WOW! Look at this guy 55yrs young

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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    I run it as a staple so I use 3 days a week 50 mg(2 squirts) in the am and the same pm. This way I never really seem to build up resistance to it. If you want to get the full benefit it needs to be cycled and tapered. I forget the dosing but it varies from person to person. I'm in it for the long haul.
    I am much smaller than you, so your dosing requirements would be higher, I suppose.

    With a half-life of ~ 12 hours, that makes sense. I recall reading that the effects last up to 48 hrs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacTech View Post
    I am much smaller than you, so your dosing requirements would be higher, I suppose.

    With a half-life of ~ 12 hours, that makes sense. I recall reading that the effects last up to 48 hrs.
    A lot of times sensitivity will be the key not size... I seem to be fairly sensitive to it. That's a very low dose.
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    A lot of times sensitivity will be the key not size... I seem to be fairly sensitive to it. That's a very low dose.
    i can't seem to keep my dose that low, i have to cycle formestane because i love the effect of 4 pumps 2xday.
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    For best results:

    Ya, apply it where skin is thin and where it's easily absorbed, and cycle areas to apply it. Obviously, make sure application area is freshly cleaned and dry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuberman View Post
    For best results:

    Ya, apply it where skin is thin and where it's easily absorbed, and cycle areas to apply it. Obviously, make sure application area is freshly cleaned and dry.
    then stand in front of fan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    then stand in front of fan.


    Yep, lol, I forgot the most important part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    i can't seem to keep my dose that low, i have to cycle formestane because i love the effect of 4 pumps 2xday.
    I know what you mean it's hard at first not to do higher dose. The thing is if I want constant Estrogen control I have to bite the bullet. It seems to be all I need over the long haul. I was surpised out how I never seemed to get more resistant. Another thing I do is take a week off every couple of months, just in case.
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Mac, the Form thread contains more info than I can even remember. I have settled into my own system which works for this 68 yr old who is 5'11", 218. I take my 200 mgs of DHEA at night with my ZMA. After a morning shower I use 4 squirts of Form, every day. However when I use Epi I go all out and work up from 30 mgs to 50 mgs which I take 3 tabs in the AM and 2 at night. I also go from 1 X ED with the Form to 2 X ED as well. For my time off I still use my own preference which is some men's all-natural bio-identical Progesterone cream which does a good job on my E. I continue my DHEA/ZMA throughout all of this. Hope this helps for perspective.
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    Thanks for the info Dutch. Curious as to why you take your DHEA at night. I take 100mg when I first wake up to combat cortisol release. I have noticed that at 200mg per day, estrogen must start to increase, as I feel its affects, which is mostly emotionally and I feel indecisive about things, kind of a brain fog.

    I will look at the Formestane thread and glean some more info.

    What brand of Progesterone do you use?

    Thanks again.
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    Does formestane ave any risk, other than the ones that would occur if I used to much and got my estrogen too low?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingdong View Post
    Does formestane ave any risk, other than the ones that would occur if I used to much and got my estrogen too low?
    I think it's pretty safe at low doses.
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingdong View Post
    Does formestane ave any risk, other than the ones that would occur if I used to much and got my estrogen too low?
    more research has been done on formestane than any other otc product i can think of. formestane was one of the first compounds looked at for breast cancer treatment. it was discarded as treatment for breast cancer because of poor bio-availability-the only effective way of treatment was iv. but bb'ers being as inventive as we are came up with trans dermal delivery which made formestane much more effective than oral administration. there is a ton of info on formestane, bb'ers have been using formestane all the way back to the days of arnold.
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    OK. I have one more question before I do my own research. Was it discovered in nature, or made in a lab? Just curious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacTech View Post
    Thanks for the info Dutch. Curious as to why you take your DHEA at night. I take 100mg when I first wake up to combat cortisol release. I have noticed that at 200mg per day, estrogen must start to increase, as I feel its affects, which is mostly emotionally and I feel indecisive about things, kind of a brain fog.

    I will look at the Formestane thread and glean some more info.

    What brand of Progesterone do you use?

