Liver damage from oral AAS greatly exggerated

RickyBlobby

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A quote from Mike Arnold you may be interested in reading:

Liver stress due to oral steroid use has been greatly exagerated, especially in recent years. Whikle responsibility towards one's health is of paramount importance, not every preventative measure takenwith good intentions is always necessary. Limiting low-moderate dose D-bol cycles to 4 weeks for this reason is one of them. In reality, D-bol is one of the more mild oral AAS per effective dose, in terms of liver toxicity. Let's take Anadrol, for instance. For a long time Anadrol has been considered one of the more toxic oral AAS, but even with this drug, oral administration was conclusively proven by legitimate univeristy/government research to result in minimal liver stress even when dosed at 100 mg per day for 12 weeks. In one particular study, I believe 30+ test subjects used Anadrol for 12 weeks at 100 mg per day and at the conclusion of the study, only about 50% of the users (which included both men & women) experienced a degree of liver stress which was "concerning" to the medical examiners. They concluded that while liver tests indicated that liver markers were above what they considered to acceptable for longer-term use, the readings gave them no cause for alarm. The subjects did not require any medical intervention and recovered fully on their own without issue. The other 50% of the subjects had liver readings within an acceptable range, indicating that longer-term treatment was an option.

Remember, Anadrol was being developed primarily for anemia back at this time, long before the advent of EPO, and it was studied extensively. Afterwards, Anadrol became the go-to drug for the treatment of Anemia, being used by men, women, and children in doses up to 200 mg per day for many months straight. The use of this medication required regular doctor supervision to ensure that health markers remained in an adequate range, but overall this medicine was prescribed to 1000's of people across the U.S and elsewhere for decades. Taking into consideration the high-dose, long-term treatment commonly employed by these patients, how many cases of total liver failure leading to liver replacment do you think occured while this medication was being adminsitered under a doctor's supervision? The answer= ZERO!

Now, with Dianabol we are looking at a steroid with a much more favorable safety profile and a reduced toxic load per effective dose. While there is certainly the potential for harm with this drug, many indivduals have used this steroid for periods of 6-12 months at doses of 20-40 mg per day (and above) without any permament harm and undergoing a complete recovery without medical intervention. The percieved need to limit Dianbol cycles to 4 weeks or less, strictly when looking at the issue from a toxicity perspective, is not a physical need at all, but a psychological one. Dianabol can be safely used, pre-existing conditions aside, under normal circumstances for 10-12 weeks at commonly recommended doses. Running a very moderate cycle, such as 50 mg/day for 8 weeks, is a breeze for the liver, relatively speaking. In addition, with all the numerois and effective liver protection supps available on the market today, the need for concern is further dminished.

By far, the #1 health problem facing BB'rs today are cardiovascular health issues. Oral AAS are a primary contributer to this aspect of a BBr's health, but by taking the proper precautions to maintain proper lipid ratios, hematocrit levels, and blood pressure, we can greatly reduce the risk of these health probelms occuring.
 
Renew1

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There you go kids....line up, shovel em down! You knew it all along. I heard that in "one study" that 100% of individuals not only got huge, but also became rich, and all lived over the age of 100.
 
RickyBlobby

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If I'm not mistaken, Arnold sayed on dbol for the majority of the year, for years on end. And as far as I know he has not had a liver transplant or major health problems..
 
Renew1

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He cited (but did not name) a study or two. But there are many studies available online that show quite the opposite (as far as damage goes). I'm posting a link to one below. In it, they studied Anavar, in mostly moderate dosages. It was the first study that popped up for me at the moment, is why I chose that one. .....but there are many available. I wish that what he was saying was true, but I just don't believe it, from what I've seen, and read. I've seen guys turn yellow in two weeks (just for instance).

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2006/02/5391/anabolic-steroid-use-increases-heart-attack-risk-and-causes-liver-damage
 

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Maybe you can get away with that length cycle for dbol (I don't really know)... but try that with M1T or superdrol and you'll look like a walking banana. Compounds matter.
 

