Trt plus ph

[Novice 58]

Hi all,

I am currently starting test cyp injections as prescribed by my Endo. I have been on various transdermal test products and they were not cutting it. I finally talked the doc into Switching to injections. Until I get my t levels stabilized and understood, I am not messing around with any ph supplements. I have done a few ph cycles before so i am not new to this. Was thinking id do a 4 week sd bridged into either epi or 11-oxo. I have 2 questions for anyone who has cycled phs while on trt.

I have heard that pct is not required while on trt. Would it still be necessary to have a seem on hand? Or in other words is there any risk of rebound gyno after the ph cycle is complete?

On a previous cycle of sd, I had big time lethargy. Will the test mitigate the lethargy? If not, what would be the best to manage the lethargy? Not interested in spending $$$ on androdrive. Any chance of increasing risk of gyno if I used plain old dhea?

Thanks for any replies. These are just general questions. When I figure out what I want to do, I will post up a proposed cycle stats and goals for comments.

Again, thanks

 

[lboston]

I'm interested in these same questions...so I'll bump this up!

 

[JudoJosh]

I have heard that pct is not required while on trt.

correct

Would it still be necessary to have a seem on hand?

no but an AI and/or a prolactin antogonist might be handy to have on hand depending on what designer steroid you will be using

Or in other words is there any risk of rebound gyno after the ph cycle is complete?

yes

On a previous cycle of sd, I had big time lethargy. Will the test mitigate the lethargy?

it should

If not, what would be the best to manage the lethargy?

i suppose you could try DHEA and/or preg but the test should be enough

 

[Novice 58]

If I follow correctly: there is risk of rebound gyno, but it is can be mitigated by an ai.

I guess I asked " is a serm necessary". It appears not, but gyno is still a concern. Is it a matter of preference as to an ai or serm post ph cycle? Would there be any benefit to allowing estrogen to rise post cycle while using a serm to Fight gyno? Or am I over thinking this - just schedule the end of the ph cycle to be on an injection day and roll?

Thanks for the responses.

 

[DetroitHammer]

If I follow correctly: there is risk of rebound gyno, but it is can be mitigated by an ai.

I guess I asked " is a serm necessary". It appears not, but gyno is still a concern. Is it a matter of preference as to an ai or serm post ph cycle? Would there be any benefit to allowing estrogen to rise post cycle while using a serm to Fight gyno? Or am I over thinking this - just schedule the end of the ph cycle to be on an injection day and roll?

Thanks for the responses.

Both a SERM and AI limit estrogen (E2). You would not take both a SERM and an AI. They both operate differently, so although it may be a matter of preference, it should be an informed decision after understanding the way the two operate, and even within the AIs, there are different types. Typically, a person on TRT does not need any estrogrn control. Especially if your dose is very low, like 100mgs a week. I've heard of one guy who claims to have expereinced gyno on just 100mgs per week, but I'm highly skeptical. How do you know? Get blood work after about a month and see what your levels are, like test, E2, SHB and see if you need any type of control. What I would recommend is using HCG.

I guess I'm confused; are you on TRT or a cycle? Or are you just blasting?

 

[fueledpassion]

Run TRT
SD 20/20/20
Epi 0/0/30/40/40/40
Adex or Nolva as needed
HCG 250iu's twice/week

 

[Novice 58]

I guess I'm confused; are you on TRT or a cycle? Or are you just blasting?[/QUOTE]

I have been on androgel and testim for 2 years with limited success. ( from low 200s to 400s) I threw in a couple Of ph cycles in there with some improvement in body comp. I just started test cyp injections. I am hoping to level out in the high- mid range. Just started, don't know where my maintenance dose will be.

Once i get settled, will probably do the sd- epi bridge we are discussing while I save up and hoard my test, then research and do a blast on the test when the time is right.

Regarding serm vs ai. It is my understanding that a serm will allow your estrogen levels to rise while preventing the breast tissue from developing. ( and in the non-trt case, allow natural test to recover). While an ai will reduce estrogen by preventing test from converting. True? If so, then would there be any inherent benefit in allowing my e levels to rise temporarily? Maybe Lube up the joints a little.

Or if I went with an ai, would something like erase or erase pro be enough to keep the man boobs away.

 

[vassille]

Hi all,

I am currently starting test cyp injections as prescribed by my Endo. I have been on various transdermal test products and they were not cutting it. I finally talked the doc into Switching to injections. Until I get my t levels stabilized and understood, I am not messing around with any ph supplements. I have done a few ph cycles before so i am not new to this. Was thinking id do a 4 week sd bridged into either epi or 11-oxo. I have 2 questions for anyone who has cycled phs while on trt.

