44, can i get off TRT using HCG / Tamox?
- 03-21-2011, 01:17 PM
44, can i get off TRT using HCG / Tamox?
Just wondering how successful this is? Right now i am half way through a cycle of Forged Lean Mass and i take 100cc Test Cyp weekly. I have the PCT on hand but since going on TRT a year ago i have been doing cycles with a blast and cruise mentality. Other than the cortisol issues the cycles i have done have been fairly successful and i attribute this to the TRT i have been on throughout this foray. I have done about 3 PH's cycles and one blast and cruise / straight test. The one time i followed an Alpha 1 cycle with 11-Sterone i did have less fat build up and have 2 bottles of this to start soon.
So that is a little background but my question is... does anyone have experience with the HCG / tamox protocol in getting off of TRT and can jump starting your own HPTA even be a hope at this point?
- 03-21-2011, 01:49 PM
Nobody can answer for sure as to whether it will work for you or not. was your LH + FSH normal even though your testosterone was low when your doctor first prescribed TRT?
- 03-21-2011, 02:46 PM
I'm pretty sure he knew little more on hormone therapy then i did at the time. He only had me tested for total t. I just recently went to another doctor out of network and had blood testing LH, est, free t and i think LSH. I have to book the follow up appointment, as they won't release the results over the phone... expensive but yes i know needed information.Thanks EJL, i'll post the results back.
03-21-2011, 02:50 PM
Yeah, the problem is I can guess that LH + FSH will be near 0 having having been on TRT for a year already. Well, its possible that the HCG/tamox would work (although i'd say HCG/clomid is more likely) but its also quite possible it wont. As much as it may suck to hear (and will suck worse feeling wise) would be to try one of the restart protocols and even if it doesn't work stay off TRT for 3-4 months after to see what as best you can real baseline levels are of the other hormones. If LH is low it may be that just long term HCG therapy could work rather than needing testosterone shots. The plus to it is that it would keep the testosterone release pattern normal.
03-21-2011, 04:04 PM
I have read in this article by Anthony Roberts that Clomid is not suggested and HCG, Nolva, Aromasin Vitamin E is the way to go for PCT.I have found little on the topic of using HCG for purposes of coming off of TRT however and using Clomid for this purpose may make sense. The only direct article i have found is this protocol by Dr. Shippen.Why don’t we use Clomid, another SERM? Well, basically because it takes much more to do the same thing. In comparison, it would require 150mgs of Clomid to accomplish that type of elevation in testosterone, but Nolvadex also has the added benefit of significantly increasing the LH (Leutenizing Hormone) response to LHRH (LH-releasing hormone) (6). This most likely indicates some kind of upregulation of the LH-receptors due to the anti-estrogenic effect Nolvadex has at the pituitary. Although both Nolvadex and Clomid are both SERMs, they are actually quite different. As you already know, Nolvadex is highly anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary, while Clomid exhibits weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary (7), which as you can guess, is less than ideal. It should be avoided for the PCT I’m suggesting…and in fact, avoided in general…it’s simply not as good as Nolvadex.
sorry i can't post links yet
There seems to be one common theme as of late with HCg protocol and that is to keep the doses of HCG lower than 500 iu, i had initially read several posts of people running 2000iu and apparently this can further suppress the system. I will be visiting the doc on the 30th to get my results. I was tested 2x. The first blood work at the end of a epi / Methyl 1-D cycle (also on the 200mg of test cyp 2x month). The second a ZRT saliva test 1 month after that cycle. I had used liquid clomid at 600 day1, 300 day 2thru 16 and 50mgs day 16 to 30. I also ran no test cyp for that 30 day period. Libido was good at the end of the epi cycle but after 3 weeks of no cyp i couldn't get the snake to stop starring at the floor
This will hopefully be closer to baseline although i was still taking testofen hoping that would help with recovery... my guess is that with no total test the testofen had no way of helping in the free test dept.
03-21-2011, 04:08 PM
One thing to be cautious of with any of those articles is how old they are. Although I don't pay much attention to what anthony roberts EVER says, even his opinions have changed over time. So if that is a 4 year old article (or repost from a 4 year old one) his position may not be the same anymore.
03-21-2011, 04:19 PM
good advice and noted, i'm new to all of this and just the sheer amount of information has been mind numbing. Still the most baffling and frustrating part to this is the real lack of knowledge that doctors have in this area. Even the new doctor i am going to who says he specializes in hormone therapy seems to know little compared to anyone who has ever posted publicly on the topic. I mean really all i feel he is giving me is the opportunity for more test therapy and the results of my blood work. Isn't the ZRT kit along with test results available through a website for less than $60? It cost me $150 through the doc.
03-21-2011, 05:58 PM
Well 2 things there. First since zrt uses just saliva or blood spot its accuracy is questionable. As far as the doctor vs people on the internet, keep in mind people on the web will recommend something if its got a .00001 chance of working. But unless you are talking about something immediately life threatening, a doctor won't recommend anything with less than maybe an 80% chance of working, at least not till the 80% chance things have been tried
03-21-2011, 06:16 PM
try Triptorelin at 100 mcg w/ 2 ml of BW intramuscular - It's a once dose PCT - supposed to put the boys into over drive right away. If i ever go off TRT i'm going to try it. My last PCT with Clomid and Nolva was pathetic!
03-22-2011, 09:52 AM
He suggested blood work and the ZRT because he said the results are often different enough that he likes to average between the two. But he also made it sound like he trusted saliva testing a little more than blood work. I will research the Triptorelin, thanks leanbody.
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