What to take when you don't take stims?

[BBiceps]

I'm stim addict but I used to be able to take 1 or 2 days off a week, now I feel like death and can barely hold my eyes open without stims...

Any I can take on those days off stim? I was thinking about Focus XT stim free but maybe you guys know about something else I can take to survive a day without stims?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Nootropics are a solid option. You already mentioned stim-free FXT, which is a good option. You could always go with theacrine, which isn't subject to the same tolerance build up as caffeine, but I don't know if you want absolutely nothing that is stimulant-like at all. Adaptogens like rhodiola can also help to reduce fatigue. Noopept and/or racetams are another option too (preferably stacked with at least a choline source).

 

[NurseGray]

Sometimes a 50mg caffeine pill is enough to take the edge off for me or switching to coffee. It’s a nice break from the heavy hitters.

 

[booneman77]

I'm stim addict but I used to be able to take 1 or 2 days off a week, now I feel like death and can barely hold my eyes open without stims...

Any I can take on those days off stim? I was thinking about Focus XT stim free but maybe you guys know about something else I can take to survive a day without stims?

Focus XT caff free is a great option. You can also add or separately try Noopept XT.

For me, for a little "kick" beta alanine gives me the tingles which "feels" like stimulation and may be enough to trick your brain a little ha.

Outside of those, good sleep (maybe try something like Growth factor XT to get better, deeper, more restful sleep and recovery), good diet (you could try changing either your calories or macro split), and maybe even a destress or cortisol supp like Reduce XT

 

[BBiceps]

Sometimes a 50mg caffeine pill is enough to take the edge off for me or switching to coffee. It’s a nice break from the heavy hitters.

Well, my heavy hitter is Adderall so 50mg of caffeine or a cup of coffee is not enough to wake me up...

 

[BBiceps]

Focus XT caff free is a great option. You can also add or separately try Noopept XT.

For me, for a little "kick" beta alanine gives me the tingles which "feels" like stimulation and may be enough to trick your brain a little ha.

Outside of those, good sleep (maybe try something like Growth factor XT to get better, deeper, more restful sleep and recovery), good diet (you could try changing either your calories or macro split), and maybe even a destress or cortisol supp like Reduce XT

Sleep is good (Growth Factor actually made me sleep worse anyway) and BA might not be enough to get me going, used cortisol products before and I'm not sure it did anything for my mood or wakefulness.

I'm trying to cut down on my Adderall use, I'm using more now than I didn't before and I don't want to increase my dose, I felt I could control my dosing better when I did a few days off every week but now I can barely hold my eyes open when I'm not taking it...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Sleep is good (Growth Factor actually made me sleep worse anyway) and BA might not be enough to get me going, used cortisol products before and I'm not sure it did anything for my mood or wakefulness.

I'm trying to cut down on my Adderall use, I'm using more now than I didn't before and I don't want to increase my dose, I felt I could control my dosing better when I did a few days off every week but now I can barely hold my eyes open when I'm not taking it...

You could always go with a -finil, but that may just be replacing one drug with another haha, although modafinil doesn't seem to be nearly as addicting as amphetamine.

 

[booneman77]

Sleep is good (Growth Factor actually made me sleep worse anyway) and BA might not be enough to get me going, used cortisol products before and I'm not sure it did anything for my mood or wakefulness.

I'm trying to cut down on my Adderall use, I'm using more now than I didn't before and I don't want to increase my dose, I felt I could control my dosing better when I did a few days off every week but now I can barely hold my eyes open when I'm not taking it...

Honestly it sounds like you have a legit issue if you cannot even function without it. Might just need to take a few days off and go through withdrawal and get your life together. Seriously, that's bad

 

[BBiceps]

Honestly it sounds like you have a legit issue if you cannot even function without it. Might just need to take a few days off and go through withdrawal and get your life together. Seriously, that's bad

Yeah, I'm planning on taking a few weeks off this winter when I'm on vacation but before that it's just not realistic to be without it with my lifestyle...

I was thinking that something with choline could potentially help those days I take a day off but I haven't had too much experience with it, what do you think?

 

[BBiceps]

You could always go with a -finil, but that may just be replacing one drug with another haha, although modafinil doesn't seem to be nearly as addicting as amphetamine.

Lol, the best would be to be able to take a few days off here and there without any drug...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yeah, I'm planning on taking a few weeks off this winter when I'm on vacation but before that it's just not realistic to be without it with my lifestyle...

