Ketogenic Diets Suppress IGF-1

Page 10 of 10 First ... 8910

  1. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    @Chados - nothing to add?? Pffft. Sand bagger.

    Now I have nothing to add...you guys got it covered.
    Haha..im more speculating, it's kinda fun when you know something but haven't thought it trough and while exchanging words you notice you have more to say than you think. You guys make me think around the box a little and I appreciate that


  2. This thread has some great information, I don't know how many times I have read something on this board and had to rethink my options. This is a great source of information with some pretty smart cookies!

    Did someone say cookies..................Chris tmas cookie YUM !!
    TEAM GET DIESEL
    GET DIESEL NUTRITION | SINCE 2002 | GETDIESEL.COM

    Use Code 'Rocket5' for 5% off at FeFiFo.com
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by Chados View Post
    Haha..im more speculating, it's kinda fun when you know something but haven't thought it trough and while exchanging words you notice you have more to say than you think. You guys make me think around the box a little and I appreciate that
    That's the point ...right, wrong - it doesn't really matter. Even someone who is "wrong" can have a view that makes the person with knowledge who is "right" think of a new and better angle.

    I have learned more in this one thread than you can believe. @MrKleen73 will still tell me I am wrong. But that doesn't matter...he is wrong about everything anyway.
    "I've never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I've seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked." -Scott Adams

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Rocket3015 View Post
    This thread has some great information, I don't know how many times I have read something on this board and had to rethink my options. This is a great source of information with some pretty smart cookies!

    Did someone say cookies..................Chris tmas cookie YUM !!
    Mmmm, coookies!
    "I've never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I've seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked." -Scott Adams

  5. Glad I started this thread. It started off slow but, there is so much good discussion and info to be learned in here now
    I mean if you really hate your balls, go for it. But, what did they do to you?
    •   
       


  6. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    That's the point ...right, wrong - it doesn't really matter. Even someone who is "wrong" can have a view that makes the person with knowledge who is "right" think of a new and better angle.

    I have learned more in this one thread than you can believe. @MrKleen73 will still tell me I am wrong. But that doesn't matter...he is wrong about everything anyway.
    Haha i agree. Well if one of you is wrong that means we have a 50% success in this thread, let's make it 100.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Chados View Post
    I'm not really suggesting ketosis has to be 30gr but that the brain needs 30gr. Ketosis is probably possible as you said depending on size and I can totally relate to what you said about waking up shaking. So in terms of comparing how the body reacts during starvation one would have to starve with the carbs or making it impossible for the body to get these 30gr from anywhere? .. I agree they're not the same but Im just asking wether the body in any way starts burning its own fat if the brain gets just the exact right amount of carbs which seems to be 30gr before it starts to actually starve.. Not sure I'm complicating things, I'm trying to make it as easy as possible. Regardless you're a beautiful man for teaching me more about this haha.
    Yes, the body is burning it's own fat most of the time to some degree or another. Short of times where you are in a heavily anabolic situation. IE a high insulin scenario. As mentioned below there is another hormone involved called glucagon and it is insulins antagonist. It is the catabolic / starvation hormone, and they work in a sliding balance at all times. The higher the insulin levels the less glucagon, and the less fat is being burned at that moment. The higher the glucagon and lower the insulin is will promote more fat use.

    Now as for fats, only fats that have been converted to a specific type of lipid can be used immediately for energy. I think it might be a medium chain triglyceride, but I don't want to get too specific as I may not have that correct. Anyway if your dietary fats do not have enough of that type available then there is a conversion process and body fat is used to backfill that as well even when in a caloric balance. So the body is almost always burning some of it's fat stores. However high glucagon, and low insulin levels is the signalling environment that tells the body stop trying to run off carbs, we need to focus on the fat for now.

