thank you, DR JOHN - we do appreciate all the free time and expertise you spend on this forum.

 

[Jayhawkk]

No need to go back and delete all your posts Calibrated. People were here trying to help you with the information you put up which could of in turn helped others later on down the line.

 

[calibrated]

No need to go back and delete all your posts Calibrated. People were here trying to help you with the information you put up which could of in turn helped others later on down the line.

I know it may seem like a knee jerk reaction but I could see where this was going (looking for free advice) and knew if I said what I really felt it would be one way street, I enjoy this board so I bowed out of it. Simply didn't want any of it dredged up again. In the future I will help with any info I can but will avoid issues that cause territorial responses.

 

[Hardgain]

Uh ? Anybody for some CissusRX ? :run:

:icon_lol:

 

[lightheavy198]

Here you go Mikey007,
Br J Sports Med 2004;38:253-259
© 2004 BMJ Publishing Group Ltd & British Association of Sport and Exercise Medicine

Effects of androgenic-anabolic steroids on apolipoproteins and lipoprotein (a)
F Hartgens1, G Rietjens2, H A Keizer2, H Kuipers2 and B H R Wolffenbuttel3
1 Netherlands Centre for Doping Affairs, Capelle aan den IJssel, the Netherlands
2 Department of Movement Sciences, Maastricht University, Maastricht, the Netherlands
3 Department of Endocrinology, University Hospital Groningen, Groningen, the Netherlands


Correspondence to:
Dr Hartgens
University Hospital Maastricht, Department of Surgery–Outpatient Clinic Sports Medicine, PO Box 5800, 6202 AZ Maastricht, the Netherlands; [email protected]

Objectives: To investigate the effects of two different regimens of androgenic-anabolic steroid (AAS) administration on serum lipid and lipoproteins, and recovery of these variables after drug cessation, as indicators of the risk for cardiovascular disease in healthy male strength athletes.

Methods: In a non-blinded study (study 1) serum lipoproteins and lipids were assessed in 19 subjects who self administered AASs for eight or 14 weeks, and in 16 non-using volunteers. In a randomised double blind, placebo controlled design, the effects of intramuscular administration of nandrolone decanoate (200 mg/week) for eight weeks on the same variables in 16 bodybuilders were studied (study 2). Fasting serum concentrations of total cholesterol, triglycerides, HDL-cholesterol (HDL-C), HDL2-cholesterol (HDL2-C), HDL3-cholesterol (HDL3-C), apolipoprotein A1 (Apo-A1), apolipoprotein B (Apo-B), and lipoprotein (a) (Lp(a)) were determined.

Results: In study 1 AAS administration led to decreases in serum concentrations of HDL-C (from 1.08 (0.30) to 0.43 (0.22) mmol/l), HDL2-C (from 0.21 (0.18) to 0.05 (0.03) mmol/l), HDL3-C (from 0.87 (0.24) to 0.40 (0.20) mmol/l, and Apo-A1 (from 1.41 (0.27) to 0.71 (0.34) g/l), whereas Apo-B increased from 0.96 (0.13) to 1.32 (0.28) g/l. Serum Lp(a) declined from 189 (315) to 32 (63) U/l. Total cholesterol and triglycerides did not change significantly. Alterations after eight and 14 weeks of AAS administration were comparable. No changes occurred in the controls. Six weeks after AAS cessation, serum HDL-C, HDL2-C, Apo-A1, Apo-B, and Lp(a) had still not returned to baseline concentrations. Administration of AAS for 14 weeks was associated with slower recovery to pretreatment concentrations than administration for eight weeks. In study 2, nandrolone decanoate did not influence serum triglycerides, total cholesterol, HDL-C, HDL2-C, HDL3-C, Apo-A1, and Apo-B concentrations after four and eight weeks of intervention, nor six weeks after withdrawal. However, Lp(a) concentrations decreased significantly from 103 (68) to 65 (44) U/l in the nandrolone decanoate group, and in the placebo group a smaller reduction from 245 (245) to 201 (194) U/l was observed. Six weeks after the intervention period, Lp(a) concentrations had returned to baseline values in both groups.

Conclusions: Self administration of several AASs simultaneously for eight or 14 weeks produces comparable profound unfavourable effects on lipids and lipoproteins, leading to an increased atherogenic lipid profile, despite a beneficial effect on Lp(a) concentration. The changes persist after AAS withdrawal, and normalisation depends on the duration of the drug abuse. Eight weeks of administration of nandrolone decanoate does not affect lipid and lipoprotein concentrations, although it may selectively reduce Lp(a) concentrations. The effect of this on atherogenesis remains to be established.

 

[cajunbam]

Welcome, LightHeavy198, for your very first post here.

Let's first address that which you chose to bold.

While deca did not show untoward changes in lipid and lipoprotein concentrations, there are other important negative effects to consider, especially with respect to cardiovascular health.