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And yet mild, non-methylated compounds like 1-Andro and 4-Andro can raise liver ALT and AST values. So d-bol is safer?
 
MrKleen73

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He cited (but did not name) a study or two. But there are many studies available online that show quite the opposite (as far as damage goes). I'm posting a link to one below. In it, they studied Anavar, in mostly moderate dosages. It was the first study that popped up for me at the moment, is why I chose that one. .....but there are many available. I wish that what he was saying was true, but I just don't believe it, from what I've seen, and read. I've seen guys turn yellow in two weeks (just for instance).

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2006/02/5391/anabolic-steroid-use-increases-heart-attack-risk-and-causes-liver-damage
This is not a study, it is an article based on someone's interpretation of a study. Also the language in it leads the intelligent reader to believe that the statement SOME men had level III and IV liver toxicity means that it was a very small group of men. Otherwise they would have latched on to the number in order to show how dangerous it is since that is the goal of the article in the first place. It also said that the men had level 3 or 4 toxicity, NOT DAMAGE but toxicity. On top of this we all pretty much know that short of cancer or cirrhosis there is not much the liver can not recover from. You can cut it in half and it will regenerate... It will most definitely recover from most cycles. I won't dismiss that if not taken care of the liver will cause problems but the bigger health risks associated with gear is on the heart and lipids.

See this statement from "https://uihc.org/health-library/liver-disease-frequently-asked-questions"
"Can liver damage be reversed?
The liver is a unique organ. It is the only organ in the body that is able to regenerate. With most organs, such as the heart, the damaged tissue is replaced with scar, like on the skin. The liver, however, is able to replace damaged tissue with new cells. If up to 50 - 60 percent of the liver cells may be killed within 3 - 4 days in an extreme case like a Tylenol overdose, the liver will repair completely after 30 days if no complications arise."

It is the livers ability to regenerate that Arnold is referring too. It heals itself, nothing is saying that toxicity doesn't get high, the specifics of Arnold's statement is that long term damage does not happen very often, and not that markers do not get elevated.

I know a guy who runs dbol all the time, he just drinks 2 gallons of water a day to help keep toxicity lower and he never has an issue. He gets blood work on all of his cycles too, so it isn't just an assumption that all is well. Sure there are also those guys who turn yellow within 2 weeks on something. However 9/10 times they are not drinking enough fluids and often drinking on cycle. Other than that they often already had a challenged liver and the gear exacerbated it. Either way though you have to admit both of these scenarios are considered outliers, or not representative of the common experience.

Not recommending no support supps. TUDCA can prevent most liver based issues from getting bad enough that they effect your health. The fact they keep the bile ducts open prevents most of the damage and scarring because the toxicity does not get stuck in the liver and is able to be released. It is when the bile ducts get clogged up that liver enzymes start skyrocketing and concern for things like not feeling well, dark urine, constipation, lack of appetite, or even jaundice.

The take away here is not "Don't use support supps orals are safe." it is more to the point, here are the more realistic longer term effects of methylated orals on the liver, and health risks are not as prevalent as most would have you believe. Keep in mind he specified long term health risk, not an acute reaction like out of range enzymes. Of course your enzymes are out of range when on cycle your toxin levels are increased higher than normal, so will the enzymes that the liver uses to clear them... The livers ability to regenerate makes the acute issues far less of a threat to overall health.

All this is really saying is if you have your crap together running a 12 week cycle isn't going to be much harder on you in the long run than an 8 week cycle. Bottom line though, use responsibly.
 
Renew1

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"All this is really saying is if you have your crap together running a 12 week cycle isn't going to be much harder on you in the long run than an 8 week cycle."

That's bogus. If that were true, then might we not also say the same thing about 20 weeks...and then 40?

...And I was talking about Mr. Arnold not naming the studies (which he didn't), not you.
 
MrKleen73

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"All this is really saying is if you have your crap together running a 12 week cycle isn't going to be much harder on you in the long run than an 8 week cycle."

That's bogus. If that were true, then might we not also say the same thing about 20 weeks...and then 40?


