What happens to your body while your lipids are in bad shape?

[Zero Tolerance]

Since I plan on taking Superdrol one day soon - what typically happens to/in your body when your HDL is near the single digits are your LDL is way up?

 

[Methyl1]

Well, When you have too much LDL cholesterol circulating in the blood, it can slowly build up in the inner walls of your arteries and can form plaque, a thick, hard deposit that can clog those arteries which is known as Atherosclerosis. It puts you at high risk of heart disease, stroke and eventual heart attack. That is why you hear of bodybuilders and wrestlers dying of heart attacks, thier calorie rich diet combined with the massive AAS intake kills thier Lipid profiles and eventually causes a fatal heart attack down the road. That is what happened to Don Youngblood the recent bodybuilder who passed away.

 

[Zero Tolerance]

Thank you. Well, I don't expect anyone here to have a definite answer to this, but.. About how long would it take to do permanent damage (plaque formation) to your arteries? And once the plaque is there, it's there for good. Correct?

 

[Methyl1]

Thank you. Well, I don't expect anyone here to have a definite answer to this, but.. About how long would it take to do permanent damage (plaque formation) to your arteries? And once the plaque is there, it's there for good. Correct?

Well, good question. It just depends on your dispisition to such things and also your family's history of heart disease and heart attacks. Short term use, there shouldnt be a permanent risk or damage to your arteries. But prolonged use will definatly get you years down the road. If you do develop clogged arteries, it is not neccessarily a permanent thing, if you change your diet, discontinue the steroid use and get your lipid profiles in check and with daily cardio and exercise, majority of it will go away and not pose a health risk, on the more extreme end a triple bypass heart operation is required to cut out the severly clogged arteries. Also prolonged AAS use causes your heart to expand much larger than normal size since it is a muscle, eventually the heart will collapse upon itself due to the deteriation of the walls.

 

[Zero Tolerance]

Okay. So this is one of the reasons bloodword prior to AAS usage is important. To figure out how bad-off you already are - or how well-off you are. If my lipids aren't too hot naturally, I'll probably forget about the SD I have planned and opt for something else..

Thank you for sharing your brain!

 

[Methyl1]

Okay. So this is one of the reasons bloodword prior to AAS usage is important. To figure out how bad-off you already are - or how well-off you are. If my lipids aren't too hot naturally, I'll probably forget about the SD I have planned and opt for something else..

Thank you for sharing your brain!

That would be a great idea if your worried, since I have been reading how the SD does mess with your lipid profile. There are other options as well. ALRI has the Max LMG which seems to have great results from users and no reports of cholestrol issues

 

[Zero Tolerance]

I have Max LMG as well but I hear so much about SD that I almost "need" to try it. I wonder how effective it'll be compared to my ole Deca runs I did years ago. I never stacked it with anything - I just ran it alone..

 

[bigpetefox]

I'd say to increase Omegas (flax, evening primrose, fish oils) and look up a product called Policosanol.. :thumbsup:

 

[meathead1987]

Anti oxidants are your friend...

LDL isnt actually bad until it is oxidised by free radicals. Its oxidised LDL that causes atherosclerosis. Provided you take plenty of anti-O's you should be ok. Other essentials are lots of cardio, Fish oils(maybe sesathin) and Red yeast rice.

I dont think having bad cholesterol in the short term is too harmful, just get it back to normal in a few months and you shouldnt have any major health problems down the line.

 

[rrgg]

LDL isnt actually bad until it is oxidised by free radicals. Its oxidised LDL that causes atherosclerosis. Provided you take plenty of anti-O's you should be ok.

Thanks! I didn't realize this.

 

[lifted]

What's the best kind of anti-oxidant that helps with lipids, and all the other crap?? lol..Is taking just NAC ED good enough??

 

[Jay Mc]

Anti oxidants are your friend...

LDL isnt actually bad until it is oxidised by free radicals. Its oxidised LDL that causes atherosclerosis. Provided you take plenty of anti-O's you should be ok. Other essentials are lots of cardio, Fish oils(maybe sesathin) and Red yeast rice.

I dont think having bad cholesterol in the short term is too harmful, just get it back to normal in a few months and you shouldnt have any major health problems down the line.

