84 years old and wanting Test

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    84 years old and wanting Test


    Hi , my dad ( 84 ) and his brother ( 86 ) have asked me about test treatment. I personally am about to start my 8th cycle....but , well I really don't know where to start with these guys.
    They were farming up till a few years back, they go to the gym every second day. My dads weight is 95kgs at 5'10 , uncles weight is 80kgs at 5'8.
    What do you think? We live in Thailand, so a quick trip to the g.p isn't that straight forward.

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    At that age they really need to go to the doctor and get some advice. Chances are they are also on a myriad of pills as most people are when they get to that age. Adding test into the mix could have serious consequences.
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    Yeah, I hear you. They are pill free you know, healthy fellas. Will be nice to give them some opinions, other than my own. Thanks for the advice.
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    If they are in their mid 80s why would they want to start test? A lower dose for general well being?
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    Properly dosed testosterone can improve mood, erectile function, cholesterol, glucose management, bone density, body compostion, recovery, perfromance and a host of other health benefits.

    I would be sure to get their PSA check at the very least. Statistically speaking by that age your prostate could have issues and testosterone can accellerate the elevation of PSA leading to prostate cancer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heat Miser View Post
    Properly dosed testosterone can improve mood, erectile function, cholesterol, glucose management, bone density, body compostion, recovery, perfromance and a host of other health benefits.

    I would be sure to get their PSA check at the very least. Statistically speaking by that age your prostate could have issues and testosterone can accelerate the elevation of PSA leading to prostate cancer
    Technically and in reality PSA has only a fleeting connection with prostate cancer. PSA measures only how crowded the prostate area is at the time of the test. It's all just part of the numbers game the docs play, as they are taught to see things that way. You can have prostate cancer with a zero PSA score, and not have it with a score of over 10+. One can take supplements to lower autoimmune inflammation factors such as NFkappa B, or IL 6, and if the cause is not from cancer your PSA will drop a significant amount in a short period (less than a week). At 84 and 86 it would be remarkable if their PSA does not show elevation, and it would mean their diet includes natural anti-inflammation foods to keep the prostate smaller.

    Also estrogen dominance is far more important determinant of prostate cancer and it's growth, although (and this is my point) PSA does go up with more test, but it is quite possible that cancer rate actually goes down for the prostate with extra test. I did much exploring of this a few months ago. I repeat, PSA going up because of extra test is not a cause of cancer. The so called anti-cancer treatments that reduce test are totally ineffective. You get patients with a reduced PSA, but more cancer. Amusing?! If you are Big Pharm harvesting human fears it is amusing.

    Just take supplements that reduce the inflammation factors that cause noncancerous prostate growth and you're good.
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    Tuber, another very good reply. My PSA has ranged from 7 to 10 for 13 years and I have been thru all of the old style and new tests. In every case I came out cancer free. After two years of testing my VA docs and Urologist decided to put me ON test to make sure, among other things, that I didn't get PC. For 8 or 9 years now it has been known that high test levels correlate well with low PC The inverse is also known to be true. I just don't see that being a concern with the OP given the ages involved and the slow progression typical in PC. I question seriously the validity of this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    I question seriously the validity of this post.
    Question seriously? He mentioned their limited access to medical care. At 86 and not having any idea what his prostate looks like at this time adding any hormones without bloodwork would be questionable and irresponsible. At that age he is statiscally likely to have some issue with his clinical PSA values whether symptomatic or not. Without a baseline who knows.

    You sir on the otherhad have had a decade or more of clinically/medically supervised medical care and have had favorable results. This is not the case for these man who live in Thailand.

    I do understand and agree that today we undersatnd that elevated/clinical values of testosterone can actually promote prostate health and that estrogen is more recognized as the culprit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    Tuber, another very good reply. My PSA has ranged from 7 to 10 for 13 years and I have been thru all of the old style and new tests. In every case I came out cancer free. After two years of testing my VA docs and Urologist decided to put me ON test to make sure, among other things, that I didn't get PC. For 8 or 9 years now it has been known that high test levels correlate well with low PC The inverse is also known to be true. I just don't see that being a concern with the OP given the ages involved and the slow progression typical in PC. I question seriously the validity of this post.
    The problem is this info has not reached most docs and the general public yet, as even the research on this stuff is less than 2 decades old. Over half the cancer docs and urologists will still script anti-test pills to lower PSA, so they still do equate a lower PSA with reducing cancer and the risk of cancer.

