Supplements for gaining muscle while cutting

[Jpv20]

Hi All!

Its great to belong to a community with so many people that is in the "Anabolic" world.

I´m 29 yrs and turning 30 in June. I´ve been training for 1,5 year quite intensively however, my goal of gaining muscle has not been achieved as i expected.

I´m now following a training plan together with some supplements which includes: Whey Protein, Creatine, Glutamine, BCAA´s, Vitamines, Casein (before bed).

I work in hospitality business, so for the last years in addition to the training, my hours of rest (which are not many) and stress didn't help as well at all. However, I´ve decided to now have a break and for the next 1month and an half, I will be free and can hit the gym everyday of the week, at the time that i want, rest as much as i want, without stress

In order to maximize the gains and with the objective of gaining lean muscle while cutting to get shredded, I was thinking at first place to take sarms (was planning to stack GW-501516 (CARDARINE9), rad140 (TESTOLONE), S4 (ANDARINE)).. When I got to see this website and researched more about the anabolic products, I get to see that there are also more "natural" anabolic products that can probably have similar effects as Sarms but with less or no negative effects..

I believe that some of you already went through the question or doubt, so I wish to know all of your opinions and expertise.

Age: 29
Height: 174cm
Weight: 158 lbs
Body fat: 18,6%
Lean mass: 71,8%
Visceral fat:5

Thanks!

 

[bb333]

Before thinking about any supplement, natural or not, I would think about your diet, how many calories you take daily, how many calories you need weekly, how much fat you get daily, how much protein you take, how much carbohydrates, and how you manage it days off.
If you have metabolic problems, if you are a resistant insulin, or not.
How much water do you drink during the day.
How do you manage your stress?

You said that you trained in this last period ... from the photos you got little, very little.

 

[VO2Maxima]

First of all, are you sure you want to cut? Obviously, I don't know your goal, and different people have different goals, but I feel that, with your stats, most people would be better served trying to put on mass first, so they don't cut and end up lean but skinny. Even if you do put on a small amount of muscle while cutting (which is very difficult, and if you were unsatisfied with your muscle gain while not cutting, you're going to be really unsatisfied with your muscle gain while cutting), it's not going to be a significant amount and I really think that if you don't try to gain weight first, you may end up disappointed.

 

[cheftepesh1]

First of all, are you sure you want to cut? Obviously, I don't know your goal, and different people have different goals, but I feel that, with your stats, most people would be better served trying to put on mass first, so they don't cut and end up lean but skinny. Even if you do put on a small amount of muscle while cutting (which is very difficult, and if you were unsatisfied with your muscle gain while not cutting, you're going to be really unsatisfied with your muscle gain while cutting), it's not going to be a significant amount and I really think that if you don't try to gain weight first, you may end up disappointed.

I would come in with the same question. I would spend time doing a bulk. I think you will gain more from it then you will from a cut.

 

[Jpv20]

Before thinking about any supplement, natural or not, I would think about your diet, how many calories you take daily, how many calories you need weekly, how much fat you get daily, how much protein you take, how much carbohydrates, and how you manage it days off.
If you have metabolic problems, if you are a resistant insulin, or not.
How much water do you drink during the day.
How do you manage your stress?

You said that you trained in this last period ... from the photos you got little, very little.

Thanks..Yes, Im now tracking my nutrition closely as well as being more careful with what I eat.. Im now also training up to 5 times per week, about 1 hour per session.. I´ve gained a bit comparing with before.. about 8 months ago I was at 63/64kg.. But yes, definitely, can't see that through pictures..

First of all, are you sure you want to cut? Obviously, I don't know your goal, and different people have different goals, but I feel that, with your stats, most people would be better served trying to put on mass first, so they don't cut and end up lean but skinny. Even if you do put on a small amount of muscle while cutting (which is very difficult, and if you were unsatisfied with your muscle gain while not cutting, you're going to be really unsatisfied with your muscle gain while cutting), it's not going to be a significant amount and I really think that if you don't try to gain weight first, you may end up disappointed.

I understand that.. I know is nearly impossible to gain muscle while cutting.. However, I would prefer to keep lean with my abs being seen rather than bulky but with no definition.. Thats why I considerer to stack the sarms which was said and seen that could probably help on that...