I don't believe thats 100% accurate. If you have high LDL it can accumlate in lysosomes and phagocytes and cause plaques (calcium deposit scars). Most research shows damage like this is cummulative over a life time. It causes scars on endothelial walls that never go away and therefore even one use can be bad business. Antioxidants help but it would be unreasonable to think that you could completely control the increased oxidative damage you'd see in scenarios like these.

J

 

[meathead1987]

I agree. No antioxidant is going to clear up ALL the free radicals you have. Thats asking too much. I think I remember reading we produce 10000per day PER CELL in our bodies. That may be completely wrong though, cant remember where I read it.

 

[Magickk]

That's a shitload of free radicals...

 

[meathead1987]

"It is estimated that our DNA receives about 10,000 "hits" from free radicals per cell per day (Ames, 1993). "

Looks like I was wrong about the "per cell" bit.

 

[Magickk]

Still a shitload...

 

[max-rot98]

That is why you hear of bodybuilders and wrestlers dying of heart attacks, thier calorie rich diet combined with the massive AAS intake kills thier Lipid profiles and eventually causes a fatal heart attack down the road. That is what happened to Don Youngblood the recent bodybuilder who passed away.

Is this due to lack of concern for their health(lipid profile) or continuous cycling with little or no pct. I have heard of and actually know many people that continuous cycle. Example, friend at my gym did a 16 week anadrol cycle ramping up to a 200 mg dose with no pct just a 2 week break, no milk thistle or other liver protection nothing. Complete asshole that has gotten warnings from me and numerous others. Anyways are these the kind of people that have these prob. Or are these bb's and wrestler's post cycling and still dying young?

 

[knox]

16 weeks of drol?!? that is insane. I was on drol for 6 weeks and i felt like i was playing with fire.

 

[max-rot98]

Like I said complete dumbass. Damn retard can't figure out why he goes from 215 down to 181. Dumbass. Sad and ironic thing is the dude is a damn paramedic. It worries me as I have been pretty good friends with him since high school but you can only do so much. Trust me though I am not letting up on trying to help him as I don't want to see him get hurt. He told me over the weekend he would pick up milk thistle. Hey its a start.

 

[max-rot98]

But back to the topic, do these guys that die so young just completely ignore health altogether and think they're invincible such as my one friend?

 

[meathead1987]

Some do yes.

 

[Methyl1]

But back to the topic, do these guys that die so young just completely ignore health altogether and think they're invincible such as my one friend?

Well, alot of them are not educated in matters of PCT and liver care, etc.... They just hear about the steroids and think that its like popping aspirins or something. They dont know what PCT is or what the side effects are of prolonged use. They just get on it and keep going like there is nothing wrong. Then BAM, they drop dead from a massive coronary after there heart is as big as my head.

 

[BigP0ppa3]

I really doubt Olympia level bodybuilders and pro wrestlers are not educated in the risks and necessary PCT involved with heavy steroid use.

BP

 

[Jay Mc]

I really doubt Olympia level bodybuilders and pro wrestlers are not educated in the risks and necessary PCT involved with heavy steroid use.

BP

By the same token, PCT is just meant to help bring hormone production back to normal as soon as possible. It can't undo the damage to the vascular system. Androgens pose a great risk in this regard, anyone that takes them and does not believe this is no better than the people of the 70s snorting coke thinking it had no ill effect.

 

[max-rot98]

You are right for the most part Jay but IMO PCT is not just to restore test levels, this is also the time in which your body tries, with the aid of a proper diet on your part, to restore cholesterol levels to normal and your liver tries correct to the damages done.
I just have a hard time beleiving that with proper PCT, diet and training(this includes cardio) and by following time on equals time off and then some, that you will drop like a fly at the age of 40. But I do think it will be interesting to see what happens to ronnie and jay and the rest of those monsters in the future as they are the most extreme in this sport.

 

[jhferry]

Reading threads like this make me wish I never bought SD. Im 33 and scared **** to take it now. The bottomline is I wish someone knew the true negative effects of these compounds because it seems like a guessing game.

 

[PIOTREK]

Reading threads like this make me wish I never bought SD. Im 33 and scared **** to take it now. The bottomline is I wish someone knew the true negative effects of these compounds because it seems like a guessing game.

