Moved: Test E for low test (doctor ordered)

[jeffh3c]

[h=2]Test Ethanate for TRT(doctor ordered)[/h]

Ok. I have't started the test E yet, but I am here for help. I hate the people who don't research just like the next guy. I have done some PH's in the past and I am not a newbie. That said, the real stuff IS new to me. Also I don't have alot of weeks, etc to research, as I will be starting this next week. Apparently my test is low (118) and the doctor will be starting me on Test Ethanate 1x/wk. I don't know the dosage, but I know he will be taking blood work after 1 month and adjust dose. They said they want to see at least 500. (me too, no wonder I am feeling the way I do).

1- I want to make sure my test is low next time I get blood drawn after the month. 500 doesnt seem all that great to me, and I understand that this will be my dosage for awhile as a TRT program. I would prefer it to read low and be in the 800 range or better.

2- I was transitioning to trying to do more cardio and was working on Stronglifts 5x5 and 3x5 program. Would those be reasonable while transitioning back to a higher test level? Should I increase volume to something else in particular?

3- I know the doctor is following this mainly for test levels, but I want to get as much out of this as I can. Would you run some (expired 2 yrs) PH's along with this or just run the test e.

To be clear, this is doctor ordered. I normally do research myself, but time is very short on this one and I am not current on today's PHs and never was "up" on the real gear. I appreciate the help. Not looking for hardcore gains - just glad to fianlly figure our why nothing seemed to work. I want to maximize the effectiveness of all of this positive and negative news.

I know everyne wants to see these partially to approve if someone should be on AAS. In my case, doctor says so so that's that; but here it is for pure interest sake.

Eating 1800-2300kcal
Age 35
BF% 32
Weight 204
Experience. 10-15 years, but never more than 2 years at a time. Most recently has been 1-3 w/o per week and 2 runs per week.
Diet: could be better, but I am working on it

Original Post

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/old-school-hormone/180158-test-ethanate-trt.html#post2951451

​

 

[bad rad]

Did your MD check your LH/FSH and estrogen levels? I ask because your BF is 32%, more than high enough to be obesity induced hypogonadism or low test levels. HRT is a great option BUT if your low T levels are from high aromatase levels due to BF% there are easier ways to fix it. There is a study on obesity induced hypogonadal men that took 2.5mg(1 pill) of Letrozole weekly and were back in range within 6 weeks. Personally if I could get my HPTA fixed I would, in my case my testes don't respond adequately to LH/FSH and it leaves me with low test.

 

[jeffh3c]

Bad Rad,
I will ask about this. He didn't say anything about having checked this, but he often checks stuff and doesn't SPECIFICALLT discuss stuff if it is normal. I will ask. I have seemed to have a more than normal level of difficulty lately with workouts, fat loss (despite exercise and diet) etc so I think there may be something to the low T. I will ask though.

 

[bad rad]

Having low testosterone will give you all the problems you mentioned but it's better to treat the cause not the symptoms. If your HPTA is functioning correctly but inhibited due to high estrogen that can be fixed. I'm not saying HRT isn't awesome, it can be but if HRT only masked another problem it really isn't the answer IMHO. When my HTPA finally failed I was about where you are, test level of 109, I added an aromatase inhibitor and started getting "better" fairly quickly. I still had low levels but it normalized my ratios of T:E.

 

[Glycomann]

I would just do what the doc has set up for you. on second thought I would add a little bit of aromatase inhibitor b/c it sounds like you might be a bit estrogen dominant. Fat ells have a lot of aromatase and your test is probably going to convert to estrogen a a pretty unfortunate rate. That will make you feel like crap, hold water and grow tits. When I was on TRT 200 mg of test a week with a little AI had me at 1300 ng/dl so up a little over the top of the normal range. I felt great on that dose. Problem is we all want to tinker to make things even better. FWIW my favorite protocol now is


test C 100-300 mg/w
NPP 100-300 mg/w
GHRP-2 or -6 200 ug 5x a week
hCG 250 iu EOD

Some times I would add in 30 mg per day of an anavar/winstrol mix. I never go over 800mg of total AAS/w. I'll be 50 this year and my nati test still runs in the 500 to 600 ng/dl region. To get the TRT script I sort of scammed it and used a little anavar for a couple weeks before I got tested. I tested at 260 ng/dl and my LH was low normal at the time. Just be careful and if you're going to TRT keep things at 200 mg/w or less most of the time and just blast for 8 weeks at a time and only a couple times a year. Otherwise things can get complicated. RBCs go up to high predisposing you to stroke. BP gets high endangering kidneys and other organs. Blood lipids can get out of whack. Jut be careful and reasonable and TRT can be a Godsend. Abuse it and you can get yourself into a vicious cycle that is not so great for your health.

