Increased RBC from AAS and blood viscosity

[size]

This is a thought that always bounced around in my head. In general, we recognize that anabolic steroids tend to increase red blood cell count. This being the case does the increase in RBC cause a significant change in blood viscosity?

If so, does it matter? My opinion is yes.
Why Measuring Blood Viscosity Matters:
1. Clinical studies have suggested a link between blood viscosity and cardiovascular morbidity. Even when considering blood viscosity measurements in a sample patient population free of cardiovascular disease, the relative risk of a cardiovascular event between the highest quartile and the lowest quartile has been found to be at least twice as high.

2. The traditionally recognized risk factors of cardiovascular disease -- smoking, obesity, cholesterol, diabetes, gender and age -- have been shown to cause an increase in viscosity. Viscosity, as a risk parameter, is at least as good a predictor of future cardiovascular risk as cholesterol, Body Mass Index, and systolic blood pressure.

3. Only blood viscosity is able to explain the very localized nature of early atherosclerosis. Observations in both humans and animals indicate that atherosclerosis forms at sites in the vascular system where blood shear rates (flow) are reduced.

4. Microscopic and biochemical studies have identified the signaling processes that enables reduction in shear stress to change the morphology, biochemical processes, and physiological function of vascular cells (in particular endothelium), thereby starting the atherosclerotic process. An increase in blood viscosity causes a reduction in vessel wall shear stress, which in turn reduces the stimulus on the endothelium. This reduces the natural defense mechanisms and opens the way for atherosclerosis to progress.

5. Animal studies have confirmed that the atherosclerotic process can be averted by reducing the viscosity of blood.

6. Blood viscosity is a major determinant for peripheral resistance, and as such influences the work that the heart has to perform in order to maintain circulation. The clinical implications of this are significant. Angina, for example, is the result of a higher demand for heart work than the heart can cope with, and it has been demonstrated that if blood viscosity is reduced, angina symptoms can be almost avoided.

The potential for using blood viscosity to predict and develop interventions for cardiovascular disease is immense; blood viscosity may, in fact, become a critical element of healthcare tomorrow.


Discuss.

 

[canadian champ]

I find particularily interesting points 3 + 4, although 4 is incorrect in the assumption that it is the blood viscosity that leads to the initiation of atherosclerosis. It is in fact, the divergance from laminar flow that is more important in this regard. This is why atherosclerosis is more common in areas of arterial branching ; it was once thought that it was simply the vascular stress that injured this area and made it more suceptable to atherosclerosis, however the life work of Gimbrone has, in my opinion, confirmed that this is not the case. The 'swirling' (non-laminar flow) that occurs in these areas (due to fluid dynamics of the like I am not comfortable discussing) affects the endothelial cells... several of his ingenius experiments have demonstrated that such flow changes the production of transcription factor KLF-2 (krupple-like factor 2) which is now known as the atheroprotective gene. However, it is no stretch to assume that higher viscosity would affect the blood flow and cause the same end result.
Thats all I can think of now,
cc

 

[gimp]

hello size

On the surface, one would assume that greater RBC count = greater viscosity. However if we look at a sample population of people who have high RBC we would be looking at marathon runners, cyclists, etc. Their bodies naturally produce more RBC per unit than the average human so as to meet the higher demand for oxygen in the body.

So do these people suffer from atherosclerosis at higher rates than the general population? I dont think so.

 

[size]

On the surface, one would assume that greater RBC count = greater viscosity. However if we look at a sample population of people who have high RBC we would be looking at marathon runners, cyclists, etc. Their bodies naturally produce more RBC per unit than the average human so as to meet the higher demand for oxygen in the body.

So do these people suffer from atherosclerosis at higher rates than the general population? I dont think so.

Well, some of those athletes die in their sleep due to EPO usage. Ignore this though, but think about the idea of "natural". Yes, most endurance athletes are able to excell in their particular sport due to the natural tendency of having a higher RBC threshold. With anabolic steroids usage, one is forcing the state of RBCs in the body to an unnatural level.


Please note, this is just a notion in my head. I have no evidence in support other than me connecting ideas.

 

[gimp]

Well, some of those athletes die in their sleep due to EPO usage. Ignore this though, but think about the idea of "natural". Yes, most endurance athletes are able to excell in their particular sport due to the natural tendency of having a higher RBC threshold. With anabolic steroids usage, one is forcing the state of RBCs in the body to an unnatural level.


Please note, this is just a notion in my head. I have no evidence in support other than me connecting ideas.

Okay, of course one would have to compare the "un-natural" level of RBC in the AAS user to the "higher than normal" level in a marathon runner for example. Of course these two values might be "miles apart."

