[pappybay]

Starting HCG tomorrow. Dose rate of 500IU two times per week. Any thoughts on injection dates? My Test C injections are Sunday and Wednesday. I did read where one physician was recommending the day AFTER the injection.

[pillsRgood]

Starting HCG tomorrow. Dose rate of 500IU two times per week. Any thoughts on injection dates? My Test C injections are Sunday and Wednesday. I did read where one physician was recommending the day AFTER the injection.

Are you currently on trt without HCG? If so why add now?

[pappybay]

Are you currently on trt without HCG? If so why add now?

My doc does not agree with addition of HCG, my second doc does.....

[tilldeath]

All depends where you're at and what your looking to get from it. Are you just starting test-c cycle, midway into it, or starting post cycle?

[pappybay]

All depends where you're at and what your looking to get from it. Are you just starting test-c cycle, midway into it, or starting post cycle?

Six months in on TRT, no cycles.

[tilldeath]

Six months in on TRT, no cycles.

Should be fine @ 250 twice a week IMO, I'd dose same day as test. Get bloods as per doc request.

[j2048b]

I do hcg either the day before test shot, or the day after, mine r 250 iu 2 times a week, along with anastrozole or exemstane depending on what i have at that time


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[pappybay]

Should be fine @ 250 twice a week IMO, I'd dose same day as test. Get bloods as per doc request.

The HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - elimination halflife-time EHT is about 33 hours for intramuscular or subcutaneous injections. IF Test C is 48 hours to peak, I do not want my HCG peaking that close at 33 hrs. IF I delay 24 hours then, in theory, I have smoother Test levels (assuming 500IU's produces Test naturally). All theory but this is what I am trying.

[j2048b]

The HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - elimination halflife-time EHT is about 33 hours for intramuscular or subcutaneous injections. IF Test C is 48 hours to peak, I do not want my HCG peaking that close at 33 hrs. IF I delay 24 hours then, in theory, I have smoother Test levels (assuming 500IU's produces Test naturally). All theory but this is what I am trying.

now is this all based on bw? or just how long hcg lasts in a male upon in jection? because if someone is fatter, id think hcg would hang around a bit longer?

[pappybay]

now is this all based on bw? or just how long hcg lasts in a male upon in injection? because if someone is fatter, id think hcg would hang around a bit longer?

I did not read anything about a relationship to body weight. I know with some things like Arimidex the absorption rate can be slowed by taking with food versus on an empty stomach (3-5 hours with food versus one hour without). I am pretty sure your body's absorption rate is not impacted by body weight, otherwise it seem logical that injections would be recommended to be IM versus SC.

[j2048b]

I did not read anything about a relationship to body weight. I know with some things like Arimidex the absorption rate can be slowed by taking with food versus on an empty stomach (3-5 hours with food versus one hour without). I am pretty sure your body's absorption rate is not impacted by body weight, otherwise it seem logical that injections would be recommended to be IM versus SC.

bw= blood work, but can be construed as body weight as well, haha!
any wase, i just wonder how one figures without bloodwork, how long the hcg would taper off by? i mean one usually takes hcg a few days before pinning test, in order to give their levels a boost, thats why i usaully do mine when my test is set to taper, then do my next test shot a day or two after so it all stays pretty level, not many dips or valleys imo.

but with sc, id think the bigger u are fat wise, it would take more time for that chemical to disperse?

[pappybay]

bw= blood work, but can be construed as body weight as well, haha!
any wase, i just wonder how one figures without bloodwork, how long the hcg would taper off by? i mean one usually takes hcg a few days before pinning test, in order to give their levels a boost, thats why i usaully do mine when my test is set to taper, then do my next test shot a day or two after so it all stays pretty level, not many dips or valleys imo.

but with sc, id think the bigger u are fat wise, it would take more time for that chemical to disperse?