I was thinking that something with choline could potentially help those days I take a day off but I haven't had too much experience with it, what do you think?

Lol, the best would be to be able to take a few days off here and there without any drug...

A choline source, AChE inhibitor, and a racetam or Noopept would be a nice combination IMO. Perhaps also add some ALCAR, and some rhodiola. That should make for a pretty solid combo.

 

[booneman77]

A choline source, AChE inhibitor, and a racetam or Noopept would be a nice combination IMO. Perhaps also add some ALCAR, and some rhodiola. That should make for a pretty solid combo.

yep this... really tho, nothing is going to give you energy or keep you awake that doesn't have any stims tho so you're not actually solving the "cant keep my eyes open" portion without somehting stimulating...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

yep this... really tho, nothing is going to give you energy or keep you awake that doesn't have any stims tho so you're not actually solving the "cant keep my eyes open" portion without somehting stimulating...

Rhodiola may help, as it does have a good bit of research in helping reduce fatigue, sleep deprivation, etc, but yeah, still not the same as actual stimulants. There is also probably at least a little mental aspect of this dependence too, besides anything physiological. Just the habit of consuming stimulants and the associations with them, what to expect from them, and what you think will happen without them, etc. Honestly, maybe even have some decaf coffee with your nootropics and adaptogens, maybe it'll help mentally.

 

[bigdavid]

Rhodiola
Panax Ginseng
Sulbutiamine
ALCAR
The phenyl racetam. Forgot the name

Adaptogensx10000. They will be your bffffff lol

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Rhodiola
Panax Ginseng
Sulbutiamine
ALCAR
The phenyl racetam. Forgot the name

Adaptogensx10000. They will be your bffffff lol

Phenylpiracetam. That does fit the bill of 1-2x per week, as tolerance builds fast with it.

 

[bigdavid]

Phenylpiracetam. That does fit the bill of 1-2x per week, as tolerance builds fast with it.

That’s the one. Yeah i lost effectiveness with only a week or so of daily dosing. It is great when you are naive though.

 

[bigdavid]

Oh also worth mentioning. This is more general advice for those reading:

Do not (And I repeat do not) do any oral PH/DS or even start a new sarm when you are going on a stim break. Even if you don’t usually get lethargy from a compound the timing together is a recipe for disaster.

Edit: well timed short naps (20-30 mins) during the middle of the day can really help late day productivity when you are off stims... usually being on chronic stims messes with your sleep cycle so you'd likely go right into REM with these short naps.

 

[bigdavid]

Also one of these babies can help: 30 mins or so first thing in the morning (about 12-18 inches from your face) helps to wake you up. 10-20 mins with the lamp further from your face (2-3x the distance) in the afternoon.

Just search "light lamp wakefulness" or some sort and you'll find a bunch of different types.

 

[BBiceps]

Honestly it sounds like you have a legit issue if you cannot even function without it. Might just need to take a few days off and go through withdrawal and get your life together. Seriously, that's bad

HA! I managed to go a whole day without Adderall and only had around 400 mg of caffeine, I didn't go to the gym though but I did work and trained a client. It might be hope for me after all

 

[AntM1564]

I really enjoy ALCAR, Hup A, Alpha GPC and Tyrosine. I add them to my non stim pre workout.

 

[Outofbody]

What to take when you don't take stims?

Well when I'm not taking stims, I'm taking downers, like phenibut or marijuana. It's either one or the other. Stims all day, phenibut + marjiuana at night. Somehow I don't think that's what you meant though lol

 

[jarrellt67]

Phenylpiracetam. That does fit the bill of 1-2x per week, as tolerance builds fast with it.

If you don't mind me asking, what has been your experience with phenylpiracetam? I've tried 100 mg every other morning for almost a week (so 3 or 4 times in a week) and it provides a little more focus, slightly better mood and very calm feeling. Tried 200 mg today and an hour later I got extremely tired and fell asleep for a few hours. Just trying to get a better understanding of this nootropic as I'm not reacting as expected.

 

[bigdavid]

If you don't mind me asking, what has been your experience with phenylpiracetam? I've tried 100 mg every other morning for almost a week (so 3 or 4 times in a week) and it provides a little more focus, slightly better mood and very calm feeling. Tried 200 mg today and an hour later I got extremely tired and fell asleep for a few hours. Just trying to get a better understanding of this nootropic as I'm not reacting as expected.

