Vector and follidrone post cycle libido loss
- 07-12-2018, 04:50 PM
Vector and follidrone post cycle libido loss
Hey everyone ,
Just finished up a nice 8 week run of vector and follidrone... no complaints for the stack. However , the second I stopped my libido plummeted and my erection strength is in the toilet. I understand both of these to not be suppressive so maybe I am missing something ? Currently the usual multi and fish oil in addition to standard bcaa and cm pre workout. Any ideas ? Thanks all
- 07-12-2018, 05:07 PM
07-12-2018, 05:09 PM
Strange. Just give it time and up your healthy fats would be by suggestion.
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07-12-2018, 05:25 PM
Sounds like fatigue. I would rest and increase healthy fats. See if it changes.
http://juggernautsupps.com Code Frey10 .
Iconic Formulations and Iron Legion Code Chef
07-12-2018, 09:03 PM
That sounds about right . General fatigue and some big life changes coinciding with the end of the cycle. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't way off base with my own analysis and I had no properly prepared for the potential pct. Thanks all
07-12-2018, 09:29 PM
strange for sure... my best guess would be that the follidrone (which contains ecklonia kava-which has ed benefits) was giving you some umpf downstairs. Id say give it some time, but nothing hormonal related imo
07-12-2018, 09:30 PM
07-12-2018, 09:40 PM
Watch alot of porn to lift the libido naturally....just kidding......as you mentioned, some external stressors may be doing something
Muscle Research Code AM10 www.mrsupps.comNutrex Nutrition Rep
07-12-2018, 10:30 PM
07-12-2018, 10:50 PM
Get back on Follidrone 2.0
That said, rest and porn... wait.
07-12-2018, 11:21 PM
07-13-2018, 03:43 AM
07-13-2018, 08:23 AM
Weird. Once I stopped Vector my libido came back up, imo. No other signs of suppression while on.
Post Vector hormone panel showed my test a point below pre Vector panel, and post Vector E2 a couple points below pre Vector E2.
What I'm saying is - I can't imagine coming off Vector/Folli has any negative impact on libido. Sounds like you figured it out already in your second post, OP.
07-13-2018, 08:27 AM
07-13-2018, 08:29 AM
Perception is our reality however, so in my initial reply of getting back on. Well why not? If it helps, especially through a stressful time. Otherwise, address the issue causing it direction, and get some rest. Remove stimulants from the situation as well. That alone as advised by others would be helpful. Even increasing healthy fats, and enjoy a week off.
07-13-2018, 09:02 AM
07-14-2018, 08:14 AM
What kinda gains did you get while "on"? Would you use it again? We never really know whats in these things. No offense to any reps and it goes for every product and company. Doesn't mean we shouldn't take anything but sometimes we can get unwanted effects.
Doing Haney shrugs! Eating bodybuilding waffles!
In science you only find what your looking for....
Ask me about my bodybuilding Jambalaya!
07-14-2018, 08:31 AM
"We never really know what's in these things."
Sure we do. It's on the label.
However, here they are in more detail.
#3 Rehmannaie Radix extract
March 3, 2018
VECTOR ingredient 3 DATA
Rehmannaie radix. (RR)
RR is the third and final ingredient in VECTOR the next generation of natural ANABOLICs. RR contains within some of the most interesting ANABOLIC substances Ive seen and has a host of effects and properties that are of interest to us as athletes. RR has been used for aeons in ancient medicine but recently it has been demonstrated to have more than just health benefits. RR is an exceptional for performance enhancement, muscle mass building, strength and fat loss. Lets explore why.
Catalpol is approx 11% of the dry weight of the Rehemannaie plant. In a strong extract like the one used in VECTOR percentages can be much higher. Think of Catalpol as.....natural Doping. I see this could be hard to wrap your head around so let me explain-
*Here is a quote from a study regarding the use of genes for doping.
