Yohimbine HCL effectiveness & Intermittent Fasting

[NattyBeast]

Hello, this is my second post on this forum. Ive been working out for 3 years periodically, but I can say that I started lifting seriously about a year/ a year and a half now. After a bulking phase which i shouldn't have done, cause i was already high BF% I decided to start a cutting program. I dropped from 76kg to 73kg in about 2 or 3 months just be being cautious about what I eat.

I want to loose more until late May, to have a low enough BF% and harder muscles/more vascularity.

I'm male, 18 years old 1.70m 73kg

Im now starting a 1500 cal diet, but do you think an 1800cal diet would be enough?

Also, is yohimbine hcl effective for fat loss, amd how much compared to ephedrine?
I've been intermittent fasting all these 2 months that i lost these kgs and I plan on continuing doing so.

Also how can i preserve mos of my muscle mass during cutting with IF? Beacuse consuming BCAAS in the morning breaks my fast

 

[Smont]

My girlfriend eats 1500 calories a day and she's not working out very hard. I would suggest more calories and create your deficit with more activity.

Id be absolutely starving on 1500. Especially when I was your age

 

[NattyBeast]

So better around 1600-1800? I do 20 minutes HIIT or LISS depending on my stamina after weights. (Weights around 45 min to an hour)

 

[john.patterson]

Im now starting a 1500 cal diet, but do you think an 1800cal diet would be enough?

1500 calories is a very low number to start at. What is your maintenance? If you're training hard you should be able to effectively diet on 1800-2000kcals per day. Don't starve yourself, and don't start your food intake at the bare minimum. Keep some wiggle room in your calorie intake, and at some point when your fat loss stalls you will be able to lower calories more. If you start at 1500 you are going to have a very challenging time when you plateau.

If you're 73kg, what is your goal weight?

Also, is yohimbine hcl effective for fat loss, amd how much compared to ephedrine?
I've been intermittent fasting all these 2 months that i lost these kgs and I plan on continuing doing so.

Yohimbine is a great supplement to incorporate in fat loss. It is best used on an empty stomach and is effective during times of low blood sugar levels. If you're doing IF, incorporating it in the morning or before fasted cardio sessions would be ideal. It works very differently than ephedrine, but I would say that if used correctly it can have a similar benefit/effect.

Also how can i preserve mos of my muscle mass during cutting with IF? Beacuse consuming BCAAS in the morning breaks my fast

There is no significant difference to IF over a standard 4-6 meals per day eating schedule. The big piece of the puzzle is calories in vs. calories out. If doing IF works well for your schedule, do it. If you find that it's a struggle to fast, then split up your meals differently. The factor that will dictate your progress will be consistency in training and nutrition, not specifically when you eat or train.

 

[bell1986]

Hello, this is my second post on this forum. Ive been working out for 3 years periodically, but I can say that I started lifting seriously about a year/ a year and a half now. After a bulking phase which i shouldn't have done, cause i was already high BF% I decided to start a cutting program. I dropped from 76kg to 73kg in about 2 or 3 months just be being cautious about what I eat.

I want to loose more until late May, to have a low enough BF% and harder muscles/more vascularity.

I'm male, 18 years old 1.70m 73kg

Im now starting a 1500 cal diet, but do you think an 1800cal diet would be enough?

Also, is yohimbine hcl effective for fat loss, amd how much compared to ephedrine?
I've been intermittent fasting all these 2 months that i lost these kgs and I plan on continuing doing so.

Also how can i preserve mos of my muscle mass during cutting with IF? Beacuse consuming BCAAS in the morning breaks my fast

As everyone is saying.. Increase your calories

Some people think a huge defecit means quicker fat loss... At the start yes but.... Your metabolism will eventually catch up with that 1500 calorie deficit. Our bodys are very smart and don't want to lose fat. Thats our survival during periods of starvation (Which the human body still believes could be the case)

I would start on 2100-2200 calories and you will still lose fat. After 2-3 weeks drop to around 2000 and continue on this. After another couple weeks drop to 1800 calories and just stay here During the calorie deficit keep cardio to a minimum. I would only use cardio for when you stall again. Incorporate some low intensity cardio ie 30-40 minutes on a treadmill 2-3 times a week and fat loss would continue.