 

[jeffh3c]

Ok. My phone call is going out tomorow to doc to follow up on what if I want to proceed. I have been reading on HcG and it seems referenced in respect to shutdown. Maybe I am looking at this a little too literally, but I had a vasectomy years ago, so production of certain things aren't really a concern. Does this factor in, or is there another reason I should push for this?

I am going to ask about the above tests and estrogen or an AI. (looks like aromidex is what most people use).

Thanks for the advice from all. Again, I am not one to just post, but I dont have the timeframe it seems. I am researching as I write this, but I would rather have too much info and ask doc the right questions than f things up.

 

[The Matrix]

Ok. My phone call is going out tomorrow to doc to follow up on what if I want to proceed. I have been reading on HcG and it seems referenced in respect to shutdown. Maybe I am looking at this a little too literally, but I had a vasectomy years ago, so production of certain things aren't really a concern. Does this factor in, or is there another reason I should push for this?

I am going to ask about the above tests and estrogen or an AI. (looks like aromidex is what most people use).

Thanks for the advice from all. Again, I am not one to just post, but I dont have the timeframe it seems. I am researching as I write this, but I would rather have too much info and ask doc the right questions than f things up.

You guys are giving more steroid dosage then HRT.
NPP and anavar is not used in medical HRT unless you dealing with MAximus HRT which is just a way to "legally" prescribe steroids.

One should not set a number in stone because every one's body is different, but look to see how the person response. It also depends on when the blood is taken in relationship to the shot.
You never start out with a blast of hcg, T, AI this is a huge flag the guy has no clue what he is doing.
The average dosage starting out is 100 mgs per week which can be broken up into 2 50 mgs shots (m,th) used with 29 gauge 1/2 in needle.
After 5 weeks labs should be drawn with out an AI so you can identify what the level of test is from the shot and no other variables. If you get symptoms of high e2 it may be just the body getting used to the higher T levels. With bodyfat of 32% you need to find out why. The thyroid and adrenal also have to be properly evaluated other wise going on HRT may make these issues worse resulting in you never dropping any weight.

 

[jeffh3c]

Just got back from doc's office. Initial plan is 200mg per week 1x/wk. Numbers were 116 not 118. Dont remember the other numbers, but he said they were within range. Seemed "in a hurry" today vs normal, and office did seem genuinely busy. Going back in 1 mo to recheck. Target is "aprox" 800-900 but at least 500. Ok, vague, but a score better than 116! They said 3 weeks to feel difference. Hopefully sooner, but we'll see. Labs in 1 month. My crappy insurance wont pay so it'll be like 88 per 5ml. If it makes me feel better and puts me back in range, fine. Anyway, I promised an update and there it is. I will keep this thread updated. Any other helpful info still appreciated in meantime. I am going the doc's route for now. I am not opposed to elevating the figure after all is stable, but will stay on plan to the letter for now at least...

 

[kanakafarian]

Just got back from doc's office. Initial plan is 200mg per week 1x/wk. Numbers were 116 not 118. Dont remember the other numbers, but he said they were within range. Seemed "in a hurry" today vs normal, and office did seem genuinely busy. Going back in 1 mo to recheck. Target is "aprox" 800-900 but at least 500. Ok, vague, but a score better than 116! They said 3 weeks to feel difference. Hopefully sooner, but we'll see. Labs in 1 month. My crappy insurance wont pay so it'll be like 88 per 5ml. If it makes me feel better and puts me back in range, fine. Anyway, I promised an update and there it is. I will keep this thread updated. Any other helpful info still appreciated in meantime. I am going the doc's route for now. I am not opposed to elevating the figure after all is stable, but will stay on plan to the letter for now at least...

Dang, that's $17.60/ml?! You'd be better off just getting your own stuff!

 

[jeffh3c]

Dang, that's $17.60/ml?! You'd be better off just getting your own stuff!

Not quite sure how to go elsewhere to get it legally... (Mod's note that i'm not sourcing I have a source, albeit expensive) but seriously, how does one get pharma grade stuff you have script for without the "paper" script (he will only call in script to pharmacy). True though, kind of steep.

 

[jeffh3c]

I am already on this course of treatment now, but I have a few additional questions. I have researched this board and others. Actually spending a few hours a day looking up (sometimes conflicting) information. It looks like TRT is
pretty much a +long-term+ thing and not a "bump it up and hope it stays up(correct?), but I have a few questions.

1 - how long until improvements are noticed ON AVERAGE. I have seen several people post about 3 weeks, is this correct on average(real experience appreciated)?
edit: answered - about 3 weeks.