    Thanks again.
    Mac, I had read that it was best to take my DHEA at night and it seems to work very well so I just never tried to vary it. I'll give it a try in the AM and see if I still get the same results. For years I have been using Healthy Prostate Cream @SupplementSpot.com for my progesterone but I am shifting to another supplier I really like Vitacost, and will now try their much less expensive Life-Flo Progesta-Care Men's Formula @Vitacost.com.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    Mac, the Form thread contains more info than I can even remember. I have settled into my own system which works for this 68 yr old who is 5'11", 218. I take my 200 mgs of DHEA at night with my ZMA. After a morning shower I use 4 squirts of Form, every day. However when I use Epi I go all out and work up from 30 mgs to 50 mgs which I take 3 tabs in the AM and 2 at night. I also go from 1 X ED with the Form to 2 X ED as well. For my time off I still use my own preference which is some men's all-natural bio-identical Progesterone cream which does a good job on my E. I continue my DHEA/ZMA throughout all of this. Hope this helps for perspective.
    When you pulse Epi I assume you use it three times a week. Do you run it for consecutive weeks and how long is your cycle. When I pluse Epi I usually run it three times/week and use formestane and a natty test booster on off days. I usually run it for six weeks and then take a break. Between cycles I use 200 mg of DIM morning and evening and bio identical progesterone every night. I sometimes used a natty test booster between cycles as well. How does this compare to your protocal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    When you pulse Epi I assume you use it three times a week. Do you run it for consecutive weeks and how long is your cycle. When I pluse Epi I usually run it three times/week and use formestane and a natty test booster on off days. I usually run it for six weeks and then take a break. Between cycles I use 200 mg of DIM morning and evening and bio identical progesterone every night. I sometimes used a natty test booster between cycles as well. How does this compare to your protocal?
    Most of my protocal is contained in the above post. I also do a 3 day pulse and run my cycles 6 to 8 weeks. I tried a 10 weeker but it just wasn't as good at the end. Between cycles I am very happy just to run my DHEA/Form combo along with my Creatine/L-Arginine/Beta-ALanine stack. I works for me. I guess I should mention that I ALWAYS use 4 to 5 caps ED of Cissus which has several effects for moi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    Most of my protocal is contained in the above post. I also do a 3 day pulse and run my cycles 6 to 8 weeks. I tried a 10 weeker but it just wasn't as good at the end. Between cycles I am very happy just to run my DHEA/Form combo along with my Creatine/L-Arginine/Beta-ALanine stack. I works for me. I guess I should mention that I ALWAYS use 4 to 5 caps ED of Cissus which has several effects for moi.
    hey dutch, i remember awhile back you saying you were a fan of powerful, you still use it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    Most of my protocal is contained in the above post. I also do a 3 day pulse and run my cycles 6 to 8 weeks. I tried a 10 weeker but it just wasn't as good at the end. Between cycles I am very happy just to run my DHEA/Form combo along with my Creatine/L-Arginine/Beta-ALanine stack. I works for me. I guess I should mention that I ALWAYS use 4 to 5 caps ED of Cissus which has several effects for moi.
    I'm really supprised you use such high doses of DHEA. There a number of scientific studies that show it has detremental effects on the prostate and may even initiate prostate cancer. Do you use formestane as a staple?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacTech View Post
    Thanks for the info Dutch. Curious as to why you take your DHEA at night. I take 100mg when I first wake up to combat cortisol release. I have noticed that at 200mg per day, estrogen must start to increase, as I feel its affects, which is mostly emotionally and I feel indecisive about things, kind of a brain fog.

    I will look at the Formestane thread and glean some more info.

    What brand of Progesterone do you use?

    Thanks again.
    DHEA is to far upstream to control shunting unless you are taking some form of estrogen control.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    DHEA is to far upstream to control shunting unless you are taking some form of estrogen control.
    Control shunting of what, E? I don't understand what you are saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacTech View Post
    Control shunting of what, E? I don't understand what you are saying.
    DHEA can be converted to many other hormones the worst of which is E2.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    DHEA is to far upstream to control shunting unless you are taking some form of estrogen control.
    That's the reason I like to couple it up with Form. I'm left with increased T and some P (Progesterone). At other times I then alternate and use my P cream which also cuts down the E. In both cases I get the T boost I want.
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    Great thread.

    I am 52 and competed drug-free back in the late 80's and early 90's. I then got into golf bigtime until recently, when the bodybuilding bug caught me again.

    At this age I realize that things are not the same, and I've been looking for a way to fight the increase in estro and decrease in testosterone.

    Thanks for all of the information!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DGA3 View Post
    Great thread.

    I am 52 and competed drug-free back in the late 80's and early 90's. I then got into golf bigtime until recently, when the bodybuilding bug caught me again.

    At this age I realize that things are not the same, and I've been looking for a way to fight the increase in estro and decrease in testosterone.

    Thanks for all of the information!