I have heard that pct is not required while on trt. Would it still be necessary to have a seem on hand? Or in other words is there any risk of rebound gyno after the ph cycle is complete?

On a previous cycle of sd, I had big time lethargy. Will the test mitigate the lethargy? If not, what would be the best to manage the lethargy? Not interested in spending $$$ on androdrive. Any chance of increasing risk of gyno if I used plain old dhea?

Thanks for any replies. These are just general questions. When I figure out what I want to do, I will post up a proposed cycle stats and goals for comments.

Again, thanks

It's all good till your blood work come back with weird values because of the PHs. Besides they wreck your lipids and mess up your liver. Dont make your doctor suspicious by having off the charts blood work they will investigate if it;s bad enough.
Get some test prop is fast acting and you can use it for your bridge and it wont mess up your charts
Been doing this scheme for a long time on HRT.

 

[fueledpassion]

X

It's all good till your blood work come back with weird values because of the PHs. Besides they wreck your lipids and mess up your liver. Dont make your doctor suspicious by having off the charts blood work they will investigate if it;s bad enough.
Get some test prop is fast acting and you can use it for your bridge and it wont mess up your charts
Been doing this scheme for a long time on HRT.

Good thinking! 500-700mg of supplementary test-p, 4-6 weeks at a time would be just as effective as any PH for mass and strength, plus the added benefit of no significant water retention.

 

[vassille]

X

Good thinking! 500-700mg of supplementary test-p, 4-6 weeks at a time would be just as effective as any PH for mass and strength, plus the added benefit of no significant water retention.

That;s correct and a lot safer!

 

[Novice 58]

Agreed, blast and cruise on test is the ultimate goal. It is going to be a while until I get there. In the meantime, im thinking a sd epi run could do wonders if my base test was stable at mid high range.

I have had blood work a few weeks after a ph pct. Everything was norm- liver ,cholesterol. Only test was in the mid- low range. Not scared of one or even 2 more ph runs (done right) before I can save up extra test.

Again, thanks for all the input. Welcome anyone else to chime in.

 

[EasyEJL]

On a previous cycle of sd, I had big time lethargy. Will the test mitigate the lethargy?

this one is a big "maybe". For some people it does, yet for others it doesn't. nobody is 100% sure what causes the lethargy.

Overall the higher testosterone dose is best if you can do it, if not though some of the non-methylated products probably are less likely to cause issues. On the issue of cholesterol changes, dosing fish oil moderately high along with ursolic acid seems like it causes cholesterol to bounce back very rapidly.

 

[Novice 58]

In case anyone is interested:

The Endo put me on 200mg test cyp every 2 weeks. Did my 2nd injection on Tuesday (2 weeks after the 1st injection) and am feeling better than I have felt in a long while. Feels like I have a little pump going on during the day. Pretty good weight session yesterday and energy for cardio today. Not to mention a little better mood and focus at work. Hope it lasts. might be a little placebo, but I'll take it for now. Hope I can eventually talk the Endo into a high-med baseline and weekly shots instead of seeing a 350 On day 8 and calling it good. I have been on the low end of the t scale for so long, I wonder what level I hit today and how tht correlates to how I feel


Can't wait to see how some sd treats me with good Baseline test. It's gonna be beastly.

Thanks again those who gave advice.

 

[ambulldog]

X

Good thinking! 500-700mg of supplementary test-p, 4-6 weeks at a time would be just as effective as any PH for mass and strength, plus the added benefit of no significant water retention.

agreed

 

[Novice 58]

Don't get me wrong. I am soo down with the blast and cruise. Just need to figure out my cruise dose and then stockpile the test.

While stockpiling the test to do an effective blast, I am prolly going to hit some sd. I know what it did when my test was low and then supressed. Seems like its gonna kill with good test behind it. Then drop cals and go into an epi bridge.

 

[fueledpassion]

Do what u must my friend. Test & SD is absolutely the best combo for strength and mass ime. I like it because its as strong as it can get with minimal sides. I dont experience the SD sides when coupled with Test and many others dont as well.
While Phera was pretty good, @ 50-60mg/day it was causing alot of shortness of breath, high blood pressure and some mild bloating. None of those sides are prevalent with SD.

 

[vassille]

Is prob better to get your doc to do 150mg every week or at least do 100mg every week.
Shots every 2 weeks are nonsense regardless of the amount you do. It creates problems with estrogen and the ups and downs are ridiculous.