The general question being, is there another factor that causes detrimental "blood viscosity?" AAS also raise cholesterol levels... another component in blood viscosity.

 

[jomi822]

The idea that blood viscosity is dangerous is not new to steroid use, or so i believed.

the increased RBC count has both beneficial and detrimental side effects, but can be controlled to some degree.

it is my understanding that it is quite common among bodybuilders on large amounts of RBC stimulating steroids (namely boldelone or oxymetholone) to take aspirin. This helps to thin the blood and also prevents "painful" pumps caused by the high RBC count and helps ease the strain on your cardiovascular system.

i use bayer for this purpose occasionally.

 

[same_old]

RBC goes down when you get off the EQ or drol. it's not a permanent condition...same goes for cholesterol effects and BP effects (for the most part)

 

[keith1569]

i for one would be intersted to see a blood test of someone like 12 weeks into a eq cycle to see what their RBC is..everyone talks about how high it raises it but i am yet to see a bloodtest to prove it

 

[CHAPS]

Eq at used at amounts higher thatn 600mg/week can cause dangerously high RBC, i was talking to a guy on another board about EPO, and no he's not a cyclist he's a bodybuilder and it sounds like cool stuff, ya it CAN be quite dangerous but apparently your supposed to have some sort of blood monitor and if your blood gets to thick you pop some tylenol or caffeine i believe, that's how your supposed to run it. Those that have died were just winging it. I'll find the post and post it.

 

[CHAPS]

Here we go, here is his posts on it:


I have loads of info on this --I have used this drug before and its the best of all the drugs I have used ---the pump you get is unreal----You just have to get a hemocratic machine to check to make sure you stay around 52 to 55 and not go over that or you could get viscous blood and hypertension or clot, but you can combat that with asprin and Vit E---You take about 2000iu to 4000iu a week for 5 weeks it will take about four weeks for the red bloods cell to be produced but you can accelerate it by taking injectable B-12 and folic acid and Iron this will help aid in the production in the new red blood cells--and the effects after you stop taking the EPO last a couple a months from your last shot--which is awesome because thats the life span for red blood cells.

I explain here more detail that EPO is sold in recombinant form (rhEPO) for injection. It usually is packaged as a lyophilized (freeze dried) powder that is reconstituted with sterile water before injection. One popular form is called Epogen(r), and it is made for subcutaneous usage. A starting dosage is typically 20 i.u. per kilogram bodyweight, 3 times/week. After two to four weeks, a maintenance dose of 20 i.u. /kg BW can be taken once a week.
I also recommend using anabolics with EPO to increase the potency of the RBC's---take in mind this drug can activate alot of growth in the body if used right....

EPO use can be very dangerous if the user allows their hematocrit to creep too high. The ideal hematocrit for athletic performance is thought to be 55 (expressed in percent). Levels above this can result in "sludging" of the blood, which reduces microcirculation. This is counterproductive to oxygen transport. Additionally, at high hematocrit levels one is at greater risk for deadly vascular events such as stroke, especially if he/she becomes dehydrated during competition (which increases hematocrit even further).

In addition to increasing aerobic efficiency through greater oxygen transport in the blood, there is some evidence suggesting EPO may also have anabolic effects. EPO has been shown in rat studies to substantially increase weight gain and injury repair after surgery. Furthermore, EPO receptors are present on myoblasts (immature muscle cell progenitors) and may have a potential in muscle development and repair.

 

[Skye]

hello size

On the surface, one would assume that greater RBC count = greater viscosity. However if we look at a sample population of people who have high RBC we would be looking at marathon runners, cyclists, etc. Their bodies naturally produce more RBC per unit than the average human so as to meet the higher demand for oxygen in the body.

So do these people suffer from atherosclerosis at higher rates than the general population? I dont think so.

I would have to take this view, I need to look some stuff up (good topic) but I don't think that RBC are the main factor in the viscosity of blood, if I remember correctly its only a moderate % by volume. If I am remembering this right RBC in blood should be looked at as lyophobic colloid in terms of its overall properties. I need to look this up though as I am not sure.

 

[Pax]

I have noticed that when on a tren cycle, if I nick a blood vessel and bleed out a little... the blood comes up and just clumps and doesn't "run" like normal. I thought it was wierd, but now I understand the blood viscosity effects.

I wonder if white willow bark, the natural equivalent to aspirin, would have the same blood-thinning properties?

 

[canadian champ]

I would have to take this view, I need to look some stuff up (good topic) but I don't think that RBC are the main factor in the viscosity of blood, if I remember correctly its only a moderate % by volume. If I am remembering this right RBC in blood should be looked at as lyophobic colloid in terms of its overall properties. I need to look this up though as I am not sure.

