Training for Size or Strength?

[AlexParty]

Personally fed up of training for strength. Just focusing on size now, slow and controlled, stimulating the muscle. Some people would say both, that with Strength comes size... That's true but it takes awhile. I've grown a hell of a lot quicker just focusing on the form and stressing the muscle. Pushing the heaviest weight never stimulated the main muscle, sometimes but not often.

 

[VolcomX311]

Transition back & forth from hypertrophic training and strength training.

 

[AlexParty]

Transition back & forth from hypertrophic training and strength training.

Good point, you can do that too to keep these constantly changing. I've done that for a bit and now I just want to try and focus more on just form and stimulation.

 

[nightshift]

Going for size right now. I am using the 20 rep squat routine. It is a good mass builder and I am approaching my goal weight of 240. Thicker is definitely better.

 

[GreenTempo]

I mostly just care about size rather than strength. Sure powerlifters might be able to bench my car but i can take my shirt off on the beach

 

[koopa]

im the opposite. I had a muay thai physique courtesy of 2 years training. Tall and lean as a bean. I could take my shirt off on the beach but i couldnt bench 150lbs for more than 6 reps and my girlfriend could probably deadlift more than me!!!!

Ive gone for strength. I Refuse to believe that you dont gain size when your eating and training like a viking. A sparrow chested man will not bench 400lbs. I may get a bit of extra fat but i can burn that off once ive got myself to a good allround size.

Ive noticed that girls tend to say to you when your bulking and training for strength : "Your looking really heavy nowadays..but kind of in a good way.."

They love the grizzly barbarian look raarr come here little girl and watch me military press you

 

[Link24]

Dc Training is where its at the strength goes up every week and if it doesnt then its a new excercise. Its as simple as that and as long as your eating enough the weight will also be going up at a nice rate.

 

[hardknock]

Have ALWAYS trained for strength, except for 8 weeks of HST which started in January and ended abruptly due to a death in my immediate family.

Now, Im back to strict strength, and I agree that the DC method is VERY effective. Every few months I plan on throwing in some HST style for 4-6 weeks, but I've always been in love with power/strength over anything....but im not big and bulky, im a leaner power guy...5'10-210

 

[AlexParty]

DC Training.... will look into it, but see I am a typical ecto and gaining the muscle mass I have now took fcuking hard work so I don't know if DC will be good for me. Ya strength is good when I wrestle with buddies or gotta lift heavy **** but prefer the size and focus on muscles.

 

[SilentBob187]

I mostly just care about size rather than strength. Sure powerlifters might be able to bench my car but i can take my shirt off on the beach

Amen sir, too true.

 

[koopa]

whats DC training?

 

[VolcomX311]

whats DC training?

I'm on my way out to work, but if no one has explained it to you, I'll be glad to. I don't use it myself, but I have in the past and I can tell you all about it (assuming no one else has already jumped on it)

Or if you want to find Rodja, he lives and breathes DC, well maybe not lives and breathes, but whenever I attack it, he jumps in to defend it, hehe. I say DC is primarily neural adaptions with implications primarily based on strength, he's okay with it as a hypertrophic routine (as long as you include TUT). I may not fully agree, but I respect his knowledge, he's also very intelligeable when it comes to exercise physiology.

I'll be glad to just tell you what DC is without offering my biased opinion. I'll check in on this thread a bit later to see if anyone has taken care of your question. Take care bud.

 

[AlexParty]

I'm on my way out to work, but if no one has explained it to you, I'll be glad to. I don't use it myself, but I have in the past and I can tell you all about it (assuming no one else has already jumped on it)

Or if you want to find Rodja, he lives and breathes DC, well maybe not lives and breathes, but whenever I attack it, he jumps in to defend it, hehe. I say DC is primarily neural adaptions with implications primarily based on strength, he's okay with it as a hypertrophic routine (as long as you include TUT). I may not fully agree, but I respect his knowledge, he's also very intelligeable when it comes to exercise physiology.

