My PCT is off somehow, getting post-PCT gyno indications

[Goat]

Here was my cycle.

Week 1: Pheraplex 30mg
Week 2: Pheraplex 30mg
Week 3: Pheraplex 30mg
Week 4: Pheraplex 10mg - Superdrol 20mg

Week 5: Novadex XT 4 caps
Week 6: Novadex XT 4 caps
Week 7: Novadex XT 2 caps
Week 8: Novadex XT 2 caps



I planned on doing Weeks 4-6 of Superdrol but the lethargy killed me and I quit everything and used Gaspari Novadex XT for PCT.

This product has worked WONDERS for me in prior cycles. Thats why I used it this time. But back on topic

I am in week 10 and on zero supplements or AAS. I just noticed soreness and a small lumpy spot just outside my left nipple. I started Tamoxifen Citrate last night at 40 and am not sure what to do after this. Should I just run a normal 4 regimen with the Tamoxifen? 40/40/20/20?

Also, what do you guys suppose could have caused this? PP is not really supposed to cause any gyno I thought. Any advise appreciated.

One final thing, I was using cloned PP, more than one brand over the course of the cycle. Not the original AX stuff. P-Max and Methyl Plex XT.:whiner:

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

i believe your problem may have been the lack of a SERM in your post cycle therapy.

 

[Goat]

i believe your problem may have been the lack of a SERM in your post cycle therapy.

So dosing as I posted above with Tamox Citrate should solve this problem?

And thanks, btw.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Honestly, I'm really not for sure..

That said, if I was doing what you were doing I'd probably add an otc AI in there and taper it down weekly.. I'd suggest E-Form, or Trione (NP's brand of 6-OXO).

 

[Goat]

Honestly, I'm really not for sure..

That said, if I was doing what you were doing I'd probably add an otc AI in there and taper it down weekly.. I'd suggest E-Form, or Trione (NP's brand of 6-OXO).

Why the OTC stuff?

I have ATD, how would you suggest I use it in this regard?

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Why the OTC stuff?

I have ATD, how would you suggest I use it in this regard?

I'm really not a big fan of ATD, for various reasons, if I can find it I'll link you to the thread that makes me keep away from it during pct/anytime really..

I suggested the otc stuff because they lower total estro. in the body, while the Nolva blocks e's effects... seems like a good synergy, imo.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

ah, here it is: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/72903-why-atd-should.html

 

[Goat]

ah, here it is: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/72903-why-atd-should.html

Hmmm...thats interesting. Maybe I'll go try to pick something up tomorrow. The only other OTC I have ATM is more Novadex XT.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Hmmm...thats interesting. Maybe I'll go try to pick something up tomorrow. The only other OTC I have ATM is more Novadex XT.

I'm pretty sure Novadex XT is ATD based... sadly.

 

[Goat]

I'm pretty sure Novadex XT is ATD based... sadly.

Actually looks like I have some Dermabolics E-Form stashed away. I will add that to the Tamox.

Thanks to everyone.

 

[Australian made]

First off PP most definitely can cause gyno!! I know this first hand. Things were going fantastic until about week 3 when i got the lump. i continued on for a few more days then hit PCT which was Torm, B6, restore and through in a test booster later. anyway the lump went down a little but not completely. A few months later and no supps what so ever (except B6) and the lump has shrunk considerably. Hopefully an upcoming Epi cycle will help reduce it that little bit more. I'd see what one week on tamox will do and go from there.

quick tip. B6 is dirt cheap and has been effective for some people at reducing prolactin induced gyno including myself.. Give it a try 600mg per day or so should be sweet.

 

[celc5]

It's difficult to say since you used the clone. While searching the boards (for months, mind you), I have not seen any gyno issues CAUSED by running 1 cycle of AX phera. Also, if the superdrol wasn't AX, there's no telling what it was (see the plethora of debates). Delayed gyno with superdrol clones is very common, especially with a poorly planned post cycle therapy.