"the advance of gene therapy has opened the door to the possibility of using genetic manipulation (GM) to enhance athletic performance. In such 'gene doping', exogenous genetic sequences are inserted into a specific tissue, altering cellular gene activity or leading to the expression of a protein product. The exogenous genes most likely to be utilized for gene doping include erythropoietin (EPO), vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF), insulin-like growth factor type 1 (IGF-1), myostatin antagonists, and endorphin. However, many other genes could also be used, such as those involved in glucose metabolic pathways."
So they are saying in essence that by targeting these specific factors an athlete could augment themselves and become sort of a super human. Interestingly Catalpol targets most of these and more. EPO, VEGF, IGF1, Beta endorphins. Augmenting these can lead to MAJOR increases in muscle mass, athletic performance and fat loss.
Catalpol increases EPO
EPO has been used by athletes (illegally in most cases) to increase performance for decades. Well known for its use in cycling EPO when injected or when it is increased through other means leads to huge increases in overall performance. EPO increases red blood cells which in turn carries more oxygen to muscles. VO2Max is increased, overall power output is increased, time to exhaustion is increased. These boosts give the athlete a huge advantage in competition but also for those who are not competitors it allows for the same improvements making your everyday Clark Kent into more of a Superman. When combined with RRs second chemical constieunt, a strong vasodilator we have GREATLY improved performance as the oxygen rich overabundance of red blood cells are pumped through wide open blood vessels.
Vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) is a major regulator of blood vessel formation during development and in the adult organism. Recent evidence indicates that this factor also plays an important role in sustaining the proliferation and differentiation of different cell types, including progenitor cells of different tissues, including skeletal muscle, bone marrow, bone, and the central nervous system. VEGF promotes the growth of myogenic fibers and protects the myogenic cells from apoptosis in vitro and prompt a therapeutic use for VEGF gene transfer in a variety of muscular disorders. VEGF also increases angiogenisis and blood flow to muscles.
Catalpol increases IGF1 which is a well known positive regulator of skeletal muscle. Vector is a fantastic muscle building agent but we all know that in order to grow we need to eat caloric surplus.
Unfortunately as we eat more, particularly carbs, blood sugar rises and IGF1 is suppressed while IGF1 sensitivity is increased.
Catalpol prevents this drop in IGF1 leading to higher IGF1 levels during a period where IGF1 sensitivity is at its highest. This contributes to Vectors muscle growth potential.
Catalpol increases Beta endorphin release. B-EP are known for causing the often referred to "runners high" and is part of what makes us feel great after exercise. B-EP have also been shown to decrease muscle fatigue and increase glucose uptake in muscles. B-EP are in a large part what gives us the Mind/muscle connection when training. B-EP improves neuromuscular function, increases the amplitude of contractions and decreases the time to peak muscle contraction in response to nerve stimulation. B-EP can increase initial, maximum and mean muscle tension meaning strength potential.
Catalpol effectively increases mitochondrial ATP production.
Catalpol is also remarkably hypoglycemic, reduces total serum cholesterol and triglycerides. Making it a powerhouse within RR and lending itself nicely to the overall structure and potential of VECTOR.
- Is a well known iridoid glycoside with many sources but Loganin is present in high quantities in Rehemannaie.
Loganin is a fantastic ANABOLIC agent in its own right. Loganin is being studied currently as a treatment for skeletal muscle atrophy. In addition Loganin seems to possess anti inflammatory, antioxidant, glucose lowering and muscle protective effects. Loganin upregulates the Atk/mTOR pathway and increases IGF1 leading to increased muscle tissue.
Loganin has also been shown to increase skeletal muscle strength in animal studies and inhibits Atrogin-1 which prevents skeletal muscle atrophy. Further ANABOLIC potential lies in its suppression of SMAD2/3 and increased expression of SMAD7. In animals studies Loganin increased muscle mass, overall bodyweight, strength and protein synthesis making it a powerhouse ANABOLIC.