    You might want to look into DIM. It's all natural, inexpensive and lowers E2 in favor of safer estrogens. As I said previously, I combine DIM 200 mg twice/day with natural progesterone 1/4 tsp applied to the scrotum once/day when I'm not using any other form of estrogen control such as formestane or Epi. I use natural progesterone as a staple. There is too much negitive research on DHEA for me to feel comfortable using it for long periods of time and especially in high doses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    There is too much negitive research on DHEA for me to feel comfortable using it for long periods of time and especially in high doses.
    Can you provide a link to this negative research of DHEA usage?

    Most tests that I remember was done at less than 300mg per day.

    While E will rise with DHEA, so to will T. I have used it as a staple supplement for 2 years ED. I stay fairly lean year round and I think it has a greater effect on E because of less aromatization from stored E in fat tissues.

    But I can honestly say, I can feel when E is on the higher side and it a shi**y feeling to say the least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    You might want to look into DIM. It's all natural, inexpensive and lowers E2 in favor of safer estrogens. As I said previously, I combine DIM 200 mg twice/day with natural progesterone 1/4 tsp applied to the scrotum once/day when I'm not using any other form of estrogen control such as formestane or Epi. I use natural progesterone as a staple. There is too much negitive research on DHEA for me to feel comfortable using it for long periods of time and especially in high doses.
    Have you tried taking out the DIM. I've actually read that even though you urinate more estrogen, that doesn't necessarily mean it's just the stuff you already had being removed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacTech View Post
    Can you provide a link to this negative research of DHEA usage?

    Most tests that I remember was done at less than 300mg per day.

    While E will rise with DHEA, so to will T. I have used it as a staple supplement for 2 years ED. I stay fairly lean year round and I think it has a greater effect on E because of less aromatization from stored E in fat tissues.

    But I can honestly say, I can feel when E is on the higher side and it a shi**y feeling to say the least.
    There is lots of research just "google" DHEA and estrogen. Much of the research is contradictory. This is because it is so far upstream on the hormonal scale that it attempts to make what it thinks the body needs. In older males it is normally estrogen at higher doses with very limited testosteron conversion. Also the quality of the DHEA is a big factor as well. Many studies claim it is even dangerous. Dr. Houser is a strong advocate of removing it from the market and he knows his hormones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingdong View Post
    Have you tried taking out the DIM. I've actually read that even though you urinate more estrogen, that doesn't necessarily mean it's just the stuff you already had being removed.
    Again there is lots of research on DIM just use "google". DIM has a lot of proven research behind it and it does lower E2. It is used in many herbal supplements and blood tests prove it's effectiveness. Don't be fooled by those who claim that theres is more bioavailable it's just a sales ploy to increase the price and make you think there product is superior. DIM is very bioavailable without any intervention.
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    A caveat for older lifters, “don't lift heavy too often”. I use to lift occasionally, with gentlemen by the name of Dr. Daryl Johnson. You may have seen him on the cover of "Powerlifting" magazine from time to time, moreover he is a member of the NASA "Hall of Fame" (below is an exerpt). In his early 70's Daryl was squating over 600 lbs. He is built like a brick outhouse and helped me increase my bench press from 315 to over 350 lbs. Years of heavy lifting finally took its toll on Daryl. His joints started hurting so badly that he had to quite lifting altogether. A few years ago I started having joint problems myself and countered with Cissus. Cissus only masks the problem when I quit using it my joints would start to hurt again. Now I only lift heavy on occasion. The rest of the time I use moderate weights and increase the reps. My joints are in excellent condition and I now lift pain free.

    Daryl Johnson, AR. 1990 Over-All Athlete of the Year. Has re-wrote the Record Book in every weight class and division he has lifted. Has won an Athlete of the Year Award every year he has been a member of NASA including Meet Director of the Year, Referee of the Year," Terry McGowan Memorial Award for Excellence", Masters 2 Lifter of Year, Masters 3 Lifter of the Year. One of 3 lifters selected as Athlete of the Decade for the '90's. Competed for NASA on our Russian Tour (Lenengrad and Moscow), winning all of his competitions. Daryl is a sure winner every time he takes the platform.