    I was due for another blood test this year and my PSA was in the high 5's (5.8+) the year before and I figured my PSA had gotten worse, and then I decided to do this research. I was already taking lots of fish oil. but I added ZMA for the zinc, DIM, and my secret weapon Feverfew at 2 caps a day. This was all 2.5 weeks from blood tests. My PSA came out about 2.96 or a shade below 3. This is well in the normal range. This is what my research told me may happen if I just had BPH. My overall blood test came out extremely well, except my blood showed being very thin, the one bad side-affect of Feverfew. I also began to notice small bruises on my arms and other parts, so I cut the Feverfew down to one cap a day and no problems with bruising since.

    If my PSA had come out over 6, my doc would have insisted I go to a urologists for cancer tests.

    You notice I don't necessarily recommend Feverfew to others as it is a somewhat dangerous herb, and shouldn't be taken with any other blood thinning meds or strong blood thinning supplements. I need to do some more research into more subtle anti-inflammation supplements. One doesn't need to strong arm PSA like I did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heat Miser View Post
    Question seriously? He mentioned their limited access to medical care. At 86 and not having any idea what his prostate looks like at this time adding any hormones without bloodwork would be questionable and irresponsible. At that age he is statiscally likely to have some issue with his clinical PSA values whether symptomatic or not. Without a baseline who knows.

    You sir on the otherhad have had a decade or more of clinically/medically supervised medical care and have had favorable results. This is not the case for these man who live in Thailand.

    I do understand and agree that today we undersatnd that elevated/clinical values of testosterone can actually promote prostate health and that estrogen is more recognized as the culprit.
    Who pissed in your cornflakes allmighty Board Administrator?? Because I don't think he should have Test Cyp or whatever without a Doc's advice why is that wrong. I just have reservations when a young kid asks such questions because I am not yet convinced there are any 85 year old elders involved. The bottom line is that if they were to even turn out to have PC, it is so slow developing that given their ages it may well be something they should simply adress with some natural supps and avoid the terrible results and side effects of standard PC treatment. If that is so fricking bad, then I will gladly leave this board now and forever. Okay Most Important One?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    Who pissed in your cornflakes allmighty Board Administrator??
    Relax old-timing-man.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman
    Because I don't think he should have Test Cyp or whatever without a Doc's advice why is that wrong.
    Where ever did I say it was wrong? Here is what I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Heat Miser
    Properly dosed testosterone can improve mood, erectile function, cholesterol, glucose management, bone density, body composition, recovery, performance and a host of other health benefits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman
    I just have reservations when a young kid asks such questions because I am not yet convinced there are any 85 year old elders involved.
    Assumption, no? You been around a whole lot longer, multiples of decades, than everyone around here to know what that can lead to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman
    The bottom line is that if they were to even turn out to have PC, it is so slow developing that given their ages it may well be something they should simply adress with some natural supps and avoid the terrible results and side effects of standard PC treatment.
    I understand that and agree BUT you, nor do they, have no idea one way or the other. Being armed with knowledge and information trumps ignorance every day IMHO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman
    If that is so fricking bad, then I will gladly leave this board now and forever.
    Again, with the attitude. Pissed in MY cornflakes? Really? WTF?!, Are you going to threaten me to leave a message board to teach me a lesson?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman
    Okay Most Important One?
    Seriously? A little old for the name calling, no? It's like I'm talking to a 17yo know-it-all-kid.

    Everything I posted in regard to caution and awareness are entirely prudent and valid. My father is a prostate cancer survivor. I have an idea.

    Everything you posted is valid and likely more clinically accurate. I presented a perspective on the matter correct or not. An open board with an open post that you could have easily addressed and corrected without being an ******* about it.

    BTW, who is this directed at?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman
    I question seriously the validity of this post.
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    That's great feedback fellas....thanks a packet. Yeah, they were looking at low doses, not for size, but for vitality, skin density etc.
    Will get them up for some blood work....So my next question, if everything looks ok for bloods...is what's the next step ? - cycle Test e @ 100mg a week for an 8 weeker, or continued use? This is all new territory. Again, thanks for the help.
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    My question comes because over time on this and other boards, I have seen kids playing games, pulling our chains whatever to get a reply or a rise out of the guys here. This Over 35 section has been the best such board around, no games, no names, no insults. Just lots of honest and helpful info. Two guys in their mid 80s is a very extreme example. Under no condition would I condone a guy who runs test for training purposes getting involved before a doctor and a blood panel were done. Heck he really didn't give any detailed reasons for wanting test. If someone wants to consider HRT then we have a great forum adjacent to this one with some very informative stickies to bone up on. With that homework and then a doctor's visit they could decide if, what and how.