2- I have seen people report their test drop further before it goes up. After 1 month (first test) can I expect to see a rise in my figure, or is that a point where it is still likely a negligible improvement numbers -wise?

haven't found a GOOD source on this. any additional feeedback?

3- With my figure being 116, I think there is no question it was low test; but is it possible that is would be low(no manipulation) from anything else temporarily? i.e. cold, fatigue, etc. or would that be more of a minor change that would not explain that low of a result.

edit: disregard. low test is low test. If may have been effected to some degree but at 116 it appears that there isnot much I can do other than TRT as my other labs are in normal parameters.

4- I have heard that TRT shuts down what remaining T production you have. How long until this starts in case I change my mind after week 4. At what point is is difficult to transition back.

Edit: my research says reductions in natural test about week 2 with increased shutdown at 4. Not much to shut down apparently, but I was just curious.
I did order the book The Testosterone Syndrome to try to educate myself on the condition. The above are some nagging questions I have had though.

Leaving this up as someone else may have these questions and this may help them.

 

[jeffh3c]

Update on my week 1 Feeling VERY tired/low energy at 6 days in, worse than before starting!

 

[EasyEJL]

Not quite sure how to go elsewhere to get it legally... (Mod's note that i'm not sourcing I have a source, albeit expensive) but seriously, how does one get pharma grade stuff you have script for without the "paper" script (he will only call in script to pharmacy). True though, kind of steep.

Have him call it in to Walmart pharmacy then. Its $70ish for 10ml

 

[jeffh3c]

Well week 1 has seen the following:
initially, I actually felt MUCH MORE fatigued... a continuation of the low T effects I guess. Last night (late evening day 5) I felt like someone heightened my senses/alertness and my energy was through the roof. This morning I felt an increased sex drive and improved energy and mood too (though not the energy like 1130pm last night). Doc office said no benefits likely until week 3. The benefits aren't night and day on energy, but they are on sex-drive. My nuts are kinda sore - not hurting but sore. Now can someone give my wife something so SHE has the increased libido

Really glad I did this. Looking forward to to shot tomorrow as it has really improved how I feel. I just hope he keeps me on this dose, as it seems to be doing the job.

Finny thing is that I never even asked for this. Doc found low t on his own during cholesterol check. Because someone took an extra step, my life seems to be on an upswing. When everything sucks all the time, I guess you get used to it after awhile. When it gets good again, you really see how bad it was before.

 

[jeffh3c]

I know this question is vague, but I am hoping someone else can chime in. *How are dosages calculated. I mean do they say that 200mg should bump you up on average 600 points on TT, and 100 would bump you X? Just curious what to expect in TT rise*

Personal experience so far: I am really able to tell the difference, and I am surprised it has been so quick (just took second injection this AM @ 200mg Test e. Guess this speaks to depressed T level before... Anyway, energy up, mood up, sex drive way up.

But again, What do most people see their levels at after 1 month on 200mg. (started 116) I heave searched and only a few reports of 200mg bringing up to 800 in once case and 1200 in another.

Thanks for feedback.

 

[jeffh3c]

Answer to my own question (any maybe someone else too)

"...to receive monthly
injections of a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone
(GnRH) agonist, to suppress endogenous testosterone secretion, and weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg of
testosterone enanthate for 20 wk"

"Hormone levels. Serum total and free testosterone
levels (Table 2), measured during week 16, 1 wk after
the previous injection, were linearly dependent on the
testosterone dose (P 5 0.0001). Serum total and free
testosterone concentrations decreased from baseline in
men receiving the 25- and 50-mg doses and increased
at 300- and 600-mg doses. Serum LH levels were suppressed in all groups."(Bhasin et al, 2001)

The article states test levels taken 1 week after weekly injection.


Table 2. Serum total and free testosterone, LH, FSH,
SHBG, and IGF-I levels
Testosterone
Dose Baseline Week 16
Change from
Baseline
P vs. Zero
Change
Testosterone (ng/dl) (overall ANOVA P 5 0.0001)
Dose Base TT Week 16 Net Change
25 mg 5936+-48 253+-66 -234+-85 0.0029
50 mg 5666+-78 306+-65 -226+-64 0.0037
125 mg 5536+-53 570+-67 +576+-75 0.7425
300 mg 6536+-50 1,345+-139 +691+-143 0.0005

Chart modified to more easily read here, data unchanged.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11701431?dopt=Abstract
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172.full.pdf+html

 

[EasyEJL]

keep in mind, those levels are the day before next injection (or the day of next injection before its done, a little hard to be sure). So those are the LOW numbers for those doses, and somewhere between 50% and 70% of what the peak is. so conceivably the 125/wk dose could peak at over 1100, and the 300 at 2700.

