Adaptogens Pre-Workout?

[avega17]

Anyone take the common Ashwagandha, Rhodiola and/or Bacopa as part of their pre-workout stack? I know Ash in particular has data on boosting anaerobic performance, and the other two help with focus, albeit long-term more so than acute. My concerns are the cortisol lowering effects, as I understand that the transient cortisol spike during a workout is favorable?

I have tried the addition before, and haven't noticed much other then maybe a calming affect that could have taken away from the workout. But I haven't tried it enough to make a conclusion.

Thoughts?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Anyone take the common Ashwagandha, Rhodiola and/or Bacopa as part of their pre-workout stack? I know Ash in particular has data on boosting anaerobic performance, and the other two help with focus, albeit long-term more so than acute. My concerns are the cortisol lowering effects, as I understand that the transient cortisol spike during a workout is favorable?

I have tried the addition before, and haven't noticed much other then maybe a calming affect that could have taken away from the workout. But I haven't tried it enough to make a conclusion.

Thoughts?

Rhodiola makes a nice addition to a pre-workout. Besides the fatigue-reducing effects, it has acute exercise benefits:

Acute R. rosea ingestion decreases heart rate response to submaximal exercise and appears to improve endurance exercise performance by decreasing the perception of effort.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23443221

Acute Rhodiola rosea intake can improve endurance exercise capacity in young healthy volunteers. This response was not altered by prior daily 4-week Rhodiola intake.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15256690

I'm not aware of any studies showing acute effects with ashwagandha supplementation. Anecdotally, it has calming effects for a lot of people. Some people get a bit tired from it. I don't get tired, but I do find it gives me more of a calm energy than a "diry" or "angry" energy, so it really depends on what type of energy you want pre-workout (it seems to take the "edge" off of stimulants for me). As for bacopa, it may (or may not) have acute nootropic effects, but I wouldn't say it's going to have a very noticeable acute effect in the context of a dedicated pre-workout supplement.

As for the cortisol reducing effects, these adaptogens aren't going to shut down your cortisol production. A study found that PS supplementation reduced cortisol during overtraining, but also lead to an increase in LBM (compared to a reduction in LBM with placebo). Personally, I wouldn't be concerned with it.

What doses of each have you tried?

 

[avega17]

Rhodiola makes a nice addition to a pre-workout. Besides the fatigue-reducing effects, it has acute exercise benefits:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23443221

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15256690

I'm not aware of any studies showing acute effects with ashwagandha supplementation. Anecdotally, it has calming effects for a lot of people. Some people get a bit tired from it. I don't get tired, but I do find it gives me more of a calm energy than a "diry" or "angry" energy, so it really depends on what type of energy you want pre-workout (it seems to take the "edge" off of stimulants for me). As for bacopa, it may (or may not) have acute nootropic effects, but I wouldn't say it's going to have a very noticeable acute effect in the context of a dedicated pre-workout supplement.

As for the cortisol reducing effects, these adaptogens aren't going to shut down your cortisol production. A study found that PS supplementation reduced cortisol during overtraining, but also lead to an increase in LBM (compared to a reduction in LBM with placebo). Personally, I wouldn't be concerned with it.

What doses of each have you tried?

Thanks for the links. I've tried 250mg Bacogzine, 250mg KSM-66, and 500mg 3% rosavins/1% salidrosides (still trying to get my hands on a higher salidroside extract to try out).

I guess I'll try just Rhodiola pre.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Thanks for the links. I've tried 250mg Bacogzine, 250mg KSM-66, and 500mg 3% rosavins/1% salidrosides (still trying to get my hands on a higher salidroside extract to try out).

I guess I'll try just Rhodiola pre.

You may actually want to try a lower dose of rhodiola. I've heard that people respond a bit differently to higher or lower doses (in regards to energy/stimulating effects). The two studies that noted acute exercise benefits used 200mg and 3 mg/kg (200-300mg for the majority of people) of a 3% rosavin and 1% salidroside extract. Higher doses aren't always more effective; in one study, 555mg of SHR-5 rhodiola wasn't significantly different than 370mg, and as little as 100mg of SHR-5 rhodiola has shown benefits. I'm also looking for an extract that's a bit higher in salidrosides, but I still want there to be a decent rosavin content as well; some high salidroside extracts (3%) have little to no rosavin content. I'm thinking a 3% rosavin and 2-3% salidroside extract (basically what SHR-5 is) would be ideal.