    P.S. I also lift at the same gym with Tyson Meyers. Check him out he's one strong mother.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    A caveat for older lifters, “don't lift heavy too often”. I use to lift occasionally, with gentlemen by the name of Dr. Daryl Johnson. You may have seen him on the cover of "Powerlifting" magazine from time to time, moreover he is a member of the NASA "Hall of Fame" (below is an exerpt). In his early 70's Daryl was squating over 600 lbs. He is built like a brick outhouse and helped me increase my bench press from 315 to over 350 lbs. Years of heavy lifting finally took its toll on Daryl. His joints started hurting so badly that he had to quite lifting altogether. A few years ago I started having joint problems myself and countered with Cissus. Cissus only masks the problem when I quit using it my joints would start to hurt again. Now I only lift heavy on occasion. The rest of the time I use moderate weights and increase the reps. My joints are in excellent condition and I now lift pain free.

    Daryl Johnson, AR. 1990 Over-All Athlete of the Year. Has re-wrote the Record Book in every weight class and division he has lifted. Has won an Athlete of the Year Award every year he has been a member of NASA including Meet Director of the Year, Referee of the Year," Terry McGowan Memorial Award for Excellence", Masters 2 Lifter of Year, Masters 3 Lifter of the Year. One of 3 lifters selected as Athlete of the Decade for the '90's. Competed for NASA on our Russian Tour (Lenengrad and Moscow), winning all of his competitions. Daryl is a sure winner every time he takes the platform.

    P.S. I also lift at the same gym with Tyson Meyers. Check him out he's one strong mother.

    Right you are, it's not so much about age but wear and tear.. I don't lift heavy all the time, maybe a few routines are year are really heavy. I usually switch off to higher reps or even more isolated movements. I like HST for this as I can build up to the heavy weight but because of my joints I have found that I could not go more than 2 weeks when I got down to 5 reps, and I should have opted for only 2 sets instead of the optional 3 when doing 5 reps. I also find I need to take more frequent breaks.. I take a week every 2 or 3 months sometimes less time depending on what I'm doing.
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    Right you are, it's not so much about age but wear and tear.. I don't lift heavy all the time, maybe a few routines are year are really heavy. I usually switch off to higher reps or even more isolated movements. I like HST for this as I can build up to the heavy weight but because of my joints I have found that I could not go more than 2 weeks when I got down to 5 reps, and I should have opted for only 2 sets instead of the optional 3 when doing 5 reps. I also find I need to take more frequent breaks.. I take a week every 2 or 3 months sometimes less time depending on what I'm doing.
    You sound like a savy lifter your body will reward you with many years of good health.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    You sound like a savy lifter your body will reward you with many years of good health.
    Thanks.. if by that you mean I've learned some hard lessons you're right...

    I started back fairly late in life (32) and soon discovered my joints were not going to support a life of heavy lifting on a constant basis. That and the fact that I am not particularly strong on a lot of lifts made me choose bodybuilding over powerlifting style of training. I still managed to do some bonehead moves over the years and that has forced me to get smarter with my lifting. If nothing else I am a technician and will use lighter weight to get bigger gains when I can.
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    There is lots of research just "google" DHEA and estrogen. Much of the research is contradictory. This is because it is so far upstream on the hormonal scale that it attempts to make what it thinks the body needs. In older males it is normally estrogen at higher doses with very limited testosteron conversion. Also the quality of the DHEA is a big factor as well. Many studies claim it is even dangerous. Dr. Houser is a strong advocate of removing it from the market and he knows his hormones.
    Thanks for the info on Houser.

    I have used Google, once or twice. I was interested in links from credible sources showing the safety risks of DHEA. I prefer to search PubMed where the results are not skewed by someone trying to sell me their DHEA or something they think is better.

    I feel DHEA helps me. I feel it within minutes after taking it in the morning. It is not placebo effect.

    Why do you think DHEA prefers to convert to Estrogen and not as much to Testosterone?

    I rather think that T is also produced and then it is aromatized to E at a higher rate in some than others. The aromatization is what is the most important thing to control and blocking the sensitivity of E receptors.

