Homebrew PreWorkout?

[Dungeon1]

What do think of a Preworkout supplement combo consisting of:

2g Citrulline Malate
5g CEE
5g Di-L-Arginine-L-Malate
1g Ornithine AKG
3g Taurine
200mg Caffiene

I was able to assemble this at CNW for under $60 (w/o CEE I have it already), for a 2 month + supply.

 

[milwood]

good ingredients, but since you are using caffeine for pre- (as a stim), save the CEE and Arg for post-workout. You don't really want those and caffeine together. Someone else mentioned taurine and citrulline malate may be best consumed separately, but I'm unsure of that one, and I use them together myself until someone educates me otherwise.

 

[Aeternitatis]

MOst definitely cut out the caffeine. Unless you're doing cardio and trying to lose weight, caffeine is a no-no preworkout. Here is what I would suggest for a more efficient and effective stack with an energy boost:

(take 30-40 minutes preworkout on an empty stomach or with juice [no protein for at least 2 hours prior].)
3g citrulline malate
2g CEE
2g taurine
1g betaine
500mg glucuronolactone
10g BCAA
1g ALCAR
1g Choline Bitartrate

This is much better in my opinion. I would prefer di-creatine malate over CEE but since you already have the CEE might as well use it. You'll get clean energy and focus from the glucuronolactone, ALCAR, and choline without negative effects; much better than caffeine. The BCAA will do more for muscle growth than any of the other ingredients. In fact, you may consider skipping the taurine and betaine.

 

[biggun2181]

i would throw a little pure vitargo in there and change th bcaa's to eaa's

 

[Aeternitatis]

I'm going to have the disagree with the Vitargo and EAA's. As long as you've have at least 1 or 2 good meals before your workout, there is no need to spend the extra money on EAA's and no need for carbs immediately preworkout. In my opinion, carbs preworkout are more detrimental than helpful. You will already have enough stored carbs for energy and amino acids for protein synthesis, and the Leucine in the BCAA's will greatly encourage that protein synthesis.

However, if you're working out first thing in the morning, carbs and EAA's is the way to go. Otherwise, save them for post workout. Also, good alternatives to Vitargo and EAA (both very good products) is high grade hydrolyzed whey protein with dates (the fruit).

The one case (other than first thing in the morning) you'd use some carbs immediately preworkout with your mix is if you wanted them to function as a transport agent. In that case, I'd say no higher than 5 grams of dextrose, vitargo, or dates. You may also consider glycerine in place of actual carbohydrates preworkout. Glycerine is like a super hydrating carb with no effect on insulin. It also can create extreme pumps. Usually 1 tablespoon (approx 30g) is a good amount. It is also sweet so works with flavors.

Here's a new plan:

(Preworkout)
1tbls Glycerine
3g citrulline malate
2g CEE
500mg glucuronolactone
10g BCAA
1g ALCAR
1g Choline Bitartrate

(Postworkout)
15g Vitargo
10g dextrose
10g sucrose
15g EAA
GXR

 

[boffo234]

MOst definitely cut out the caffeine. Unless you're doing cardio and trying to lose weight, caffeine is a no-no preworkout.

Enlighten me... I don't know the reason why? Constriction? BP? Why?

 

[Aeternitatis]

It's diuretic and constrictive, yes. Also it negatively effects insulin and the CNS. It can put too much stress on the adrenals and cause burn out/overtraining. It is not the kind of thing to use regularly. I know that this idea is pretty new and probably wont be widely accepted by those who love to cater to their addiction. But it is for the same reasons that HEAT Stack by Avant Labs has no caffeine. Loki (from avant) will agree that caffeine has minimal uses. If you want, go ahead and throw in a low dose for synergystic properties; 75mg would do very well. Believe me though, when you stop using the overt stims like caffeine, you start to see just how potent the "lesser stims" like ALCAR and glucuronolactone really are. Then, consider adding an adaptogen like Rhodiola rosea (cheap too) and you're really in for good effects both short and longterm.

 

[boffo234]

It's diuretic and constrictive, yes. Also it negatively effects insulin and the CNS. It can put too much stress on the adrenals and cause burn out/overtraining. It is not the kind of thing to use regularly. I know that this idea is pretty new and probably wont be widely accepted by those who love to cater to their addiction. But it is for the same reasons that HEAT Stack by Avant Labs has no caffeine. Loki (from avant) will agree that caffeine has minimal uses. If you want, go ahead and throw in a low dose for synergystic properties; 75mg would do very well. Believe me though, when you stop using the overt stims like caffeine, you start to see just how potent the "lesser stims" like ALCAR and glucuronolactone really are. Then, consider adding an adaptogen like Rhodiola rosea (cheap too) and you're really in for good effects both short and longterm.