The majority of the volume of blood is made up of the plasma component, mainly albumin. Eurythrocytes comprise 40% of the blood volume and to a much lesser extent, platlets and leukocytes. A considerable change in RBC content of the blood will lower the viscosity of blood, without question.
cc

 

[size]

RBC goes down when you get off the EQ or drol. it's not a permanent condition...same goes for cholesterol effects and BP effects (for the most part)

AAS in general raise RBC count. Yes it is true that count and values will decrease after usage has ceased. However, still one may want to quesion if this effect has any impact. This should be more concerning for users who stay on for longer periods of time(months, years).
While immdeiate impact may not be felt, I wonder if long term there may be a more damaging effect that is missing.

 

[size]

The majority of the volume of blood is made up of the plasma component, mainly albumin. Eurythrocytes comprise 40% of the blood volume and to a much lesser extent, platlets and leukocytes. A considerable change in RBC content of the blood will lower the viscosity of blood, without question.

All true and helpful information.
My thoughts on this topic are more along the lines of a long term imapct. Many AAS users use in a repeating fashion over time or others remain on AAS for long periods of time.

So do we think or know if this consistent changing in blood viscosity have any longer term effects? I honestly do not have a definitive answer but I tend to believe yes.

 

[canadian champ]

All true and helpful information.
My thoughts on this topic are more along the lines of a long term imapct. Many anabolic steroids users use in a repeating fashion over time or others remain on AAS for long periods of time.

So do we think or know if this consistent changing in blood viscosity have any longer term effects? I honestly do not have a definitive answer but I tend to believe yes.

I think to answer this question we need to look at actual values. For instance, how much does the viscosity actually change? Another important factor is the duration and also frequency of cycles. Without these answers I don't think one can come up with a difinitive conclusion... the easy (and I must admit annoying way out) is to just keep usage in moderation and I don't expect short-lived, transient increases in blood viscosity would have any permanent, detrimental effects.
cc

 

[canadian champ]

Molecular viscosity in the normal left coronary arterial tree. Is it related to atherosclerosis?

Soulis JV, Farmakis TM, Giannoglou GD, Hatzizisis IS, Giannakoulas GA, Parcharidis GE, Louridas GE.

Fluid Mechanics, Demokrition University of Thrace, Xanthi, Greece.

The purpose of this study is to elucidate, probably for the first time, the distribution of molecular viscosity in the entire left coronary artery (LCA) tree. The governing mass, momentum, and energy flow equations were solved by using a previously validated 3-dimensional numerical (finite-element analysis) code. High-molecular-viscosity regions occur at bifurcations in regions opposite the flow dividers, which are anatomic sites predisposed for atherosclerotic development. Furthermore, high-molecular-viscosity values appear in the proximal regions of the LCA tree, where atherosclerosis frequently occurs. The effect of blood flow resistance, due to increased blood viscosity, gives rise to increased contact time between the atherogenic particles of the blood and the endothelium, probably promoting atherosclerosis. Observations suggest that, whole viscosity distribution within the coronary artery tree may represent a risk factor for the resulting atherosclerosis. This distribution can become a possible tool for the location of atherosclerotic lesions.

 

[size]

I think to answer this question we need to look at actual values. For instance, how much does the viscosity actually change? Another important factor is the duration and also frequency of cycles. Without these answers I don't think one can come up with a difinitive conclusion...

I agree with you. Alot of this is just thoughts that involve moving from point A to point E without much data in between.

 

[canadian champ]

I agree with you. Alot of this is just thoughts that involve moving from point A to point E without much data in between.

An interesting discussion, none-the-less. Makes people think of potential negative effects of steroid use extending beyond the commonly understood risks.
cc

 

[size]

More to discuss?

 

[Skye]

I am still trying to find that particular info. I was wrong about blood being a lyophobic colloid, that is only true in terms of the water component of the blood. On the other hand if you look at the common drugs used to treat hypertension none of them except diuretics actually change the composition of blood. Yet it is to a large part it is the interaction of the RBC with the other proteins that is responsible for for the viscosity. I may run this one by a fiend of mine that would know a lot more then I do about it.

However I have not yet seen anything to suggest that an increased RBC would by itself cause hypertension, it would certainly aggravate it though.. Then again I need to do a lot more reading here.

 

[jmh80]

So - could methyl B-12 supplementation present a problem? (I.E. could one take too much mB-12 with respect to hematocrit number.)


CC - non-laminar = turbulent flow.