...And I was talking about Mr. Arnold not naming the studies (which he didn't), not you.
Of course you didn't mean me... this was my first response in the thread. However you mentioned him not citing the studies then referred us to what you said was a study which was just an article like the one the OP posted. I ws expecting to see a study not someone else's opinions and no data.

Considering the mention of the studies which could be found if you wanted to look for them. Why would Mr Arnold mention them if they didn't exist. It is kind of his stick, you know being an anabolic guru, and one of the more knowledgeable people on most things AAS.

As far as what is bolded in your quote, are you saying it is bogus because there shoudn't be any suggested guidelines at all since human nature is to push the envelope? I didn't pull the 12 weeks out of nowhere, it is the longest cycle time that he said he would deem it safe. I myself have run Anavar @80mgs a day for 10 weeks without any issue and my blood work was stellar 4 weeks post cycle.

It is pretty clear he is making some best practice suggestions here, and saying that a 10-12 week cycle of DBol with liver support supplements can be used safely pre-existing conditions aside. He also cited a history of it being used as a medicine not resulting in any liver related deaths. Again something you can check on if you don't want to buy into it. Just look it up, anadrol for anemia and I am sure you can find some of the proof if you need studies.

"Now, with Dianabol we are looking at a steroid with a much more favorable safety profile and a reduced toxic load per effective dose. While there is certainly the potential for harm with this drug, many indivduals have used this steroid for periods of 6-12 months at doses of 20-40 mg per day (and above) without any permament harm and undergoing a complete recovery without medical intervention. The percieved need to limit Dianbol cycles to 4 weeks or less, strictly when looking at the issue from a toxicity perspective, is not a physical need at all, but a psychological one. Dianabol can be safely used, pre-existing conditions aside, under normal circumstances for 10-12 weeks at commonly recommended doses. Running a very moderate cycle, such as 50 mg/day for 8 weeks, is a breeze for the liver, relatively speaking. In addition, with all the numerois and effective liver protection supps available on the market today, the need for concern is further dminished."
 
Cgkone

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If I'm not mistaken, Arnold sayed on dbol for the majority of the year, for years on end. And as far as I know he has not had a liver transplant or major health problems..
He's had heart issues...but so has my aunt and she's never used AAS.
 
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MrKleen73

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He's had heart issues...but so has my aunt and she's never used AAS.
And he mentions that the heart and lipids are what are truly the bigger dangers.
 
Renew1

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Of course you didn't mean me... this was my first response in the thread. However you mentioned him not citing the studies then referred us to what you said was a study which was just an article like the one the OP posted. I ws expecting to see a study not someone else's opinions and no data.

Considering the mention of the studies which could be found if you wanted to look for them. Why would Mr Arnold mention them if they didn't exist. It is kind of his stick, you know being an anabolic guru, and one of the more knowledgeable people on most things AAS.

As far as what is bolded in your quote, are you saying it is bogus because there shoudn't be any suggested guidelines at all since human nature is to push the envelope? I didn't pull the 12 weeks out of nowhere, it is the longest cycle time that he said he would deem it safe. I myself have run Anavar @80mgs a day for 10 weeks without any issue and my blood work was stellar 4 weeks post cycle.

It is pretty clear he is making some best practice suggestions here, and saying that a 10-12 week cycle of DBol with liver support supplements can be used safely pre-existing conditions aside. He also cited a history of it being used as a medicine not resulting in any liver related deaths. Again something you can check on if you don't want to buy into it. Just look it up, anadrol for anemia and I am sure you can find some of the proof if you need studies.

"Now, with Dianabol we are looking at a steroid with a much more favorable safety profile and a reduced toxic load per effective dose. While there is certainly the potential for harm with this drug, many indivduals have used this steroid for periods of 6-12 months at doses of 20-40 mg per day (and above) without any permament harm and undergoing a complete recovery without medical intervention. The percieved need to limit Dianbol cycles to 4 weeks or less, strictly when looking at the issue from a toxicity perspective, is not a physical need at all, but a psychological one. Dianabol can be safely used, pre-existing conditions aside, under normal circumstances for 10-12 weeks at commonly recommended doses. Running a very moderate cycle, such as 50 mg/day for 8 weeks, is a breeze for the liver, relatively speaking. In addition, with all the numerois and effective liver protection supps available on the market today, the need for concern is further dminished."