Im now eating well, about 2500/3000 Kcal per day.. Im now training 5 times per week as said before.. So in addition to the supplements I take, I would like to take something else to help me on my goals.. Ive seen many people writing about Vector or even the stack of Vector with Follidrone.. Would it be worth to try? Or something else?

OR would you all agree that Sarms would be more indicated to achieve my goal (obviously Im not expecting the supplement to do all the work, but im super motivated and hitting the gym 5 times per week and totally available for my workouts)..

Thanks

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

Quite frankly, steroids...

But naturally? Insane on point diet. Which honestly, seems to be your problem anyway. Judging by the pics, 1.5 years id expect you could have packed way more muscle. Seems like you arent getting the results you expect because of it. So Id look into nutrition if i were you. Learn as most you can, and experiment until you get it dialed and make adjustments.

I know its not the sexy/easy to follow answer... but its going to be the most important thing.

And patience

 

[bonbon]

Full body workout 3-4 times per week combined with semi-dirty bulk. Save cutting later.

 

[The Express 42]

It’s physically impossible to gain muscle unless you’re using AAS. I think most guys on here who claim they “recomped nicely” actually just lost some body fat and muscle is popping more, therefore looks better. Just about any natural anabolic can give you a little assist and help with muscle retention when cutting. X gels, Epi Plex, MassMaxXT, Anabeta Elite, Follidrone 2.0

 

[Jpv20]

It’s physically impossible to gain muscle unless you’re using AAS. I think most guys on here who claim they “recomped nicely” actually just lost some body fat and muscle is popping more, therefore looks better. Just about any natural anabolic can give you a little assist and help with muscle retention when cutting. X gels, Epi Plex, MassMaxXT, Anabeta Elite, Follidrone 2.0

Thanks for the mentioning of these.. Any one specially you would recommend, or just any of them?

I did read about Follidrone.. Would it be recommended? Which dosage?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

It’s physically impossible to gain muscle unless you’re using AAS. I think most guys on here who claim they “recomped nicely” actually just lost some body fat and muscle is popping more, therefore looks better. Just about any natural anabolic can give you a little assist and help with muscle retention when cutting. X gels, Epi Plex, MassMaxXT, Anabeta Elite, Follidrone 2.0

I’m having a hard time figuring out what you mean here? Clearly people gain muscle naturally. Do you mean it’s impossible to gain muscle while losing fat without AAS? That’s more reasonable, but still not entirely true. There are multiple studies on various natural ingredients showing simultaneous increases in lean body mass and decreases in fat mass. You can’t maximize either while trying to do both, but it is possible to do both to some extent if you have all the variables in check. It’s obviously more feasible if you’re not super lean to begin with though.

 

[The Express 42]

I forgot to add to the beginning of my first post "while losing fat". Nearly impossible to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously. Perhaps with a strict carb cycling diet. Definitely possible to gain muscle naturally, an exception could perhaps be an obese person Im not sure. I know you read a lot more studies than I do, but you will have better success picking bulking or cutting, rather then trying to do both. Also (not being sarcastic) Id love to hear what compounds have shown to grow muscle and lose fat at the same time because I have never heard of them. Your results would be diet dependent regardless so is there any proof these natural compounds aid that or is it just a perfect diet? Genuinely curious.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I forgot to add to the beginning of my first post "while losing fat". Nearly impossible to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously. Perhaps with a strict carb cycling diet. Definitely possible to gain muscle naturally, an exception could perhaps be an obese person Im not sure. I know you read a lot more studies than I do, but you will have better success picking bulking or cutting, rather then trying to do both. Also (not being sarcastic) Id love to hear what compounds have shown to grow muscle and lose fat at the same time because I have never heard of them. Your results would be diet dependent regardless so is there any proof these natural compounds aid that or is it just a perfect diet? Genuinely curious.

Like I said, I do agree that it's usually better to focus on one goal than trying to do both at once, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to do both, it's just more difficult and won't yield as significant results in either category.

As for what ingredients, here's some. Also, I'm not saying that you WILL notice increases in LBM and decreases in fat mass when using them, only that it's been observed in studies, and, if nothing else, indicates that it's possible to gain muscle and lose fat; regardless of the cause, it seems to indeed indicate that it's possible, even if it's not common:

Betaine:
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/1550-2783-10-39?site=jissn.biomedcentral.com

Forskolin (in overweight/obese men):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16129715

Ashwagandha (arguably; muscle size increased while body fat % decreased. It's possible that this was just an increase in LBM without any change in fat mass, resulting in a lower body fat % without any change in fat mass per se, but I still think it's relevant here):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4658772/

 

[Jpv20]

Well, now that I will likely going to order some Follirdone 2.0, which dosage should I use for how many weeks?