Betain is a well known constituent of Beet roots. Betain has been studied and shown to increase performance as well as skeletal muscle growth making it a fantastic component of RR and ultimately VECTOR. Betain has been found to increase IGF1 expression, as well as MyHC synthesis which can both lead to increases in muscle. In addition it is a great vasodilator and improves blood flow to muscles. This vasodilation combined with Catalpols increase in RBC from EPO makes this stuff a wicked performance enhancing ingredient.
- Improves cognitive function
- Has been shown to increase testosterone
- Increase muscle mass
- Reduce blood sugar/ antidiabetic
- Helps with gastrointestinal disorders
- Is used as a feed for animals as it increases weight and muscle mass.
- Increases Beta endorphins
- Mild opioid activity/ pain killing with out the negatives of NSAIDS
- Increases GLUT4
- Improves mitochondrial function
- Increases IGF-1
- Increases EPO/Red blood cells
- Increases SMAD7 expression
- Reduces SMAD2/3 expression
- Increases performance
- Increases strength
- Prevents muscle atrophy
- Increases ATP production
#2 KOREAN MISTLETOE
February 24, 2018
Korean mistletoe (Viscum album coloratum) 1000mg @ 100:1 extract.
(KME)is a semi-parasitic plant that grows on various trees and has a diverse range of effects on biological functions. KME has been shown to have anti-tumor, immunostimulatory, anti-diabetic, and anti-obesity properties. Of interest to us as athletes KME has been reported to increase strength, muscle mass and improve overall exercise capacity. Of course we love to hear this but these days we want to know how and why so lets explore how KME works.
One of the primary goals of the bodybuilder is muscle mass and we know of many things that lead to increased skeletal muscle. ANABOLIC androgenic steroids are the first things most people think of and for good reason. ANABOLIC steroids are wonderfully effective and can help you reach levels of muscularity that are just not possible without them. These gains, however, are not without their costs. ANABOLIC steroids lead to a host of disease states and health issues along with their status as illegal drugs. This makes them less than ideal for most people. Of course there are designer steroids and prohormones and SARMS but these too have their negatives.
*There has to be a solution
Its been largely demonstrated that nature is a beast of a pharmaceutical lab. Its hard to deny nature as we see that many of the drugs we use come from plants, including most narcotics, chemo meds, nootropics etc. Why then are there not fantastic ANABOLIC agents in nature? There are.
KME has been in use as a health agent for ages. Scientists speculated that KME may be ANABOLIC in vivo and a number of clinical studies were conducted to validate this hypothesis. KME has been proven to not only prevent muscle atrophy but also to promote skeletal muscle hypertrophy. This is important because it means that KME both increases muscle growth and prevents muscle which makes it an ultra strong muscle mass building ingredient. Mice Fed KME for 4 weeks showed increases in muscle mass and grip strength. The research indicated multiple factors leading to this result not least of which is the well known AKT/mTOR pathway. Rats fed KME showed increased whole body weight, larger quadriceps and greatly increased strength. It was therefore determined that KME is ANABOLIC as it directly leads to larger stronger muscles. In addition to greater muscle fiber area and diameter KME fed mice showed incredible increases in endurance and exercise capacity making KME an ideal candidate for use in physique, strength and endurance athletes.
KME has been shown to decrease fatigue and increase endurance. Increased mitochondrial oxygen consumption and the increased expression of PPARy lead to increases of up to 212% in forced swim tests. KME reduces plasma ammonia levels, improves fuel utilization and enhances exercise performance. In one study researchers adminstered endurance capacity tests. KME fed animals ran TWICE AS FAR as their high fat diet only counterparts which is frankly amazing 100% increases in endurance is like no other natural ANABOLIC currently available.
A big part of what makes ANABOLIC steroids appealing is the ability to build muscle while losing fat. This is the Holy Grail of bodybuilding. Fat loss while building muscle.