Regarding your Anavar usage, you would seem to be an exception, if the study I posted was legitimate.

(Sorry for mixing you up with OP in my comment, I am on my phone, and just glanced at the pic)
 
MrKleen73

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Regarding your Anavar usage, you would seem to be an exception, if the study I posted was legitimate.

(Sorry for mixing you up with OP in my comment, I am on my phone, and just glanced at the pic)
Well from reading the article, it looks like they are doing the testing on people while still on Anavar. Which was kind of my point mentioning my bloodwork at 4 weeks post cycle. Your enzymes are going to be elevated, and cells may be getting damaged while on something that is even mildly toxic. However due to the amazing regeneration of the liver you are often back at baseline within a month. That is why I mentioned that a liver can regrow from a half a liver, and then copied the text from that liver specific site I copied the link into on my original post. They mention that 50-60% of the cells in the liver could have been killed due to something like a tylenol overdose and it would be completely recovered within a month. It is the livers ability to recover from acute toxicity that makes the long term liver based health issues unlikely. I would love to see a test of those people who had out of range liver values from the Anavar 1 month post cycle. I am relatively certain my numbers were out of range while on cycle, but I was testing recovery, and my AST and ALT values were on the lower end of normal range at 4 weeks post cycle.

He isn't saying there isn't damage but I think that damage is a normal part of the process, that is why it is so regenerative in the first place. Liver is there to clean out toxins when it does sometimes the tissue dies and is excreted with those toxins as well. Then it is regenerated, that is the cycle.

Most of your problems on how you feel, and jaundice and things like that come from the bile ducts getting clogged up so controlling that aspect of it is important in MY PERSONAL OPINION. TUDCA is the best OTC supplement for this, and that prevents a lot of the damage by allowing toxins to be excreted instead of stuck in the liver wreaking havoc.
 
Hyde

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But the liver is a bad ass organ.
It can take a beating.
Yes it can. Honestly it can probably take more toxicity than I can tolerate in sides like loss of appetite from the strain.

I have read the actual pubmed on Anadrol, Anavar, and Dbol use on those with anemia, burn victims, children with hypogonadism. All of it suggests that other than virilization, there are no long term liver effects of concern for otherwise healthy individuals - using dosages and durations many heavily experienced men wouldn’t consider.

Beast posted all of it on this forum while he was pursuing his grad studies and had access to it for free. It’s probably still here.

In any case, frequent blood work will always tell you the truth for you. We can tell each other about studies all day, but your blood won’t lie.
 
Cgkone

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Yes it can. Honestly it can probably take more toxicity than I can tolerate in sides like loss of appetite from the strain.

I have read the actual pubmed on Anadrol, Anavar, and Dbol use on those with anemia, burn victims, children with hypogonadism. All of it suggests that other than virilization, there are no long term liver effects of concern for otherwise healthy individuals - using dosages and durations many heavily experienced men wouldn’t consider.

Beast posted all of it on this forum while he was pursuing his grad studies and had access to it for free. It’s probably still here.

In any case, frequent blood work will always tell you the truth for you. We can tell each other about studies all day, but your blood won’t lie.
Exactly.
Even if my liver can run Dbol 12 weeks.....I can't even imagine the sides
 
MrKleen73

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Exactly.
Even if my liver can run Dbol 12 weeks.....I can't even imagine the sides
Around 30mgs probably not too bad... getting into 50 and up I bet things get a little rough. I hate liver sides, I will shut an oral cycle down in a heartbeat if I start feeling them and can't fix it with a bump in my TUDCA dose.