    Intermittent Fasting takes advantages of the bodies ability to be metabolically flexible as well. Which I think is why a lot of people tend to do well on it. It plays into our natural pathways. The body is supposed to be able to do both things efficiently, IF is a great way to get those systems to step up and adapt quickly. Plus playing into natural circadian rhythms makes it easier for a lot of people to follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Witch View Post
    Actually glucagon from the pancreas converts glycogen back into glucose and releases it into the blood stream, generally anytime the body reaches its starvation point. Basically glucagon is the exact opposite hormone to insulin.
    Interesting... I was going to mention glucagon but didn't want to muddy the waters too much more. I find the insulin / glucagon relationship fascinating. However I thought it caused that reaction in the liver, and not from muscle stores. Everything I read in my nutrition certification stated it can not be put back in. I might have to revisit this. Could be just mixing up two processes. I will have to go look up the particulars on that. However I know there is something about the glutamine skeletal structure being reused to create glycogen. The glu prefix being the tie in between the glucose and glutamine, there is some similar structure. Not saying we are discussing the same process either. Just mentioning this is one pathway that glycogen could be made from muscle but not actually released by it.

    So I had to know if I was wrong and this is what I found with a quick search which leads me to believe I am correct in my memory.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK21190/

    Section 21.3Epinephrine and Glucagon Signal the Need for Glycogen Breakdown

    Protein kinase A activates phosphorylase kinase, which in turn activates glycogen phosphorylase. What activates protein kinase A? What is the signal that ultimately triggers an increase in glycogen breakdown?

    21.0.1. An Overview of Glycogen Metabolism:
    Glycogen degradation and synthesis are relatively simple biochemical processes. Glycogen degradation consists of three steps: (1) the release of glucose 1-phosphate from glycogen, (2) the remodeling of the glycogen substrate to permit further degradation, and (3) the conversion of glucose 1-phosphate into glucose 6-phosphate for further metabolism. The glucose 6-phosphate derived from the breakdown of glycogen has three fates (Figure 21.3): (1) It is the initial substrate for glycolysis, (2) it can be processed by the pentose phosphate pathway to yield NADPH and ribose derivatives; and (3) it can be converted into free glucose for release into the bloodstream. This conversion takes place mainly in the liver and to a lesser extent in the intestines and kidneys.

    from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22429/

    "21.3.1. G Proteins Transmit the Signal for the Initiation of Glycogen Breakdown

    Several hormones greatly affect glycogen metabolism. Glucagon and epinephrine trigger the breakdown of glycogen. Muscular activity or its anticipation leads to the release of epinephrine (adrenaline), a catecholamine derived from tyrosine, from the adrenal medulla. Epinephrine markedly stimulates glycogen breakdown in muscle and, to a lesser extent, in the liver. The liver is more responsive to glucagon, a polypeptide hormone that is secreted by the α cells of the pancreas when the blood-sugar level is low. Physiologically, glucagon signifies the starved state."

    Epinephrine is more involved with the breakdown process for muscle in action, and glucagon is responsible for trying to maintain blood sugar levels. We know a person can go hypo while having plenty of glycogen stored in their muscle. Body builders die from this while bulking on insulin, it isn't anything new. This is just anecdotal evidence but pretty obvious and clear that if the muscle could release glycogen it would in that situation. This scenrio is the same with something like a CBL diet. Lets say you workout and create a super insulin sensitive environment and eat a high amount of easily digested carbohydrate. You soak up all the blood glucose due to the resulting insulin spike. Now you are an hour into sleeping and are hypoglycemic so your liver dumps a good bit of your liver glycogen stores. This results in another insulin spike, which results in more glucose being released from the liver, since not eating this can happen more than once during the overnight fast. Next time glucagon signals no, more liver glycogen... time for cortisol and the switch to fat baby.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  8. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Interesting... I was going to mention glucagon but didn't want to muddy the waters too much more. I find the insulin / glucagon relationship fascinating. However I thought it caused that reaction in the liver, and not from muscle stores. Everything I read in my nutrition certification stated it can not be put back in. I might have to revisit this. Could be just mixing up two processes. I will have to go look up the particulars on that. However I know there is something about the glutamine skeletal structure being reused to create glycogen. The glu prefix being the tie in between the glucose and glutamine, there is some similar structure. Not saying we are discussing the same process either. Just mentioning this is one pathway that glycogen could be made from muscle but not actually released by it.