You would feel miserable on 1500 calories. This is where most people fail. They want results as quick as possible but it isn't sustainable. I had a friend who is carrying ALOT of excess weight and i wrote them up a diet and strategy to get started. I put them on 2300 calories to start with and minimal cardio. The initial deficit is a shock to your full system so you will lose fat ' water & glycogen at the start very quickly which will drop your scale weight very quick. What did they do though... I seen thier myfitnesspal and they were consuming 1200 calories! Wanting rapid results. Lasted 2 weeks and thier body just was like no chance... They binged BIG time ad gained more than they weighed previous. If they had stuck to 2300 calories their appetite would a been balanced and they will have had more success sticking to the diet.

As for Yohimbine. Fat loss... Yes. Its one of the more successful supplements to date. Its also believed to help target stubborn fat. Ie the waist area etc. If you haven't ever took it before then i would start at a very low dose just to see how you tolerate it. I personally dont like Yohimbine it makes me very anxious and restless. I think thier are better products on the market to be honest. Less sides and more or less the same results.

Ephidrine.. Fat loss.... Yes. I have ran it previous and like Yohimbine it makes me very anxious. Results were defo noticeable though. Appetite supprression is where it shines though.

Preserve muscle... Dont believe your ever losing muscle when fasting. Thats companys trying to flog off BCAA's saying it removes catabolism during exercise. Leucine can promote protein synthesis but it wont have any effect in the short term. I have done 24 hour fasts for 3 weeks straight with 1 meal in that 24 hour fasting day. Large meal but it covered every Macronutreint i needed. Did i lose muscle? Not at all. If your stimulating muscles ie weight training and your protein carbs and fats are in for the *day* then your completely fine. So dont think your losing muscle.. BCAA's dont spare muscle.. Letting your body know that you need to keep the mass with stimulating the muscles is whats gonna let your body know it needs to keep that mass.


Good luck man a hope this helps!

 

[NattyBeast]

Thank you very much both of you, you have been really helpful. My maintenance calories are ~2.100-2.227/Day.
I mostly do IF because of my schedule. It's just easier for me to just wake up go to school and back (I get home around 15.00) and then go to the gym or eat a little and go after 2 to 3 hours to the gym l, because I'm never really hungry during morning hours amd it also helps me with appetite control.
I do not have exactly a goal weight because i just want to loose fat, i dont care about the scale i care about the mirror.
I've ordered my first bottle of yohimbine today.
I used to do powerlifting workouts before starting the cut. 1RMs were Bench 90kg Squat 135kg Deadlift 145kg.
Now i can barely press 70kg squat 110 amd deadlift 120-130.... So should i increase calories and limit my cardio to 2-3 sessions a week?
*I'll upload photos so you get the idea of ly body composition and understand my goal. I'm not as interested in having visible abs, just to get rid of my chest and abdominal fat and increase vascularity so after the cut I can start clean bulking again from August without gettin much fat.
Oh and i used to be reaaaallyyyy fat 3 to 4 years ago.

 

[Smont]

Start at 2000 and reduce as needed. If you start at 1500 how much more can you reduce? Before you know it your eating bird food lol. At your age I was pounding pbj and milk like 10x a day and maintaining 160 for wrestling. More work gets more food

 

[NattyBeast]

The problem is that i dont have a way 9f tracking the calories I've burnt, so i dont know if i can eat more and such

 

[john.patterson]

The problem is that i dont have a way 9f tracking the calories I've burnt, so i dont know if i can eat more and such

Don't overstress tracking the calories you're burning. If you are consistent in your activity level over the week, there's not need to track calories burned. Doing this and trying to eat according your your daily calorie expenditure would be extremely difficult and overwhelming. Simply stay consistent with your training, cardio, and calorie intake and see how your body responds. Don't obsess over small details, but focus on the big picture.