Hell right now I have a lot of orals that I am probably never going to use. My goals are different and my health is a bigger priority. I keep considering writing gear off completely other than my TRT. Only problem is I bought in quantity and now I would have to trash them or find someone I trust to sell them off too. Neither of those options sound attractive to me.

Plus the idea f not ever running a cycle again is a bummer too in a lot of ways...
 
FRITZBLITZZ

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LIVER TOXICITY IS OVER EXADURATED !!! Most of the liver toxic hype comes from when SD,M1T, Phera were all OTC and guys were running 4x the dose for 8-12 weeks without any support supps. I have ran SD for 6 weeks and with good liver+ my enzymes didn't move a bit. I believe i could run SD at 30mg for 8 weeks and still not upset my liver values. I knew guys that ran Dbol, or M1T, or Adrol for 12 weeks, and this was before I got into AAS but they never had any liver issues.

One thing most of you forgot to mention is the users liver health/strength. Some ppl have strong livers that can take 4x the abuse than other ppl. Another thing is that the liver adapts to breaking down a specific molecule that it is repeatedly exposed to. So the more often you run SD the easier it is for the liver to deal with. So all the stories of guys running Dbol for most of the year are true and the reason they could do that is the liver's ability to adapt to processing a certain toxin and just like some alcoholics have livers that aren't really damaged because the liver becomes used to processing that certain toxin.
 

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LIVER TOXICITY IS OVER EXADURATED !!! Most of the liver toxic hype comes from when SD,M1T, Phera were all OTC and guys were running 4x the dose for 8-12 weeks without any support supps. I have ran SD for 6 weeks and with good liver+ my enzymes didn't move a bit. I believe i could run SD at 30mg for 8 weeks and still not upset my liver values. I knew guys that ran Dbol, or M1T, or Adrol for 12 weeks, and this was before I got into AAS but they never had any liver issues.
You got to have big balls to run SD or M1T for 12 weeks.... because otherwise they'll shrivel up into peas.
 
MrKleen73

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Man SD just kicks my ass!!! I never tried M1T I think I came into the designer game just after it was banned.
 
FRITZBLITZZ

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Man SD just kicks my ass!!! I never tried M1T I think I came into the designer game just after it was banned.
i think that's another thing ppl don't consider. i may be able to tolerate SD better than the average person, and maybe not so much on a diff oral. your body communicates with you, if you are poisoning it to a level of harm it makes you feel like sh1t. you always have to listen to your body.
 
MrKleen73

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i think that's another thing ppl don't consider. i may be able to tolerate SD better than the average person, and maybe not so much on a diff oral. your body communicates with you, if you are poisoning it to a level of harm it makes you feel like sh1t. you always have to listen to your body.
Yeah I have run DMZ and Epistane very high, but 2 weeks on 20mg of SD had me feeling ill, not wanting to eat, and pissing what looked like Guinness Stout. I HAD to stop running it. A week after I stopped all symptoms were gone, and I felt great again. Man I recomped like a mofo those 2 weeks though. The stuff was amazing in that aspect.
 

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A quote from Mike Arnold you may be interested in reading:

Liver stress due to oral steroid use has been greatly exagerated, especially in recent years. Whikle responsibility towards one's health is of paramount importance, not every preventative measure takenwith good intentions is always necessary. Limiting low-moderate dose D-bol cycles to 4 weeks for this reason is one of them. In reality, D-bol is one of the more mild oral AAS per effective dose, in terms of liver toxicity. Let's take Anadrol, for instance. For a long time Anadrol has been considered one of the more toxic oral AAS, but even with this drug, oral administration was conclusively proven by legitimate univeristy/government research to result in minimal liver stress even when dosed at 100 mg per day for 12 weeks. In one particular study, I believe 30+ test subjects used Anadrol for 12 weeks at 100 mg per day and at the conclusion of the study, only about 50% of the users (which included both men & women) experienced a degree of liver stress which was "concerning" to the medical examiners. They concluded that while liver tests indicated that liver markers were above what they considered to acceptable for longer-term use, the readings gave them no cause for alarm. The subjects did not require any medical intervention and recovered fully on their own without issue. The other 50% of the subjects had liver readings within an acceptable range, indicating that longer-term treatment was an option.