Deca is classified as a progestin, a synthetic progesterone. That means it will carry the negative effects of progesterones for men, but also the additional ones produced by the fact it is not bioidentical. Natural progesterone relaxes arteries, but progestins are vasoconstrictors. Does anyone want to argue it is a good idea to constrict the arteries of a 58 year old, overweight, diabetic? Has anyone ever heard of anyone having a heart attack at 58 years old? It appears he tried to change his story, but it looks like Calibrated originally stated his "therapy" induced hypertension. Hmmm...

What other effects do drugs such as Deca have? They are known to promote plaque build up within the cardiovascular system. Therefore their overal efect is to decrease reverse CHOL transport.

I have seen a single injection of Deca cause long termn impotence. How does the risk/benefit ratio look now?

Deca metabolites can be detected for 18 months after a single injection. So anyone who may be tested for steroids now--or at an unexpected future date--will blow positive for steroids.

As I like to say while standing on stage in front of hundreds of my colleagues at A4M medical conventions: "If you want plaque in your arteries and wrinkles in your penis, take progesterone" (the same goes for progestins, which carry none of the positive benefits of natural progesterone, but additional negative ones).

Finally, as already stated, there is no medical indication (legal reason) to prescribe Deca for the attainment of muscle mass, in absence of legitimate Wasting Disease. Any physician who does so will be in a very tight situation should their medical files ever come under scrutiny.

Now, let's look at the rest of Calibrated's "therapy".

I have seen 30mg of Anavar trash men's Lipid Profiles. And while I appreciate the association between Lipid Profile and cardiovascular risk to be looser than most physicians do, no one would argue that elevating CHOL 60 points, while driving HDL into the tank, and skying LDL, to be a good thing. Just because it does not happen here (and the story has so many things about it which sound fishy) does not mean it does not happen to others. We must consider the population as a whole while endorsing treatments in medicine. Not an individual who may (or may not have) gotten in under the wire.

Since Calibrated deleted his original post--after having so many inconsistencies pointed out in same--I do not remember the exact dosing, but I think he was ALSO, as in, on top of all the other steroids) being given testosterone (at steroid dosages). As men go from low normal to the top of normal range, insulin sensitivity improves. But when you go much higher, it instead turns into insulin resistance. Similarly, Lipid Profile improves, as does sexual function; both reverse direction when you get to much higher.

Have I sufficiently and abundantly made my point?

You bet your a$$ you did!!! None of that crap in my "healthy" regimen!!! Thanks for your clarifying post, Dr. John.

 

[Hardgain]

Dr. John Since Calibrated deleted his original post--after having so many inconsistencies pointed out in same--I do not remember the exact dosing, but I think he was ALSO, as in, on top of all the other steroids) being given testosterone (at steroid dosages). As men go from low normal to the top of normal range, insulin sensitivity improves. But when you go much higher, it instead turns into insulin resistance. Similarly, Lipid Profile improves, as does sexual function; both reverse direction when you get to much higher.

I believe his Test portion was Sustanon at 250 mgs. per week .....?

Will Stanazol do the same damage as Anavar ?

 

[Hardgain]

Yup. IMPO, neither drug has any place in Anti-Aging Medicine.

IYHO, what protocol is an appropriate baseline anti-aging combination that is reasonable, safe and promotes energy, vitality and, for those enthusiasts who engage in our pasttime, one that optimizes LBM retention (as I notice that age seems to make one lighter and lighter as hormone downgrades) ?

 

[THETEST]

I guess I have a view on this that HRT is something where you have to make sure what problem you are addressing before jumping to Hormone drugs - for example: Eating clean foods, pleanty of water, VERY INTENSE exercise - weights especially, and SLEEP - follow that with less saturated fats and not drinking booze and see what happens to your blood tests on hormones in 3-6 months. If you are not up over 500 to 800 on free test, within a "normal" range (oh I will get flack for that) for IGF-1 200-450,(for HGH), and DHEA - 400-500 for men, then you should consider HRT - but not if you have an enlarged prostate or other problems - liver problems, etc. And even then the intent should be to place your hormones in a balanced normal level. As much as folks talk about what the negative side effects are of TOO MUCH TEST - guess what - they are there for TOO LITTLE TEST too. My point is that a Health care professional should see if it can come back naturally, or if you have an encodirine problem (spelled wrong), before going the HRT route. However, I think it is an option to explore - and it is a sloution when other alternatives have been ruled out. We could talk about what type of HGH and Test to take - the important thing is to do something about it - if you are asking about it you are likely experiencing: Depression,erectile disfunction, loss of muscle mass, anemia. weight gain, fatiegue, joint pain and bone density decreases - and loss of interest in sex. So there are reasons to look at this - in terms of the quality of life. If your test level is under 300 - the fact is that life can really suck - I have been down to 29 - and that really did suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!