    So I had to know if I was wrong and this is what I found with a quick search which leads me to believe I am correct in my memory.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK21190/

    Section 21.3Epinephrine and Glucagon Signal the Need for Glycogen Breakdown

    Protein kinase A activates phosphorylase kinase, which in turn activates glycogen phosphorylase. What activates protein kinase A? What is the signal that ultimately triggers an increase in glycogen breakdown?

    21.0.1. An Overview of Glycogen Metabolism:
    Glycogen degradation and synthesis are relatively simple biochemical processes. Glycogen degradation consists of three steps: (1) the release of glucose 1-phosphate from glycogen, (2) the remodeling of the glycogen substrate to permit further degradation, and (3) the conversion of glucose 1-phosphate into glucose 6-phosphate for further metabolism. The glucose 6-phosphate derived from the breakdown of glycogen has three fates (Figure 21.3): (1) It is the initial substrate for glycolysis, (2) it can be processed by the pentose phosphate pathway to yield NADPH and ribose derivatives; and (3) it can be converted into free glucose for release into the bloodstream. This conversion takes place mainly in the liver and to a lesser extent in the intestines and kidneys.

    from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22429/

    "21.3.1. G Proteins Transmit the Signal for the Initiation of Glycogen Breakdown

    Several hormones greatly affect glycogen metabolism. Glucagon and epinephrine trigger the breakdown of glycogen. Muscular activity or its anticipation leads to the release of epinephrine (adrenaline), a catecholamine derived from tyrosine, from the adrenal medulla. Epinephrine markedly stimulates glycogen breakdown in muscle and, to a lesser extent, in the liver. The liver is more responsive to glucagon, a polypeptide hormone that is secreted by the α cells of the pancreas when the blood-sugar level is low. Physiologically, glucagon signifies the starved state."

    Epinephrine is more involved with the breakdown process for muscle in action, and glucagon is responsible for trying to maintain blood sugar levels. We know a person can go hypo while having plenty of glycogen stored in their muscle. Body builders die from this while bulking on insulin, it isn't anything new. This is just anecdotal evidence but pretty obvious and clear that if the muscle could release glycogen it would in that situation. This scenrio is the same with something like a CBL diet. Lets say you workout and create a super insulin sensitive environment and eat a high amount of easily digested carbohydrate. You soak up all the blood glucose due to the resulting insulin spike. Now you are an hour into sleeping and are hypoglycemic so your liver dumps a good bit of your liver glycogen stores. This results in another insulin spike, which results in more glucose being released from the liver, since not eating this can happen more than once during the overnight fast. Next time glucagon signals no, more liver glycogen... time for cortisol and the switch to fat baby.
    The body would release glucagon of a slight overdose if there were not a radically high amount of insulin to block it. That’s why you can end up taking a tiny tiny bit too much and feel extra ****ty but not dead, eventually glucagon is released. By tiny tiny bit I mean under half a unit for sure. Or maybe your carbs were taken in at the wrong time and et cetera.

    (Disclaimer: don’t ever take too much insulin)
    Do as I say, not as I do.

  9. Somewhat off topic but has anyone ever noticed that their sleep cycles get affected when on keto?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    That's the point ...right, wrong - it doesn't really matter. Even someone who is "wrong" can have a view that makes the person with knowledge who is "right" think of a new and better angle.

    I have learned more in this one thread than you can believe. @MrKleen73 will still tell me I am wrong. But that doesn't matter...he is wrong about everything anyway.
    Oh no, I am sure you have learned a ton in this thread. After all, it has been quite a schooling for you!!!!



    I kid, I kid, I learn a lot in our convos and love being challenged. I even like it when I am proved wrong, or at least have to modify my thinking based on new information.

