Should protein and fat intake be guided by LBM or total bodyweight ?

[sandys]

hi,
while starting Leangains, I'm puzzled about the amount of protein I must consume. Should I go with something like 1X LBM or is it 1X Total bodyweight ?

Similarly for fats - the overload of information out there is staggering. Is 0.4XLBM the optimal macro ... and then fill the rest of the daily calorific requirements with carbs ?

 

[MasterFlexx]

For protein intake go for what LBM your trying to aquire. For example if you want to weigh 170lbs shoot for at least 170g protein a day. Don't neglect your healthy fats either. What does your current stats and diet look like?

 

[TheMeatus101]

People make leangains more complicated than it really is. 16 hour fast, 8 hour eating, in that 8 hours eat bigger meals that are full of everything you need. Protein, carbs, cals, healthy fats. It's really not that hard. It's whatever works for you, just because somebody on a thread said LeanGains is best if you eat this and that, or that many cals blah blah blah, doesn't mean it's best for you, play with it a little bit until you find what's best FOR YOU.

 

[JajaNe20]

Well for protein I agree with masterflex and would go by your LBM. I disagree with the 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight, just because it wasn't enough for me. If it's enough for you then fine, but I go with 1.5 grams per LBM. Trial and error my friend!

 

[soontobbeast]

important things to remember : higher carbs, lower fat on workout days. lower carb, higher fat on non lifting days.


protein at 1x LBM or 1.25 if you want. most importantly with protein is using MEAT or EGGS i use milk too cause its 80% casein, NOT WHEY SHAKES.

 

[VS91588]

Well for protein I agree with masterflex and would go by your LBM. I disagree with the 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight, just because it wasn't enough for me. If it's enough for you then fine, but I go with 1.5 grams per LBM. Trial and error my friend!

Agree

 

[EasyEJL]

Well for protein I agree with masterflex and would go by your LBM. I disagree with the 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight, just because it wasn't enough for me. If it's enough for you then fine, but I go with 1.5 grams per LBM. Trial and error my friend!

If it wasn't enough for you, you were either counting wrong, or utilizing shakes for half of it.

 

[sandys]

If it wasn't enough for you, you were either counting wrong, or utilizing shakes for half of it.

@EasyEJL - could you elaborate on your comment please. Does it mean that protein shakes are inferior to using milk or meat as protein sources ?

 

[EasyEJL]

Shakes are good for desperate moments like when your only choice in a meal is peanut butter sandwiches. Outside of that it doesn't have much use. Nobody who gets to a good size does it with shakes being any big portion of their protein.

The whole "Anabolic window" is mostly a fairy tale. Using BCAA intraworkout or postworkout helps with recovery, but other than that if you are eating solid food meals with 1g or more of protein per pound of bodyweight that's enough unless you are using steroids.

Shakes aren't harmful, but when someone is only getting 60g of protein from solid food, and 120g from shakes, its no surprise they have a hard time growing.

 

[VS91588]

Shakes are good for desperate moments like when your only choice in a meal is peanut butter sandwiches. Outside of that it doesn't have much use. Nobody who gets to a good size does it with shakes being any big portion of their protein.

The whole "Anabolic window" is mostly a fairy tale. Using BCAA intraworkout or postworkout helps with recovery, but other than that if you are eating solid food meals with 1g or more of protein per pound of bodyweight that's enough unless you are using steroids.

Shakes aren't harmful, but when someone is only getting 60g of protein from solid food, and 120g from shakes, its no surprise they have a hard time growing.

Whole foods all day. I only use my post workout shake if I am in a rush. I love eating 10oz Talapia and 2 cups of white rice post workout. Ever since I started that I notice my physique to be more harder

 

[JajaNe20]

Shakes are good for desperate moments like when your only choice in a meal is peanut butter sandwiches. Outside of that it doesn't have much use. Nobody who gets to a good size does it with shakes being any big portion of their protein.

The whole "Anabolic window" is mostly a fairy tale. Using BCAA intraworkout or postworkout helps with recovery, but other than that if you are eating solid food meals with 1g or more of protein per pound of bodyweight that's enough unless you are using steroids.