    Having spent too many years fighting with Docs over my PSA, BPH and in my youth Prostatitis, I hold the medical profession in low esteem. With their education, training and professional journals all driven by the Big Pharma/Med industries, they are ill equipped to do their best. I have watched too many friends die from cancer, too many have unnecessary PC operations, radiation and chemo all for the good of the Oncology bank accounts and not for the good of the guys needing help. Now at last there are strong voices debunking the PSA test god and advising often a course of benign neglect. Still at the age of 84/86 the likelyhood of existing PC is so strong that using HRT would probably not be a safe solution to their needs. To summarize my rambling I question the whole premise of guys that age looking for HRT, if they are in fact real. I question advising them to use HRT as valid. I question anything at that age which doesn't start with some base testing to determine what is wrong and what are the best options for such a case.

    I found your comments and attempt to turn around what I said and believe in, then and again now, insulting and got the immediate feeling that I was dealing with some young kid. I had never had that experience on this board.
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    don't start nothing with them bc on cycel cholesterol goes too high and lever is under the risk so better not do that
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    Ha, thanks Dutch...maybe I should be feeling insulted. No, I'm no kid ....late thirties. But, thanks for the giggle.....and the advice.
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    But thanks fellas. Yeah the boys are very active, old football captain,ex soldier and all that. They just want it for vitality, skin thickness etc. , not for mass So will get them tested, but by the sounds of the replies, maybe that's futile? Anyway, any more thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oceansize
    But thanks fellas. Yeah the boys are very active, old football captain,ex soldier and all that. They just want it for vitality, skin thickness etc. , not for mass So will get them tested, but by the sounds of the replies, maybe that's futile? Anyway, any more thoughts?
    let them start hgh for 12 weeks that's only things can pull them skin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oceansize View Post
    Ha, thanks Dutch...maybe I should be feeling insulted. No, I'm no kid ....late thirties. But, thanks for the giggle.....and the advice.
    Sorry Ocean I did not mean to insult you. I didn't see an age for you and worried that this was some teenybopper playing theoretical games. My answer just above is however meant in all seriousness. There are simply too many unknown factors important for the safety and success for your family to start rolling before they get the facts in. It may come down to some natural alternatives for them and things like a Creatine + Beta-Alanine combo should give your dad a boost in vitality as well as in the gym not to mention it's importance for us old farts in improving longevity and vision and fighting off Alzheimers and Parkinsons. I use/have used it for years and have lots of friends who have loved it as well. Good Luck!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oceansize View Post
    But thanks fellas. Yeah the boys are very active, old football captain,ex soldier and all that. They just want it for vitality, skin thickness etc. , not for mass So will get them tested, but by the sounds of the replies, maybe that's futile? Anyway, any more thoughts?
    There are many non-hormonal supplements to help out in these areas the guys want. For just shear extra energy high quality cordyceps mushrooms along with GPLC or even propionyl l-carnatine (GPLC adds a glycine element that makes it even better). Add Beta Alanine to that and you get a profound non-stimulant energy boost. Cordyceps is what the Sherpas use to climb high mountains without oxygen. For memory enhancement citicoline is great. Beta Alanine will help to thicken skin over time, transdermal antioxidant creams such as DMAE work quicker, but must be applied to areas that are thin skinned. High dose fish oil is excellent for mood enhancement and other health issues. Creatine will help muscle to contract harder and give more immediate strength. Just some ideas.
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    That's fantastic advice. Thank you and take care.
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    I agree with you Dutchman. I believe that the cancer industry is too big to allow for a cure. Think what our economy would be like if they found a cure for cancer tomorrow. Thousands of oncologists out of work. Entire wings of hospitals shut down. Thousands cancer researchers out of work and hundreds of research labs closed. Big Pharma stocks falling through the floor. Not to mention the problems with social security with the elderly living longer. Not just here in America but worldwide. What they are looking for is a way to control the disease. That way they can keep you on medication and in touch with your doctors for the rest of your life. The cancer cure rates have been increasing for years. I watched my sister go through the same treatments and subsequent failure that my grandmother went through in the 1950ís with the same results. I lost my sister at 52. Cancer is big business. If the NCI really cared why donít they publish more information on preventative medicine? They proved conclusively that elevated E2 levels are responsible for most hormonal cancers. It can easily be controlled via I3C. Why this information isnít made available by the NCI?
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    If they are that old ... and that healthy ... and they hit the gym every other day ...