You prob already have descent levels of dopamine at baseline. High amounts of dopamine can paradoxically cause the feeling of tiredness. It happens to me if I take too much adderall. I literally feel so tired. But that’s partially the point of the med. when your dopamine levels are optimal you will feel calm and focused. Too little leaves me agitated. Too much makes me tired as stated above. I’d say try a lower dose and that should make you feel more of a stimulating effect.

 

[jarrellt67]

You prob already have descent levels of dopamine at baseline. High amounts of dopamine can paradoxically cause the feeling of tiredness. It happens to me if I take too much adderall. I literally feel so tired. But that’s partially the point of the med. when your dopamine levels are optimal you will feel calm and focused. Too little leaves me agitated. Too much makes me tired as stated above. I’d say try a lower dose and that should make you feel more of a stimulating effect.

Thanks for the feedback. I was thinking maybe it was the opposite and that I had low dopamine when also taking in my experiences with ssri's (major anger/irritability, no change in depression and increase in anxiety) and Bupropion (decrease in depression but increase in anxiety)....also positive response with regard to depression, social anxiety, etc from low dose modafinil and stimulants, etc (even though they do increase anxiety if too much is taken). However, my understanding of this stuff is very limited. I was thinking maybe it was the increase in acetylcholine activity from phenylpiracetam that was maybe the problem (get depressed and lethargic when taking things like alpha gpc, cdp choline, etc) but again, I do have trouble understanding a lot of the data on this stuff. I'll definitely try a lower dose and see how things go. Thanks again!

 

[bigdavid]

Thanks for the feedback. I was thinking maybe it was the opposite and that I had low dopamine when also taking in my experiences with ssri's (major anger/irritability, no change in depression and increase in anxiety) and Bupropion (decrease in depression but increase in anxiety)....also positive response with regard to depression, social anxiety, etc from low dose modafinil and stimulants, etc (even though they do increase anxiety if too much is taken). However, my understanding of this stuff is very limited. I was thinking maybe it was the increase in acetylcholine activity from phenylpiracetam that was maybe the problem (get depressed and lethargic when taking things like alpha gpc, cdp choline, etc) but again, I do have trouble understanding a lot of the data on this stuff. I'll definitely try a lower dose and see how things go. Thanks again!

Yeah it could be related to acetylcholine as well. I didn’t know you were taking medications that could influence dopamine. To be honest bupropion does affect dopamine but it mostly increases NE when you compare the two. With standard racetams they do work through AMPA receptors and other combinations of glutamate and acetylcholine changes. Phenylracetam seems to have a dopaminergic effect. At least from what I’ve read that’s what I assume is happening. You also might be taking it too often. Though there isn’t a manual on its usage and some might be able to stave off tolerance longer than others. But back to dopamine there are different neural tracts that have dopamine receptors. One is the mesolimbic which is where bupropion has an affect. Other dopaminergic compounds (like adderall) also hit the mesocortical pathway, and that one can be associated with fatigue if the dopamine levels increase too much. So I guess what I’m saying is each drug affects different dopamine pathways in a different way. So that can add to the complexity of predicting what caused what. But yeah keep experimenting. If the lower dose doesn’t feel good it sounds like you might have a good dose at 100.

 

[jarrellt67]

Yeah it could be related to acetylcholine as well. I didn’t know you were taking medications that could influence dopamine. To be honest bupropion does affect dopamine but it mostly increases NE when you compare the two. With standard racetams they do work through AMPA receptors and other combinations of glutamate and acetylcholine changes. Phenylracetam seems to have a dopaminergic effect. At least from what I’ve read that’s what I assume is happening. You also might be taking it too often. Though there isn’t a manual on its usage and some might be able to stave off tolerance longer than others. But back to dopamine there are different neural tracts that have dopamine receptors. One is the mesolimbic which is where bupropion has an affect. Other dopaminergic compounds (like adderall) also hit the mesocortical pathway, and that one can be associated with fatigue if the dopamine levels increase too much. So I guess what I’m saying is each drug affects different dopamine pathways in a different way. So that can add to the complexity of predicting what caused what. But yeah keep experimenting. If the lower dose doesn’t feel good it sounds like you might have a good dose at 100.

Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it. I'll try 50 mg of phenylpiracetam tomorrow and see how it goes. Just to clarify, I'm not currently taking any of those medications...I was just giving my general responses when I did try them.