 

[MrKleen73]

As everyone is saying.. Increase your calories

Some people think a huge defecit means quicker fat loss... At the start yes but.... Your metabolism will eventually catch up with that 1500 calorie deficit. Our bodys are very smart and don't want to lose fat. Thats our survival during periods of starvation (Which the human body still believes could be the case)

I would start on 2100-2200 calories and you will still lose fat. After 2-3 weeks drop to around 2000 and continue on this. After another couple weeks drop to 1800 calories and just stay here During the calorie deficit keep cardio to a minimum. I would only use cardio for when you stall again. Incorporate some low intensity cardio ie 30-40 minutes on a treadmill 2-3 times a week and fat loss would continue.

You would feel miserable on 1500 calories. This is where most people fail. They want results as quick as possible but it isn't sustainable. I had a friend who is carrying ALOT of excess weight and i wrote them up a diet and strategy to get started. I put them on 2300 calories to start with and minimal cardio. The initial deficit is a shock to your full system so you will lose fat ' water & glycogen at the start very quickly which will drop your scale weight very quick. What did they do though... I seen thier myfitnesspal and they were consuming 1200 calories! Wanting rapid results. Lasted 2 weeks and thier body just was like no chance... They binged BIG time ad gained more than they weighed previous. If they had stuck to 2300 calories their appetite would a been balanced and they will have had more success sticking to the diet.

As for Yohimbine. Fat loss... Yes. Its one of the more successful supplements to date. Its also believed to help target stubborn fat. Ie the waist area etc. If you haven't ever took it before then i would start at a very low dose just to see how you tolerate it. I personally dont like Yohimbine it makes me very anxious and restless. I think thier are better products on the market to be honest. Less sides and more or less the same results.

Ephidrine.. Fat loss.... Yes. I have ran it previous and like Yohimbine it makes me very anxious. Results were defo noticeable though. Appetite supprression is where it shines though.

Preserve muscle... Dont believe your ever losing muscle when fasting. Thats companys trying to flog off BCAA's saying it removes catabolism during exercise. Leucine can promote protein synthesis but it wont have any effect in the short term. I have done 24 hour fasts for 3 weeks straight with 1 meal in that 24 hour fasting day. Large meal but it covered every Macronutreint i needed. Did i lose muscle? Not at all. If your stimulating muscles ie weight training and your protein carbs and fats are in for the *day* then your completely fine. So dont think your losing muscle.. BCAA's dont spare muscle.. Letting your body know that you need to keep the mass with stimulating the muscles is whats gonna let your body know it needs to keep that mass.


Good luck man a hope this helps!

Nice response.

The problem is that i dont have a way 9f tracking the calories I've burnt, so i dont know if i can eat more and such

You don't need to know how many calories you burnt. No one really has this information anyway unless hooked up to a breathing apparatus that consistently monitors your metabolic reactions during exercise. They are all just various estimations based off of generalized calculations.

An extremely simple way to figure out your cutting calories is to multiply your body weight in Lbs by 12-13 and start there. Do not adjust calories until you hit a plateau, then add in some more cardio, and then next time drop about 200-300 a day. If you are a decent bit overweight you won't need to adjust for a while because you are already starting relatively low. The suggestion for 2000 is right on point for this method to since 160.6 x12 is 1927, and 160.6x13 is 2087. It is about right on the money. You really should avoid going below a mutliplier of 10 if possible. At that point you should be increasing cardio if you need more of a deficit.

As far as aminos breaking your fast, yeah they do but just barely and the return to fasting levels is abrupt because there is no digestion needed with them. So you get a quick insulin spike then often a drop in blood sugar and right back to fasting hormonal reactions. Again though like mentioned above calories in VS calories out is 90% of it. The other 10% is made up of all the various tweaks like macros, and meal timing, including fasting protocols.

 

[NattyBeast]

Thanks a lot for the reply. Here are some photos of mine so you can get a better view of my physique and understand my goals, but also give me more advice and your own opinion.