Remember, Anadrol was being developed primarily for anemia back at this time, long before the advent of EPO, and it was studied extensively. Afterwards, Anadrol became the go-to drug for the treatment of Anemia, being used by men, women, and children in doses up to 200 mg per day for many months straight. The use of this medication required regular doctor supervision to ensure that health markers remained in an adequate range, but overall this medicine was prescribed to 1000's of people across the U.S and elsewhere for decades. Taking into consideration the high-dose, long-term treatment commonly employed by these patients, how many cases of total liver failure leading to liver replacment do you think occured while this medication was being adminsitered under a doctor's supervision? The answer= ZERO!

Now, with Dianabol we are looking at a steroid with a much more favorable safety profile and a reduced toxic load per effective dose. While there is certainly the potential for harm with this drug, many indivduals have used this steroid for periods of 6-12 months at doses of 20-40 mg per day (and above) without any permament harm and undergoing a complete recovery without medical intervention. The percieved need to limit Dianbol cycles to 4 weeks or less, strictly when looking at the issue from a toxicity perspective, is not a physical need at all, but a psychological one. Dianabol can be safely used, pre-existing conditions aside, under normal circumstances for 10-12 weeks at commonly recommended doses. Running a very moderate cycle, such as 50 mg/day for 8 weeks, is a breeze for the liver, relatively speaking. In addition, with all the numerois and effective liver protection supps available on the market today, the need for concern is further dminished.

By far, the #1 health problem facing BB'rs today are cardiovascular health issues. Oral AAS are a primary contributer to this aspect of a BBr's health, but by taking the proper precautions to maintain proper lipid ratios, hematocrit levels, and blood pressure, we can greatly reduce the risk of these health probelms occuring.
I’m in pharmacy school and knownthat anavar is a routine medicine used post burn in children as young as 5. They stay on it continuously without breaks for two years usually, sometimes as long as five years. They’re usually on 5mg twice a day in patients under 18. 10mg twice a day for those over 18.
 

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Man SD just kicks my ass!!! I never tried M1T I think I came into the designer game just after it was banned.
I hear the back pumps on SD are brutal - and I just started struggling like hell with the back pumps on hdrol right now. I don't think I've ever been more excited awaiting a big fat tub of taurine!
 
MrKleen73

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I hear the back pumps on SD are brutal - and I just started struggling like hell with the back pumps on hdrol right now. I don't think I've ever been more excited awaiting a big fat tub of taurine!
Oh man back pumps suck, calve and tibial pumps are horrible too! I got them so bad once, I was running 60mg epistane and went out for a walk near the bayou near my work. My calves and tibialis (muscle on the front of the shin) got so pumped on the way back I honestly couldn't walk any more. I had to stop and waited about 5 minutes then made it about another block, then had to sit and wait for about 20 minutes before I could walk back to work. Ended up clocking in about 20 minutes late from lunch. Man that got excruciating because I pushed as far as I could trying to get back to work in time. Once I got here I sat at my desk and answered emails for 30 minutes before even trying to walk again...

I recommend adding in some magnesium too, it will help even more combined with the taurine.
 

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Oh man back pumps suck, calve and tibial pumps are horrible too! I got them so bad once, I was running 60mg epistane and went out for a walk near the bayou near my work. My calves and tibialis (muscle on the front of the shin) got so pumped on the way back I honestly couldn't walk any more. I had to stop and waited about 5 minutes then made it about another block, then had to sit and wait for about 20 minutes before I could walk back to work. Ended up clocking in about 20 minutes late from lunch. Man that got excruciating because I pushed as far as I could trying to get back to work in time. Once I got here I sat at my desk and answered emails for 30 minutes before even trying to walk again...

I recommend adding in some magnesium too, it will help even more combined with the taurine.
Thanks for the tip! I was doing well for the first 2 weeks but today was officially my breaking point and really affected my workout too and prevented me from doing cardio. Really pissed me off. The taurine will be here tomorrow so I'm thinking of dosing it at like 5-7 grams 2X per day and then adjust accordingly? How much magnesium do you recommend?
 