In a 15 week experiment KME was fed to animals along with a high fat diet. Around week 9 it became evident that the KME fed animals were gaining less weight with no differences in the amount of food taken in. At the end of the experiment the KME fed animals had 20% less bodyfat than their high fat diet only animals and when tested it was determined that the loss was adipose tissue. KME increases thermogenesis and nearly triples the amount of UCP1 (uncoupling protein 1), a principal thermogenic mitochondrial molecule related to energy dissipating in subcutaneous fat. To demonstrate the inhibitory mechanism of KME on fat cells adipogenic factors were studied.
They measured the expression levels of the transcription factors PPAR, C/EBP-a, and SREBP-1c in 3T3-L1 cells treated with KME. The results show that PPAR-, C/EBP-a, and SREBP-1c mRNA levels were decreased by 64%, 60%, and 32%, respectively. Finally they also measured the mRNA expression levels of adipogenic enzymes, such as FAS, ACS, and ACC. These adipogenic enzymes were reduced by 69%, 55%, and 22%. Overall the research indicated that adipogenic factors were decreased by 89% compared to that of untreated cells giving KME an unprecidented level of fat loss power for something that is also incredibly ANABOLIC.
EFFECTS ON HORMONES
KME has been shown to have a significant impact on the HPTA. KME leads to increased Leutinizing hormone, increased Testosterone and decreased prolactin.
This in turn makes VECTOR great for all purposes. Good alone, stacked, even during PCT.
Just a few of KME's MOAs=
In adult skeletal muscle the akt/mTOR signaling pathway is currently recognized as the major pathway regulating protein synthesis.
VECTOR activates this pathway and in turn increases protein synthesis and muscle mass.
increased leutinizing hormone leads to a significant increase in testosterone levels.
Atrogin-1 is induced in response to myostatin/TGF-b signalling leading to muscle atrophy. Atrogin-1 and MuRF-1 have been identified as important enzymes in ubiquitin-mediated proteolysis and muscle atrophy, and modulating their expression via physical activity or targeting the upstream cytokines and growth factors that regulate their expression has the potential to prevent or reverse muscle atrophy. A reduction in Atrogin 1 prevents loss of muscle. This then makes VECTOR great at helping you hold onto muscle while dieting as its ANABOLIC, anti catabolic and increases fat burning.
Both myostatin and TGF-Ŗ are held in an inactive form in the muscle extracellular matrix, and when activated, bind to their receptors and activate Smad2/3. Generally speaking we want to see SMAD 2 and 3 drop while seeing an increase in SMAD 7. This is what we see with KME/VECTOR.
#1 ERIOBOTRYA J
February 6, 2018
ERIOBOTRYA JAPONICA -1000mg/100:1 extract.
Eriobotrya Japonica (EJ) or Loquat is a fruiting plant commonly used for food, added to alcholic beverages and sometimes used for health and longevity. EJ contains a host of interesting chemicals with a number of effects that are beneficial to those looking to build muscle, burn fat or increase athletic performance. Loquat for bodybuilders? On the surface EJ doesnt seem to be super exciting but nothing could be further from the truth. There have been a number of studies indicating that the proper extract at a high enough dose can lead to gains in muscle mass, strength and fat loss. Studies indicate EJ Increases the expression of myogenic genes MyoD, Myogenin and MyHC. This increased expression corresponds with an increase in the activity of Creatine Kinase a myogenic differentiation marker. Finally EJ activates the AKT/mTOR pathway and subsequently promotes muscle protein synthesis and a gain in lean muscle mass. In studies EJ was shown to prevent muscle atrophy and increase muscle hypertrophy so its great if your cutting and want to preserve muscle and its great if you want to bulk.