    I have to go out to look up anything you say to make sure I am not mistaken or not remembering correctly.. I also honestly try to incorporate everything you mention into what I already know about the big picture, or my limited view of it to see if it fits in. Nothing but love and mutual respect for you brother!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DemntedCowboy View Post
    Glad I started this thread. It started off slow but, there is so much good discussion and info to be learned in here now
    Right, it was a great conversation starter and topic!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chados View Post
    Haha i agree. Well if one of you is wrong that means we have a 50% success in this thread, let's make it 100.
    Considering we agree on almost everything else but the extent of the slowdown we are probably at about a 95% in here now.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  11. @Mrkleen so you're saying that a fat based diet without carbs burns more fat than a carb based diet without fats, or a low carb diet vs a low fat diet? Obviously the body can burn regardless of macros but keto itself shouldn't target fat cells by itself right? If that's the case it completely goes against everything ive read.

    95% agreeing hmm, rich Piana would probably have given us the last 5 then lol

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Wagz86 View Post
    Somewhat off topic but has anyone ever noticed that their sleep cycles get affected when on keto?
    My sleep and wake cycle regulates mich better when on keto. I sleep better, im more alert right out of bed, my energy pattern is more stable and im usually much more likely to feel sleepy and ready for bed when its that time of the night.
    High Intensity Training log, wedding prep:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/305228-wedding-preparation-next.html

  13. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Oh no, I am sure you have learned a ton in this thread. After all, it has been quite a schooling for you!!!!



    I kid, I kid, I learn a lot in our convos and love being challenged. I even like it when I am proved wrong, or at least have to modify my thinking based on new information.

    I have to go out to look up anything you say to make sure I am not mistaken or not remembering correctly.. I also honestly try to incorporate everything you mention into what I already know about the big picture, or my limited view of it to see if it fits in. Nothing but love and mutual respect for you brother!!!


    Right, it was a great conversation starter and topic!


    Considering we agree on almost everything else but the extent of the slowdown we are probably at about a 95% in here now.
    Yesun. I done learned a lot! You really edumacated me!

    I did learn, per the studies posted above, that it is unlikely that metabolism ever adjusts more than 5%...I may have been too lenient on the 10%.

    I feel the same way- I have to really pay attention to what I say. I know if I am off even a little you will capitalize! Not only to I have to research what you say, or check up on my own thoughts - but I often find myself going down paths I hadn't thought of.

    As far as mutual respect....I think we have to debate what "mutual" means

    Just kidding if course!
    "I've never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I've seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked." -Scott Adams

  14. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Yes, the body is burning it's own fat most of the time to some degree or another. Short of times where you are in a heavily anabolic situation. IE a high insulin scenario. As mentioned below there is another hormone involved called glucagon and it is insulins antagonist. It is the catabolic / starvation hormone, and they work in a sliding balance at all times. The higher the insulin levels the less glucagon, and the less fat is being burned at that moment. The higher the glucagon and lower the insulin is will promote more fat use.

    Now as for fats, only fats that have been converted to a specific type of lipid can be used immediately for energy. I think it might be a medium chain triglyceride, but I don't want to get too specific as I may not have that correct. Anyway if your dietary fats do not have enough of that type available then there is a conversion process and body fat is used to backfill that as well even when in a caloric balance. So the body is almost always burning some of it's fat stores. However high glucagon, and low insulin levels is the signalling environment that tells the body stop trying to run off carbs, we need to focus on the fat for now.

    Intermittent Fasting takes advantages of the bodies ability to be metabolically flexible as well. Which I think is why a lot of people tend to do well on it. It plays into our natural pathways. The body is supposed to be able to do both things efficiently, IF is a great way to get those systems to step up and adapt quickly. Plus playing into natural circadian rhythms makes it easier for a lot of people to follow.



    Interesting... I was going to mention glucagon but didn't want to muddy the waters too much more. I find the insulin / glucagon relationship fascinating. However I thought it caused that reaction in the liver, and not from muscle stores. Everything I read in my nutrition certification stated it can not be put back in. I might have to revisit this. Could be just mixing up two processes. I will have to go look up the particulars on that. However I know there is something about the glutamine skeletal structure being reused to create glycogen. The glu prefix being the tie in between the glucose and glutamine, there is some similar structure. Not saying we are discussing the same process either. Just mentioning this is one pathway that glycogen could be made from muscle but not actually released by it.