Renew1

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I’m in pharmacy school and knownthat anavar is a routine medicine used post burn in children as young as 5. They stay on it continuously without breaks for two years usually, sometimes as long as five years. They’re usually on 5mg twice a day in patients under 18. 10mg twice a day for those over 18.
I'd like to know what it does to their body composition over an extended period (muscle-wise).
 

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I hate liver sides, I will shut an oral cycle down in a heartbeat if I start feeling them and can't fix it with a bump in my TUDCA dose.
What do liver sides feel like? Yellow jaundice, sleeping 12 hours a day. By then it's a little less late isn't it. Your ALT and AST will be way elevated giving a cause for concern way before you feel anything.
 
FRITZBLITZZ

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What do liver sides feel like? Yellow jaundice, sleeping 12 hours a day. By then it's a little less late isn't it. Your ALT and AST will be way elevated giving a cause for concern way before you feel anything.
LOL no bro what youre describing is when the liver has past the point where it can keep up with toxins. Liver sides are extreme lethargy, soreness to the right rear side of body [where liver is] darker orange urine, usually diarrhea, muscle soreness does not go away for a few days.
Overall it feels like the worst hangover youve ever had. But honestly I had a bro running a Test, Deca, Dbol cycle no extreme MGs and he came down with liver fatigue. Barely could work out ect. I gave him some liver detox pills and a bottle of 1000mg vite c and 3 days later it was completely gone. But I told that moron that he needed to run liver+, lipid+, heart+, and drink tons of water no matter what cycle you are on.
 
Hyde

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I'd like to know what it does to their body composition over an extended period (muscle-wise).
The most jacked 3rd grader you’ve ever seen lol

LOL no bro what youre describing is when the liver has past the point where it can keep up with toxins. Liver sides are extreme lethargy, soreness to the right rear side of body [where liver is] darker orange urine, usually diarrhea, muscle soreness does not go away for a few days.
Overall it feels like the worst hangover youve ever had. But honestly I had a bro running a Test, Deca, Dbol cycle no extreme MGs and he came down with liver fatigue. Barely could work out ect. I gave him some liver detox pills and a bottle of 1000mg vite c and 3 days later it was completely gone. But I told that moron that he needed to run liver+, lipid+, heart+, and drink tons of water no matter what cycle you are on.
Water isn’t magic, but nothing is as crucial as large amounts of water. Extra electrolytes can be added to avoid dehydration when drinking excessive quantities, but you can’t get the flushing without it.

People wanna take a bunch of drugs but you’ll see men over 200lbs sweating in training and not even hitting a gallon a day of water. It’s crazy to me.
 

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I'd like to know what it does to their body composition over an extended period (muscle-wise).
First 30 days of inpatient they gain 10% lbm. Controls lost 8%. This is all while bed ridden.
 
Renew1

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First 30 days of inpatient they gain 10% lbm. Controls lost 8%. This is all while bed ridden.
Thanks bro. I had known they used it for burns, and other uses...and had always wondered about that.
 
Nac

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If I'm not mistaken, Arnold sayed on dbol for the majority of the year, for years on end. And as far as I know he has not had a liver transplant or major health problems..
Bro, cmon. Cgkone has already adeptly shown why this kind of logic sux but Id hate to think there are lurkers out there who might use this kind of thinking to justify something quite dum and unnecessarily risky.
 
Renew1

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Bro, cmon. Cgkone has already adeptly shown why this kind of logic sux but Id hate to think there are lurkers out there who might use this kind of thinking to justify something quite dum and unnecessarily risky.
Yep.
 
RickyBlobby

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I'd like to know how AAS like DBOL, VAR, DROL stack up to Tylenol as far as liver damage. I have family members who have been on pain pills for 20+ years and I'm talking 10 grams of Tylenol a day. And drinking a half a fifth to a whole fifth of crown daily quite regularly And they haven't had any liver problems that required hospitalization.
 