 

[Novice 58]

Apparently, there is some medical protocol (probably out dated) that Is based on a 2 week interval. I could not get my Endo to budge. She Seemed to be open to changing frequency of shots once we had some test results.

I don't get it. If you understand exponential decay and do the math, there is no possible benefit to stretching the interval out to 2 weeks. I will make my case again in a month when I talk to her after bloodwork.


At worst, I will do 1/2 dose at 2x freq and then adjust when it's time to do again.

Btw , got a shot of 200 mg on tues night. Was breasting big time in the gym on Friday. 385x2 at the end of my heavy bench sets. Haven't been that strong since college, I am 41 now. I am really hoping I can get the Endo on board for weekly shots and a high - mid baseline. I could very well see them being satisfied with a 400 mid way through the 2 week interval. Gonna be pissed if I can't get them to try to do better.

 

[Novice 58]

V - you say above that shots every 2 weeks can cause estrogen related issues. How does this happen? Any idea of the mechanism?

It is mid way between my 3 rd and 4 th injection (200mg every 2 weeks). I am bloated, have had bouts of pretty bad PMS ( irritability toward the end of the 2 weeks),and it may be my imagination, but I think my nipples are getting a little sensitive.

I go to give blood tomorrow. Called the Endo today to see if they would add estrogen to the blood work. Current lab sheet only has test.

Does anyone know of a legit medical reference that I can use to convince the dr to:

- test for estrogen
- reduce freq of injections to 1 week
- prescribe an ai if necessary based on testing.

Thanks for any help

 

[fueledpassion]

V - you say above that shots every 2 weeks can cause estrogen related issues. How does this happen? Any idea of the mechanism?

It is mid way between my 3 rd and 4 th injection (200mg every 2 weeks). I am bloated, have had bouts of pretty bad PMS ( irritability toward the end of the 2 weeks),and it may be my imagination, but I think my nipples are getting a little sensitive.

I go to give blood tomorrow. Called the Endo today to see if they would add estrogen to the blood work. Current lab sheet only has test.

Does anyone know of a legit medical reference that I can use to convince the dr to:

- test for estrogen
- reduce freq of injections to 1 week
- prescribe an ai if necessary based on testing.

Thanks for any help

Do your own blood test. We have a sticky here that explains how to get one for as little as $50. I've done it twice in the past...with estrogen, LH & FSH included with total serum test #.

 

[DetroitHammer]

V - you say above that shots every 2 weeks can cause estrogen related issues. How does this happen? Any idea of the mechanism?

It is mid way between my 3 rd and 4 th injection (200mg every 2 weeks). I am bloated, have had bouts of pretty bad PMS ( irritability toward the end of the 2 weeks),and it may be my imagination, but I think my nipples are getting a little sensitive.

I go to give blood tomorrow. Called the Endo today to see if they would add estrogen to the blood work. Current lab sheet only has test.

Does anyone know of a legit medical reference that I can use to convince the dr to:

- test for estrogen
- reduce freq of injections to 1 week
- prescribe an ai if necessary based on testing.

Thanks for any help

I agree with Fueledpassion and get your own blood work. That way you can get a full panel and check for everything. Also, there won’t be any surprises. You’ll know the results before the doctor.

If you try to convince your doctor how to do her job, she'll resent it. If she hasn't already understood the need for those tests, she never will. You may want to find another doctor more knowledgeable about TRT and the proper testing.

You want to increase frequencies of your injection, not decrease, correct?

 

[Novice 58]

Yes, we started injection freq at every 2 weeks. I would like to go every week. I have already been through a lot with this endo and don't want to have to switch.

I would like to inject weekly and target the mid high range. Not sure how that is going to go over. She did tell me that she would work with me once we got the initial time period over and saw how the test cyp is treating me.

I think some of the water retention was due to a salty meal on Sunday. ( I lost 5 lbs by Tuesday) so I am not as concerned about estrogen sides. I would just like to get a weekly dose that gets me between high and mid on the T scale.

And yes, if it comes to it getting my own bloodwork is a good idea.

 

[fueledpassion]

The only reason she won't give them to you every week is either one of two issues:

-Your insurance won't let them, or
-She suspects that at the test will be compounded too much due to it's half-life being 12 days but shots are given every 7 days..

You need to convince her that the average T levels will remain the same but the peaks and troughs in the serum levels will be much smaller and less likely to present moodiness, gyno, etc.