Shakes aren't harmful, but when someone is only getting 60g of protein from solid food, and 120g from shakes, its no surprise they have a hard time growing.

Tisk::Tisk::Tisk. I never used steroids and having 190 lbs of LBM I need more than 1 gram of protein per lb or LBM or I actually start to lose muscle. This is individualized and there is no 100% correct answer for everyone. Tailor your advice a little better to avoid giving newbies the wrong information :bs2:

 

[EasyEJL]

Tisk::Tisk::Tisk. I never used steroids and having 190 lbs of LBM I need more than 1 gram of protein per lb or LBM or I actually start to lose muscle. This is individualized and there is no 100% correct answer for everyone. Tailor your advice a little better to avoid giving newbies the wrong information :bs2:

Then there is something else wrong with what you are doing, or something wrong with your digestive tract/enzyme system, which is rare.

 

[JajaNe20]

Or your just being egocentric..:stupid:

 

[EasyEJL]

Or your just being egocentric..:stupid:

No, real medical research shows that is all you need, not one individual claiming he looses at that.

 

[JajaNe20]

Okay, real medical research has shown someone who has a higher amount of LBM than the average person, trains 5 times per week at 1.5 hours each session with an intensity level of a constant 16 RPE? The research has shown that in this case (being natural) that anything over 190 grams of protein (considering my LBM) would be wasted? No, re-look your research my friend, I am currently working on 2 research trials as we speak. Research is used as a general concensus, individuality makes the difference! :bsflag:

 

[EasyEJL]

Okay, real medical research has shown someone who has a higher amount of LBM than the average person, trains 5 times per week at 1.5 hours each session with an intensity level of a constant 16 RPE? The research has shown that in this case (being natural) that anything over 190 grams of protein (considering my LBM) would be wasted? No, re-look your research my friend, I am currently working on 2 research trials as we speak. Research is used as a general concensus, individuality makes the difference! :bsflag:

No, it shows as much as 190 isn't even necessary

http://jap.physiology.org/content/73/5/1986.short

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0899900704000991

1.4-1.6g/kg maintains, in athletes. But sure, you can very well have some malabsorption issues personally.

 

[JajaNe20]

Haha, okay man. Nothing left to say, just chuckles :rofl:

 

[RawStrength]

I love protein intake debates

 

[VS91588]

I love protein intake debates

Same here but it's a touchy subject because every1's body reacts differently. It's all about trial and error. I personally look up to Rich Gaspari and have learned from what I read about him to record your intake and than pretty much make changes throughout the months. You are the scientist and your body is the experiment

 

[EasyEJL]

Same here but it's a touchy subject because every1's body reacts differently. It's all about trial and error. I personally look up to Rich Gaspari and have learned from what I read about him to record your intake and than pretty much make changes throughout the months. You are the scientist and your body is the experiment

Yeah, I spent a bunch of time talking with Hugo Rivera about that, and how he started on his path to being a pro, and some of the things he did. And meticulous control and logging, with a direct specific plan for a preset timeline is the only way you can be sure for yourself.

 

[JajaNe20]

BINGO. Wasn't that what I said the whole time? Haha omg hilarious

 

[EasyEJL]

BINGO. Wasn't that what I said the whole time? Haha omg hilarious

Maybe you didn't read it. Doing that is the only way you can be "sure for yourself", nowhere does that say that your results will be contrary to proven science. If you find a hard time believing the results of a good scientific experiment thats the only way to prove it for yourself. And no scientific studies anywhere excepting people with medical malabsorption issues have shown a requirement of even 1g/lb/day of protein being necessary for trained athletes.

 

[sandys]

@EasyEJL - thanks for the research references, they really helped.
However, a relevant question : in case of any training program (say leangains), where one is consuming more calories than maintenance... going by what you guys discussed above, I would assign a max protein intake based on 1X LBM. In that case, where would the other calories be assigned - fats or carbs ?

Or would you say that one should eat protein regardless, just to avoid consuming huge amounts of carbs ?