Thanks in advance. I really was starving tho

 

[NattyBeast]

Stats once again:

17 Years Old
1.70m
73kg

Uknown BF%

 

[MrKleen73]

Stats once again:

17 Years Old
1.70m
73kg

Uknown BF%

More importantly, explain your workout style, what if any cardio, and how many workouts a week, both resistance training and cardio? Kind of need a big picture here. I assume at 17 you are in High school, any sports or activities like marching band or anything else that would keep you more active than the regular student?

 

[NattyBeast]

Weight lifting 3 to 6 times a week (chest-shoulders, back, arms (bis, tris&forearms) and last day legs. Sometimes i do legs 2 times a week once in Monday once in Saturday. Now cardio is 2 to 3 times a week 20 minutes of LISS or HIIT. I used to prefer HIIT but now with the big restriction i calories i no longer have the energy for HIIT.

Yeah final year of highschool, but i just go to the gym as an after school activity. And occasional spearfishing trips at weekends

 

[MrKleen73]

Yeah then maybe start around 2200 just to see if you start leaning up. If after 2 weeks you have not dropped anything then drop to 2000, but if you are dropping at 2200 then stick with it until you notice a perceivable slowdown in weight loss, UNLESS you see that you are recomping. If your weight is staying the same but you are getting leaner then stay right where you are since growth is also one of your goals and you don't have a target date for being "cut." Any time you get a stall drop calories, or increase cardio. I would wait until you have dropped the calories at least once before increasing your cardio.

Also you might consider doing 3 full body workouts a week they tend to burn a lot of fat. Easy way to do that is look at your chest work and count your sets. Say you have 15 total sets for chest, you would just do 5 sets on each of the 3 workouts, or any combo that adds up to 15 across the week. Doing this in a superset fashion with the opposing muscle group can increase the amount of energy you are burning during the workout.

So you might do something like this.

Day one 5 work sets for each exercise 4-6 reps

Squats 6-8 reps superset with leg curls x8-10

Bench 4-6 reps Superset with Bent OverRows 4-6 reps

Pull Ups Superset with Dips - 3 sets of body weight, stopping with a rep or two in the tank on the 1st and 2nd set and to failure on the 3rd.

Abs and leave...

Day 2 5 work sets for each exercise 8-10 reps

Dead Lifts 5 sets 4-6 reps superset with Leg Extensions 8-10 reps

Incline Bench 10-12 reps, DB Incline Rows 10-12 reps

Side Raises x 10-12 reps, Rear Delts x 10-12 reps

Calves then leave

Day 3

Bulgarian SPlit Squats 4x10-12 reps, Stiff Leg Deadlifts 4x10-12 reps

Bench Press 4 x15, Chin Ups 4 x sub max

Arnold Press 4x15 reps, Recline Rows 4x15

Ab Bracing and leave...

 

[NattyBeast]

Wow thanks a lot! Thanks for takimg the time to help me out! Any good excersises for abs? I always feel like I'm doing crunches wrong, either too low or too high, and sometimes i barely fell the burn at the abs, mostly at the legs. What exercises should i do and at what rep-set range?
I used to do some full body workouts before, the only difference is that i had one workout a week solely dedicated to arms and calves (my arms grow really slow)

 

[MrKleen73]

Wow thanks a lot! Thanks for takimg the time to help me out! Any good excersises for abs? I always feel like I'm doing crunches wrong, either too low or too high, and sometimes i barely fell the burn at the abs, mostly at the legs. What exercises should i do and at what rep-set range?
I used to do some full body workouts before, the only difference is that i had one workout a week solely dedicated to arms and calves (my arms grow really slow)

You could definitely add an arm day only or any body part you want to focus on. Especially arms since they won't really cut into your recovery much. If so I would do them the day after your 3rd workout then get a day off before repeating the cycle.

In all honesty I think things like planks and pall of presses are more valuable to your abs than crunches. Abs are more a stability muscle than a mover muscle although they do also move... Think more of the antirotation aspect of the abs. Do 3 rounds of 30-60 seconds of normal planks into 30-45 seconds of side planks for each side with no rest between them. Meaning go directly from the prone plank on elbow and rotate up into a side plank without breaking the plank, then rotate to the other side without breaking the plank, that is one round. Rest 60-90 seconds between rounds.