I'll be glad to just tell you what DC is without offering my biased opinion. I'll check in on this thread a bit later to see if anyone has taken care of your question. Take care bud.

Interested too in different opinions on DC.

 

[koopa]

I'm on my way out to work, but if no one has explained it to you, I'll be glad to. I don't use it myself, but I have in the past and I can tell you all about it (assuming no one else has already jumped on it)

Or if you want to find Rodja, he lives and breathes DC, well maybe not lives and breathes, but whenever I attack it, he jumps in to defend it, hehe. I say DC is primarily neural adaptions with implications primarily based on strength, he's okay with it as a hypertrophic routine (as long as you include TUT). I may not fully agree, but I respect his knowledge, he's also very intelligeable when it comes to exercise physiology.

I'll be glad to just tell you what DC is without offering my biased opinion. I'll check in on this thread a bit later to see if anyone has taken care of your question. Take care bud.

thanks for the input Volcom! I look forward to hearing back! :drunk:

 

[VolcomX311]

thanks for the input Volcom! I look forward to hearing back! :drunk:

Basically, the premise of DC training is having one, all out “working set.” You would warm up with 1-3 sets, then load on a good, near maximal amount of weight and give it beyond everything you have. You would do this with about 3-5 exercises.

Its second premise is that you only stick with an exercise so long as your making progressive gains and once you’ve maxed out your gains on that particular exercise, you move on to another one until you’ve maxed out your gains on that particular exercise and then you move on and so on.

For instance, take the hammer row. You would warm up with 1 plate on each side, then 2 and maybe even up to 3. Then you would load (at least for me) all 6 plates (which is all this machine holds) on each side and give it all you have, I mean every, little ounce you can squeeze out of your soul and try to reach a personal best each time you hit this exercise. For instance, lets say this week you hit 8 reps with this near maximal, working set, then next week you would do the same exercise and try to top last weeks personal best, so you hit 9 reps, you continue with this exercise in this fashion until you are no longer making any more progress, so if you’ve made your way up to 13 reps at this weight, and you’re stuck at 13 reps for two or three consecutive sessions, then you move on to another machine/exercise. Once progression stops, you move on.
The premise of these premises, is that you won’t plateau because you only stick with exercises as long as you are making continual, progressive gains and once progression stops (plateau), you move on to another exercise where you’re body will get a chance to make new adaption(s).

There is also an Extreme Stretch principle, which is, following the end of each grueling max effort, you hold the weight in a static contraction and let your muscle get stretched in this position for 1 min and this theoretically creates greater microtrauma, therefore, greater hypertrophy.

That is a basic crash course. Let me know if there’s anything you need more clarification on or if anyone else wants to chime in on any crucial details I left out.

Again, you would only do this for 3-5 exercises and that body is done and Machines are preferred with the DC method.

 

[koopa]

hey volcom,

So from what i gather Dc training could look like this?

Workout 1 :

Flat bench - 1xwarmup, 1xwarmup, 1x max weight set
Seated Row- 1xwarmup, 1xwarmup, 1x max weight set
Smith Squat - 1xwarmup, 1xwarmup, 1x max weight set
Shoulder Press- 1xwarmup, 1xwarmup, 1x max weight set

and you would rep to failure on your max weight set, trying to increase your weight and reps on every workout.

Does this sound about right? Would you do a fullbody DC similar to what ive detailed and maybe about 2-3 times a week?

 

[koopa]

actually that seems pretty similar to a ramped up 5x5. MAybe its best doing the 3-5 exercies for one body part like

flat bench
incline bench
cable flies
weighted dip

 

[VolcomX311]

hey volcom,

So from what i gather Dc training could look like this?

Workout 1 :

Flat bench - 1xwarmup, 1xwarmup, 1x max weight set
Seated Row- 1xwarmup, 1xwarmup, 1x max weight set
Smith Squat - 1xwarmup, 1xwarmup, 1x max weight set
Shoulder Press- 1xwarmup, 1xwarmup, 1x max weight set

and you would rep to failure on your max weight set, trying to increase your weight and reps on every workout.

