Got my "Clomid test" results and more per Dr. Shippen's request: What do they mean?

[anyman]

Got my "Clomid test" results and more per Dr. Shippen's request: What do they mean?

As some here may know, Dr. Shippen and others of his caliber sometimes use a low dose of Clomid to "rev" the HPTA, so to speak, and see what happens as a way of determining what part of the hypothalmic-pituitary-testicular axis went awry.

Just got my results and much to my amazement the brief 7 day very low dose treatment made a difference. I saw a full 50% increase in T and even greater increases in FSH and LH. Here are the results as well as some other results which I'd appreciate input on as well:

Total T: 319 (up from around 200)
FSH: 2.4 (up a good 100%)
LH: 5.0 (up over 100%)

Here are some other results which are interesting and which I'd like info on as well:

Estradiol: <32 (ref range: <52 pg/ml)
Cortisol: 18.5 (ref range: (morning): 4.0-22)
DHEAS: 250 (ref range: 45-345 mcg/dL)
DHT: 18 (ref range: 25-75 ng/dL)
IGF-1 181 (ref range: 86-220)

I get the the clomid apparently "worked", at least to the extent that my system responded, but am a bit fuzzy as to what the means and what options, if any, I now have. I'm also a bit unclear as to what the DHEAS, DHT and IGF-1 results imply.

Any thoughts or ideas? As always, thanks in advance.

 

[JanSz]

As some here may know, Dr. Shippen and others of his caliber sometimes use a low dose of Clomid to "rev" the HPTA, so to speak, and see what happens as a way of determining what part of the hypothalmic-pituitary-testicular axis went awry.

Just got my results and much to my amazement the brief 7 day very low dose treatment made a difference. I saw a full 50% increase in T and even greater increases in FSH and LH. Here are the results as well as some other results which I'd appreciate input on as well:

Total T: 319 (up from around 200)
FSH: 2.4 (up a good 100%)
LH: 5.0 (up over 100%)

Here are some other results which are interesting and which I'd like info on as well:

Estradiol: <32 (ref range: <52 pg/ml)
Cortisol: 18.5 (ref range: (morning): 4.0-22)
DHEAS: 250 (ref range: 45-345 mcg/dL)
DHT: 18 (ref range: 25-75 ng/dL)
IGF-1 181 (ref range: 86-220)

I get the the clomid apparently "worked", at least to the extent that my system responded, but am a bit fuzzy as to what the means and what options, if any, I now have. I'm also a bit unclear as to what the DHEAS, DHT and IGF-1 results imply.

Any thoughts or ideas? As always, thanks in advance.

You are still low on T. Since your testis are working (a little), make sure any T supplementation includes HCG.

You have got wrong estradiol test.
Get ultra-sensitive from Quest, and a bunch of other estrogens while you are at it.
DHEA-low, get pregnenolone compounded cream, pills are not working (usually)
DHT -low, bad news, have you been on finasteride?
DHT-cream or T-cream straigh on a scrotal area, people a getting flamed for suggesting this. Do this when everything else fails.
Actually you are logical candidate for Androgel or T-cream, ie; transdermals.


There are tons of other tests that you should do.
Up to you.
I can post a list if interested.

 

[anyman]

Interesting, Jansz- You ask a great question, but first allow me to clarify (more)

The clomid was just a brief test-it was a low dose-- 1/2 a 50mg (??)) tablet for only 7 days, with blood work on the 8th. Per Dr. Shippen it was only intended to "rev the engine" (his words) to help determine where the problem lies. It was a limited test only and never intended as a solution. I was encouraged that I could see any results after only a week at a low dose.

I was quite interested and snapped to attention when I saw your mention of finistaride. If I remember, that is propecia, which I tried briefly (about a month or so) a good 8-9 or more years ago or more. I was one of the supposed few who had erectile issues and dropped it rather quickly. Is it possible that a months's exposure to tht crap is the root cause years later? I wonder.......

One more thing- I did try Androgel several months back. Did nothing for me. I was told it was "aromatizing". Can't see deliberately shutting myself down for good unless all other possible options have been exhausted. To me, TRT is the option of last resort if I cannot be repaired to an appreciable extent. This is why I sought out Shippen- He is said to eschew TRT unless all else has failed. Makes sense to me. Why rebuild the motor if all I have is a flat tire?