    So I had to know if I was wrong and this is what I found with a quick search which leads me to believe I am correct in my memory.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK21190/

    Section 21.3Epinephrine and Glucagon Signal the Need for Glycogen Breakdown

    Protein kinase A activates phosphorylase kinase, which in turn activates glycogen phosphorylase. What activates protein kinase A? What is the signal that ultimately triggers an increase in glycogen breakdown?

    21.0.1. An Overview of Glycogen Metabolism:
    Glycogen degradation and synthesis are relatively simple biochemical processes. Glycogen degradation consists of three steps: (1) the release of glucose 1-phosphate from glycogen, (2) the remodeling of the glycogen substrate to permit further degradation, and (3) the conversion of glucose 1-phosphate into glucose 6-phosphate for further metabolism. The glucose 6-phosphate derived from the breakdown of glycogen has three fates (Figure 21.3): (1) It is the initial substrate for glycolysis, (2) it can be processed by the pentose phosphate pathway to yield NADPH and ribose derivatives; and (3) it can be converted into free glucose for release into the bloodstream. This conversion takes place mainly in the liver and to a lesser extent in the intestines and kidneys.

    from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22429/

    "21.3.1. G Proteins Transmit the Signal for the Initiation of Glycogen Breakdown

    Several hormones greatly affect glycogen metabolism. Glucagon and epinephrine trigger the breakdown of glycogen. Muscular activity or its anticipation leads to the release of epinephrine (adrenaline), a catecholamine derived from tyrosine, from the adrenal medulla. Epinephrine markedly stimulates glycogen breakdown in muscle and, to a lesser extent, in the liver. The liver is more responsive to glucagon, a polypeptide hormone that is secreted by the α cells of the pancreas when the blood-sugar level is low. Physiologically, glucagon signifies the starved state."

    Epinephrine is more involved with the breakdown process for muscle in action, and glucagon is responsible for trying to maintain blood sugar levels. We know a person can go hypo while having plenty of glycogen stored in their muscle. Body builders die from this while bulking on insulin, it isn't anything new. This is just anecdotal evidence but pretty obvious and clear that if the muscle could release glycogen it would in that situation. This scenrio is the same with something like a CBL diet. Lets say you workout and create a super insulin sensitive environment and eat a high amount of easily digested carbohydrate. You soak up all the blood glucose due to the resulting insulin spike. Now you are an hour into sleeping and are hypoglycemic so your liver dumps a good bit of your liver glycogen stores. This results in another insulin spike, which results in more glucose being released from the liver, since not eating this can happen more than once during the overnight fast. Next time glucagon signals no, more liver glycogen... time for cortisol and the switch to fat baby.
    I actually think the "switch to fat" here is a big part of the PDK discussion we have had. Gluconeogenesis converting fat to carbs is like turning rocket fuel to gasoline.

    Not to get you going...but taking 1 gram if 9 calorie fat and turning it to 1 gram of glucose will yield 1 gram of fat loss and only supply 4 calories.

    The trick is to keep your metabolic flexibility up and not eliminating the demand for carbs (with PDK elevation reducing this demand - brought on by obesity, or a reduction in calories and/or carbs).

    This is what gets my interest about CBL so much.
    "I've never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I've seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked." -Scott Adams

  15. Quote Originally Posted by jrock645 View Post
    My sleep and wake cycle regulates mich better when on keto. I sleep better, im more alert right out of bed, my energy pattern is more stable and im usually much more likely to feel sleepy and ready for bed when its that time of the night.
    What I mean to say is. Toward the end of the week before a carb load when you are really depleted I find I have very restless sleep

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Wagz86 View Post
    What I mean to say is. Toward the end of the week before a carb load when you are really depleted I find I have very restless sleep
    Yup that's very likely to happen.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Not to get you going...but taking 1 gram if 9 calorie fat and turning it to 1 gram of glucose will yield 1 gram of fat loss and only supply 4 calories.
    Hey you said you're done here! This is interesting though indeed

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Chados View Post
    Hey you said you're done here! This is interesting though indeed
    Lol, I said you guys had it covered...I had nothing to add. Not that I was done, haha.

    I find it very interesting and kleen and I have debated it at length...it implies that using fat for energy through ketosis will actually give the appearance of a slowing metabolism without reducing thermal expenditure.

