[calibrated]

E O D

[calibrated]

E O D

[Cosmo Kramer]

Originally Posted by calibrated

Winning people over (educating them) is much more of a challenge.

As I tell a lot of liberal friends of mine (oh boy), some focus on the ideal while ignoring the real (stolen from Ben Franklin).

In theory your suggestion IS ideal, but the reality is that he was in no mood to be educated when you start making comments such as this:

"I think it just comes down to EGOs and lets remember that Dr. John is not a MD so he has taken some short-cuts in his career also."

Thats completely out of line with someone giving his time to help people.

Hopefully you can understand.

[calibrated]

Originally Posted by Bobo

As I tell a lot of liberal friends of mine (oh boy), some focus on the ideal while ignoring the real (stolen from Ben Franklin).

In theory your suggestion IS ideal, but the reality is that he was in no mood to be educated when you start making comments such as this:

"I think it just comes down to EGOs and lets remember that Dr. John is not a MD so he has taken some short-cuts in his career also."

Thats completely out of line with someone giving his time to help people.

Hopefully you can understand.

Understood.

[AGELESS]

Wow I just turned on my computer and heard a loud BANG!!

Nice Shot Doc "Holiday" oops, I mean Dr. John.

007 drew first (kinda like going to a gunfight with a knife) . He deserved just what he got.

Questions, opinions and disagreements to me are fine and we all will learn on this fine forum.

But "DISRESPECT" I mean downright insulting remarks are intolerable.

I suposse a shot across his "bow" might be expected from most...but in my opinion...finish it!! This bullXXXX wastes alot of time...

I guess I could say old 007 met his "Huckleberry"...LOL

I know I speak for ALL...thank you, DR JOHN - we do appreciate all the free time and expertise you spend on this forum.

[Jayhawkk]

No need to go back and delete all your posts Calibrated. People were here trying to help you with the information you put up which could of in turn helped others later on down the line.

[calibrated]

Originally Posted by Jayhawkk

No need to go back and delete all your posts Calibrated. People were here trying to help you with the information you put up which could of in turn helped others later on down the line.

I know it may seem like a knee jerk reaction but I could see where this was going (looking for free advice) and knew if I said what I really felt it would be one way street, I enjoy this board so I bowed out of it. Simply didn't want any of it dredged up again. In the future I will help with any info I can but will avoid issues that cause territorial responses.

[Hardgain]

Uh ? Anybody for some CissusRX ?

[lightheavy198]

Here you go Mikey007,
Br J Sports Med 2004;38:253-259
© 2004 BMJ Publishing Group Ltd & British Association of Sport and Exercise Medicine

Effects of androgenic-anabolic steroids on apolipoproteins and lipoprotein (a)
F Hartgens1, G Rietjens2, H A Keizer2, H Kuipers2 and B H R Wolffenbuttel3
1 Netherlands Centre for Doping Affairs, Capelle aan den IJssel, the Netherlands
2 Department of Movement Sciences, Maastricht University, Maastricht, the Netherlands
3 Department of Endocrinology, University Hospital Groningen, Groningen, the Netherlands


Correspondence to:
Dr Hartgens
University Hospital Maastricht, Department of Surgery–Outpatient Clinic Sports Medicine, PO Box 5800, 6202 AZ Maastricht, the Netherlands; fhartgens@home.nl

Objectives: To investigate the effects of two different regimens of androgenic-anabolic steroid (AAS) administration on serum lipid and lipoproteins, and recovery of these variables after drug cessation, as indicators of the risk for cardiovascular disease in healthy male strength athletes.

Methods: In a non-blinded study (study 1) serum lipoproteins and lipids were assessed in 19 subjects who self administered AASs for eight or 14 weeks, and in 16 non-using volunteers. In a randomised double blind, placebo controlled design, the effects of intramuscular administration of nandrolone decanoate (200 mg/week) for eight weeks on the same variables in 16 bodybuilders were studied (study 2). Fasting serum concentrations of total cholesterol, triglycerides, HDL-cholesterol (HDL-C), HDL2-cholesterol (HDL2-C), HDL3-cholesterol (HDL3-C), apolipoprotein A1 (Apo-A1), apolipoprotein B (Apo-B), and lipoprotein (a) (Lp(a)) were determined.

Results: In study 1 AAS administration led to decreases in serum concentrations of HDL-C (from 1.08 (0.30) to 0.43 (0.22) mmol/l), HDL2-C (from 0.21 (0.18) to 0.05 (0.03) mmol/l), HDL3-C (from 0.87 (0.24) to 0.40 (0.20) mmol/l, and Apo-A1 (from 1.41 (0.27) to 0.71 (0.34) g/l), whereas Apo-B increased from 0.96 (0.13) to 1.32 (0.28) g/l. Serum Lp(a) declined from 189 (315) to 32 (63) U/l. Total cholesterol and triglycerides did not change significantly. Alterations after eight and 14 weeks of AAS administration were comparable. No changes occurred in the controls. Six weeks after AAS cessation, serum HDL-C, HDL2-C, Apo-A1, Apo-B, and Lp(a) had still not returned to baseline concentrations. Administration of AAS for 14 weeks was associated with slower recovery to pretreatment concentrations than administration for eight weeks. In study 2, nandrolone decanoate did not influence serum triglycerides, total cholesterol, HDL-C, HDL2-C, HDL3-C, Apo-A1, and Apo-B concentrations after four and eight weeks of intervention, nor six weeks after withdrawal. However, Lp(a) concentrations decreased significantly from 103 (68) to 65 (44) U/l in the nandrolone decanoate group, and in the placebo group a smaller reduction from 245 (245) to 201 (194) U/l was observed. Six weeks after the intervention period, Lp(a) concentrations had returned to baseline values in both groups.