    You can also have all the T in the world but have low FT. Most of its all bound by SHBG.
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    I still go very heavy for my age and my joints are holding up well. My preference is to max out at 5 reps. Once a year I take a couple months and switch to GVT and run the 10 X 10s. I also take time off for one reason or another such as for my wife's recent 2 month cancer radiation treatments. I come back and in a month or two I am lifting heavy again. I still take my Cissus daily but a big key for me came two years ago when I started taking 7 gms of fish oil daily. The 2.1 gms of omega 3s contained therin seem to really lubricate and preserve my joints like nothing else I have known.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    I still go very heavy for my age and my joints are holding up well. My preference is to max out at 5 reps. Once a year I take a couple months and switch to GVT and run the 10 X 10s. I also take time off for one reason or another such as for my wife's recent 2 month cancer radiation treatments. I come back and in a month or two I am lifting heavy again. I still take my Cissus daily but a big key for me came two years ago when I started taking 7 gms of fish oil daily. The 2.1 gms of omega 3s contained therin seem to really lubricate and preserve my joints like nothing else I have known.
    You may be an exception as well. It would be fun if coould do more heavy lifting but I am glad in a way because I would never likely have become such a technician if it wasn't out of necessity. I have found that loose form does not work very well on natural athletes. I have been able to get tremendous size increase using mostly lighter weight. It surprises me too sometimes, because of my shoulder injury I thought, oh no I can't do heavy chest exercises I am screwed. Now I have better chest development than I ever have and it's because I was forced to lift smarter. I still try to lift as heavy as possible though, it's fun!! Now I just never let he weight take me out of my very strict form and it's like lifting half again as much.
    Mind and Muscle Board Representative I am not a physician and any advice is solely based on personal experience with various products
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    A well respected friend provided this information below on DHEA. Most notably was that DHEA does not convert to other hormones, as it is used by your body to make the others as needed.

    The testes make most of your pregnenolone, the adrenals make most of your DHEA from pregnenolone. In the testes, DHEA progresses to progesterone then cortisol as NEEDED. The testes use DHEA to make testosterone as NEEDED. DHEA does not spontaneously turn into other hormones.

    If DHEA is low, that can rate limit the production of down stream hormones, then DHEA supplementation can address some of that. Men and women start to loose significant levels of DHEA after 30 years of age. And we all start to age significantly from there. There are some good argument to supplement DHEA and there is a lot written about that. Because drug companies are not getting profits, they are not in control of what you here. But the message is still not simple or clear.

    Guys on TRT without hCG have their testes shutdown and loose the biggest single source of pregnenolone in their bodies. That lowers DHEA and all of the other steroid hormones. Brain, mind and body all suffer.

    You can safely take DHEA supplements. If your E goes high, that is another problem that needs to be studied and dealt with. If your cortisol is high, you need to look at how you are stressing your mind and body before the adrenals get weakened... another kind of hell. You do not want to manage E2 or cortisol with a lack of DHEA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacTech View Post
    A well respected friend provided this information below on DHEA. Most notably was that DHEA does not convert to other hormones, as it is used by your body to make the others as needed.

    The testes make most of your pregnenolone, the adrenals make most of your DHEA from pregnenolone. In the testes, DHEA progresses to progesterone then cortisol as NEEDED. The testes use DHEA to make testosterone as NEEDED. DHEA does not spontaneously turn into other hormones.

    If DHEA is low, that can rate limit the production of down stream hormones, then DHEA supplementation can address some of that. Men and women start to loose significant levels of DHEA after 30 years of age. And we all start to age significantly from there. There are some good argument to supplement DHEA and there is a lot written about that. Because drug companies are not getting profits, they are not in control of what you here. But the message is still not simple or clear.

    Guys on TRT without hCG have their testes shutdown and loose the biggest single source of pregnenolone in their bodies. That lowers DHEA and all of the other steroid hormones. Brain, mind and body all suffer.

    You can safely take DHEA supplements. If your E goes high, that is another problem that needs to be studied and dealt with. If your cortisol is high, you need to look at how you are stressing your mind and body before the adrenals get weakened... another kind of hell. You do not want to manage E2 or cortisol with a lack of DHEA.
    These are very generalized statements. DHEA will react differently in different people (this is why there are so many conflicting studies) depending on the body’s particular hormonal milieu. Moreover, the overall effect of DHEA is dose dependent. DHEA is a mother hormone and attempts to make whatever hormone appears to be deficient these include both testosterone and estrogen. Estrogen shunting can be controlled to some degree with the proper use of AI’s.
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    What brand of DIM products do you recommend? Also, I use 150mg of DHEA daily. Can DIM be used with DHEA?
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    Quote Originally Posted by luclyluciano View Post
    Wow! I'm 47 and thought I looked good. He's is AMAZING! I am guessing that is a by product of Test year round, and then some. No cycling nonsense. Opinions?
    Big time Testosterone and Growth Hormone supplementation. But that"s Ok, his body needs the Hormones, and he's taking full advantage of what medical science can do for u. I'll be doing the same thing in 11 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rab71 View Post
    Yeah I do have a problem claiming to be all natural when in reality they are juiced to the hilt. looks great either way.
    I agree just say your jucing no shame in that game
  

  
 

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