    I.e. - if in ketosis and burning fat directly you are getting 9 calories for every gram of mass lost. But going into ketosis elevates an enzyme called pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase (PDK) which is a "switch" in the Krebs cycle which turns on fat burning for energy.

    One thing to keep in mind, as Kleen said above, it isn't just on or off. It's a mix...but during obesity, ketosis, starvation - pdk elevates and you burn fat directly and this means you cannot burn carbs as efficiently.

    The issue is that if you need to burn fat, PDK elevates and thus the demand for carbs to fuel the Krebs cycle drops. In obesity, the abundance of lipids elevates pdk in an attempt to burn off the potentially toxic levels of fat available. And then you go on a keto diet and this could get worse because you have an abundance of lipid - but now no carbs at all, so you reduce the need for the machinery to burn carbs even more. This works fine - because it avoids the issue that obesity created a situation where you cannot effectively burn carbs and just uses the fat burning machinery that is in place. But it also makes the underlying issue - that you have reduced carb burning machinery - worse, potentially.

    That's great, who cares, you lose weight and love keto. But then you are off the diet and carbs just make you gain like a mofo, because you cannot burn them effectively- and since you cannot burn them in the cell you have to take your 4 calorie gram of carb and store it as a 9 calorie gram of fat. (Kleen will get me here - it isn't that direct).

    So, now you only burn fat and (just for illistration) you get 900 calories out of every 100 grams of bodyweight, instead of 400 calories if it was burned as carbs.

    This explains why, when you diet, you sit down and do the math and figure you will lose 2 pounds a week if you eat a certain amount but then after a short while you are only losing 1 pound. It is often said you will lose half as fast as the math makes you think.

    It also explains why we think we go into "starvation mode" without creating the need for some magical mechanism that allows us to do equal work with less energy ...which brings us full circle and should fire up the Mrkleen73/hit4me battle all over again.

    It also explains some of the observations from people who love keto diets. They go through the diet, lose weight, come off and carbs blow them up - which they take as evidence that carbs are bad and what makes us fat....and makes them zealots.

    I think Kleen probably thinks I am a little too far gone and schizophrenic with this theory. He may be right.
    "I've never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I've seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked." -Scott Adams

  19. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Lol, I said you guys had it covered...I had nothing to add. Not that I was done, haha.

    I find it very interesting and Chris and I have debated it at length...it implies that using fat for energy through ketosis will actually give the appearance of a slowing metabolism without reducing thermal expenditure.

    I.e. - if in ketosis and burning fat directly you are getting 9 calories for every gram of mass lost. But going into ketosis elevates an enzyme called pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase (PDK) which is a "switch" in the Krebs cycle which turns on fat burning for energy.

    One thing to keep in mind, as Chris said above, it isn't just on or off. It's a mix...but during obesity, ketosis, starvation - pdk elevates and you burn fat directly and this means you cannot burn carbs as efficiently.

    The issue is that if you need to burn fat, PDK elevates and thus the demand for carbs to fuel the Krebs cycle drops. In obesity, the abundance of lipids elevates pdk in an attempt to burn off the potentially toxic levels of fat available. And then you go on a keto diet and this could get worse because you have an abundance of lipid - but now no carbs at all, so you reduce the need for the machinery to burn carbs even more. This works fine - because it avoids the issue that obesity created a situation where you cannot effectively burn carbs and just uses the fat burning machinery that is in place. But it also makes the underlying issue - that you have reduced carb burning machinery - worse, potentially.

    That's great, who cares, you lose weight and love keto. But then you are off the diet and carbs just make you gain like a mofo, because you cannot burn them effectively- and since you cannot burn them in the cell you have to take your 4 calorie gram of carb and store it as a 9 calorie gram of fat. (Kleen will get me here - it isn't that direct).

    So, now you only burn fat and (just for illistration) you get 900 calories out of every 100 grams of bodyweight, instead of 400 calories if it was burned as carbs.

    This explains why, when you diet, you sit down and do the math and figure you will lose 2 pounds a week if you eat a certain amount but then after a short while you are only losing 1 pound. It is often said you will lose half as fast as the math makes you think.