Sorry about the miss on BW, duh on me. I agree with your strategy 100%. If I am pinning on Wed and Sun then the Test would peak on Friday and Tuesday so maybe I need to use the HCG on Thursday and Monday.

[j2048b]

I pin mon/ thrs with test,
Hcg sunday/wed
Anastrozole 1 mlg tuesday/friday

And its awesome!


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[pappybay]

On HCG at 500 iu's twice a week. I am running labs next Wednesday. Should be interesting. Not sure I can "feel" any difference but I "think" my scrotum has dropped close to normal.

Labs will tell all....

[pillsRgood]

In for results

[RoadBlocK]

In for results

Me too.

[tilldeath]

in, debating 250ius or 400ius 2x a week atm.

[pappybay]

I may split the 1,000 iu's per week into three 333 iu injections based on the half-life of HCG.
I used 100 MG of Test C in my injection today, had been running 80. Now that I think about it that could mess up labs. The labs "should" show some "LH"?? maybe??

[pappybay]

I did not pull labs yesterday and I will hold off until next Wednesday. Bad day for me, family matters..........

Sorry guys.

[alwaysfirst]

Can somebody explain the importance with hcg during TRT? I have had TRT for about a month but haven't added the hcg yet, will the "cycle" get better with hcg or can I hold off for while?

[pappybay]

Can somebody explain the importance with hcg during TRT? I have had TRT for about a month but haven't added the hcg yet, will the "cycle" get better with hcg or can I hold off for while?

Here is the information I collected:

Some doctors are recommending using 200–500 IUs twice a week for men who are concerned about testicular size or who want to preserve fertility while on testosterone replacement. Higher doses, such as 1,000–5,000 IUs twice a week, have been used but I believe that these higher doses could cause more estrogen and DHT-related side effects, and possibly desensitize the testicles for HCG in the long term. Some doctors check estradiol levels a month after this protocol is started to determine whether the use of the estrogen receptor modulators tamoxifen (brand name: Nolvadex) or anaztrozole (brand name: Arimidex), is needed to counteract any increases in estradiol levels. High estradiol can cause breast enlargement and water retention in men but it is important at the right blood levels to maintain bone and brain health.

A very well known doctor in the field of testosterone replacement, Dr. John Crisler (allthingsmale), recommends 250 IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly testosterone cypionate injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, he reports to be shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, his patients who inject testosterone cypionate now take their HCG at 250 IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their weekly intramuscular shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (he reports that rarely more than 350 IU twice weekly dose is required).

Hope this helps. In theory you should get a test boost, and a natural scrotum position (versus drawn up) as HCG mimics LH which stimulates the leydig cells to produce Test.

I am guessing in you probably know all this...

[alwaysfirst]

Here is the information I collected:

Some doctors are recommending using 200–500 IUs twice a week for men who are concerned about testicular size or who want to preserve fertility while on testosterone replacement. Higher doses, such as 1,000–5,000 IUs twice a week, have been used but I believe that these higher doses could cause more estrogen and DHT-related side effects, and possibly desensitize the testicles for HCG in the long term. Some doctors check estradiol levels a month after this protocol is started to determine whether the use of the estrogen receptor modulators tamoxifen (brand name: Nolvadex) or anaztrozole (brand name: Arimidex), is needed to counteract any increases in estradiol levels. High estradiol can cause breast enlargement and water retention in men but it is important at the right blood levels to maintain bone and brain health.

A very well known doctor in the field of testosterone replacement, Dr. John Crisler (allthingsmale), recommends 250 IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly testosterone cypionate injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, he reports to be shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, his patients who inject testosterone cypionate now take their HCG at 250 IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their weekly intramuscular shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (he reports that rarely more than 350 IU twice weekly dose is required).

Hope this helps. In theory you should get a test boost, and a natural scrotum position (versus drawn up) as HCG mimics LH which stimulates the leydig cells to produce Test.

I am guessing in you probably know all this...

Thanks! Very good info

[pappybay]

Okay. back on track for labs tomorrow.

