Interesting Study

[BBB]

Apparently lower both aromatase and estrogen at the same time is bad for the prostate. Just when I thought I had things figured out.

Effect of dual inhibition of 5-alpha-reductase and aromatase on spontaneously developed canine prostatic hypertrophy.
Suzuki K, Okazaki H, Ono Y, Kurokawa K, Suzuki T, Onuma E, Takanashi H, Mamiya Y, Yamanaka H.

Department of Urology, Gunma University School of Medicine, Maebashi, Japan. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Our aim was to assess the effect of dual inhibition of 5-alpha-reductase and aromatase on prostate glands. METHODS: We investigated the morphological changes in the prostate gland and the changes in the hormonal environment after administration of finasteride and arimidex to intact canine specimens. The study consisted of four groups: a 5-alpha-reductase only group (5RI only, n = 5); a 5RI plus aromatase-inhibitor combination group (5RI + ARI combination, n = 5); a BPH control group (n = 3); and a castration control group (n = 3). Finasteride (1 mg/kg/day) and the same dose of arimidex were orally administered for 80 days. RESULTS: In the 5RI group, a significant decrease in the serum dihydrotestosterone (DHT) level was found, and prostatic volume was significantly decreased. However, significant increases in serum testosterone (T) and DHT levels were observed, with a concomitant increase in prostatic volume in the 5RI + ARI combination group. Morphometric analysis showed that histopathological findings in the 5RI + ARI combination group were similar to those in the BPH control group. CONCLUSIONS: Dual inhibition of 5-alpha-reductase and aromatase resulted in a significant increase in prostate volume, accompanied by a 3-10-fold increase in serum testosterone levels and a significant increase in testicular volume.

PMID: 9759700 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[superone]

Well this is just great, as I wanted to run low dose Testosterone with Propecia and low dose Arimidex. Looks that that doesn't seem to be a good idea??!!

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

So have they come to a conclusion that it's DHT or estrogen that causes BHP. Or both?

 

[Nitrox]

So have they come to a conclusion that it's DHT or estrogen that causes BHP. Or both?

I don't think you can come to a clear conclusion on this study alone, however this would suggest that DHT is the primary culprit.

significant increases in serum testosterone (T) and DHT levels were observed, with a concomitant increase in prostatic volume in the 5RI + ARI combination group [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I think that all you can take from this is that Adex is contraindicated when taking Finasteride to control BPH. This could be a problem with too much estrogen reduction (i.e. leaving more T to be converted through the DHT pathway despite the presence of 5-aa). It could also be an interaction with Adex itself.

 

[superone]

Yes but increased prostate volume doesn't mean that it will increase prostate cancer or PSA?


DHT in the presence of optimal Testosterone and optimal Estrogen levels cant cause BPH or prostate cancer or else every teenager and guy in his early 20's would have it.

 

[Nitrox]

Yes but prostate volume doesn't mean that it will increase prostate cancer or PSA?

Correct but while BPH is well, benign, and accordingly not nearly as severe as prostate cancer, it is not a desirable condition either.

DHT in the presence of optimal Testosterone and optimal Estrogen levels cant cause BPH or prostate cancer or else every teenager and guy in his early 20's would have it.

NOT correct. There is an age factor involved. Same argument applies for MPB.

 

[superone]

Correct but while BPH is well, benign, and accordingly not nearly as severe as prostate cancer, it is not a desirable condition either.




NOT correct. There is an age factor involved. Same argument applies for MPB.

I think it IS correct, there is no evidence to show DHT iself CAUSES prostate cancer. There are studies showing men given DHT gel or cream had no changes in PSA or the Prostate, and in france and other countries they actually use DHT to shrink the prostate and improve BPH symptoms.



And there ARE teenagers and guys in their early 20's who do have MPB, and are losing their hair, and none of them have BPH or prostate cancer, and in FACT, there is a study that they mentioned on the TV show " The Doctors ", that men who lost their hair in their early years had a 45% LESS chance of developing prostate cancer.

 

[Nitrox]

I think it IS correct, there is no evidence to show DHT iself CAUSES prostate cancer. There are studies showing men given DHT gel or cream had no changes in PSA or the Prostate, and in france and other countries they actually use DHT to shrink the prostate and improve BPH symptoms.

And there ARE teenagers and guys in their early 20's who do have MPB, and are losing their hair, and none of them have BPH or prostate cancer, and in FACT, there is a study that they mentioned on the TV show " The Doctors ", that men who lost their hair in their early years had a 45% LESS chance of developing prostate cancer.

If you want to know what I was really talking about then read up on probabilistic vs deterministic systems.