Does this sound about right? Would you do a fullbody DC similar to what ive detailed and maybe about 2-3 times a week?

You don't "max out" on DC. No 1RM's involved, your final set would be around a weight you could push around 6 times to begin with, and then progress from there until progression stops. So 6 reps this week, then you hit 7 the next week, maybe 9 the next week, then you hit 9 again, and if you hit only hit 9 again, then you move on to another exercise and re-start the cycle. Does that make sense?

 

[VolcomX311]

oh wait, I might have mis-understood your "max weight set" for simply "max weight"

 

[VolcomX311]

hey volcom,

So from what i gather Dc training could look like this?

Workout 1 :

Flat bench - 1xwarmup, 1xwarmup, 1x max weight set
Seated Row- 1xwarmup, 1xwarmup, 1x max weight set
Smith Squat - 1xwarmup, 1xwarmup, 1x max weight set
Shoulder Press- 1xwarmup, 1xwarmup, 1x max weight set

and you would rep to failure on your max weight set, trying to increase your weight and reps on every workout.

Does this sound about right? Would you do a fullbody DC similar to what ive detailed and maybe about 2-3 times a week?

That sounds about right. No full body however, same bodypart for all 3-4 exercises.

 

[koopa]

never mind you answered my question just there lol! Thanks buddy

 

[VolcomX311]

Another fun one, if you're into intensity, is Mike Mentzer's old school, High Intensity Training. Training until "complete" muscle failure.

Muscle strength has three components, the concentric, static and eccentric. Take a bicep curl, curling the Db would be concentric strength, holding it near the top/mid point would be static and controlling the Db back down would be the eccentric. When you lift, you're generally only exhausting the concentric portion of your muscle. Total muscle failure routines would look like this. You take a Db onto a preacher curl, pick a weight you would only be able to rep out 6 reps, 8 max. You rep out your 6 reps until concentric muscle failure (you curl until you can no longer curl it, which is best judged the rep before your last rep), then hold the weight in static position, until static muscle failure. At this point the Db will start to drop on it's own, and you fight it with everything you've got until you've reached eccentric muscle failure. In this way, you've exhausted your muscle concentrically, statically and eccentrically. I noticed you wrote weighted dips as one of your chosen exercise, this works really well with weighted dips, the lower portion of your chest gets engorged with blood.

Again, machines are preferred with big lifts such as back, chest or legs. It's pretty intense and similar to DC in that it's only 3-5 exercises per body part. The static portion is the most painful.

I don't do this anymore, but it's another fun routine to throw in the mix if you're into strength and intensity.

 

[koopa]

hey volvom,

What would you thik to a regime comprised of DC and HIT depending on exercises involved. Compound moves like deads, bench squats etc would be performed DC style followed by HIT isolation exercise like bar curls, tricep extensions, leg curls and then use a really slow controlled movement on your bodyweight exercises like dips, pushups, crunches etc to really finish the muscle off.

A good combination in the one workout would surely have best results?

 

[VolcomX311]

hey volvom,

What would you thik to a regime comprised of DC and HIT depending on exercises involved. Compound moves like deads, bench squats etc would be performed DC style followed by HIT isolation exercise like bar curls, tricep extensions, leg curls and then use a really slow controlled movement on your bodyweight exercises like dips, pushups, crunches etc to really finish the muscle off.

A good combination in the one workout would surely have best results?

I think you should try it out and see what you're most comfortable with or assess how your body responds to either DC or HIT. You might want to go 100% DC or 100% HIT. I think when it comes to the intensity training styles, they're all effective, but what's going to separate the effectiveness of each style is which one you feel you're able to give 100% at. If you hate DC training, you won't stick to it, you won't be as motivated, give as much effort, so regardless of it's effectiveness, if you're not utilizing it, you won't fully benefit from it. If you love DC training, oppose to HIT or 5x5, then you'll simply be better at it and derive more from it.