I think all of us have this in the back or our minds. Seems as though most of us agree that the "good" outweighs the "bad".

 

[Methyl1]

I really doubt Olympia level bodybuilders and pro wrestlers are not educated in the risks and necessary PCT involved with heavy steroid use.

BP

You are a 100% correct, the Olympic athletes and pro's have a clear understanding of proper PCT. But some of them just choose to abuse it or outright ignore it and continue cycle after cycle for years until there bodies are destroyed

 

[John Smeton]

Hulk Hogans still alive and i think hes done a ton of juice

 

[exnihilo]

Some people get on big doses of the juice and their blood work looks completely normal (except for the t/e numbers ). It's all genetic, you can treat a lot of the issues with very careful and judicious use of other drugs, but it's a pain in the ass and does really require an intelligent and informed doctor to keep a good eye on you.

 

[Malek256]

Well, as someone who's avoided the PH and AAS route, I can tell you it was one helluva big surprise to find my cholesterol profile had suddenly tanked to shitsville. Like a 6:1 bad:good ratio!

If I'd have assumed everything had stayed the same as my previous blood work from 3 years ago, I could have been in even worse trouble if I had not tried the "natural" method.

What I'm trying to say here is that your lipid profiles are not something to take for granted. Don't assume that because you've been "fine until now" that you will not have issues spontaneously and that PH's or AAS are going to be handled "just fine" by a body that's quietly crapping out with its cholesterol management.

I'm guessing that some of these young guys who drop encounter the scenario I've reached -- a sudden shift in your body's composition which changes all the rules.

They run a cycle (whether the first time or a repeat) "knowing" they have plenty of "safety room" -- and yet they have NONE because of a change. And it's a fatal mistake.

 

[Jay Mc]

You are right for the most part Jay but IMO PCT is not just to restore test levels, this is also the time in which your body tries, with the aid of a proper diet on your part, to restore cholesterol levels to normal and your liver tries correct to the damages done.
I just have a hard time beleiving that with proper PCT, diet and training(this includes cardio) and by following time on equals time off and then some, that you will drop like a fly at the age of 40. But I do think it will be interesting to see what happens to ronnie and jay and the rest of those monsters in the future as they are the most extreme in this sport.

First, I agree PCT should be a time of 'getting back to normal' as far as liver health and lipid profile; however, what you must realize is that the damage done to the vascular system while the lipid profile is hosed is permanent, and while the liver is said to 'regenerate' its not a true regeneration. The tissue architecture is altered and while function may essentially be normal the sensitivity to future injury will still exist. Its like when you cut your skin--there's no longer a hole in your skin, but there is a scar and the integrity of the skin is weakened to about 80% of normal forever.

Furthermore, w/regards to pro's they likely are closely monitored by doctors and take drugs the like of which most people can't imagine. The real danger of steroid use is likely carried by the non-pros, the guys just doing a couple cycles, who don't have the resources or the knowledge to do things psuedo-safely--and I'm talking far beyond nolva, liver pro, and flax! Its my opinion that AAS are not for everyone and the risks far outweigh the benefits for most individuals.

 

[Methyl1]

I checked my Blood pressure a few days ago at Walmart, got 108/64, second try 108/58 third try 108/54.

 

[Malek256]

FYI -- I have 110/75. And horrid cholesterol. I'm classified as "immediate risk".

Bad BP can tell you if something's wrong but unfortunately good BP isn't a marker that things are ok with regards to lipids.

 

[lifted]

jaymc, I can see what you're trying to say and all, and that's fine. But I know for a fact that you don't do aas and that you talk **** on people that do all the time. The same goes for everybody else that's on AE's private board. IMO you're just preaching to the choir here and for the simple reason that you choose not to do AAS for whatever reason, you try to shun away all other guys that your just jealous of. theres a difference between using responsibly and abusing. Let's quit with trying to scare the members here w/ your so-called knowledge base. Because that's what it boils down to...

Safety in this game is most important, but some of the things you say are wrong and somewhat dillusional. I have 5 doctors in my family and they all know I use hormones. Some of the stuff you say is just hogwash...and they agree.