Supposedly, phera is NOT supposed to aromatize. But, that doesn't mean that natural test won't aromatize as it rebounds (that's my personal logic, not science by any means).

Using a serm in post cycle would have been a good idea with an AI alongside of it for about 6 weeks. I personally prefer formestane because it's supposed to stay active for about 20 weeks in your system.

Finally, there's been some chatter about using B6 for prolactin control (as someone else also mentioned). If this is a prolactin issue, serms and ai's probably won't help.

You may want to search for the name RenegadeRows (or something like that) because there was a nice thread on addressing gyno.

 

[Goat]

It's difficult to say since you used the clone. While searching the boards (for months, mind you), I have not seen any gyno issues CAUSED by running 1 cycle of AX phera. Also, if the superdrol wasn't AX, there's no telling what it was (see the plethora of debates). Delayed gyno with superdrol clones is very common, especially with a poorly planned post cycle therapy.

Supposedly, phera is NOT supposed to aromatize. But, that doesn't mean that natural test won't aromatize as it rebounds (that's my personal logic, not science by any means).

Using a serm in post cycle would have been a good idea with an AI alongside of it for about 6 weeks. I personally prefer formestane because it's supposed to stay active for about 20 weeks in your system.

Finally, there's been some chatter about using B6 for prolactin control (as someone else also mentioned). If this is a prolactin issue, serms and ai's probably won't help.

You may want to search for the name RenegadeRows (or something like that) because there was a nice thread on addressing gyno.

Actually the Superdrol was Designer Supplements original batch of Superdrol so I am sure it was legit. But I really only low dosed it for about 5-6 days total.

I think one possibility is that the novadex XT boosted my test so high that it caused aromatization. I wouldn't know if this is possible, but the reason I use the product is it REALLY boosts my test. If I was not very supresssed to begin with, it might have overdone it. Just one theory.

Thanks for the information, I'll surely do more reading on this and count on the proper research chems rather than otc ptc products in the future.

 

[celc5]

Actually the Superdrol was Designer Supplements original batch of Superdrol so I am sure it was legit. But I really only low dosed it for about 5-6 days total.

I think one possibility is that the novadex XT boosted my test so high that it caused aromatization. I wouldn't know if this is possible, but the reason I use the product is it REALLY boosts my test. If I was not very supresssed to begin with, it might have overdone it. Just one theory.

Thanks for the information, I'll surely do more reading on this and count on the proper research chems rather than otc ptc products in the future.

The interesting thing is that NovedexXT gets a poor rep because some people try to use it as the only post cycle supplement. Otherwise, I've heard some good things about it, especially when compared to other ATDs.

Goat, what's your cycle history? When was your last cycle and what was it before the PP/SD cycle?

 

[neoborn]

Most Importantly!

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/66113-no-excuses-no.html

SERM + P.C.T Guide

Now please, anyone is free to discuss this and tell me I've totally got it wrong or need to add something. Now with that said:

Bloodwork! I cannot / we cannot say this enough that it is highly recommended to get bloodwork so you know how to run your PCT and WHAT you need to run on your PCT.

1. SERM - Torem, Ralox, Nolvadex etc

Example Torem Dosing: - As per Interlocutor
Day 1-5 = 120mg Torm
Day 6-21 = 60mg Torm
Day 22-28 = 30mg Torm

You should monitor this carefully and will most likely bounce back rather quickly with this SERM as per reports given by experienced users on the board. Please someone let me know if this is overkill for Torem

Example Nolva Dosing:
Wk1: 40,40,40,20,20,20,20
Wk2: 20mg everyday
Wk3: 10mg everyday
Wk4: 10mg everyday

I am not sure why anyone would go above these dosages, as per Dinoii, as the large body of studies / material backs up dosages no more than 40mg and mainly focuses on 20mg / 10mg dosage schemes. More is not better

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - I have heard good things on the following: Dermacrine Sustain, Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

NON-Rx SERM + P.C.T Guide

1. Non Rx SERM - Post Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Dermacrine Sustain(Recommended)

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), Dermacrine Sustain, 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - I have heard good things on the following: Dermacrine Sustain, Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

All of the products and protocols above are open to discussion. This is not a hard and fast list but a guide to help.