 

[engival]

did you feel any different on the CLomid test?

i did the same clomi test from dr. shippen.
my test went from 360ng/dl to 862 ng/dl

so dr. shippen got me on 15mg Clomi 3x a week and .5mg of Seleginine daily

 

[anyman]

I felt perhaps slightly different, but nothing dramatic. I only hit 319 or so (m)

did you feel any different on the CLomid test?

i did the same clomi test from dr. shippen.
my test went from 360ng/dl to 862 ng/dl

so dr. shippen got me on 15mg Clomi 3x a week and .5mg of Seleginine daily

Interesting..... Seems some people respond more than others. I experienced a 50% increase, while you had an over 100% change. Seeing as how I only hit 319 or so, that;s still not enough to make much of a difference. But, at least it showed me that there is hope.

What did he tell you with regard to this issue? How long have you been on this regimine and how have you been feeling?

What a roller coaster. Every time I think I have a handle on things I learn something new. Now I am REALLY wondering where this will go!

 

[phatkid77]

so 15mg 3x/wk of clomid a week more than doubled your levels?? so are you on this for life?? doesnt clomid bring its own set of sides?

 

[engival]

no dr. shippen thinks i'll only need it for a few months.
i feel the same, but yesterday was the first day i started treatment, i only just saw shippen for the first time on wednesday.
i thought hed give me hCG but he told me clomi will be better for me.

yeah my T levels will probably stabilize around 700-900, thats why im hoping for, i'll find out in 2-3 weeks when i retest my T

 

[smc252]

I believe this tests distinguishes between primary and secondary.

With such a low response, it appears you may be primary. To the others getting great responses, secondary.

 

[biker340]

no dr. shippen thinks i'll only need it for a few months.
i feel the same, but yesterday was the first day i started treatment, i only just saw shippen for the first time on wednesday.
i thought hed give me hCG but he told me clomi will be better for me.

yeah my T levels will probably stabilize around 700-900, thats why im hoping for, i'll find out in 2-3 weeks when i retest my T

most docs will try Clomid first before writing scripts for HCG.

My doc placed me on Clomid after being shut down by Androgel.. I was tested after taking 50 mg/d for a month.
I showed no improvement In test levels. Doc was going to place me on HCG, but at the last minute changed his mind and said "give Clomid another month". I will be tested again in early July after being on Clomid for 2 months. I feel no better and look forward to trying HCG. If HCG doesn't raise it, I going to have the doc check for a pituitary tumor..

 

[engival]

well im hoping Clomi plus Seleginine will help me out alot, dr. shippen talks about Seleginine increasing testosterone levels as well and having a positive effect on well being/energy.

 

[anyman]

Primary is possible, but seems unlikely as the main characteristics are missing (m)

I believe this tests distinguishes between primary and secondary.

With such a low response, it appears you may be primary. To the others getting great responses, secondary.

As I understand it, the classic indicator of Primary is low T in the presence of elevated FSH and LH. I have low T and very low FSH & LH. See here: http://www.harrisonspractice.com/practice/ub/view/Harrison's_Practice/Male%20Hypogonadism/141311/0

See, also, here: http://www.aace.com/pub/pdf/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

I just don't know what to think- True, my level only increased to 319 from 200, but is this due to a poor response or the fact that it was only intended to be a limited and short test? Take a look at page 5 and note the test's description wherein it says a doubling of LH, etc at the 100mg ( I only had 25mg) indicates a functioning axis. I'll have to clear this all up with Shippen.

In the interim, however, what the **** does all this mean? Talk about confused......

 

[jaydee]

The clomid was just a brief test-it was a low dose-- 1/2 a 50mg (??)) tablet for only 7 days, with blood work on the 8th. Per Dr. Shippen it was only intended to "rev the engine" (his words) to help determine where the problem lies. It was a limited test only and never intended as a solution. I was encouraged that I could see any results after only a week at a low dose.

I was quite interested and snapped to attention when I saw your mention of finistaride. If I remember, that is propecia, which I tried briefly (about a month or so) a good 8-9 or more years ago or more. I was one of the supposed few who had erectile issues and dropped it rather quickly. Is it possible that a months's exposure to tht crap is the root cause years later? I wonder.......

One more thing- I did try Androgel several months back. Did nothing for me. I was told it was "aromatizing". Can't see deliberately shutting myself down for good unless all other possible options have been exhausted. To me, TRT is the option of last resort if I cannot be repaired to an appreciable extent. This is why I sought out Shippen- He is said to eschew TRT unless all else has failed. Makes sense to me. Why rebuild the motor if all I have is a flat tire?