On top of that, how would you know how our bodies react and recover when you've never used AAS!!

 

[Methyl1]

FYI -- I have 110/75. And horrid cholesterol. I'm classified as "immediate risk".

Bad BP can tell you if something's wrong but unfortunately good BP isn't a marker that things are ok with regards to lipids.

Thanks for the tip, Ill have to go to a doctor and have him check me out for a physical and see whats up.

 

[metroGnome]

When do you guys check your blood pressure? I have done it first thing in the morning and got 112/62. It that what you would classify as bp, or do you check it sometime during the day?

 

[max-rot98]

Thanx for bringin that to light lifted. Bump to the blood pressure/time question.

 

[Malek256]

Metro, you might find this link's content of use: http://familydoctor.org/128.xml So long as you've been still for about 5 minutes (and aren't nervous -- seriously it ups BP) you can get a check done at any time of day. I know it's obvious, but if you're a coffee drinker it will affect your result.

Methyl, a check on lipids can't hurt -- in my case I kind of bullied my doctor into running the test. That might have (literally) saved my life. That's a damn scary thing. I never had any issues with cholesterol when I was younger and my vitals all are otherwise great.

In my case though it looks like there's a genetic component as my mother died suddenly last year due to a heart attack as a direct result of undiagnosed clogged arteries. And so I got it checked...it's hard to believe it changed so drastically and FAST.

 

[Methyl1]

Metro, you might find this link's content of use: http://familydoctor.org/128.xml So long as you've been still for about 5 minutes (and aren't nervous -- seriously it ups BP) you can get a check done at any time of day. I know it's obvious, but if you're a coffee drinker it will affect your result.

Methyl, a check on lipids can't hurt -- in my case I kind of bullied my doctor into running the test. That might have (literally) saved my life. That's a damn scary thing. I never had any issues with cholesterol when I was younger and my vitals all are otherwise great.

In my case though it looks like there's a genetic component as my mother died suddenly last year due to a heart attack as a direct result of undiagnosed clogged arteries. And so I got it checked...it's hard to believe it changed so drastically and FAST.

Yeah, high cholesterol and high blood pressure is not good, its known as the silent killer, no warning of impending death. Sorry to hear about your mother, my condolensces.

 

[Jay Mc]

jaymc, I can see what you're trying to say and all, and that's fine. But I know for a fact that you don't do aas and that you talk **** on people that do all the time. The same goes for everybody else that's on AE's private board. IMO you're just preaching to the choir here and for the simple reason that you choose not to do AAS for whatever reason, you try to shun away all other guys that your just jealous of. theres a difference between using responsibly and abusing. Let's quit with trying to scare the members here w/ your so-called knowledge base. Because that's what it boils down to...

Safety in this game is most important, but some of the things you say are wrong and somewhat dillusional. I have 5 doctors in my family and they all know I use hormones. Some of the stuff you say is just hogwash...and they agree.

On top of that, how would you know how our bodies react and recover when you've never used AAS!!

First I've never talked **** about anyone using steroids, so relax. Second, I haven't said anything that is untrue and that can't be verified through some searching. Third, I'm not trying to scare anyone out of doing anything, I was just presenting information for people to consider and interpret as they may. As far as credentials, I've got a degree w/a double major in biology and chemistry and am a second year med student (actually about 3 weeks away from being second year). Just because I've never used AAS doesn't mean I can't possibly understand how they work. I know lots of things about the way lots of drugs work I've never used. If you are only going to take the advice of other AAS users thats fine. Ultimately I'm wasting my own time on the internet advising people I don't know. I guess maybe I should stop doing that.

I've built a body I'm quite happy w/and fail to see why I might be jealous, AAS are readily available to anyone that really wants to obtain them. Name calling is not very polite or mature. Saddly it seems all level headed discussions about this topic quickly go south. I thought up until that post things were very civil.