    Why do they need test?

    If ain't broke don't fix it - they are better off right now than 99% of the men in their age range.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HondaV65 View Post
    If they are that old ... and that healthy ... and they hit the gym every other day ...

    Why do they need test?

    If ain't broke don't fix it - they are better off right now than 99% of the men in their age range.
    Simple, like all of us they want MORE! More life is a good thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    I agree with you Dutchman. I believe that the cancer industry is too big to allow for a cure. Think what our economy would be like if they found a cure for cancer tomorrow. Thousands of oncologists out of work. Entire wings of hospitals shut down. Thousands cancer researchers out of work and hundreds of research labs closed. Big Pharma stocks falling through the floor. Not to mention the problems with social security with the elderly living longer. Not just here in America but worldwide. What they are looking for is a way to control the disease. That way they can keep you on medication and in touch with your doctors for the rest of your life. The cancer cure rates have been increasing for years. I watched my sister go through the same treatments and subsequent failure that my grandmother went through in the 1950’s with the same results. I lost my sister at 52. Cancer is big business. If the NCI really cared why don’t they publish more information on preventative medicine? They proved conclusively that elevated E2 levels are responsible for most hormonal cancers. It can easily be controlled via I3C. Why this information isn’t made available by the NCI?
    There have been numerous natural cures to cancer and preventatives, and quite often who ever is the head of AMA or other doctor based "unions" attacks these and destroy the people promoting them. Cancers are different, of course, with some pancreatic and brain cancers being very aggressive and hard to stop by any means, but many respond well to various natural treatments or a combination of natural and standard treatments. Yet basic info is missing as to root causes, what enhances growth, what slows it down, and what keeps cancer from spreading to other body systems.

    Although the "harvesting" of cancer patients is big money, the harvesting of diabetics and people with blood sugar problems makes the cancer industry look puny by comparison. That's where the real money is at right now, and even greater misinformation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuberman View Post
    Simple, like all of us they want MORE! More life is a good thing.
    Well, we routinely call 17 year olds who want "MORE" idiots for using steroids - because of the damage it can do to them. I really don't see where an 84 year old man needs test - but I'm not a doctor. No way in hell I'd do this for my dad unless the doctor said it was a good idea.

    By the way - I have to say that Dutchman was spot on in his analysis of this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HondaV65 View Post
    Well, we routinely call 17 year olds who want "MORE" idiots for using steroids - because of the damage it can do to them. I really don't see where an 84 year old man needs test - but I'm not a doctor. No way in hell I'd do this for my dad unless the doctor said it was a good idea.

    By the way - I have to say that Dutchman was spot on in his analysis of this.
    Have you actually read the whole thread? I gave a long list of non-hormonal advice for the old guys. How to do all the things they need without test, and even better than using test. You read "selectively" totally ignoring peoples posts in the process.
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    "Although the "harvesting" of cancer patients is big money, the harvesting of diabetics and people with blood sugar problems makes the cancer industry look puny by comparison. That's where the real money is at right now, and even greater misinformation."


    Agreed, they have diabetics, parkinson patients and others right were they want them, on medication the rest of their lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBB
    "Although the "harvesting" of cancer patients is big money, the harvesting of diabetics and people with blood sugar problems makes the cancer industry look puny by comparison. That's where the real money is at right now, and even greater misinformation."

    Agreed, they have diabetics, parkinson patients and others right were they want them, on medication the rest of their lives.
    As well as people being diagnosed with mental health problems, such as ADD/ADHD, depression, anxiety, bi-polar, or any other acronym I have heard from my wifes therapist...like NTD, negative thought disorder, WTF??? Yes, this person really said something like that, I may be missing one letter/word.

    Watch the movie "Forks Over Knives", the western civilization diet is what is contributing to disease, cancer, diabetes, obesity, and yes the people are being put on medication at an alarming rate! Change the way you eat and you (and only you) can change your health the most SIMPLEST way that pharmaceutical companies don't want you to know, it is very sad because truly it really boils down greed.
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    This is a great thread and some excellent advice, Dutch, sounds like you have really figured it out. My two cents, they are in their 80's and sound to be pretty healthy. Replacement dose could do wonders for them. I am sure they are not looking to become bodybuilders but the the benefits of improved mood, bone density, mental function, libido, and not to forget the prevention of muscle loss.
  

  
 

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