Doctors, in all of their brilliance, cannot seem to understand simple math:

100mg Test-C, 14 days later = 40mg in the system + another shot = 140mg, 14 days later = about 55mg, etc. etc. OR

50mg Test-C, 7 days later = 35mg in the system + another shot = 85mg, 7 days later = 63mg + another shot = 113mg

The standard deviation of more frequent shots is a smaller number, indicating a tighter tolerance but giving an even better result for the user. A Lean Six Sigma Black belt would have your doctor fired for that :lol:

 

[carnivore24]

that sucks your doc is adament about every 2 weeks. my endo said ideally i shoot inject every day. maybe you should look for a new doc.

one thing that would be really easy to fix this is inject yourself. you make it sound like you have them do it, but also you want to stock pile your test so you must have the vial, maybe you bring it with you? anyways i would tell them yor insurance wont cover it or your co-pay is too much or better yet if your outta pocket it just cost too much to go in every 2 weeks. even if your insurance plan covers it 100% just lie docs dont know your specific plan and dont care, their recepitionist handle that aspect. then you can inject as frequently as you like problem solved. if you following dosage you wont have higher t levels.

also estro probs are worse with every 2 weeks shots because great peaks and valleys 200mg spikes you up for the first few days (higher t and e) and then gradually tapers. every week or twice a week not as much of a peak keep e from every spiking.

one last thing be careful with SD on TRT. if you use it anytime near a blood draw. it WONT show up as higher T levels but it will ****k your cholesterol up hard core also so will tren. after blasting with tren actually never stopped through the blood draw with tren and my cholesterol was so bad my doctor told me the lab must have screwed up theres no way it could be correct..... i stop taking tren.....for a bit anyway love that posion

 

[Novice 58]

The only reason she won't give them to you every week is either one of two issues:

-Your insurance won't let them, or
-She suspects that at the test will be compounded too much due to it's half-life being 12 days but shots are given every 7 days..

You need to convince her that the average T levels will remain the same but the peaks and troughs in the serum levels will be much smaller and less likely to present moodiness, gyno, etc.

Doctors, in all of their brilliance, cannot seem to understand simple math:

100mg Test-C, 14 days later = 40mg in the system + another shot = 140mg, 14 days later = about 55mg, etc. etc. OR

50mg Test-C, 7 days later = 35mg in the system + another shot = 85mg, 7 days later = 63mg + another shot = 113mg

The standard deviation of more frequent shots is a smaller number, indicating a tighter tolerance but giving an even better result for the user. A Lean Six Sigma Black belt would have your doctor fired for that :lol:

I have read the t cyp half life was 7 or 8 days. I have run the numbers in a spreadsheet. My Endo claims half life is somewhat variable
By individual. I said then let's test me Twice, about a week apart, then we can calculate my half life and not have to guess. The concept was lost on her. I have my proposal laid out for dose and freq and am going to go at her firmly with the math and if she dosent agree, then I will ask for the medical reference she is using to dictate her decisions. If that dosent work, I'll look for a new Endo.

Insurance is a whole other issue. I have to deal with lol.

Also have to tread lightly in where I tell her I get my info. Claiming AM as a credible source of medical info kinda creates an impression I don't want her to have

 

[Novice 58]

that sucks your doc is adament about every 2 weeks. my endo said ideally i shoot inject every day. maybe you should look for a new doc.

one thing that would be really easy to fix this is inject yourself. you make it sound like you have them do it, but also you want to stock pile your test so you must have the vial, maybe you bring it with you? anyways i would tell them yor insurance wont cover it or your co-pay is too much or better yet if your outta pocket it just cost too much to go in every 2 weeks. even if your insurance plan covers it 100% just lie docs dont know your specific plan and dont care, their recepitionist handle that aspect. then you can inject as frequently as you like problem solved. if you following dosage you wont have higher t levels.

also estro probs are worse with every 2 weeks shots because great peaks and valleys 200mg spikes you up for the first few days (higher t and e) and then gradually tapers. every week or twice a week not as much of a peak keep e from every spiking.

one last thing be careful with SD on TRT. if you use it anytime near a blood draw. it WONT show up as higher T levels but it will ****k your cholesterol up hard core also so will tren. after blasting with tren actually never stopped through the blood draw with tren and my cholesterol was so bad my doctor told me the lab must have screwed up theres no way it could be correct..... i stop taking tren.....for a bit anyway love that posion

Not sure she is adamant about every 2 weeks after this initial period. Along with the math I have to show her, I have a legitimate complaint of severe PMS in the days before My shots. Actually called a female friend who knows about my sitch ( was immensely pissed at my wife at the time) to complain. She recomended chocolate and watching the notebook.