 

[superone]

I know exactly what you are saying. We are basing that DHT is the actual CAUSE of the prostate cancer because men who used Finasteride had a 25% less chance of developing prostate cancer, but if DHT was the actual cause of the prostate cancer, then men using Finasteride would have atleast a 90% reduction in prostate cancer. Even men using Dutasteride only experience a 25% less change getting prostate cancer compared to 20% less chance on placebo. There are also studies showing men who were administered DHT had no negative effects on PSA or the prostate, aswell as the study showing men who went bald earlier in life had a less chance of getting prostate cancer.




So I dont think there is any real evidence to show that DHT is actually the cause of the prostate cancer. DHT seems to be like IGF-1 in the regard that IGF-1 itself doesnt cause the cancer, but if you have cancer it may cause it to grow, or may stop the cancer cell from apoptosis. I actually read a study showing that DHT may stop prostate cell apoptosis or something along those lines, but its not actually the DHT that is causing the cancer.


Same thing can be said for ALL hormones, as they ALL seem to fuel cancer progression, but not cause cancer. We need hormones to live and feel good, We cant just lower all these hormones to try and prevent cancer. I don't think god gave us hormones produced naturally in our own bodies that would cause us cancer and disease. It is US who abuse our health and cause our hormones to be out of balance and out of whack. Girls have the highest estrogen and progesterone levels as teenagers and young adults, yet they have the least amount of breast cancer, and men have the highest levels of Testosterone and DHT at this time aswell, yet the least amount of BPH and prostate cancer.




I dont think we can put all out faith in studies and bogus research funded the the drug companies selling the drugs!



Just my opinion and using my own common sense!

 

[BBB]

It is actually all a matter of hormonal ratios. In youth, testosterone and progesterone are the dominant hormones. However as we age estrogen increases as testosterone and progesterone decrease while DHT remains stable. As testosterone and progesterone are lowered our T/E ratio is reduced and our DHT/E ratio is increased. Progesterone is an estrogen/DHT antagonist. This elevated DHT/E ratio is what causes problems. There are several ways to correct this problem. The best solution is to raise T and progesterone while lowering E to youthful levels. A ratio 0f 60 (test)/200 (progesterone)/1 (estrogen) and 1 (DHT) is often recommended. In either case, lowering E (especially E2) is the best solution. Some have suggested that raising DHT will reduce E. This is a dangerous practice IMO. Everything needs to be kept in balance for optimal health. Moreover, lab tests have proven that excess DHT stimulates cancer proliferation in the prostate even with very low E values. Testosterone, on the other hand, does not stimulate cancer cell proliferation in the prostate. Testosterone apparently has to be converted to DHT for cell proliferation to occur. Moreover, I don’t think there is any argument that excess DHT is the cause of MPB..

 

[superone]

It is actually all a matter of hormonal ratios. In youth, testosterone and progesterone are the dominant hormones. However as we age estrogen increases as testosterone and progesterone decrease while DHT remains stable. As testosterone and progesterone are lowered our T/E ratio is reduced and our DHT/E ratio is increased. Progesterone is an estrogen/DHT antagonist. This elevated DHT/E ratio is what causes problems. There are several ways to correct this problem. The best solution is to raise T and progesterone while lowering E to youthful levels. A ratio 0f 60 (test)/200 (progesterone)/1 (estrogen) and 1 (DHT) is often recommended. In either case, lowering E (especially E2) is the best solution. Some have suggested that raising DHT will reduce E. This is a dangerous practice IMO. Everything needs to be kept in balance for optimal health. Moreover, lab tests have proven that excess DHT stimulates cancer proliferation in the prostate even with very low E values. Testosterone, on the other hand, does not stimulate cancer cell proliferation in the prostate. Testosterone apparently has to be converted to DHT for cell proliferation to occur. Moreover, I don’t think there is any argument that excess DHT is the cause of MPB..

Can you please show me that DHT study? And why would someone have excess DHT for? It seems to me DHT is being blamed for people not looking after their diet and lifestyle properly. Healthy men dont get prostate cancer yet they have normal DHT levels. If you for some reason have high E when you get older, which shouldnt be the case if you look after your diet, lifestyle, and have low body fat, then DHT should not cause any problems. Thats just like blaming IGF-1 for possibly increasing cancer cells that are already present, yet the IGF-1 was not the actual cause of the cancer, it was your lifestyle and diet.



I believe in having an optimal hormonal balance as you age, and this includes having the same DHT levels you had as a teenager for optimal sexual function and pleasure.

 

[BBB]

Why E increases and T and pregesterone decrease with age is yet to be determined. Diet and exercise help but they aren't the total answer.