Nac

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But who was lipids? BP? Arterial damage?

Managing pain longterm is obviously quite different to cruising on dbol for te gainz
 
RickyBlobby

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But who was lipids? BP? Arterial damage?

Managing pain longterm is obviously quite different to cruising on dbol for te gainz
I am not doubting the potential damage to the heart. herefore I would recommend cycle support to minimize internal organ damage. But from a liver standpoint, which is the main concern when dealing with oral cycle length I don't think there is much to worry about unless you start feeling really bad/ turnin yellow.

All AAS pose a risk to the heart if I'm not mistaken, and most guys hit 10-16 week cycles of (sometimes) harsh injectables.
 
Nac

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Yes, of course all AAS pose a risk. But that doesnt mean those risks are equal across the board.

You seem to be lumping all orals together as if they posed equal health risk.
 
RickyBlobby

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Yes, of course all AAS pose a risk. But that doesnt mean those risks are equal across the board.

You seem to be lumping all orals together as if they posed equal health risk.
I'm just saying. When people run tren for 10-16 weeks no one mentions the cardiovascular risk. But if you talk about doing even a mild oral like HDROL, DBOL or VAR for more than 6 weeks everyone has something to say about the liver damage and how your liver will be destroyed.
 
Nac

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Ah. Cos you mentioned tylenol/pain management etc I thought you were still going on about longterm "cruising" with oral AAS.
 
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21CAFF46-D0E5-4220-BBFC-8209E650E2AF.jpeg

Peep these numbers from 8 weeks of a high dosed methylated oral stacked with 3 non-methyl orals and no test.
 
Jebrook

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This was 100-120 mg daily of Methyldiazirinol
330 mg 1-andro
440-550 4-andro
250 mg 11-KT

Clean diet. Good hydration. Drank moderately twice during the whole 8 weeks.
 

2kvette

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I'd like to know how AAS like DBOL, VAR, DROL stack up to Tylenol as far as liver damage. I have family members who have been on pain pills for 20+ years and I'm talking 10 grams of Tylenol a day. And drinking a half a fifth to a whole fifth of crown daily quite regularly And they haven't had any liver problems that required hospitalization.
If they are alive it’s a miracle, idk how that’s possible. They certainly have significant liver damage by now and probably quiet a bit of cirrhosis.
 
RickyBlobby

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Ah. Cos you mentioned tylenol/pain management etc I thought you were still going on about longterm "cruising" with oral AAS.
I don't think its a good idea to cruise on anything. Even test shoul be 80 to 100mg max when cruising/ TRT. Blasts, that's different lol
 
RickyBlobby

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If they are alive it’s a miracle, idk how that’s possible. They certainly have significant liver damage by now and probably quiet a bit of cirrhosis.
Possible, but we are talking 20+ years straight here and they still have a functioning liver. Do you really think 50mg of DBOL a day would be harsher than this?
 

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This was 100-120 mg daily of Methyldiazirinol
330 mg 1-andro
440-550 4-andro
250 mg 11-KT

Clean diet. Good hydration. Drank moderately twice during the whole 8 weeks.
How long did it take you to recover? I can't tell you how many people think they are good because they "feel fine." I didn't get shutdown because I "feel fine." Blood pressure, liver and cholesterol were all good because I "felt fine." Bloodwork can often contradict one's feelings.
 
Chados

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The liver damage is overly exagerated yes 100% it is. There are so many medicine's we take that can kill us instantly. It's still like playing Russian roulette because just like with alcohol not every man will do as well drinking every day as the neighbour who lives until 110. Problem with aas is that we probably never do the recommended dosage whatever that is right?
 
Jebrook

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How long after the cycle were these taken?
2-3 days after. I can post the follow up post pct bloods later. Values recovered quickly but were still a tad high after pct. This was 2 years ago. Everything is tip top now and I don’t take methyls at high dose or past 6 weeks anymore. 3-5 weeks as a kickstart is much better.
 

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