I already use Rho/Rho and ALCAR, but I have been using AMP as of late, too. All well, I'll finish off the bottle and try to avoid blacking out. :blink:

 

[milwood]

It's diuretic and constrictive, yes. Also it negatively effects insulin and the CNS. It can put too much stress on the adrenals and cause burn out/overtraining. It is not the kind of thing to use regularly. I know that this idea is pretty new and probably wont be widely accepted by those who love to cater to their addiction. But it is for the same reasons that HEAT Stack by Avant Labs has no caffeine. Loki (from avant) will agree that caffeine has minimal uses. If you want, go ahead and throw in a low dose for synergystic properties; 75mg would do very well. Believe me though, when you stop using the overt stims like caffeine, you start to see just how potent the "lesser stims" like ALCAR and glucuronolactone really are. Then, consider adding an adaptogen like Rhodiola rosea (cheap too) and you're really in for good effects both short and longterm.

:goodpost:
this is helpful, so thanks Aeter! Who says there aren't some smart kids on this board! It pains me to think of rethinking my caffeine addiction, but it is good to think about everything. I use the other goodies regularly with good results, but I am certainly guilty of overreliance on caffeine.

 

[jmh80]

I'm going to have the disagree with the Vitargo and EAA's. As long as you've have at least 1 or 2 good meals before your workout, there is no need to spend the extra money on EAA's and no need for carbs immediately preworkout. In my opinion, carbs preworkout are more detrimental than helpful. You will already have enough stored carbs for energy and amino acids for protein synthesis, and the Leucine in the BCAA's will greatly encourage that protein synthesis.

I disagree completely.

All protein (be it aminos or food) and no carbs = burning protein for energy.

There is a reason why Xtreme Formulations put carbs (dex/sucrose) in their foumula. That is for the body to burn preferntially.

So, I think you need carbs pre-WO/during-WO.

 

[avian]

o/t: thanks a lot jhm80... now i wont enjoy having sex with the girls i know anymore...

 

[Aeternitatis]

I disagree completely.

All protein (be it aminos or food) and no carbs = burning protein for energy.

There is a reason why Xtreme Formulations put carbs (dex/sucrose) in their foumula. That is for the body to burn preferntially.

So, I think you need carbs pre-WO/during-WO.

I don't think the body is going to burn protein for energy during a 60 minutes anaerobic workout if one has already had at least 2 meals with carbs. Furthermore, BCAA are unique in their ability to go straight to work instead of being used for energy which is one reason why I reccomend them preworkout over EAA's.

 

[jmh80]

Here you go bro, read the article.

http://www.nutraplanet.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=36&products_id=145

Studies at the bottom and all.

I just can't see why BCAA's are so special. What makes them somehow inherently different than any other amino? Nothing.

The body needs energy - plain and simple. It prefers to burn glucose, and it is easier to turn amino acids into glucose than fatty acids. Ergo, the body will use the aminos that are consumed soley for energy.

 

[Aeternitatis]

You used the work "ergo"... good for you

While I do think Xtreme Formulations makes good stuff, that article was at least partially written in order to sell a product. Furthermore, the product is carbs and EAA's which is way EAA should be taken IMO. But here, check out these articles.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/beast7.htm (about HMB but check the section on Leucine)
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/beast11.htm (BCAA parts 1 and 2)
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/beast4.htm (amino acid metabolism... helps tie it all in)

And thanks to Beast for the great articles.

 

[Aeternitatis]

Okay, I gotta specifiy something. I've been arguing within the perspective of body recomp. In other words, if your main interest in muscle growth, then EAA's with carbs pre and during workout is the way to go. However, if you're in the same boat I am right now and you're trying to lean out, BCAA with no carbs preworkout is the ticket.

 

[jmh80]

The second article (I've only read the 1st page so far) is saying what I said before.

Aminos only will be used first for energy in the body in the absence of carbs.

If you don't mind wasting your BCAA's for that, fine by me.

 

[LakeMountD]

Why is caffeine pre-workout a no-no?

 

[Aeternitatis]

The second article (I've only read the 1st page so far) is saying what I said before.

Aminos only will be used first for energy in the body in the absence of carbs.

If you don't mind wasting your BCAA's for that, fine by me.

But I feel that it isn't a problem if one has already consumed at least 2 good meals.

 

[Aeternitatis]

Why is caffeine pre-workout a no-no?

Check a few posts up.

 

[jmh80]

Depending on when you've consumed the meals, the carbs in those meals would have been proceesed for engery or whatever within probably 2 hours afterwards.

Anyway, up to you what you want to interpret...