Any one one recommend to stack this with something else..?

Thanks,

JV

 

[The Express 42]

Whatever the dosage on the bottle says, I can't remember exactly how much. I want to say its 3 split evenly daily, not positive. Black Lion Research has and interesting natural anabolic called Vector due to come out this month. If you wanted you could add a laxogenin product, Massacre by olympus labs or hi techs laxogenin are good options. Remember supplements won't work if your diet isn't set for your goals! Try weighing things out and prep your food weekly. Makes a world of difference. Good luck

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Quite frankly, steroids...

But naturally? Insane on point diet. Which honestly, seems to be your problem anyway. Judging by the pics, 1.5 years id expect you could have packed way more muscle. Seems like you arent getting the results you expect because of it. So Id look into nutrition if i were you. Learn as most you can, and experiment until you get it dialed and make adjustments.

I know its not the sexy/easy to follow answer... but its going to be the most important thing.

And patience

Lol. Steroids will produce the fastest and most dramatic results, but I think it's too early for OP to consider using them. He should establish a more solid base of experience and knowledge dialing in diet, training, recovery, etc. He also should have a lot of room to grow naturally at this stage.

Thanks..Yes, Im now tracking my nutrition closely as well as being more careful with what I eat.. Im now also training up to 5 times per week, about 1 hour per session.. I´ve gained a bit comparing with before.. about 8 months ago I was at 63/64kg.. But yes, definitely, can't see that through pictures..



I understand that.. I know is nearly impossible to gain muscle while cutting.. However, I would prefer to keep lean with my abs being seen rather than bulky but with no definition.. Thats why I considerer to stack the sarms which was said and seen that could probably help on that...

Im now eating well, about 2500/3000 Kcal per day.. Im now training 5 times per week as said before.. So in addition to the supplements I take, I would like to take something else to help me on my goals.. Ive seen many people writing about Vector or even the stack of Vector with Follidrone.. Would it be worth to try? Or something else?

OR would you all agree that Sarms would be more indicated to achieve my goal (obviously Im not expecting the supplement to do all the work, but im super motivated and hitting the gym 5 times per week and totally available for my workouts)..

Thanks

You don't want to use SARMs now. IMO, I don't really see all that many situations to use SARMs period, but certainly not now in your situation.

But back to the original question:

-You said you're already taking creatine. That's good. I'd also add 2.5g betaine (TMG) to your creatine. As one of the studies I referenced earlier noted, it can improve body composition, which sounds like what you're looking for.

Ashwagandha and forskolin are both also solid herbal ingredients to aid in improving body composition. Several products have solid doses of ashwagandha in them. AlphaMax XT has full doses of both ashwagandha and forskolin, as well as other useful ingredients. It could be a worthwhile addition to something like FD2 you mentioned.

 

[dsade]

BMP should be restocked soon.

 

[Jpv20]

Whatever the dosage on the bottle says, I can't remember exactly how much. I want to say its 3 split evenly daily, not positive. Black Lion Research has and interesting natural anabolic called Vector due to come out this month. If you wanted you could add a laxogenin product, Massacre by olympus labs or hi techs laxogenin are good options. Remember supplements won't work if your diet isn't set for your goals! Try weighing things out and prep your food weekly. Makes a world of difference. Good luck

Thanks.. So you would recommend for a stack of MASSACR3 + Follirdone 2.0.. correct?

I also did ready about a stack of FD2, Viron and Letrone.. Could that possibly bring better results than the above mentioned by you?

-You said you're already taking creatine. That's good. I'd also add 2.5g betaine (TMG) to your creatine. As one of the studies I referenced earlier noted, it can improve body composition, which sounds like what you're looking for.

Ashwagandha and forskolin are both also solid herbal ingredients to aid in improving body composition. Several products have solid doses of ashwagandha in them. AlphaMax XT has full doses of both ashwagandha and forskolin, as well as other useful ingredients. It could be a worthwhile addition to something like FD2 you mentioned.

So would it make sense AlphaMax XT+FD2 + Massacr3 for example?