Insurance is something I have to deal with to be able to save up. Right now they only let me have 1 months worth at a time. We'll see what my new dose is after this blood draw and develop my strategy to save up accordingly.

And,

Yes. I am not touching ad or other oh until I have time between tests to let my bloods normalize.


Thanks guys for the input.

 

[carnivore24]

I have read the t cyp half life was 7 or 8 days. I have run the numbers in a spreadsheet. My Endo claims half life is somewhat variable
By individual. I said then let's test me Twice, about a week apart, then we can calculate my half life and not have to guess. The concept was lost on her. I have my proposal laid out for dose and freq and am going to go at her firmly with the math and if she dosent agree, then I will ask for the medical reference she is using to dictate her decisions. If that dosent work, I'll look for a new Endo.

Insurance is a whole other issue. I have to deal with lol.

Also have to tread lightly in where I tell her I get my info. Claiming AM as a credible source of medical info kinda creates an impression I don't want her to have

who makes you only get a month supply at a time your doc or the insurance? i know my insurance said they would do more the a month supply too. so i said ****k it and filled my script non insurance and it was 72 bucks at fred meyer. my co-pay was 10 a month so it was close to to the same price in the end. if its your doc its a whole nother ball game.

and i know the feeling about playing dumb with my doc, i dont want him to know i have any clue about steroids so when i do get a weird test he doesnt think im juicing. i asked once about maybe my estro being high because i have gyno and now have to be very careful, he sadi well.... um maybe testosterone does convert to estrogen and vice versa..... but i didnt wanna correct him.

 

[Novice 58]

Damn spell check

Ad=sd and oh=ph.

 

[Novice 58]

who makes you only get a month supply at a time your doc or the insurance? i know my insurance said they would do more the a month supply too. so i said ****k it and filled my script non insurance and it was 72 bucks at fred meyer. my co-pay was 10 a month so it was close to to the same price in the end. if its your doc its a whole nother ball game.

Insurance dictates only 1 month at a time. They give me 2 single dose 1 ml vials per month for $50

Looks like I can get a 10 ml vial of 200mg/ ml for $100 without insurance That's even easier than doing the exponential decay equation to figure out half life.

Not rocking the insurance boat yet until I see where this goes. One dumbass at a time.

 

[EasyEJL]

I have read the t cyp half life was 7 or 8 days. I have run the numbers in a spreadsheet. My Endo claims half life is somewhat variable By individual.

perhaps surprisingly, also by location injected

Also have to tread lightly in where I tell her I get my info. Claiming AM as a credible source of medical info kinda creates an impression I don't want her to have

you may find some here http://www.worldhealth.net/list/news/testosterone/

Insurance dictates only 1 month at a time. They give me 2 single dose 1 ml vials per month for $50

Looks like I can get a 10 ml vial of 200mg/ ml for $100 without insurance That's even easier than doing the exponential decay equation to figure out half life.

Not rocking the insurance boat yet until I see where this goes. One dumbass at a time.

should be even a little cheaper than that ($70ish) if you go to sams club / walmart pharmacy

 

[fueledpassion]

This is why I like Men's health Clinic's like the one in my area. No bull crap you just walk in, get your bloods done, walk out with a shot on the house and keep coming back for more weekly. They even supplement you with HCG and Arimidex on the house.

 

[lboston]

This is why I like Men's health Clinic's like the one in my area. No bull crap you just walk in, get your bloods done, walk out with a shot on the house and keep coming back for more weekly. They even supplement you with HCG and Arimidex on the house.

You happen to know of anywhere good around the Louisville/ Lexington, KY area?

 

[vassille]

Ok, I've been on test for a long time and what the docs think happens it really didnt happen to me in terms of sides.
Basically the docs thinking is that you take a shot of 200mg the testosterone levels imediately jump within 48 hours. As the testosterone jumps so is the estrogen BUT mostly if you have the afinity to convert testosterone to estrogen! Some people convert more than others. Now, your 200mg of test lasts you for 8 days tops the rest docs thinking is that estrogen will be lowered on it's own because your test levels are low too. So no test no estrogen. The problem is the theory is great but these up and downs will make you feel like crap!
So what's the alternative....take an AI. In this manner you can take test and control the estrogen but the doctor will most likely not give it to you because they think if you testosterone levels are within range you dont need an AI.

So, you back to square one where weekly shots are better because it wont shoot your testosterone too high to have estrogen problems and will keel your levels on a more level line.