 

[jeffh3c]

Just read The testosterone symdrome (well most of it). Seems that my feeling like crap the few day after my initial injection aren't in my head. The book talks of the initial spike in T and the body aromatizing it, then a return to more normal levels and therefore less aromatizing. My high BF is both a symptom of low T and high E and a cause OF low T and E. Talk about a catch 22... It seems to make sense to be on an AI to me. I'm not sure now is the time to ask though, as I am supposed to go back in 1 month for labs. I am curious how I ask then as well without raising red flags of testosterone plus AI's (if anyone wonders why this is a red flag, then it isn't...nevermind )

Anyway, I want to try the first month first, but from what I have seen in research, many doc's see AI for this as off-label use. Thoughts?

 

[EasyEJL]

That is true of urologists, less true with endocrinologists.

 

[jeffh3c]

Restatement: I will be getting labs done by physician after 1 month. He's a great doc, but doesn't seem to give the numbers and won't just copy the labs. If I ask for something specific he will sometimes give me number (like TT 116) but normally just says it looks fine.

That said, I am wanting to get some labs for myself so I have some numbers to check myself to doublecheck the doc is on task when the time comes. Not planning on sharing these with hum, these are for me and will post here (he might be offended that I did independently). So would labs after 2 weeks on TRT be of help or am I wasting 50 bucks. I chose the female hormone panel at privatemd per another site suggestion (T natn). This might help to point out if the E is getting high and though saturation with Test is far from occurring, it will tell me that I am moving in the right direction and the right pace. Doing this as I am finding out how many otherwise good md's arent checking the right stuff on TRT...

Planing on going tomorrow while I am in town. They use Lab corpse.

P.S. Any advice on ordering own labs through Quest, I heard they are better...

 

[jeffh3c]

I just realized that the original thread is still there as well as this one (the moved one). I posted an update on the other thread, and will do so here in case someone doesnt look elsewhere. (Any way to merge these?)

Labs back today

e2=91.8
FSH=.2 range 1.5-12.4
LH= <.2 range 1.7-8.6
test(serum) 966

 

[Glycomann]

You guys are giving more steroid dosage then HRT.
NPP and anavar is not used in medical HRT unless you dealing with MAximus HRT which is just a way to "legally" prescribe steroids.

One should not set a number in stone because every one's body is different, but look to see how the person response. It also depends on when the blood is taken in relationship to the shot.
You never start out with a blast of hcg, T, AI this is a huge flag the guy has no clue what he is doing.
The average dosage starting out is 100 mgs per week which can be broken up into 2 50 mgs shots (m,th) used with 29 gauge 1/2 in needle.
After 5 weeks labs should be drawn with out an AI so you can identify what the level of test is from the shot and no other variables. If you get symptoms of high e2 it may be just the body getting used to the higher T levels. With bodyfat of 32% you need to find out why. The thyroid and adrenal also have to be properly evaluated other wise going on HRT may make these issues worse resulting in you never dropping any weight.

Yes this should all be done through a medical doctor and with blood work and examination. I have arived at my protocol trough a fair amount of experience. You don't know anyone on these boards so what I say coule be BS but that goes for everyone. I'm 50 and my health is excellent so what I have done over the years seems to be a good approach. My endocrine system still recovers and I am still strong and fit with good EKG and stress test etc.

 

[Rolln]

Good point Bad rad! I am 37 and I do have HYPOThyroidism, however I have just began a Test E cycle, low dosages of course 200mg/wk 100mg taken once every 3 days and taking in 0.25mg of Arimedex every day! I can't get a hold of Aromasin
I am currently on T4 and T3 supplementation to augment and regulate my Thyroid levels. With that in mind I am thinking of doing the CKD diet, what do you think? I need to shed a lots of fat in a short time.

Currently 5'10, 180lbs, with 15% bodyfat! I know my bodyfat surely is from high aromatase levels so I know that Arimedex should work on this. Do you think I should bump this 0.5mg every day?

Also what is a good site to order stuff from where it will get delivered to an APO?

Many thanks!

 

[kingdong]

Good point Bad rad! I am 37 and I do have HYPOThyroidism, however I have just began a Test E cycle, low dosages of course 200mg/wk 100mg taken once every 3 days and taking in 0.25mg of Arimedex every day! I can't get a hold of Aromasin
I am currently on T4 and T3 supplementation to augment and regulate my Thyroid levels. With that in mind I am thinking of doing the CKD diet, what do you think? I need to shed a lots of fat in a short time.

Currently 5'10, 180lbs, with 15% bodyfat! I know my bodyfat surely is from high aromatase levels so I know that Arimedex should work on this. Do you think I should bump this 0.5mg every day?

Also what is a good site to order stuff from where it will get delivered to an APO?

Many thanks!

Bump