With that said Epistane style products on a non extreme usage style cycle are going to use a less extreme PCT. Better not to have huge hormonal swinging in either direction. Calm, steady and relative therapy is recommended.

Things To Note

1. You will most likely want to run your AI (Formestane) for a month or so after finishing your PCT therapy to make sure you experience no estrogen rebound / flooding. If you run your PCT for four weeks, as you ramp down on your SERM etc ramp up on your Formestane / AI so, to as keep your estrogen under control. There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!

2. Once done your PCT, and AI time ramp it down slowly until about one month after PCT

3. Know what gyno is and the symptoms of gyno: @@@ Gyno Questions - Please Read This First @@@ - Bodybuilding.com Forums

 

[celc5]

[ There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!

I'd have a hunch that sometimes serms could cause an upregulation of estrogen receptors making you more likely to have gyno-esque symptoms when estrogen levels finally return. However, I'd have a hard time believing that serms do any test boosting at all.

 

[Goat]

The interesting thing is that NovedexXT gets a poor rep because some people try to use it as the only post cycle supplement. Otherwise, I've heard some good things about it, especially when compared to other ATDs.

Goat, what's your cycle history? When was your last cycle and what was it before the PP/superdrol cycle?

My last cycle was about 3 months prior to this one. It was 2 weeks long and all I took was 20mg's of Methyl Plex XT each day. I gained 10 pounds and PCT was Novadex XT for 2 weeks (forgot dosage, but it was prolly med-low).

I kept all the gains from that.

I have about 6-7 cycles under my belt. A couple bouts of illness and extended vacations with no gym or food means I have lost about 25 lbs total in the last few years of the gains which I have got through AAS/PH use.

I am now at 224 16% bf, having began a few years ago at 165 at 19% bf.

29 years old.

 

[thundergod]

Hey Goat--- In my opinion, ditch the phera-plex man. It is a VERY wet compound to begin with. It always bloated me like hell. I don't recommend it anymore. After your PCT and maybe 4 more weeks on something like activate, go with a cycle of Epistane for 6 to 8 weeks. This should really help with the gyno!!

 

[celc5]

Hey Goat--- In my opinion, ditch the phera-plex man. It is a VERY wet compound to begin with. It always bloated me like hell. I don't recommend it anymore. After your post cycle therapy and maybe 4 more weeks on something like activate, go with a cycle of Epistane for 6 to 8 weeks. This should really help with the gyno!!

Bloat ON cycle probably isn't related to the rebound gyno.

Activate will NOT help his gyno situation in any way.

I don't believe epi is an intelligent way to handle this scenario.

 

[The_Reverend]

Honestly, I'm really not for sure..

That said, if I was doing what you were doing I'd probably add an otc AI in there and taper it down weekly.. I'd suggest E-Form, or Trione (NP's brand of 6-OXO).

IMO, formestane isn't strong enough to get rid of gyno. Letro is probably your best bet followed by some nolva to help with the estro rebound.

 

[N4cer]

I don't think I'd include formestane as a "must-have" since it 4OHT is a metabolite of it.

 

[Werewolf]

I find it very interesting that in the write up of their own website that show that Novadex XT can raise estrodiol levels. It appears that you need to run AI or SERM with it to be safe.

54.33 ±38.21 for placebo at 4 weeks
91.62 ±101.11 for 4 capsules a day at 4 weeks

That large amount of pulse or minus probably means it behaves much differently in different people. This is the first AI I know of that can raise estrodiol. Scary. Interesting stuff, but I recommend extreme caution for anyone with Gyno tendencies and run with SERM or another AI.

Strangely enough I may be buying some to try it out. It appear to be a great natural test booster with very little estrogen suppression if you careful and are ready to deal with any Gyno issues.