Have you told Dr Shippen about the finasteride use and if so what did he say about it? From what I have heard, one month is certainly enough time on it to cause you some problems. What problems I dont know. Your blood work is very similar to mine and that of other ex-finasteride users. The hallmark low LH and FSH and low Total T and DHT in the dirt.

When you were previously on TRT and did not respond, how did your doctor come to the conclusion that you were aromatizing? Is his claims backed up by any blood work or did he just assume that thats what was happening?

 

[anyman]

Shippen asks for a letter synopsis of symptoms. I mentioned this in it (more)

Have you told Dr Shippen about the finasteride use and if so what did he say about it? From what I have heard, one month is certainly enough time on it to cause you some problems. What problems I dont know. Your blood work is very similar to mine and that of other ex-finasteride users. The hallmark low LH and FSH and low Total T and DHT in the dirt.

When you were previously on TRT and did not respond, how did your doctor come to the conclusion that you were aromatizing? Is his claims backed up by any blood work or did he just assume that thats what was happening?

I mentioned the Finistaride in my summary. I used it a good 8-9 years ago and seemed to recover after discontinuing it--or so I thought. Since my first appointment is not for another 3weeks I'll know more then.

I briefly (one month) tried Androgel, first 1x/dayand then 2X day at the urging of my now former urologist. I now realize that is the only trick he knows, hence the term "former". During this one month my T only rose from 200 to 300--about the exact same as I sw with only one week at a very low dose (25mg) of clomid.

This whole Finistaride thing is getting me rather upset. Is it possible that something I tried to keep my hair 8 or 9 YEARS ago has come back to haunt me? If so, the makers and distributors of this poison should be drawn and quartered.

I'll obviously know more in a month, but in the interim am seeking input from the group mind, so to speak, so I can better educate myself and ask better questions, the answers to I'll pass on when I finally get them.

 

[jaydee]

This whole Finistaride thing is getting me rather upset. Is it possible that something I tried to keep my hair 8 or 9 YEARS ago has come back to haunt me? If so, the makers and distributors of this poison should be drawn and quartered.

I wouldnt be too concerned about it just yet especially since the TRT effort from your Urologist was a half baked one at best. Not really his department though anyway. You should certainly keep in mind though especially if things start not adding up.

It just rang alarm bells when you said that you failed to respond to TRT as a lot of post-finasteride users do.

Dont even get me started on the distributors of that drug. The doctor didnt smack their ass hard enough when they were born.

 

[JanSz]

I wouldnt get be too concerned about it just yet especially since the TRT effort from your Urologist was a half baked one at best. Not really his department though anyway.

It just rang alarm bells when you said that you failed to respond to TRT as a lot of post-finasteride users do.

Dont even get me started on the distributors of that drug. The doctor didnt smack their ass hard enough when they were born.

I have a mixed feelings about Finasteride/Duosteride, Proscar/Avodart issue.
Supposedly only small % of men get adverse effects, 97% are helped, DHT and hair wise.

Obviously this (minority) group need attention.
It would be useful to have some sensitivity test before finasteride is used, otherwise it is lottery.

I was holding my DHT for many years using Proscar latter Avodart. It helped me, specially when I was on 10grams of Androgel, bassically covered head to toes in that gel. I am not using Avodart for almost a year now. Always feel uneasy about high DHT and my large prostate. I just changed to Depo-T injections. Hopefully one of the benefits is lower DHT.

For someone with DHT below low band I would sugges transdermals, possibly applied to genitals if larger boost is required.

 

[JanSz]

well im hoping Clomi plus Seleginine will help me out alot, dr. shippen talks about Seleginine increasing testosterone levels as well and having a positive effect on well being/energy.

How much and for how long are you supposed to take Seleginine?
Brand name and daily dose.
It is being sold in at least two places on internet,
but we can get script.

What observation in your health prompted him to give you Seleginine?


LEF cannot say enough how good it is.
Life Extension Foundation Offshore Drugs
They talk Deprenyl, what is the name of what you are using.

Quote:
Deprenyl

Deprenyl may be one of the most effective anti-aging therapies in the world. Deprenyl works by inhibiting an enzyme that breaks down dopamine, thereby elevating dopamine levels in the brain and central nervous system. Elevated levels of dopamine can confer an antidepressant effect and increase libido. Deprenyl has extended maximum lifespan in animal studies.
...............
Suggested dose: For healthy people, take 2 tablets a week. Anyone with symptoms of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease should take 10 mg of deprenyl per day under the care of a physician. The use of deprenyl is contraindicated with Prozac and opiate-based pharmaceutical anesthetic or other drugs.
Abstracts: Deprenyl
---------------------------------------------------------

 

[engival]

im taking .5mg daily for afew months, its SLowGel....

its for my low testosterone, slow mind, and weak erections.

