Possible liver damage from prohormones, need advice.

tpd01883

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First and foremost, I would like to state that this is NOT about me. So please no flaming. I'm well read on the topics of prohormones, and anabolics in general and would not have made this mistake. I'm worried about a friend of mine who I found out yesterday has been taking a product called "Mass Extreme 2" from Nutrashop. A few weeks ago the buzz around my gym, was that all PH's currently available were going to be banned. As a result a bunch of guys ran over to nutrashop(where they got this info from) and bought out as many ph's as they possibly could.

My friend was complaining of general lethargy throughout the day, and nausea after taking his PH supplement(also gyno, the reason he first consulted me about the ph). At first i thought this sounded somewhat normal, not necessarily the nausea but I know some PH's ran without test will cause lethargy. I asked him what he was taking and how much, he told me mass extreme, which I had no clue what that was, so I asked to see the bottle. Upon closer inspection I found it to be a Phera-Plex clone dosed at 18mg / cap.

I asked him how much he was taking and he said 6 caps per day, as was reccomended by the guy at nutra shop! He was also taking a 1-androsterone clone called 1-t extreme2 at 3 caps per day. At first I thought he must have confused the two as 1-andro at 6 caps per day would be somewhat reasonable as would phera at 3 caps per day(still a high dose) but he showed me the sheet where the nutrashop guy had written the instructions down and sure enough mass extreme2 2 caps 3x a day.

Assuming they're dosed accurately thats 108mg of pheraplex each day!!! His symptoms of lethargy and nausea can both be signs of liver damage. Obviously I advised him to immediately stop taking everything. I told him he should see a doctor asap, but he doesn't have health insurance and isn't keen on explaining to a doc that he took too many ph's. I told him of a pathology clinic that would run a liver / metabolic panel for around $200 and advised him at the very least to have that done asap, and to have it done again in around 4 weeks if the results came back elevated to make sure they didn't stay elevated, as that could signal some permanent damage.

I know there are many people that take Oral Anabolic steroids at dosages far exceeding the minimum effective dose. I.E. Dianabol is commonly effective at 30-50mg yet people often take 80-120mg for as long as 6 weeks with no permanent damage. He has only been on the phera clone for about 2 and a half weeks now but I'm still concearned.

Has anyone else heard of this kind of dosing of ph's? and what happened. I'm guessing he will probably be ok, but am still concearned because I know some of these oral designer's are very toxic, especially at an insanely high dosage like 108mg/day.

I have to say this, but please no flaming, as that is not useful for anyone/anything besides your own ego.
 
DeerDeer

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He needs to go to his local community hospital and apply for a form of comminty free service or go to a free clinic. He will have to fill out paperwork but should be fine. Labs and MD evaluations are typically covered, or he can go and get a job to get insurance.

There is nothing anyone should recommend outside of being evaluated by a physician with appropriate laboratory studies and follow up. You cannot predict the extent of hepatic injury just by history.

This is exactly why the FDA acted the way it did with all the PH's, it isnt going to stop there either, be ready for other supps to be pulled as more and more of this is happening with regular run of the mill supps.
 
gamer2be08

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Get him on nac, liv 52 and milk thistle and take daily until he can get to a clinic. Is he yellowish in color, IE skin and eyes? If not, there may not be immediate danger as those are signs of jaundice.. But, he still may have harmed his liver greatly and still needs to get a liver panel asap...
 
Lacradocious

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Check out this excellent post with regard to bloodwork:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/stickies/32925-safe-cycling-your.html

I would just get a liver panel done if money is an issue as this is about $50. Like gamer2be08 said, get on some liver support supps.

Obviously, his hormones are shot from this and the test will just confirm what he already knows. If he is getting gyno, he needs to run a PCT. 4 weeks of Nolvadex at 20/20/10/10. That will hopefully get his hormones started back up and get the gyno in check.

After running the PCT and liver support for 4 weeks, he can check his liver panel again and maybe also get his hormones checked to see if he is still shut down. Might also want to check his bloodpressure now and then as well to see if it improves in this time frame.

Whoever sold and recommended that product at that dose, along with your friend, are the reason why the FDA is cracking down.
 
DeerDeer

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Hold on...so we are considering that he has some hepatotoxic effects here and we want to hammer the liver some more with tamoxifen??

Gyno is the least of his worries.

Stop all supps, have him eat very clean, hydrate and see a doctor.

Check out this excellent post with regard to bloodwork:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/stickies/32925-safe-cycling-your.html

I would just get a liver panel done if money is an issue as this is about $50. Like gamer2be08 said, get on some liver support supps.

Obviously, his hormones are shot from this and the test will just confirm what he already knows. If he is getting gyno, he needs to run a PCT. 4 weeks of Nolvadex at 20/20/10/10. That will hopefully get his hormones started back up and get the gyno in check.

After running the PCT and liver support for 4 weeks, he can check his liver panel again and maybe also get his hormones checked to see if he is still shut down. Might also want to check his bloodpressure now and then as well to see if it improves in this time frame.

Whoever sold and recommended that product at that dose, along with your friend, are the reason why the FDA is cracking down.
 
gamer2be08

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IMO, use toremifene as a SERM, believe its not that hard on the liver if at all..
 