 

[Werewolf]

I see above recommendation to use 6-OXO as an AI. I have no problem with using it except it must always be tapered off no faster than 100 mg every 4 days to prevent estrogen rebound and possible delayed Gyno problems!

 

[celc5]

it must always be tapered off no faster than 100 mg every 4 days to prevent estrogen rebound

Would you elaborate on this? Links? Specific examples? Personal experience?

 

[Goat]

What I'm doing is using E-Form (Dermabolics topical) at 160 mg's a day for a month. Basicaly following the directions on the bottle.

I am also running Tamox Citrate at 25/25/25/25.

Opinions?

 

[celc5]

What I'm doing is using E-Form (Dermabolics topical) at 160 mg's a day for a month. Basicaly following the directions on the bottle.

I am also running Tamox Citrate at 25/25/25/25.

Opinions?

Don't know if it'll "solve" your problem but you're gonna like eform.

Since you went otc, formestane is probably a great choice because it controls estrogen for up to 22 weeks even after you stop dosing

 

[Werewolf]

Would you elaborate on this? Links? Specific examples? Personal experience?

Sorry no links. 4 days is the time it takes the HPT axis to adjust for a input change. Unlike most other AIs, 6-OXO lasts less than 1 day. It is possible with 6-OXO to get your Testosterone output to be more than double normal. If you stop all at once then estrogen level goes to double normal. It can cause gyno probelms and since the HPT has a slow response time (4 days) then overshoot is normal. This means large step changes will drive estrogen output below normal by driving testosterone output below normal. You end up ruining your PCT by this sudden stopping.

 

[celc5]

Sorry no links. 4 days is the time it takes the HPT axis to adjust for a input change. Unlike most other AIs, 6-OXO lasts less than 1 day. It is possible with 6-OXO to get your Testosterone output to be more than double normal. If you stop all at once then estrogen level goes to double normal. It can cause gyno probelms and since the HPT has a slow response time (4 days) then overshoot is normal. This means large step changes will drive estrogen output below normal by driving testosterone output below normal. You end up ruining your post cycle therapy by this sudden stopping.

Don't get me, I agree with your slow taper. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate in this discussion.

I've read a few times that 6oxo does give a nice test boost with similar numbers that you suggest. Personally I responded much more strongly to 6oxo than the current popular test boosters.

On the other hand, I've read that it's not so fantastic for estrogen control. Something like an 11% decrease, which can't compare to AI's like formestane.

What I'm getting at is that if it's such a strong test booster and weak with estrogen control, your theory would suggest that it's possible to get gyno WHILE ON 6oxo as well. I haven't heard of any such cases on the boards, and I also haven't heard of any rebound gyno cases with 6oxo... of course, there's always cases where the entire cycle and post cycle were poorly planned where people tend to "blame" the AI.

 

[thundergod]

I'm currently using transdermal 6-oxo now. If it really doesn't lower estrogen that much, then can I also take formestane at the same time to really lower estrogen? How would you suggest dosing a stack of the two?

 

[celc5]

I'm currently using transdermal 6-oxo now. If it really doesn't lower estrogen that much, then can I also take formestane at the same time to really lower estrogen? How would you suggest dosing a stack of the two?

I've heard a few whispers of people dropping a few grams of trione into eform. I've never tried it myself but it's definately on my "to do" list. Run some searches for 6oxo because, at some point, somoene advised me on appropriate dosages... sorry, can't remember which thread it was though :think:

 

[The_Reverend]

After reading this thread, I have to wonder why so many people choose to run 6-OXO in their PCT. If it doesn't lower estrogen that much and has the ability to induce a wicked rebound, what's so good about it?

 

[N4cer]

After reading this thread, I have to wonder why so many people choose to run 6-OXO in their post cycle therapy. If it doesn't lower estrogen that much and has the ability to induce a wicked rebound, what's so good about it?