 

[vassille]

I have read the t cyp half life was 7 or 8 days. I have run the numbers in a spreadsheet. My Endo claims half life is somewhat variable
By individual. I said then let's test me Twice, about a week apart, then we can calculate my half life and not have to guess. The concept was lost on her. I have my proposal laid out for dose and freq and am going to go at her firmly with the math and if she dosent agree, then I will ask for the medical reference she is using to dictate her decisions. If that dosent work, I'll look for a new Endo.

Insurance is a whole other issue. I have to deal with lol.

Also have to tread lightly in where I tell her I get my info. Claiming AM as a credible source of medical info kinda creates an impression I don't want her to have

She is right, half life is variable depending on the person's genetics and amount of mass you carry around and how your body uses the testosterone.
If you are 180lbs average man most likely you dont need a ton of test but for someone who is 250lbs you might need more!
Case and point....
For me im about 250lbs single digits bf, which im a bit of a mistery I take 150mg a week. If I take the shot on sunday by sat my test levels are 200......no lie! So, in my case I have a lot of free T which my body uses like a sponge and I hardly convert any to estrogen. Now im a rare case I suppose and there are times I cycled over a gram of test a week with little or no AI and never got gyno.
Im not advocating you do this but eveybody is different. In any case go slow IMO with the doc and let the tests show how your body metabolizes the test.
Honestly my cruising range is 300-350mg a week! I use 150 from doc and add more to it. Bottom line is that im not suppose to be this big and lean so I have to keep it higher and funny thing is that it really doesnt affect my cholesterol or other negative sides.
I hope you have a better idea now of what you have to do going forward..this stuff is not an exact science is whatever works for you

 

[Novice 58]

Update:

Got tested a week after my 3rd injection and T came back at 227.

If you assume a 7 day half life and run the numbers, I had ~260 mg of test available after the 3rd injection and one week later I tested at 227ng/dl.

I was able to convince the Endo to move me to 150mg/ week. Based on the math, I am not convinced my T levels will ever be where I want them given the amount of t cyp I suspect the Endo will prescribe. Given my response to 200/2 weeks, I project 150/ week will have my T levels cycling between 250 and 500 every week. Not ideal for someone interested in making fitness gains, but it will be better than where I was on the gels.

Btw.

I am 6'4"
270 lbs
I get pinch tested at 15-16% bf

My overall goal is to improve composition either by gaining muscle or losing fat or both. Probably prefer to be a little leaner While I am getting my trt sorted out I am going with a calorie deficit and trying to lean out a bit.

2.5 years ago I was at about 310lbs and 30% bf. I dropped 60 lbs in 6 months. At 250 I was miserable. I had lost all my strength, lost a ton of muscle and was sitting at 15% bf and unable to get any lower. Since then I have concentrated on lean gains and have managed to gain 20 lbs and maintain the same bf. bench is back up to 415 Still, have not yet been able to get leaner. I was hoping that the test would help break through that barrier. I was really disappointed to recently start putting on more midsection ( all other factors mostly constant) I was blaming it on bloat and increase in estro. So I am now taking some erase and evaluating my progress.

Still thinking when I get my lab testing schedule out to 6 months, I am going to cycle some sd with epi bridge. Previous ph cycles resulted in me
Losing gains in pct even though recommended protocol was followed. I am blaming that on not having good enough baseline test to fall back on.

First we'll see how it goes on 150mg t cyp/ week and a little erase thrown in.

I welcome any and all comments and advice. Big thanks to those who have chimed in.

 

[EasyEJL]

Update:

Got tested a week after my 3rd injection and T came back at 227.

If you assume a 7 day half life and run the numbers, I had ~260 mg of test available after the 3rd injection and one week later I tested at 227ng/dl.

I was able to convince the Endo to move me to 150mg/ week. Based on the math, I am not convinced my T levels will ever be where I want them given the amount of t cyp I suspect the Endo will prescribe. Given my response to 200/2 weeks, I project 150/ week will have my T levels cycling between 250 and 500 every week. Not ideal for someone interested in making fitness gains, but it will be better than where I was on the gels.

Your math is more or less ok, but it doesn't really work that way either. 227 a week after 200mg is low though, but i'd bet that at 150 a week after 4-5 weeks at that dose you won't see your low level be below 400, probably as high as 500.

 

[Novice 58]

Your math is more or less ok, but it doesn't really work that way either. 227 a week after 200mg is low though, but i'd bet that at 150 a week after 4-5 weeks at that dose you won't see your low level be below 400, probably as high as 500.