When you do your planks you are not just trying to maintain a line, but also flexing the supporting muscles as hard as possible. On the prone plan you should have your scapula protracted, shoulders all the way forward, back rounded slightly, your abs contracted, hips rolled forward, and legs flexed as hard as possible. That is the proper way to do a plank. If you do this and concentrate on bringing your abs in tight and as close to your spine as possible you can not help but to get a strong contraction in the abs! That will also help you learn to activate them at will.

 

[NattyBeast]

Thanks a lot man! You seem like you really know your stuff! I'm glad that someone with so much experience takes the time to actually help me out. I appreciate it a lot. Will the planks give me hard abs for core strength and maybe pop a little out when im leaner?
Also a back before the cut and after pic, i think I have a slimmer waist now.
Left lat is too small

 

[MrKleen73]

Yeah you definitely leaned up nicely! Yes they definitely will get your abs ready and strong but most of your ab development is going to come from heavy lifting and bracing to support the weight. Squats, Dead Lifts, Standing Military press with heavy weight is what is really going to make them bigger and pop more. Genetics also plays a big role in what your abs will look like too.. If the bands across the abs are set deeper in the muscle you will see them better if they are just kind of laying on top of the abs then you will just get a lean but flat abdominal wall with minimal lines. Ab shape is genetic. Development of them can only change so much, but most have a pretty decent set of abs under the fluff, it is just getting that off to make them show.

 

[NattyBeast]

I see! Yeah i try to use belts as little as possible except on ky 1RMs in order to engage as much core muscles during my lifts.
Im really thankful for your help.
Ill try my best and If you don't mind i will ask you later if i have any questions.
Im thinking as well of starting a cutting log in a couple of days when I get my yohimbe.

 

[MrKleen73]

I see! Yeah i try to use belts as little as possible except on ky 1RMs in order to engage as much core muscles during my lifts.
Im really thankful for your help.
Ill try my best and If you don't mind i will ask you later if i have any questions.
Im thinking as well of starting a cutting log in a couple of days when I get my yohimbe.

Link it up in here or send me a link and I will follow along.

 

[NattyBeast]

Thanks a load man! Appreciate it!!!

 

[NattyBeast]

Also dou you have a dosage recommendation and when to take it for Yohimbe+Caffeine when i work my way up to 0.2mg/kg bodyweight?

I go to the gym mostly around 5-6 in the noon and stay for a couple of hours max. My fast lasts from 10pm to 2pm. Should i change my fasting period or wait for some time until i take yohimbine in order to have low insulin in my blood?

 

[MrKleen73]

Also dou you have a dosage recommendation and when to take it for Yohimbe+Caffeine when i work my way up to 0.2mg/kg bodyweight?

I go to the gym mostly around 5-6 in the noon and stay for a couple of hours max. My fast lasts from 10pm to 2pm. Should i change my fasting period or wait for some time until i take yohimbine in order to have low insulin in my blood?

Most caffiene caps are 200mg, so that is probably going to be your starting point there. I would start out with 5mg of yohimbine myself. I have never noticed much off of 2.5 but 5 is a nice start and I don't normally go over 7.5 myself. It is something you have to feel out for yourself. If you think you might be stim sensitive then start with 2.5 but if you are a typical monster drinking highschool student then you will more than likely be fine with 2.5, that of it you already use a pre-workout then 5 should be good to go for a start, then work up to the max for the ratio you mentioned. Me I only go to what feels good and comfortable with Y-HCL because it can turn on your and give you an upset or queezy stomach if you go too high.

 

[NattyBeast]

Im running on 400-600mg caffeine now and im pretty much immune to it.
Ill start with 5mg YHCL and work my way up to the point i feel comfortable then

 

[MrKleen73]

If you take while fasting your insulin levels are going to be low regardless. Are you planning on taking this with your pre-workout, or as your preworkout?
I would take it in the AM to aid in fat burning throughout the day while blood sugar and insulin are low. You can dose more than once in a day also. So you could do a pre workout dose as well but the best use would be during the fast if you only plan do use for one purpose.