Advertising, and word of fools' mouths.

 

[celc5]

After reading this thread, I have to wonder why so many people choose to run 6-OXO in their post cycle therapy. If it doesn't lower estrogen that much and has the ability to induce a wicked rebound, what's so good about it?

I played devil's advocate before. Now here's my true opinion of 6oxo: For me, it helped build more lean mass and cut more fat than every natural hormonal product that I've tried including MassFx, Activate, Activate Extreme, Alpha Drive XL, Jungle Warfare, Bad Ass Mass, Restore, Lean Extreme, and Reduce XT. Although, it does take second place to formestane though.

If I used it in post cycle, I'd have another AI on hand to run alongside of it at a moderate dose.

Advertising, and word of fools' mouths.

Wouldn't you say this to be true of most of the popular estrogen control/test boosters right now?

 

[Jstrong20]

IMO, formestane isn't strong enough to get rid of gyno. Letro is probably your best bet followed by some nolva to help with the estro rebound.

I did kill gyno with formestane. Keep in mind though I seem very resilant to gyno as I've had lumps form a couple times and reversed it 100 percent everytime. Not to mention my nuts spring back fast to. So keep in mind I do recover faster than normal and it may not work as well for others.

 

[Goat]

I did kill gyno with formestane. Keep in mind though I seem very resilant to gyno as I've had lumps form a couple times and reversed it 100 percent everytime. Not to mention my nuts spring back fast to. So keep in mind I do recover faster than normal and it may not work as well for others.

What was your regimen?

Dose?

 

[neoborn]

See "Neoborns Formestane FAQ" for all the form questions and answers you could have.

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[Werewolf]

Don't get me, I agree with your slow taper. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate in this discussion.

I've read a few times that 6oxo does give a nice test boost with similar numbers that you suggest. Personally I responded much more strongly to 6oxo than the current popular test boosters.

On the other hand, I've read that it's not so fantastic for estrogen control. Something like an 11% decrease, which can't compare to AI's like formestane.

What I'm getting at is that if it's such a strong test booster and weak with estrogen control, your theory would suggest that it's possible to get gyno WHILE ON 6oxo as well. I haven't heard of any such cases on the boards, and I also haven't heard of any rebound gyno cases with 6oxo... of course, there's always cases where the entire cycle and post cycle were poorly planned where people tend to "blame" the AI.

I don't understand where the statements that 6-OXO is a poor estrogen controller came from. The HPT axis will always raise testosterone up to try to make up for low estrogen and balance estrogen. Without the DHT and Free testosterone inputs in the HPT axis, estrogen would completely return to normal value.

At 600mgs 6-OXO is as basically as strong as any AI out there. AIs are really not weapon of choice to fight gyno, SERMs (Nolva/Toremifene)/SARMs (Epistane) are. SERMs block the receptors. AIs are only going to give you short term lowering of estrogen. HPT axis will adjust for small changes in about 4 days. Your balls take longer to grow back after receiving signal to increase.

 

[Goat]

Things seem to be stabilizing or even subsiding at the moment. I usually have very hard nips all the time. The have softened a bit and the tenderness beneath the nipple is subsiding as well.

Continuing with tamox/form combo tapering down very slowly on tamox.

 

[N4cer]

Wouldn't you say this to be true of most of the popular estrogen control/test boosters right now?

Absolutely. Which is why it amazes me that people still talk about them like they're acceptable instead of growing a set of balls and saying, "This is BS. There's only pseudo-science behind it. Stop treating me like I'm stupid. NOW!"

 

[The_Reverend]

AIs are really not weapon of choice to fight gyno, SERMs (Nolva/Toremifene)/SARMs (Epistane) are. SERMs block the receptors. AIs are only going to give you short term lowering of estrogen. HPT axis will adjust for small changes in about 4 days. Your balls take longer to grow back after receiving signal to increase.

Not entirely true. Have you forgotten about Letro? Its many people's last resort and there are plenty of success stories out there.