 

[hardasnails1973]

im taking .5mg daily for afew months, its SLowGel....

its for my low testosterone, slow mind, and weak erections.

after a few weeks you should raise the dosage? .5 every 2-3 weeks based on how you feel?

 

[aculpep]

I tried selegine awhile back and didn't feel any difference at all with it. Hope you have better luck.

well im hoping Clomi plus Seleginine will help me out alot, dr. shippen talks about Seleginine increasing testosterone levels as well and having a positive effect on well being/energy.

 

[engival]

after a few weeks you should raise the dosage? .5 every 2-3 weeks based on how you feel?


Yes im suppose to increase slowly till 1mg


this isnt good alot of people dont feel much different on clomi or seleginine =[

 

[JanSz]

I tried selegine awhile back and didn't feel any difference at all with it. Hope you have better luck.

What condition should one have or what in the blood to indicate need for seleginine?

Why have you used seleginine?

 

[engival]

aculpep, did Sele raise your T levels, or it did but you still didnt feel good?


i mean clomi must be the anwer for me, it raised my T levels to like 890, i mean if clomi and sele and armour doesnt make me feel like a MAN, than im not sure if anything will!

 

[hardasnails1973]

did you feel any different on the CLomid test?

i did the same clomi test from dr. shippen.
my test went from 360ng/dl to 862 ng/dl

so dr. shippen got me on 15mg Clomi 3x a week and .5mg of Seleginine daily

That is really a small dosage of clomid and in past most side effects have been with 50 -100 mgs a day. IF you thats all it takes for you to feel normal again. it beats injecting your self and caking on gels all over your body for rest of your life and goto an endo they stick you on something that is going to suppress your nuts and lower testosterone even more. :wtf: as shippen said "endos are ignorant" Pretty much sums it up but there are good endos out there as welll, but your better off winning the lottery..

 

[anyman]

Damn-- that is what I was starting to think- What does a "failed" test indicate?

The Clomid Stimulation test failed. There really is no difference between the baseline and resultant numbers.

That's the wrong Estradiol assay. Besides, you cannot test E's with a SERM-class drug on board.

Thank you, Dr. John-

About all I can say is "damn". Actually, I could say much more, but it's all unprintable. Just when I thought there may be some hope, I am now beginning to I feel as though what little hope I had has been cut out from under me.

Not sure where this leaves me, but I don't think I'll like the answer......

What does a "failed" clomid test indicate? Where does this leave me other than "screwed"?

Seems like there a few correlations can be drawn between levels of SHBG & E2, etc and responses to the clomid test. I have rather low SHBG (11) and DHT and saw only a 50% increase in T. Too bad I am not educated enough to connect all the dots. I suppose that's why we have Dr. John and Dr. Shippen et al.

Is there anyone who can connect the dots and explain the relationship amond SHBG, DHT, E2 and total T? While I am asking, what exactly does the clomid test indicate? Does it test between the hypothalmus and pituitary, or is there something else going on?

 

[engival]

my best friend (22) has low T around 380, his doc is putting him on
T shots, his doc never tested his LH/FSH, he told him

"LH/FSH are mostly for women, we know your testosterone is low, so T-shots should get it right up"

 

[anyman]

The ignorance displayed is shocking.

my best friend (22) has low T around 380, his doc is putting him on
T shots, his doc never tested his LH/FSH, he told him

"LH/FSH are mostly for women, we know your testosterone is low, so T-shots should get it right up"

No wonder so many of us feel so crappy with this level of ignorance in the medical community. This doctor can only hope he doesn't find himself "castrated" like some of us here and treated with the same level of ignorance.

 

[JanSz]

Thank you, Dr. John-

About all I can say is "damn". Actually, I could say much more, but it's all unprintable.

What does a "failed" clomid test indicate? Where does this leave me other than "screwed"?

Seems like there a few correlations can be drawn between levels of SHBG & E2, etc and responses to the clomid test. I have rather low SHBG (11) and DHT and saw only a 50% increase in T. Too bad I am not educated enough to connect all the dots. I suppose that's why we have Dr. John and Dr. Shippen et al.

Is there anyone who can connect the dots and explain the relationship amond SHBG, DHT, E2 and total T? While I am asking, what exactty does the clomid test indicate? Does it test between the hypothalmus and pituitary, or is there something else going on?