 

[exnihilo]

First I've never talked **** about anyone using steroids, so relax. Second, I haven't said anything that is untrue and that can't be verified through some searching. Third, I'm not trying to scare anyone out of doing anything, I was just presenting information for people to consider and interpret as they may. As far as credentials, I've got a degree w/a double major in biology and chemistry and am a second year med student (actually about 3 weeks away from being second year). Just because I've never used AAS doesn't mean I can't possibly understand how they work. I know lots of things about the way lots of drugs work I've never used. If you are only going to take the advice of other AAS users thats fine. Ultimately I'm wasting my own time on the internet advising people I don't know. I guess maybe I should stop doing that.

I've built a body I'm quite happy w/and fail to see why I might be jealous, AAS are readily available to anyone that really wants to obtain them. Name calling is not very polite or mature. Saddly it seems all level headed discussions about this topic quickly go south. I thought up until that post things were very civil.

If you have taken an extensive look at the original refereed literature on AAS, and you were able to discern unique long term effects seperate from the effects of untreated hypertension/hyperlipidemia I applaud you as that is something that expert doctors have not been able to do. Last I checked androgen induced cardiac hypertrophy was transient and hypertension/hyperlipidemia can be treated, which leaves properly monitored AAS use as *potentially* safe (and in the opinion of most educated medical professionals -EDIT: who are actually familiar with the literature on AAS- , safer than smoking or drinking).

I'm not going to knock anyone who chooses not to use, though I might give you a funny look if you want what AAS provide but decide not to use for misguided reasons. At any rate you look like you're in fine shape and if you're not looking to compete in the upper levels of a strength sport or get freaky huge, no reason to use really.

 

[rrgg]

Reading threads like this make me wish I never bought SD. Im 33 and scared **** to take it now. The bottomline is I wish someone knew the true negative effects of these compounds because it seems like a guessing game.

From reading the SD logs, at least 2 guys did post-cycle lipid tests and showed basically complete recovery. I think one did a test after 4 weeks, one after 8.

what you must realize is that the damage done to the vascular system while the lipid profile is hosed is permanent,

Is this true? If you gained any build-up in your arteries during 3 weeks of SD, doesn't the build-up loosen with, say, aerobic exercise? Sorry to be so uninformed about this.

 

[lifted]

First I've never talked **** about anyone using steroids, so relax. Second, I haven't said anything that is untrue and that can't be verified through some searching. Third, I'm not trying to scare anyone out of doing anything, I was just presenting information for people to consider and interpret as they may. As far as credentials, I've got a degree w/a double major in biology and chemistry and am a second year med student (actually about 3 weeks away from being second year). Just because I've never used AAS doesn't mean I can't possibly understand how they work. I know lots of things about the way lots of drugs work I've never used. If you are only going to take the advice of other AAS users thats fine. Ultimately I'm wasting my own time on the internet advising people I don't know. I guess maybe I should stop doing that.

I've built a body I'm quite happy w/and fail to see why I might be jealous, AAS are readily available to anyone that really wants to obtain them. Name calling is not very polite or mature. Saddly it seems all level headed discussions about this topic quickly go south. I thought up until that post things were very civil.

Okay, this thread is getting OT, so I will adress you one last time.

You've ALWAYS talked **** on AE"s board about AAS users. I can even link to a thread that you posted in reference to a good guy that was sourcing from Mass. He got busted and YOU said something along the lines of "well, he got what he deserves"....and "he should be ashamed of himself using and selling AAS" Also said that he looked like **** and that you looked better than him...lol, this is coming from a 150lb. stickfigure...lol...get a clue man. what kinda **** is that? You're a disgrace to the BB'ing community and you're two faced by coming here and saying one thing, and hten going over to AE's board and saying somthing else. You're using thispropaganda to spread your attitude, nothing more.

And if you're really in school for your ned degree, then I would go back and do it all over again, becasue you have no idea wtf you're talking about.

The reason I posted this is becasue you ARE scaring members with false/inaccurate information and it's infecting the board. Okay, I'm done...just thought I'd pass along to the other good guys here what you're really about.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Saying he looked better than a guy on AAS isn't talking **** about general AAS users. As anyone know AAS isn't a miracle drug and there are plenty of users that do look like crud Also, 150, 250, 350 doesn't decide ones intelligence about a subject. Have you ever seen most scientists? hehe.