 

[DEVANS89]

You have got load of great advice already, but I'm just going to say judging by your photos I'd save the supp money and invest it in good food.

All you need to do at this stage is just eat/train/sleep

i know its not what you want to hear, because its fun to look into new stacks etc... we all do it

but seriously give yourself a good year of eating food and training then come back to the stacks and natty muscle builders

maybe just treat yourself to a preworkout

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

Lol. Steroids will produce the fastest and most dramatic results, but I think it's too early for OP to consider using them. He should establish a more solid base of experience and knowledge dialing in diet, training, recovery, etc. He also should have a lot of room to grow naturally at this stage.

You don't want to use SARMs now. IMO, I don't really see all that many situations to use SARMs period, but certainly not now in your situation.

But back to the original question:

-You said you're already taking creatine. That's good. I'd also add 2.5g betaine (TMG) to your creatine. As one of the studies I referenced earlier noted, it can improve body composition, which sounds like what you're looking for.

Ashwagandha and forskolin are both also solid herbal ingredients to aid in improving body composition. Several products have solid doses of ashwagandha in them. AlphaMax XT has full doses of both ashwagandha and forskolin, as well as other useful ingredients. It could be a worthwhile addition to something like FD2 you mentioned.

oh yeah, for sure... i just meant it in a way that what he wants doesnt really exist... there aint no natural supplement that will make such a huge impact that you can take it and build muscle while losing fat that would make a bigger difference than having a diet that is extremely dialed in... thats what i meant... perfect diet and time... i think he would be able to lose fat and build muscle tbh... he seems to be in the "noobie gainz" stage still. And its totally possible at that point.

i definitely dont recommend steroids for him at this point... he asked for something natty, and then mentioned being open to taking sarms... seems quite clear he still has a long way of research ahead of him

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Thanks.. So you would recommend for a stack of MASSACR3 + Follirdone 2.0.. correct?

I also did ready about a stack of FD2, Viron and Letrone.. Could that possibly bring better results than the above mentioned by you?



So would it make sense AlphaMax XT+FD2 + Massacr3 for example?

It’s typically recommended to try one new thing at a time. I also think two such products would be more than enough. AlphaMax XT + FD2 would be solid, but as some people said, food comes first. A solid diet, training program, and recovery are key. Supplements will give you that little boost, but can’t replace the three variables mentioned above. No real need for 3 products, and you may want to try 1 at a time to see how it treats you.

 

[Jpv20]

Thanks all for the advices.

Yes, Im being careful with diet again.. Currently on 6 meals per day..

Breakfast - 80g oats with skimmed milk, 2 eggs, coffee
Mid Morning - Red Apple, Almonds
Lunch- 250 gr chicken turkey or fish, 150g of wheat pasta and rice, greens
Afternoon - Protein pancake
Dinner -250 gr chicken turkey or fish, 100g of wheat pasta and rice, greens
Night Snack - Greek yoghurt with Casein

Pre Workout meal - rye bread, peanut butter and banana

So will be keeping this and I believe with gym things will come and results will be shown...

I was doing previously a a lot of HIIT cardio which reduced my body fat to lower levels.. but that also slowed down my gains..

 

[R1balla]

I’m on my honeymoon so I haven’t really read what others have said but I wanted to chime in.

Gaining muscle while losing fat is VERY hard to do. I usually do not recommend it because results will come slow and it can become discouraging to some. I usually suggest a cut or lean bulk. If you have the patience for a recomp then go for it.

Some supplements to help you: forskolin, FitMax, AlphaMax, ArA.

 

[jtmass]

You have got load of great advice already, but I'm just going to say judging by your photos I'd save the supp money and invest it in good food.

All you need to do at this stage is just eat/train/sleep

i know its not what you want to hear, because its fun to look into new stacks etc... we all do it

but seriously give yourself a good year of eating food and training then come back to the stacks and natty muscle builders

maybe just treat yourself to a preworkout

^^^ This is what I would recommend. Don't just jump on to the supplement wagon. You will be disappointed. There is a lot of room for you to gain muscle by just eating right, training hard and sleep well. My first year into fitness was nothing but, food, Whey (whenever I saw a deficit in my protein intake for the day), creatine, fish oil and good training.

 

[HAMinTheTrap]

Thanks all for the advices.

Yes, Im being careful with diet again.. Currently on 6 meals per day..