Conclusions: Self administration of several AASs simultaneously for eight or 14 weeks produces comparable profound unfavourable effects on lipids and lipoproteins, leading to an increased atherogenic lipid profile, despite a beneficial effect on Lp(a) concentration. The changes persist after AAS withdrawal, and normalisation depends on the duration of the drug abuse. Eight weeks of administration of nandrolone decanoate does not affect lipid and lipoprotein concentrations, although it may selectively reduce Lp(a) concentrations. The effect of this on atherogenesis remains to be established.

[cajunbam]

Originally Posted by Dr. John

Welcome, LightHeavy198, for your very first post here.

Let's first address that which you chose to bold.

While deca did not show untoward changes in lipid and lipoprotein concentrations, there are other important negative effects to consider, especially with respect to cardiovascular health.

Deca is classified as a progestin, a synthetic progesterone. That means it will carry the negative effects of progesterones for men, but also the additional ones produced by the fact it is not bioidentical. Natural progesterone relaxes arteries, but progestins are vasoconstrictors. Does anyone want to argue it is a good idea to constrict the arteries of a 58 year old, overweight, diabetic? Has anyone ever heard of anyone having a heart attack at 58 years old? It appears he tried to change his story, but it looks like Calibrated originally stated his "therapy" induced hypertension. Hmmm...

What other effects do drugs such as Deca have? They are known to promote plaque build up within the cardiovascular system. Therefore their overal efect is to decrease reverse CHOL transport.

I have seen a single injection of Deca cause long termn impotence. How does the risk/benefit ratio look now?

Deca metabolites can be detected for 18 months after a single injection. So anyone who may be tested for steroids now--or at an unexpected future date--will blow positive for steroids.

As I like to say while standing on stage in front of hundreds of my colleagues at A4M medical conventions: "If you want plaque in your arteries and wrinkles in your penis, take progesterone" (the same goes for progestins, which carry none of the positive benefits of natural progesterone, but additional negative ones).

Finally, as already stated, there is no medical indication (legal reason) to prescribe Deca for the attainment of muscle mass, in absence of legitimate Wasting Disease. Any physician who does so will be in a very tight situation should their medical files ever come under scrutiny.

Now, let's look at the rest of Calibrated's "therapy".

I have seen 30mg of Anavar trash men's Lipid Profiles. And while I appreciate the association between Lipid Profile and cardiovascular risk to be looser than most physicians do, no one would argue that elevating CHOL 60 points, while driving HDL into the tank, and skying LDL, to be a good thing. Just because it does not happen here (and the story has so many things about it which sound fishy) does not mean it does not happen to others. We must consider the population as a whole while endorsing treatments in medicine. Not an individual who may (or may not have) gotten in under the wire.

Since Calibrated deleted his original post--after having so many inconsistencies pointed out in same--I do not remember the exact dosing, but I think he was ALSO, as in, on top of all the other steroids) being given testosterone (at steroid dosages). As men go from low normal to the top of normal range, insulin sensitivity improves. But when you go much higher, it instead turns into insulin resistance. Similarly, Lipid Profile improves, as does sexual function; both reverse direction when you get to much higher.

Have I sufficiently and abundantly made my point?

You bet your a$$ you did!!! None of that crap in my "healthy" regimen!!! Thanks for your clarifying post, Dr. John.

[Hardgain]

Dr. John Since Calibrated deleted his original post--after having so many inconsistencies pointed out in same--I do not remember the exact dosing, but I think he was ALSO, as in, on top of all the other steroids) being given testosterone (at steroid dosages). As men go from low normal to the top of normal range, insulin sensitivity improves. But when you go much higher, it instead turns into insulin resistance. Similarly, Lipid Profile improves, as does sexual function; both reverse direction when you get to much higher.

I believe his Test portion was Sustanon at 250 mgs. per week .....?

Will Stanazol do the same damage as Anavar ?

[Hardgain]

Yup. IMPO, neither drug has any place in Anti-Aging Medicine.

IYHO, what protocol is an appropriate baseline anti-aging combination that is reasonable, safe and promotes energy, vitality and, for those enthusiasts who engage in our pasttime, one that optimizes LBM retention (as I notice that age seems to make one lighter and lighter as hormone downgrades) ?

[THETEST]

I guess I have a view on this that HRT is something where you have to make sure what problem you are addressing before jumping to Hormone drugs - for example: Eating clean foods, pleanty of water, VERY INTENSE exercise - weights especially, and SLEEP - follow that with less saturated fats and not drinking booze and see what happens to your blood tests on hormones in 3-6 months. If you are not up over 500 to 800 on free test, within a "normal" range (oh I will get flack for that) for IGF-1 200-450,(for HGH), and DHEA - 400-500 for men, then you should consider HRT - but not if you have an enlarged prostate or other problems - liver problems, etc. And even then the intent should be to place your hormones in a balanced normal level. As much as folks talk about what the negative side effects are of TOO MUCH TEST - guess what - they are there for TOO LITTLE TEST too. My point is that a Health care professional should see if it can come back naturally, or if you have an encodirine problem (spelled wrong), before going the HRT route. However, I think it is an option to explore - and it is a sloution when other alternatives have been ruled out. We could talk about what type of HGH and Test to take - the important thing is to do something about it - if you are asking about it you are likely experiencing: Depression,erectile disfunction, loss of muscle mass, anemia. weight gain, fatiegue, joint pain and bone density decreases - and loss of interest in sex. So there are reasons to look at this - in terms of the quality of life. If your test level is under 300 - the fact is that life can really suck - I have been down to 29 - and that really did suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!