 

[EasyEJL]

@EasyEJL - thanks for the research references, they really helped.
However, a relevant question : in case of any training program (say leangains), where one is consuming more calories than maintenance... going by what you guys discussed above, I would assign a max protein intake based on 1X LBM. In that case, where would the other calories be assigned - fats or carbs ?

Or would you say that one should eat protein regardless, just to avoid consuming huge amounts of carbs ?

well, if you are following a particular diet scheme, then there usually are listed macros. Really that 1xlbm is the baseline, more than that isn't a bad thing, just unncessary to maintain or grow muscle. Large amounts of carbs aren't necessarily a bad thing either, depending on their source. Healthy fats are always good, the hormone cascade to natural testosterone production starts with saturated fats, so too low a diet in fats is a bad thing for sure.

 

[VS91588]

@EasyEJL - thanks for the research references, they really helped.
However, a relevant question : in case of any training program (say leangains), where one is consuming more calories than maintenance... going by what you guys discussed above, I would assign a max protein intake based on 1X LBM. In that case, where would the other calories be assigned - fats or carbs ?

Or would you say that one should eat protein regardless, just to avoid consuming huge amounts of carbs ?

You need to eat protein regardless. Protein, Carbs and Fats are all energy sources but protein is what builds muscle period!

 

[JajaNe20]

Maybe you didn't read it. Doing that is the only way you can be "sure for yourself", nowhere does that say that your results will be contrary to proven science. If you find a hard time believing the results of a good scientific experiment thats the only way to prove it for yourself. And no scientific studies anywhere excepting people with medical malabsorption issues have shown a requirement of even 1g/lb/day of protein being necessary for trained athletes.

No, I read it correctly you just have to keep you ego. It's okay my friend everyone is wrong sometimes. I said that everyones different and you in fact said the samthing. While you didn't completely agree, you still agreed. Have a nice Day :cool2:

 

[EasyEJL]

No, I read it correctly you just have to keep you ego. It's okay my friend everyone is wrong sometimes. I said that everyones different and you in fact said the samthing. While you didn't completely agree, you still agreed. Have a nice Day :cool2:

Hey, feel free to post any scientific study showing non maintenance of lean mass at higher protein intake than .8g/lb but maintenance calories if you have one.

 

[RawStrength]

Hey, feel free to post any scientific study showing non maintenance of lean mass at higher protein intake than .8g/lb but maintenance calories if you have one.

So a lack of a study means it is false or not probable?

So before we knew the earth was round it was intact square? Or when it was believed that the earth was the center of our universe, since there was nothing to disprove it then it was correct?

Point is just because there isn't a study to support a idea, it doesn't discredit or invalidate the idea. He is absolutely correct in saying you have to experiment and find out for yourself. Making a statement suggesting there is some "one size fits all" rule to a macro amount consumed is ridiculous

 

[EasyEJL]

So a lack of a study means it is false or not probable?

So before we knew the earth was round it was intact square? Or when it was believed that the earth was the center of our universe, since there was nothing to disprove it then it was correct?

Point is just because there isn't a study to support a idea, it doesn't discredit or invalidate the idea. He is absolutely correct in saying you have to experiment and find out for yourself. Making a statement suggesting there is some "one size fits all" rule to a macro amount consumed is ridiculous

The lack of a study showing it, with multiple existing peer reviewed published studies showing something quite different makes it not probable.

So far every of a number of studies has come up with similar to identical results. Outside of an idividual medical condition with malabsorption, there isn't any justification for an individual variance of requirements being 50% higher. There's a whole branch of science on probably and statistics. Studies include the standard deviation, and have to meet a certain critieria for something observed being statistically significant.

Making statements of macro ratios being "necessary to gain" with no scientific documentation is ridiculous.

 

[JajaNe20]

Blah, blah, blah. There is no perfect study, and there are also many limitations that lead to farse information. You can blab on all you want I told you I know "research" I am currently involved with two different Principal Investigators on two different studies. We talk about what results may and may not mean. LOL! Loooong story short, have fun staying small