 

[avega17]

You may actually want to try a lower dose of rhodiola. I've heard that people respond a bit differently to higher or lower doses (in regards to energy/stimulating effects). The two studies that noted acute exercise benefits used 200mg and 3 mg/kg (200-300mg for the majority of people) of a 3% rosavin and 1% salidroside extract. Higher doses aren't always more effective; in one study, 555mg of SHR-5 rhodiola wasn't significantly different than 370mg, and as little as 100mg of SHR-5 rhodiola has shown benefits. I'm also looking for an extract that's a bit higher in salidrosides, but I still want there to be a decent rosavin content as well; some high salidroside extracts (3%) have little to no rosavin content. I'm thinking a 3% rosavin and 2-3% salidroside extract (basically what SHR-5 is) would be ideal.

Gotta find another source then. I'm using NOW Rhodiola caps and they come in 500mg. Send me a message if you happen to find that extract.

 

[3RT]

As for Rhodiola extracts, mod edit: nope is Salidrosides std. and Ceretropic's Super Rhodiola (or smth like that name) seems to have some good feedback. The latter is kind of pricy iirc and I have a hard time to get their products to Russia, so I never tried it. The former I liked much more than NOW's and even well-reputable Eclectic Institute's ones, but woldn't say I'm satisfied. And yes - higher doses of Rho are sedative for most people.

Schizandrin in the other hand is pretty nice stuff. Liked it a lot pre- and in many different situations.

Also adaptogens are widely used to reduce tolerans for the stimulants.

I often advise people I see irl to get eleuthero+rho+schzandra tinctures in pharmacy (very common here) and start with tsp of each before morning workout and adjust from there, if they see and understand th benefits after trying. Last few times it worked for them..

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Gotta find another source then. I'm using NOW Rhodiola caps and they come in 500mg. Send me a message if you happen to find that extract.

Life Extension has 250mg caps of 3% rosavin and >1% (I read 1-2%) salidroside.

 

[avega17]

Life Extension has 250mg caps of 3% rosavin and >1% (I read 1-2%) salidroside.

Have you seen any 3-5% or higher salidroside extract?

 

[avega17]

Update on Rhodiala pre-workout. It's been 3 days straight of 500mg 3% Rho with my normal preworkout mix, and I'd have to say my mood/focus and stamina have subtly but noticeably improved. Going to keep it this way and monitor for more. Previously, I was dosing AM and PM, but now AM and Pre

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Update on Rhodiala pre-workout. It's been 3 days straight of 500mg 3% Rho with my normal preworkout mix, and I'd have to say my mood/focus and stamina have subtly but noticeably improved. Going to keep it this way and monitor for more. Previously, I was dosing AM and PM, but now AM and Pre

There are multiple studies showing that rhidiola has acute endurance benefits.

Are you taking 500mg 2x daily?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Have you seen any 3-5% or higher salidroside extract?

There are quite a few 3% salodroside extracts (they tend to be from bulk suppliers), but they frequently have little to no rosavins (based on the COAs I've seen), so aren't ideal extracts.

I've seen a few 2% salidroside & 3% rosavin extracts (which is similar to SHR-5), but I've only seen one extract with 3% salidroside and a high rosavin content; it was 3% salodroside and 5% rosavin. I'm waiting on a COA for it, because that's unusually high.

 

[avega17]

There are multiple studies showing that rhidiola has acute endurance benefits.

Are you taking 500mg 2x daily?

Yes, 500mg 2x daily

 

[avega17]

There are quite a few 3% salodroside extracts (they tend to be from bulk suppliers), but they frequently have little to no rosavins (based on the COAs I've seen), so aren't ideal extracts.

I've seen a few 2% salidroside & 3% rosavin extracts (which is similar to SHR-5), but I've only seen one extract with 3% salidroside and a high rosavin content; it was 3% salodroside and 5% rosavin. I'm waiting on a COA for it, because that's unusually high.

Let me know if it ever comes through