Your nuts are not producing.
You are former finasteride user.

I do not know about rest of the dots but low SHBG and DHT are real big ones.

Watch out for anything that may be used for lowering SHBG.

There is thread going that discusses low SHBG, check it out.

If that was me I would spend $3k's on long blood test and try to divine something.

Assuming you have insurance or money, you are still facing problem, most doctors are afraid to prescribe long tests, insurance and lawyers peer pressure.

Look what anti-aging clinics are doing.
They take your $10000 and test 5 or 6 items, shame.

 

[hardasnails1973]

my best friend (22) has low T around 380, his doc is putting him on
T shots, his doc never tested his LH/FSH, he told him

"LH/FSH are mostly for women, we know your testosterone is low, so T-shots should get it right up"

Did same thing to me. Endo goes "your pituitary is a sleep we will wake it up with some testosterone " :stick:
I saw my lh was low normal but he said "your still in range"

 

[anyman]

Thanks, JansZ, but I am still confused--and increasingly aggravated by. (more)

Your nuts are not producing.
You are former finasteride user.

I do not know about rest of the dots but low SHBG and DHT are real big ones.

Watch out for anything that may be used for lowering SHBG.

If that was me I would spend $3k's on long blood test and try to divine something.

.

I just don't understand the situation. My FSH & LH are low, which generally indicates secondary issues, yet some here say the problem may be testicular. Seems inherently contradictory. The Finasteride angle, if true, is REALLY starting to piss me off. How the hell can a company sell something that castrates it's customers? I'd like to finid the makers and shove about 200 pills down their throats. Let's see how they like the side effects!

I don't know what to believe or think anymore. I am supposed to see Dr. S in another 3 1/2 weeks, so perhaps I'll know more then. Might not like the answers, however...... This whole thing is depressing me and then some. Never thought the early 40s was the beginning of the end, but that's how it's starting to look.

As for the blood work, I am keeping it in mind. Want to see what Dr S, etc has to say first before investing that kind of $$. Don't know what would be covered, but so far I've been OK.

Thanks again for taking the time to comment.

 

[hardasnails1973]

I just don't understand the situation. My FSH & LH are low, which generally indicates secondary issues, yet some here say the problem may be testicular. Seems inherently contradictory. The Finasteride angle, if true, is REALLY starting to piss me off. How the hell can a company sell something that castrates it's customers? I'd like to finid the makers and shove about 200 pills down their throats. Let's see how they like the side effects!

I don't know what to believe or think anymore. I am supposed to see Dr. S in another 3 1/2 weeks, so perhaps I'll know more then. Might not like the answers, however...... This whole thing is depressing me and then some. Never thought the early 40s was the beginning of the end, but that's how it's starting to look.

As for the blood work, I am keeping it in mind. Want to see what Dr S, etc has to say first before investing that kind of $$. Don't know what would be covered, but so far I've been OK.

Thanks again for taking the time to comment.

I know shippen is not big into supplements unless they are needed. He said by adding this and that into the pot how do you really know if the treatment is working or not. Less variables less chances for in valid data. Shot gunning approach usually back fires..

 

[hardasnails1973]

I was delighted during my first conversation with Dr. Shippen, when he confirmed 25mg Clomid is a "whalloping dose."

and all these idiot body builders have been taking 300 mgs a day for 2 days 100 for 7 then 50 for 7 (i was one of the idiots long time ago) never touch it again it made me a crying baby and ready to jump off a bridge or drive my car into a telelphone pole..suicidal time bomb..

 

[rockstar6181]

Dr John do you prefare Clomid to Tamofxien for HPTA restart?

 

[aculpep]

I couldn't tell you as I didnt know anything back then. I didnt do any tests, I just knew I didn't feel right and read something about selegeline raising dopamine levels. Back then there was no reference to it raising T levels. Above a very small does it causes problems with other things so I only took small (5mg cant remember) Didnt feel anything at all. Still have the boxes though.
I assume you dont want to stay on clomid with all the dangers of vision problems. I take this was a short term test.

aculpep, did Sele raise your T levels, or it did but you still didnt feel good?


i mean clomi must be the anwer for me, it raised my T levels to like 890, i mean if clomi and sele and armour doesnt make me feel like a MAN, than im not sure if anything will!

 

[plymouth city]

I do now.

Ask me again in a month--perhaps I will have changed my mind, again.

How to you feel about HMG + hCG EOD 4 week cycles with Vit E? This is the new protocol making the rounds......