 

[Malek256]

I don't quite know what the deal is here but I thought you should know calling Jay a 150 pound stickfigure just isn't true. The avatar here on AM is o-l-d...he has trained pretty seriously as of late. You want to know what people say about Jay on Anthony's board in regards to where he is now? Let me give you 4 quotes...these are specifically in regards to his physique RIGHT NOW compared to the avatar pic.

#1
"...all hail the skinnyguy.net champ
damn J...truly awesome!.."


#2
"...I want to look like that... You look like a completely different person! Nice work Jay ~ I would say that you very well could be the poster boy for skinnyguy.net..."

#3
"...holy mother of god you've packed on some serious muscle bro... you'r an inspiration..."

#4
"...H O L Y ... C R A P !!!
That is an absolutely AWESOME change!!! Great work man! Showin' us what can be done!! Hyooooge!.."

So I don't want to get into some BS here or anything but saying he is jealous of big guys or not a real BB'er or something...not true.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Why do I all of a sudden get a pop up for the log in to skinnyguy.net?

 

[Malek256]

Sorry , I cut-and-pasted the quotes. One of them had a link to an animated gif hosted on the skinnyguy.net site. I replaced the quotes with raw text.

 

[Jay Mc]

Let me clear the air and remake my points in absurd detail.

The rest of my post is titled, "Jay Mc's anti AAS propaganda" or "Jihad on AAS and their users, die infidels, die!"

Atherosclerosis: background.

There are many risk factors to developing atherosclerosis, some controlable, some not. Increasing age, male gender, family history, and genetic abnormalities are some of the uncontrolable ones. HYPERLIPIDEMA, hypertension, cigarette smoking, and diabetes are some of the more controlable ones. There are 7 stages of Atherosclerosis (which accounts for a **** done of deaths, 20 to 25% of all deaths in the US are due to MI, just one way atherosclerosis kills, other major consequences are cerebral infarction, aortic aneurism, and peripheral vascular disease) as outlined by the AHA. The first 4 are predominated by growth of plaques mainly by lipid accumulation. These changes can start from the first decade of life, in fact, pathological studies have shown that atherosclerotic coronary artery disease can and does begin in childhood. Furthermore, hyperlipidemia, specifically hypercholesterolemia, is largely implicated in the development of said lesions. See, LDL is the physiological transporter of fats to the peripheral tissue so when LDL:HDL gets out of whack you have a higher propensity to form athersclerotic lesions. In fact, it has been shown that elevated LDL is sufficient to stimulate lesion development EVEN IN THE ABSCENCE OF OTHER FACTORS. This is significant because the current model of pathogenesis goes like this: atherosclerosis is a chronic inflammatory response of the arterial wall initiated by injury to the endothelium; moreover, lesion progression is sustained by interaction between modified lipoproteins, monocyte-derived macrophages, T lymphocytes, and th normal cellular constituents of the arterial wall. Oxidized LDL is a hallmark of early atherosclerotic lesions and plays a role in almost all aspects of the pathogenesis.

Why I think this might be of concern to AAS users:

AAS users generally don't see a change in total cholesterol, they say a dramatic shift in the ratio of LDL to HDL. This sets the stage for all of the things mentioned earlier to start in motion, and since atherosclerosis is a chronic, progressive disease this could have weighty consequences.

What I haven't said:

I have not said using AAS will definitely give you atherosclerosis; however, there is evidence that their use, especially prolonged or repeated, could definitely cause physiological changes that would increase the propensity for the onset of athersclerotic lesions.

Your pal, Jay, the now 170 lbs stick figure.

Bibliography:

Kumar, V. Abbas, A. Fausto, N. Robbins and Cotran Pathologic Basis of Disease. 7th Edition. pg 516-524. Elsevier Inc. 2005.

I think this info is the most pertinant to the original posters question and I hope I have cleared the air for everyone else as to my concerns and believes.

 

[jhferry]

Honestly though, If all this stuff came out when SD was released I would have never bought it. In the end its my own fault because I believed the low side effect stuff without condidering it was still an oral. Now to take all these counteractive things, take blood tests. Its become rediculously expensive and seems a bit... dangerous. I hope Im wrong. I would like to use it knowing its safe. I was planning on using 20mg with a bottle of mag-10 I had (itest + 4ad) I just dont want any freakin heart damage from it.