I think you should try them out and asses it yourself. If you like them all equally the same and are willing and able to give 100% at which ever one, then you should start contemplating the specs for precision improvements. But until then, try it out first, see how you like it, how your own body responds to it and how motivated you are to perform it.

The two styles, HIT and DC are very closely related. They share a single working set principle, HIT's original form is actually a total body, one exercise per body part, but I integrated DC's multi exercises for one body part. DC has the extreme stretch, which is somewhat similar to HIT's static contraction failure (but not really that similar, one is a muscle stretch, the other is muscle contraction.) The biggest difference between HIT and DC is HIT's eccentric contraction failure, so test the waters first.

 

[Hank Vangut]

Strength and size are two different animals. It’s true they remain somewhat
intertwined, especially if one gained his muscle mass while training mostly
in the functional hypertrophy zone (80-85%/6-8RM) with some strength
work thrown in there. However it’s quite possible for an individual to have
large muscles and be somewhat weak. On the other hand there are also
individuals with less muscle mass but who have phenomenal strength. This
is mostly due to central nervous system efficiency, a lower muscle fiber
innervation threshold and lowered protective mechanisms. An example of
such an athlete is Canadian bobsledder Pascal Caron who bench pressed
425lbs and full squatted 500lbs at a bodyweight of 167lbs on 5’7”. There are
also the obvious examples of elite Olympic lifters. For example, 3-times
Olympic gold medalist Pyrros Dimas who snatched 396lbs, clean & jerked
469lbs and front squatted over 600lbs at a bodyweight of 185-187lbs! The
fact is that big muscles give you the potential to be strong. However it is the
nervous system that allows you to reach that potential. The following
graphic illustrates the relationship between muscle mass, CNS efficiency
and strength.

 

[Hank Vangut]

As we mentioned the size of your muscles determine your strength potential.
It is agreed by most sport scientists that a muscle’s strength is proportional
to its cross-sectional area (so ultimately to its size). However if the nervous
system is not effective it will be impossible to make good use of an
important muscle mass. Your muscles are much like a factory: a bigger
factory has the potential to produce more because it has more employees,
space and equipment. However if the boss doesn’t know what he’s doing
and cannot for the life of him get his employees to be productive, then the
factory will not live up to its potential. In fact it may very well be beaten by
a smaller enterprise with highly motivated workers. However, if you get the
employees of the big factory motivated you will obviously have one highly
productive business! The same goes with strength. You should spend time
building up your muscles mass (mostly via functional hypertrophy) and
some time learning how to use that mass, by working on improving CNS
efficiency (lifting heavy weights or lifting explosively). The following
graphic shows the various factors involved in strength production.

 

[dawaro]

actually that seems pretty similar to a ramped up 5x5.

Sort of, but not exactly. I looked into this last year and discussed it quite a bit with Dante. I was very close to doing an online session with him but we decided I needed more experience first. DC is not for the weak at heart or for an intermediate trainee. You have to be able to go beyond the point of failure and push out more to make it work. According to Dante the reason most fail is because they can not make the mental connection to push it hard enough.
DC is similar to the 5x5 because of the weights and reps but it is in a rest-pause format where each set is taken to failure (except squats & deads). For instance Bench (this is just an example to give you an idea), your target is 15 reps with a weight you can usually get 6 reps with, so your first set you go to full failure and get 7 reps, rack the weight and take 10-15 breaths, next set you reach full failure at 5 reps, rack it 10-15 deep breaths, final set you get 3 reps at full failure. Then you have a 30 second static hold and an extreme stretch. There is your chest work out.
The reason the Hammer Strength macines are recommended is because you constantly go to failure. Because of this you have to either use machines or have a partner.
I have attached a couple of files that were taken from other forums discussing DC Training for you to look at.

 

[Matt6969]

about the size and strength i completely think you are right. because i know a kid who is 15 he is 5'4 170lb and has never touched a weight in his life. all his muscles are huge and he has no fat but he is not that strong for his size. although i think he could be if he tried.