Akt is known as effector of insulin/IGF-1 signalling and it can induce muscle hypertrophy through a pathway involving rapamycin-sensitive mTOR.
mTOR regulates PGC-1a expression, which is a key regulator of mitochondria biogenesis, and the expression of PGC-1a has been implicated in the control of skeletal muscle mass. The activation of the Akt/mTOR pathway and its downstream targets, p70S6K and PHAS-1/4E-BP1, is requisitely involved in regulating skeletal muscle fiber size. Acute AKT activation also leads to a decrease in adipose tissue (fat loss)
"The pathways that are sufficient to induce hypertrophy in skeletal muscle have been the subject of some controversy. We describe here the use of a novel method to produce a transgenic mouse in which a constitutively active form of Akt can be inducibly expressed in adult skeletal muscle and thereby demonstrate that acute activation of Akt is sufficient to induce rapid and significant skeletal muscle hypertrophy in vivo, accompanied by activation of the downstream Akt/p70S6 kinase protein synthesis pathway. Upon induction of Akt in skeletal muscle, there was also a significant decrease in adipose tissue. These findings suggest that pharmacologic approaches directed toward activating Akt will be useful in inducing skeletal muscle hypertrophy and that an increase in lean muscle mass is sufficient to decrease fat storage."
*Myosin* heavy-chain* synthesis* rate* is correlated* with* measures* of* muscle* strength, circulating* insulin-like* growth* factor* 1** and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate in men and women and free testosterone levels in men.
Both MyoD and myogenin genes are necessary in the regenerative process for the proliferation of satellite cells (myoblasts) and for the development of early regenerating fibers (myotubes). The expression of Myod is sufficient to convert a fibroblast to a skeletal muscle cell,
Lower doses or the incorrect extraction process has been shown to be ineffective so the extraction process is very important with EJ. So lets dig into whats inside the plant itself.
Just a short list of the chemical constituents of EJ
- Ursolic acid
- Chlorogenic acid
- Corosolic acid
- Oleanolic acid
- Caffeic acid
- Procyanidin B2
- Protocatechuic acid
- Ferulic acid
- Tormentic acid
- Ellagic acid
This is a pretty impressive list of actives. Lets take a look at what some of these do.
EJ doesnt have as much epicatechin as something like cocoa or green tea but there is still a decent amount. Its estimated that there is about 150mg per 100g in cocoa and there is about 60mg in EJ so a little less than half. None the less there is enough that epicatechin will be active especially with Narinigenin, EGCG and quercetin in the mix as these all increase the absorption of epicatechin. Lets think of epicatechin as sort of a bonus.
There is a decent dose in here at upwards of 150mg estimated per daily dose of our EJ extract but Ursolic acid is also a major constituent of another of Vectors ingredents giving us approx 300mg + of Ursolic acid per dose. Ursolic acid orally has been show in studies to increase muscle mass, Increase strength, Increase brown fat, Increase glucose utilization and increase exercise capacity. Its been stated that UA is not viable orally but I think I disagree and it seems as though studies also indicate that it is orally active although it has a very poor absorption rate. High doses are required and studies indicate 300+ should be enough orally to produce the desired results.
Corosolic acid is a GDA generally extracted from Banaba (lagerstroemia speciosa) but a significant amount is present in Eribotrya J. Corosolic acid works orally at relatively low doses and has some interesting effects. Even doses of 10mg are viable to display its impressive effects. Most people have heard of Corosolic acid for its glucose effects as it is a major GDA. Corosolic acid can help to keep glucose down with multiple mechanisms of action. Glut4 translocation, reduced insulin resistance as well as all kinds of enzymatic suppression and or expression.
-Corosolic acid has been shown to reduce cholesterol levels and enhance lipid metabolism.
-Corosolic acid is also a great fat burner not only through antidiabetic effects but also by retarding absorption of fatty acids.
-Corosolic acid is a potent and selective inhibitor of the enzyme (11-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1) that converts inactive cortisone to active cortisol. Therefore, corosolic acid may prevent excessive cortisol production.
Overall Corosolic acid is one of Vectors great components. Increased Glucose uptake into muscles, decreased blood sugar, increased insulin sensitivity, increased fat utilization and decreased fat diposition plus decreased cortisol make Corosolic a powerhouse.
Oleanolic acid (OA) is a constituent of Olea Europea, Viscum Album and Eriobotrya japonica as well as others.