    It also explains why we think we go into "starvation mode" without creating the need for some magical mechanism that allows us to do equal work with less energy ...which brings us full circle and should fire up the Mrkleen73/hit4me battle all over again.

    It also explains some of the observations from people who love keto diets. They go through the diet, lose weight, come off and carbs blow them up - which they take as evidence that carbs are bad and what makes us fat....and makes them zealots.

    I think Kleen probably thinks I am a little too far gone and schizophrenic with this theory. He may be right.
    I'm not gonna say I take any side here but I do think your theory is very interesting. I'm not taking sides cause I don't know the answer.

    switching diets is something that should be done gradually. You have to adapt the body to the changed diet and one can't expect drastic results within a week and thats what makes people lose faith in it.

    Switching to keto can be problematic for your energy if you don't go slow while jumping on a high carb diet absolutely will bloat you. My theory is that this affects a steroid cycle and some people get extremely bloated rather than shredded cause this seems to happen even with clean diets.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Chados View Post
    I'm not gonna say I take any side here but I do think your theory is very interesting. I'm not taking sides cause I don't know the answer.

    switching diets is something that should be done gradually. You have to adapt the body to the changed diet and one can't expect drastic results within a week and thats what makes people lose faith in it.

    Switching to keto can be problematic for your energy if you don't go slow while jumping on a high carb diet absolutely will bloat you. My theory is that this affects a steroid cycle and some people get extremely bloated rather than shredded cause this seems to happen even with clean diets.
    Yeah...I am not sure how it all plays out either. But I think it is exciting to think about the puzzle and the options the ideas above may open up.

    For one, it may give us a better insight and yield better prescriptions for the numerous threads on here from people saying, "I have been dieting and had great results at first. I am doing everything right, but I have been stalled for 3 weeks!"

    The knee jerk reaction to these people is, "starvation mode" and they prescribe, "eat more food".

    And this may work sometimes- because by increasing food, they increase carbs or whatever. But it isn't for the reason they think - it is because they had become so efficient at utilizing energy and eating more carbs required less efficiency.

    And of course - this also supports the idea of a high carb refeed on a regular basis, as well as why it is more important when someone is leaner (which is convenient because the leptin theories above also support why refeeds are absolutely necessary as you become leaner).

    And I think this is where Kleen and I differ a bit. He has strategies that are very effective...look at him. He has helped a bunch of people on here. If you want results today, he has your answers. He gets it done in the real world.

    A lot of my thoughts are focused on theory and some of that may never be useful.

    In other words, if you walk into a dark room and cannot find your way, and need help - kleen is really good at getting that light switch flipped on for you.

    I am just gonna sit there and theorize about how we use romex wiring for electrons to flow, when we could just be inducing a magnetic field...and you will be frustrated because you just want some light.
    "I've never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I've seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked." -Scott Adams

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Wagz86 View Post
    What I mean to say is. Toward the end of the week before a carb load when you are really depleted I find I have very restless sleep
    That sounds like a mental thing to me. I’m 7 weeks in and haven’t had any scheduled carb loads. I had some pie at thanksgiving because that only comes once a year, and 10 days later ate a piece of bread and some potato when I took my fiancée out for her bday dinner, but no other carb ups or cheating. Sounds to me personally like an instance of being exciting or anticipation affecting your sleep. Could be wrong, but that’s my take.
    High Intensity Training log, wedding prep:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/305228-wedding-preparation-next.html

  22. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Yeah...I am not sure how it all plays out either. But I think it is exciting to think about the puzzle and the options the ideas above may open up.

    For one, it may give us a better insight and yield better prescriptions for the numerous threads on here from people saying, "I have been dieting and had great results at first. I am doing everything right, but I have been stalled for 3 weeks!"

    The knee jerk reaction to these people is, "starvation mode" and they prescribe, "eat more food".

    And this may work sometimes- because by increasing food, they increase carbs or whatever. But it isn't for the reason they think - it is because they had become so efficient at utilizing energy and eating more carbs required less efficiency.