Lacradocious

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Hold on...so we are considering that he has some hepatotoxic effects here and we want to hammer the liver some more with tamoxifen??

Gyno is the least of his worries.

Stop all supps, have him eat very clean, hydrate and see a doctor.
In my opinion, I wouldn't consider a low dose of Tamoxifen for 4 weeks as hammering the liver but it is debatable.
 
DeerDeer

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In my opinion, I wouldn't consider a low dose of Tamoxifen for 4 weeks as hammering the liver but it is debatable.
Point taken.

For a normal liver, even a low dose is a risk. Add a beaten up liver to the mix and challenge it just a little bit and he could be tipped into fulminant hepatic failure, if he isn't already.
 
gamer2be08

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Exactly why I threw out toremifene!!!! Better and safer than nolva...
Dose 90/60/30/30
If I need to get sources, I can..
 
Kristofer68SS

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The lethargy and nausea is from the amount of steroids he is taking. Lets not jump in the deep end of the pool just yet.

Unless he is taking other liver killers like large amounts of alcohol, tylenol, rx meds that would cause liver products, etc he will be fine.

Get him off the roids and anything else that would be hard on the liver. Operation cleanup needs to go into effect for a minimum of 7 days, then onto some sort of pct.

Something like

Cycle Support
Serm- Low dose clomid
Natty tbooster like stoked and or testopro

2.5 weeks is not going to shut his liver down UNLESS he has some sort of prior liver issue.


The liver is a badmofo, trust me, i have tested mine in my younger days.

With that being said, a panel would be needed as soon as possible if conditions continue to worsen.
 
Rodja

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Lethargy is a common symptom for many DS out there and it can range from inadequate nutrition to an insulin issue. My guess is that 108mg of PP channeled a huge amount of carbs and his brain was in a fog because he wasn't eating enough and this could also lead to the nausea. I highly, highly doubt that there will be permanent liver damage, but he definitely needs to get on some toremifene, Cycle Support, Na-RALA, and sesamin ASAP.
 

stxnas

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...and if problems persist, see a doctor.
 
DeerDeer

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Exactly why I threw out toremifene!!!! Better and safer than nolva...
Dose 90/60/30/30
If I need to get sources, I can..
If you think for a second hepatotoxicity has not been reported with toremifene then you are wrong.

"Hepatic effects including elevated test results in the following percent of patients have been reported, SGOT (5% to 19%), alkaline phosphatase (8% to 19%), and bilirubin (1% to 1.5%). Toxic hepatitis has also been reported."

Cheers.
 
bulldogz

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Get blood work...!!...I think you can get blood work without a script if you go thru direct labs...they will be able to give you a lab closest to you in your area...spend the money and see what's goin on...then you can asses what steps to take next...

Takin liver protectant would be a great idea as well...I agree with gamer..a serm like torem would be perferable since its not as liver toxic as nolva...if in doubt go to a doc and disclose everything!
 
DeerDeer

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Never said it wasn't toxic, but said it was safer and less toxic than nolva...
http://www.springerlink.com/content/4k5l6t31c0lt1arp/
I have access to the full article and it is a comparison of hepatotoxicity in rats.

You are suggesting it in the setting of supposed hepatic injury, hence exacerbating a possible pre-existing problem. You suggest an alternative to tamoxifen as tor, I am suggesting he use neither.

The argument was not on your selection, rather it was against your consideration of even using such an agent in this situation.

He needs to stop everything and go see a doctor and not rely on the resources and expertise of this forum for self diagnosis and treatment of a possible life threatening condition.
 

tpd01883

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Hold on...so we are considering that he has some hepatotoxic effects here and we want to hammer the liver some more with tamoxifen??

Gyno is the least of his worries.

Stop all supps, have him eat very clean, hydrate and see a doctor.
I gave him some aromasin tonight to use for pct since tamoxifen is what he had, and that is hepatoxic. I know it's not ideal, but after two weeks he's most likely not shut down too hard. He went to the pathology clinic today as well and results will be here in 3-5 days.

I don't THINK I see signs of jaundice. However usually the first signs of jaundice manifest in urine and feces rather than on skin and eyes. I asked him and he said he hasn't noticed anything, but since he wasn't looking, and didn't know what to look for it's very possible that he missed it.
 

tpd01883

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Also I didn't really want to include this because I didn't want the urge to flame to be any stronger than it already is...BUT Yes, for the past week or so he has been drinking. Not too heavily but alcohol was still consumed. The other thing that worries me is that while nutrashop says they have 1-androsterone in their 1-t product, you never really know what's in those things, hell i'd be willing to bet they don't even really know whats in them, since I doubt they test their raws. So if they put a methyl into their 1-t product to make something cheaper and more effective and sell it as something nontoxic he coulda been doubling up on the methyls.

Also I talked to a few more of the guys who rushed over to NS to get their last minute PH's to see what they were taking, and there was lots of stupidity going on, all under the recommendation of the same sales clerk. Two guys were taking 2 different products, both of which had two methyls stacked in them. One was Phera + superdrol + tren, the other was Epi + Phera...So 3 methy'ls + a double dose of phera, and tren. No wonder they're banning PH's.
 

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