Can you explain your prediction?


I ran a spreadsheet with all of this. Can't post from my phone, but think about this.

One week after a 200 mg dose(plus what was remaining from previous doses) I was at 227. That means that I peaked the previous week at about 450.

It's hard for me to believe that next mon (1 week after a 150 mg dose) I can not be any higher than 227 and the compounding effects of residual t cyp plus my new weekly doses don't add up to much more than 500

Not trying to be arguementative, just trying to learn. Would be a happy mofo if I never dropped below 400

What am I missing?
Ty

 

[EasyEJL]

Can you explain your prediction?


I ran a spreadsheet with all of this. Can't post from my phone, but think about this.

One week after a 200 mg dose(plus what was remaining from previous doses) I was at 227. That means that I peaked the previous week at about 450.

It's hard for me to believe that next mon (1 week after a 150 mg dose) I can not be any higher than 227 and the compounding effects of residual t cyp plus my new weekly doses don't add up to much more than 500

Not trying to be arguementative, just trying to learn. Would be a happy mofo if I never dropped below 400

What am I missing?
Ty

well, what you are missing is that bodily processes don't just use simple math

there is virtually no way whatsoever without you having huge significant metabolic absorption issues that you peaked at 450 on 200mg. Peak is normally at least in the 800+ range, almost all of the time over 1000, probably over 1200. For 7 days after to be at 227 is definitely low, but it can be that you have high testosterone usage and conversion to DHT/Estrogen. My guess from what i've seen with others though is that the high peak causes higher conversion to dht/e2, and a lower peak has lower conversion rates. So in the end I believe you'll have more retained testosterone from the lower dose, as its closer to what normal human level is - 200 usually peaks well over top of scale of normal, 150 peaks usually inside normal.

 

[Novice 58]

So, higher peak = more conversion. More conversion could probably be modeled or thought of as a shorter half life.

Interesting. I only had one period of feeling really good over the 6 weeks/3 injections. It was after my 2nd injection. Wonder where I was then??

I hope you are right. Thanks for the response

 

[EasyEJL]

So, higher peak = more conversion. More conversion could probably be modeled or thought of as a shorter half life.

Interesting. I only had one period of feeling really good over the 6 weeks/3 injections. It was after my 2nd injection. Wonder where I was then??

I hope you are right. Thanks for the response

yeah, bodily chemistry processes are so difficult to understand and nail down precisely. I think a piece as well particularly estrogen related is that your usage of estrogen isn't as linearly related to serum levels as it is with testosterone. Doubling your testosterone level often as much as triples estrogen, and although your body is able use the higher testosterone level easily given that you are male, it doesn't mean you metabolize the higher estrogen level rapidly at all.

Particularly though in the feel/libido/mood area, the interplay of the levels of all the different hormones come into play. I've felt ok and been sexually active with a total testosterone of 11 with an e2 of 35, a total t of 260 and e2 of 65 (those #s are from memory, may be off a little). Whereas someone else with other hormone differences (dht, dhea, prolactin, etc) may have those same testosterone / estrogen levels/ratios and feel like total crap and be unable to perform sexually

 

[vassille]

Update:

Got tested a week after my 3rd injection and T came back at 227.

If you assume a 7 day half life and run the numbers, I had ~260 mg of test available after the 3rd injection and one week later I tested at 227ng/dl.

I was able to convince the Endo to move me to 150mg/ week. Based on the math, I am not convinced my T levels will ever be where I want them given the amount of t cyp I suspect the Endo will prescribe. Given my response to 200/2 weeks, I project 150/ week will have my T levels cycling between 250 and 500 every week. Not ideal for someone interested in making fitness gains, but it will be better than where I was on the gels.

Btw.

I am 6'4"
270 lbs
I get pinch tested at 15-16% bf

My overall goal is to improve composition either by gaining muscle or losing fat or both. Probably prefer to be a little leaner While I am getting my trt sorted out I am going with a calorie deficit and trying to lean out a bit.

2.5 years ago I was at about 310lbs and 30% bf. I dropped 60 lbs in 6 months. At 250 I was miserable. I had lost all my strength, lost a ton of muscle and was sitting at 15% bf and unable to get any lower. Since then I have concentrated on lean gains and have managed to gain 20 lbs and maintain the same bf. bench is back up to 415 Still, have not yet been able to get leaner. I was hoping that the test would help break through that barrier. I was really disappointed to recently start putting on more midsection ( all other factors mostly constant) I was blaming it on bloat and increase in estro. So I am now taking some erase and evaluating my progress.