[pappybay]

Labs pulled on Wednesday of this week. Now we wait.....

[pillsRgood]

Updates?

[pappybay]

Sorry for the delay, results are in. The 2-13 labs are on a Wednesday after a Sunday injection of 80 mg Test Cypo (and before the Wednesday injection of 80 mg). I was also taking 2 MG of Anastrozole per week.

Lab results from 2-13-2013
Estrogen 69
Estradiol <15
DHEA Sulfate 72
LH < .2
FSH <.7
Test, Total 766
Test, Free 265.8

The 5-1 labs are on a Wednesday, same regimen as above with the addition of two HCG 500 IU injections twice per week one day after the Test cypo injection.
Lab results from 05-1-2013
Estrogen 113
Estradiol 33
DHEA Sulfate 61
LH < .2
FSH <.7
Test, Total 951
Test, Free 311.9

Conclusion:

The 500 IU's of HCG twice per week resulted in an increase in both total and free test. The increase resulting from HCG also caused a spike in Estrogen. Also note that, based on the recommendation from others on the forum, I had dropped Anastrozole from 3mg per week to 2 Mg per week. I am immediately going back to 3 MG per week and will pull labs in 3 weeks to confirm a reduction in Estrogen from 113 (may be tolerable) but want the drop in Estradiol from 33 to <15.

The addition of HCG clearly had a positive impact on scrotum size and test levels, i.e., producing naturally in addition to Test Cypo injections. I am happy with results once Estradiol is down.

I will add SHBG test next run. On 2-13 run it was 12.

Other observations?
I have been noticing some level or tiredness over that past 4 weeks which I could not attribute to any particular change. I did add 1mg of Finasteride for hair control. I stopped the 1 mg now and want to see if that has an impact. In theory, it should not impact my energy levels. I think the Estradiol results tell the story.....

Symptoms of excess estrogen in aging men include the development of breasts, having too much abdominal weight, feeling tired, suffering loss of muscle mass, and having emotional disturbances. Many of these symptoms correspond to testosterone deficiency as well.
Source: Lund BC, Bever-Stille KA, Perry PJ. Testosterone and andropause: the feasibility of testosterone replacement therapy in elderly men. Pharmacotherapy. 1999 Aug;19(8):951-6.

I hope this information helps others.

[pillsRgood]

I'm sort of supprised that lh and fsh levels remained the same. I was under the impression hcg rises lh directly and fsh indirectly... I'm gonna be starting my hcg next week, which is week 2 of my test e 14 weeker with a 4.5 week kicker of dbol at 40 mgs a day... seeing ur estro spikes confirms that I will add in aromasin earlier than I was going to at 6.25 a day starting day one of hcg...

[pappybay]

HCG will not raise FSH or LH. HCG "Mimics" LH, it does not produce LH. I was also a little surprised at the E2 level. I would definitely add some kind of AI. Feeling tired from the E2 stinks.........

[pappybay]

Man o man, I was "cranky" today. I hope it is not related to the extra test bump from the HCG and the falling E2 levels........I knew I was edgy and just stayed in my office for most of the day. Probably nothing, time will tell. I am concerned tha1 labs of 951 (should have been my low point in the week) probably related to 1,200 or maybe higher on other days......

[pappybay]

One of my DOCs expressed concern regarding my "high" Free T level (see below). I told him that was the WHOLE point of TRT and my goals. Not one word about the E1,E2 which was a BIG RED FLAG when comparing labs. Fortunately, he is not my prescribing Doc. My RBC is fine, no other markers for issues.

So, are my Free numbers really that high?

The 5-1 labs are on a Wednesday, same regimen as above with the addition of two HCG 500 IU injections twice per week one day after the Test cypo injection.
Lab results from 05-1-2013
Estrogen 113
Estradiol 33
DHEA Sulfate 61
LH < .2
FSH <.7
Test, Total 951
Test, Free 311.9