Breakfast - 80g oats with skimmed milk, 2 eggs, coffee
Mid Morning - Red Apple, Almonds
Lunch- 250 gr chicken turkey or fish, 150g of wheat pasta and rice, greens
Afternoon - Protein pancake
Dinner -250 gr chicken turkey or fish, 100g of wheat pasta and rice, greens
Night Snack - Greek yoghurt with Casein

Pre Workout meal - rye bread, peanut butter and banana

So will be keeping this and I believe with gym things will come and results will be shown...

I was doing previously a a lot of HIIT cardio which reduced my body fat to lower levels.. but that also slowed down my gains..

IMO seems like too many carbs and not enough protein.

breakfast and mid morning should probably get a big increase in protein content and cut carbs by 30-50%, if not more.

Did you put that together following any kind of standard/macro split? Aim around 1 to 1.5 x pounds for protein intake. I dont think you are getting even close to that.

 

[jameschoi]

Get organic quinoa, only $8 for 4.5 pounds and loaded with amino acids and ecdysteroids. Best natural food for the dollar out there. Microwave for 3 minutes and head to the gym and get YUUUGE.

Protein in Quinoa
By weight, quinoa is about 14 percent protein, a high level for a plant-based food. The yellow and red varieties of quinoa may have a slightly higher protein content than white quinoa–16 percent compared to 14 percent–according to a review by NASA. The U.S. recommended daily allowance, or RDA, of protein is 0.8 grams per kilogram of body mass, or about 0.4 grams per pound. A serving of quinoa can go a long way toward ensuring you get a healthy amount of protein daily.

Amino Acids in Quinoa
A serving of quinoa contains the following amino acids: isoleucine, leucine, lysine, phenylalanine, tyrosine, cysteine, methionine, threonine, histidine, tryptophan and valine. The precise amounts of these amino acids will vary slightly based on cultivation conditions, however, a serving of quinoa will always contain significant amounts of each. In addition to protein, quinoa contains starchy carbohydrates, dietary fiber, phosphorus, magnesium and iron. Quinoa is also gluten-free.

 

[GrizzleB]

Get organic quinoa, only $8 for 4.5 pounds and loaded with amino acids and ecdysteroids. Best natural food for the dollar out there. Microwave for 3 minutes and head to the gym and get YUUUGE.

Protein in Quinoa
By weight, quinoa is about 14 percent protein, a high level for a plant-based food. The yellow and red varieties of quinoa may have a slightly higher protein content than white quinoa–16 percent compared to 14 percent–according to a review by NASA. The U.S. recommended daily allowance, or RDA, of protein is 0.8 grams per kilogram of body mass, or about 0.4 grams per pound. A serving of quinoa can go a long way toward ensuring you get a healthy amount of protein daily.

Amino Acids in Quinoa
A serving of quinoa contains the following amino acids: isoleucine, leucine, lysine, phenylalanine, tyrosine, cysteine, methionine, threonine, histidine, tryptophan and valine. The precise amounts of these amino acids will vary slightly based on cultivation conditions, however, a serving of quinoa will always contain significant amounts of each. In addition to protein, quinoa contains starchy carbohydrates, dietary fiber, phosphorus, magnesium and iron. Quinoa is also gluten-free.

Hmm, I think I might start adding this into my diet.

 

[The Express 42]

Quinoa is awesome, I eat 30g of carbs worth daily at least. Oats, sweet potatoes and rice. Get your carbs from these sources and watch how good your workouts start to feel

 

[The Express 42]

Quinoa is awesome, I eat 30g of carbs worth daily at least. Oats, sweet potatoes and rice. Get your carbs from these sources and watch how good your workouts start to feel

 

[Studhorse]

^^^ This is what I would recommend. Don't just jump on to the supplement wagon. You will be disappointed. There is a lot of room for you to gain muscle by just eating right, training hard and sleep well. My first year into fitness was nothing but, food, Whey (whenever I saw a deficit in my protein intake for the day), creatine, fish oil and good training.

Great advice. Get that Diet in check, keep up the work and wait till you are at that point were you will see a little something from supplementation.
It's hard to say on the length of time. probably when your strength has plateaued for 3-4 months: assuming a continued good diet, good sleep and proper off time from the gym. Nothing better than a good diet!
Then try one supplement at a time to see what works for you before you start stacking. This is a marathon not a sprint.
If you want the quick fix you will have to go illegal. but you still have to do everything else right.