    And of course - this also supports the idea of a high carb refeed on a regular basis, as well as why it is more important when someone is leaner (which is convenient because the leptin theories above also support why refeeds are absolutely necessary as you become leaner).

    And I think this is where Kleen and I differ a bit. He has strategies that are very effective...look at him. He has helped a bunch of people on here. If you want results today, he has your answers. He gets it done in the real world.

    A lot of my thoughts are focused on theory and some of that may never be useful.

    In other words, if you walk into a dark room and cannot find your way, and need help - kleen is really good at getting that light switch flipped on for you.

    I am just gonna sit there and theorize about how we use romex wiring for electrons to flow, when we could just be inducing a magnetic field...and you will be frustrated because you just want some light.
    Very mike Mentzerish of you...
    High Intensity Training log, wedding prep:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/305228-wedding-preparation-next.html

  23. Quote Originally Posted by jrock645 View Post
    Very mike Mentzerish of you...
    Lol, thanks. I was drawn to him when I would read his articles because his approach was so different. Maybe because he seemed argumentative. Lol.
    "I've never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I've seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked." -Scott Adams

  24. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Lol, thanks. I was drawn to him when I would read his articles because his approach was so different. Maybe because he seemed argumentative. Lol.
    He was definitely a free thinker. Really had a way of stopping to ask “why?” Which I think is a good thing.
    High Intensity Training log, wedding prep:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/305228-wedding-preparation-next.html

  25. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Yeah...I am not sure how it all plays out either. But I think it is exciting to think about the puzzle and the options the ideas above may open up.

    For one, it may give us a better insight and yield better prescriptions for the numerous threads on here from people saying, "I have been dieting and had great results at first. I am doing everything right, but I have been stalled for 3 weeks!"

    The knee jerk reaction to these people is, "starvation mode" and they prescribe, "eat more food".

    And this may work sometimes- because by increasing food, they increase carbs or whatever. But it isn't for the reason they think - it is because they had become so efficient at utilizing energy and eating more carbs required less efficiency.

    And of course - this also supports the idea of a high carb refeed on a regular basis, as well as why it is more important when someone is leaner (which is convenient because the leptin theories above also support why refeeds are absolutely necessary as you become leaner).

    And I think this is where Kleen and I differ a bit. He has strategies that are very effective...look at him. He has helped a bunch of people on here. If you want results today, he has your answers. He gets it done in the real world.

    A lot of my thoughts are focused on theory and some of that may never be useful.

    In other words, if you walk into a dark room and cannot find your way, and need help - kleen is really good at getting that light switch flipped on for you.

    I am just gonna sit there and theorize about how we use romex wiring for electrons to flow, when we could just be inducing a magnetic field...and you will be frustrated because you just want some light.
    Sometimes theres two sides of the coin even if one side is more correct than the other. I tend to go by experience a lot and even if I don't know why it works I just know it works for me. I think many people come here and say, I don't gain weight anymore so they add another meal of a classic chicken and rice with two chicken breasts and 100gr of rice. Yes you will gain weight and yes you will add muscle but you will slowly add water and fat to to the body.


    A major key to my own progress is to eat when I'm hungry, simple as that. I don't eat just because the clock says 3. The other key is to eat little many times during the day to control bloodsugar and to not get hungry all the time so I devour the first thing I see in the kitchen. A high fat low carb diet can be hard to deal with if you don't manage bloodsugar. I think this is where people fall flat with keto and with a high carb diet the problem often is too much pure sugar rather than slow carbohydrates or (you have to eat to grow) so let's eat 5 meals of rice when you only need 2.
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 09-15-2012, 12:52 PM
  2. Ketogenic Diets and IGF / MGF
    By Whacked in forum IGF-1/GH
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-13-2006, 10:27 AM
  3. Cyclical Ketogenic Diet How to Guideline please
    By OmarJackson in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-15-2005, 12:07 AM
  4. Ketogenic diet converts
    By AldrichAStern in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 06-28-2005, 03:48 PM
  5. Training on the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet
    By YellowJacket in forum Training Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-07-2003, 06:37 PM
Log in
Log in