 

[NattyBeast]

Can i split the dose? Like half on morning around 6 when i wake up to aid in fat burning and the other half as preworkout combined with caffeine? Or should i take two full doses a day with some hours between administration (1 full dose morning+1 full dose pwo)?

 

[MrKleen73]

Can i split the dose? Like half on morning around 6 when i wake up to aid in fat burning and the other half as preworkout combined with caffeine? Or should i take two full doses a day with some hours between administration (1 full dose morning+1 full dose pwo)?

I would do 2 separate full doses. 1 in the am for fat burning, add the caffeine too or have some coffee, then have another full one pre-workout. Unless you just don't have enough or can not get more right now I would think it would be more effective with 2 full doses a day.

 

[NattyBeast]

Thats what im going to do then. Thanks a lot man, your posts have been a huge help for me!

 

[Newth]

There is some awesome info in this thread.

My son is 17 also and not long ago instead of breakfast he started having a morning coffee with approx 200mg caffeine, 10mg coconut oil, instead of milk and a little stevia to sweeten. He won't consume food until lunch and his mental clarity is the best its ever been at school.

The above workout will keep your metabolism high as for longer than cardio.

I can't IF when the weather is to hot unfortunately but have found the most important thing for me is to make sure not to consume carbs, protein or aminos that will spike insulin for the first few hours or the last couple of hours of the day to get the most from hormones.
If you don't spike your insulin pre-workout then your post-workout shake can be held off for half an hour to get a better growth hormone release from your workout.

Your young with young hormone levels so the better you learn to tweak them now the better the body you will grow long-term, what ever your eating style is.
Less insulin=More GH.
More GH=Less protein breakdown for fuel from cortisol and better fat burning.

Hopefully some of this help and good luck mate.

 

[MrKleen73]

There is some awesome info in this thread.

My son is 17 also and not long ago instead of breakfast he started having a morning coffee with approx 200mg caffeine, 10mg coconut oil, instead of milk and a little stevia to sweeten. He won't consume food until lunch and his mental clarity is the best its ever been at school.

The above workout will keep your metabolism high as for longer than cardio.

I can't IF when the weather is to hot unfortunately but have found the most important thing for me is to make sure not to consume carbs, protein or aminos that will spike insulin for the first few hours or the last couple of hours of the day to get the most from hormones.
If you don't spike your insulin pre-workout then your post-workout shake can be held off for half an hour to get a better growth hormone release from your workout.

Your young with young hormone levels so the better you learn to tweak them now the better the body you will grow long-term, what ever your eating style is.
Less insulin=More GH.
More GH=Less protein breakdown for fuel from cortisol and better fat burning.

Hopefully some of this help and good luck mate.

Great suggestions. You should follow along in his new log. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301767

I also do not have carbs with breakfast unless I am having them post workout. I also do IF most of the time, but am so metabolically flexible at this point from different diets I can swap things around most of the time without having hunger issues when I come back to IF from a quick focus on anabolism. I am an easy gainer so I keep all of my carbs for around my workout. Right now performance is pretty high on my list so I have been adding carbs preworkout, for those training sessions. It works out really well, but for fat loss your suggestion is spot on!

 

[Newth]

Great suggestions. You should follow along in his new log. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301767

I also do not have carbs with breakfast unless I am having them post workout. I also do IF most of the time, but am so metabolically flexible at this point from different diets I can swap things around most of the time without having hunger issues when I come back to IF from a quick focus on anabolism. I am an easy gainer so I keep all of my carbs for around my workout. Right now performance is pretty high on my list so I have been adding carbs preworkout, for those training sessions. It works out really well, but for fat loss your suggestion is spot on!

Thanks for linking me, this will be good to watch and help my boy out also(seeing someone else like him do it).
My metabolism is complete garbage but everything you said is exactly how I find it also, base your eating timing and carb intake off your goals.