Still thinking when I get my lab testing schedule out to 6 months, I am going to cycle some sd with epi bridge. Previous ph cycles resulted in me
Losing gains in pct even though recommended protocol was followed. I am blaming that on not having good enough baseline test to fall back on.

First we'll see how it goes on 150mg t cyp/ week and a little erase thrown in.

I welcome any and all comments and advice. Big thanks to those who have chimed in.

at 227 you need to take your next shot that is def low. As for the fat around mid section it is possible your E2 is high and also maybe the diet needs a look over as well.
If at 150 a week your bloat is worse than before your E2 is most likely high or you sensitive to it.
When you dropped at 250lbs how was your diet like?..protein/carbs/fat ratios
TRT is not really meant for making a whole lot of fitness gains..for that you do a cycle!
If you want TRT for fitness gains you need to drop some serious body weight IMO

 

[vassille]

Can you explain your prediction?


I ran a spreadsheet with all of this. Can't post from my phone, but think about this.

One week after a 200 mg dose(plus what was remaining from previous doses) I was at 227. That means that I peaked the previous week at about 450.

It's hard for me to believe that next mon (1 week after a 150 mg dose) I can not be any higher than 227 and the compounding effects of residual t cyp plus my new weekly doses don't add up to much more than 500

Not trying to be arguementative, just trying to learn. Would be a happy mofo if I never dropped below 400

What am I missing?
Ty

your doctor will not let you take another shot if your levels are 400 at the time when you ready for your next shot. They need to see levels at or around 250-300 because when you take a shot it will shot up to 1200 or so then slowly come down and if your starting point is higher and higher then you will venture more over 1200-1500 levels thus increasing your E2.
If you want to keep your levels around 500 then your initial shot will be more like 1500. With that you need an AI in most cases. No doctor will go for that ...a rejuv clinique will might though
Not trying to be a kill joy but you are asking too much from a regular endo.

 

[Novice 58]

at 227 you need to take your next shot that is def low. As for the fat around mid section it is possible your E2 is high and also maybe the diet needs a look over as well.
If at 150 a week your bloat is worse than before your E2 is most likely high or you sensitive to it.
When you dropped at 250lbs how was your diet like?..protein/carbs/fat ratios
TRT is not really meant for making a whole lot of fitness gains..for that you do a cycle!
If you want TRT for fitness gains you need to drop some serious body weight IMO

Yeah, the truth comes out. When I was losing the 60 lbs, my diet was as little as possible without regard to macros. Cardio 2x/ day. I would have done soooo much better if I had only supplemented with a little protien. That's why at 250 I was misrerable with not much lower bf% than I have at 270. A couple of things I know are impeding my progress. 1 my diet. It is as strict as I am willing to deal with right now. I make the conscious choice to not sacrifice some things - weekend family stuff. Running te kids around and catching their extra cirriculars means some meals out , etc. having said that. On a " regular day, I am about 2k-2.5k cals with 50/25/25 protien/carb/ fat.

The second thing that kills me is my job. 8 hrs of sitting on my ass. That's why 2x workouts/ day worked because I could put some activity on either side of the period of inactivity.

I actually lose weight on vacation be ause I keep my diet reasonable without sacrificing too much and stay active most of the day

Trt goals are to feel a little better and to see some kind of improved results from the work I am doing. As much effort as I put into the gym, I feel like my low t had been inhibiting progress. Would just like to be able to progress the way I used to. I benched 415 when my t was around 88. Just a point of reference. My goal is not necessarily to get stronger , but to improve body comp. if I work hard enough to have the same strength as I did when I played football in college, my body comp should reflect it. At 15% bf, and a reasonable calorie restricted diet, it certainly does not. Suspect the low t and elevated e as contributor to my lack of progress.

 

[Novice 58]

your doctor will not let you take another shot if your levels are 400 at the time when you ready for your next shot. They need to see levels at or around 250-300 because when you take a shot it will shot up to 1200 or so then slowly come down and if your starting point is higher and higher then you will venture more over 1200-1500 levels thus increasing your E2.
If you want to keep your levels around 500 then your initial shot will be more like 1500. With that you need an AI in most cases. No doctor will go for that ...a rejuv clinique will might though
Not trying to be a kill joy but you are asking too much from a regular endo.

Yeah, targeting the high- mid range is looking like a pipe dream. If I can just get leveled out to a reasonable mid range where I feel somewhat better and have a test base that will allow me to make fitness progress, then I will be happt