Its long been used in Chinese medicine for treatment of liver disorders and other ailments. OA increases glucose utilization, is a solid vasodilator and increases expression of the AKT pathway.
- Insulin like activity by activating PPAPy.
- Decreases ROS
- Anti inflammatory
- GLUT4 upregulation
- Protects the testes from damage and stress
- Cardio protective
- Increased exercise capacity
- Reduced Blood Lactate
- Increased fat loss
Ferulic acid, 4-hydroxy-3-methoxycinnamic acid, is one of the most ubiquitous phenolic acids, found in the
bran of grasses such as wheat, rice, and oats. It belongs to the family of plant hydroxycinnamic acids, which
include caffeic acid, sinapic acid, and p-coumaric acid.* Recent studies have provided evidence that ferulic acid reduces the risk of disease, including Alzheimer’s disease, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and colon cancer. Currently, ferulic acid is used to enhance athletic
performance, both in humans and racehorses. Supplementation by it has been found to increase muscle strength in weight lifters.
In one animal study a single acute administration of Ferulic acid increased swimming time by 170%.
Ferulic acid prevented the decrease in catalase, superoxide dismutase and protected against the depletion* of* GST* activity* induced* by* exhaustive exercise.
Exercise can be associated with oxidative stress. Thus exercise can act as a powerful source of Reactive Oxygen Species, depending on duration and intensity. During exhaustive exercise, fat is typically used* as* the* primary* energy* source,* thus* sparing glycogen stores, which in turn retards fatigue. However, during strenuous exercise substantial production of ROS occurs via beta oxidation during the utilization of fat.
In addition, a dramatic increase in oxygen consumption in the body creates an imbalance between ROS and the antioxidant defense system resulting in fatigue.
Acute adminstration of Ferulic acid prevents fatigue, increases endurance and protects the body during exhaustive exercise.
CA often reffered to as green coffee extract is widely known for its antiobesity effects via PPARa agonism and by preventing proliferation of new fat cells. CA can increase muscular glucose uptake both by stimulating Non insulin dependent AMPK as well as stimulating pAKt. Great for keeping bodyfat off while promoting muscle growth.
What's in your Bodybuilding Jambalaya?
07-14-2018, 11:21 AM
3 months on vector, and 2 months on follidrone didn't impact my libido in anyway, on or off. it is still going strong at 42.
07-14-2018, 11:36 AM
@justhere4comm I get why you want to explain all that, but I think his larger point is fair considering thereís no single entity that really monitors or holds supplement companies accountable for the credibility of their claims, ingredients they put in their supplements or the purity / quality of them. I like to think that most of what Iím taking is safe, and what the company says it is, and that I can ďtrustĒ some companies, but no one really knows (unless you spend an outrageous amount of money to get it tested). Are we even sure supplement companies fully understand their own ingredients, the safety profile and side effects of them, and the safety /purity of where it comes from and is manufactured? Itís a lot to consider. I think itís only natural for us consumers to wonder if too much of some so-called good things can possibly do more damage than good from time to time. When you really think about it, the amount of trust we put in these companies and natty products is truly incredible and borders on being completely naive haha. Iím not knocking anyone specifically... itís just something Iíve been thinking more about recently as I weigh my options for my next product.
07-14-2018, 12:04 PM
You would be wise to consider these things when looking towards trusting a company. You would do well to research what they have offered in the past, and why it's no longer available for instance, then look at BLR products which have stood the test of time.
Also, look closely at anyone logging products for companies. They may say 'unsponsored' or nothing at all, but if you have been around for a while, you'll see they are in fact sponsored which is misleading and in my opinion an automatic eliminator from consideration. BLR has to my knowledge never sponsored a log, and if you find one, it's clearly marked "sponsored".
It is with this in mind I am proud to represent the brand. It's truly innovative and often copied but never really duplicated.
Look towards the future of Pre-workouts to change, and more to come!
07-14-2018, 01:43 PM
07-14-2018, 01:49 PM
07-14-2018, 03:05 PM
07-14-2018, 04:44 PM
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