vegetarian diet / Soy = Higher T?

[engival]

i been reading in Dr. Shippen's book and he recommends more of a vegetarian diet and taking in Soy Protein, is this best for keep T levels up and estrogen down?

 

[BigJimCalhoun]

I read that too and was going to post about it once. Everything else we hear says soy increases estrogen. That's why they tell menopausal women and people in Boulder, CO to take it.

 

[ItsHectic]

I have heard estrogen can releive symptoms of hypogonadism. So I would assume testosterone can relieve symptoms of menopause.
I think its time for a pub med search.

 

[JanSz]

i been reading in Dr. Shippen's book and he recommends more of a vegetarian diet and taking in Soy Protein, is this best for keep T levels up and estrogen down?

Look at the date the book was writen (and hopefully in correct direction).
It is cutting edge,
changes in pov are frequent.
==================
At on time Dr John was recomending flax seed, now he does not.

 

[plymouth city]

Excessive soy is now known to be a contributer to hypothyroidism

 

[MongolHahn]

Soy consumption will increase chances of hypogonadism and feminization of young males. For up to date information on soy problems and diet in general, check out these links:

http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtsoy.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/ploy.html
http://reliableanswers.com/med/soy.asp
http://chetday.com/soy.html
http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/
http://www.mercola.com/2005/feb/26/soy_myths.htm
http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm

Also:

http://thyroid.about.com/cs/soyinfo/a/soy.htm
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/soy.htm
http://www.voiceofreason.info/Health/Soy.htm
http://www.karinya.com/soydangers.htm
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_143soy
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_87prote
http://www.jcoach.com/Enlightening-Articles/The-Reasons-to-Avoid-Soy.html
http://www.bullz-eye.com/furci/2004/021901.htm

Most of these are from experts to include research scientists and reference numerous medical sources.

Also, Dr. Shippen's most recent edition book was written in 1998... almost ten years ago. A lot of evidence has been surfacing since then!

 

[Kingneptune40]

I have to agree with PlymouthCity and others, almost all research I have been reading indicates that "soy" causes problems with the thyroid and also increases estrogen effects on the male body.........Soy was the "fad" nutrient when it came out in the 90's in this country, but as I remember, that was also when we had the high carb/low protein movement too.......in the early 90's...........Then it rebounded into the high protein/ low carb of Dr Atkins in the late 90's.........

Moderation is the key, but I would rely on the "body-builders" diet, which has stood the test of time........Lean cuts of protein, lots of fish, eggs, and Omega-3's..........Low glycemic index carbs, fruits, veggies, quality supplements and exercise..........I find it interesting that this protocol has been around forever in the weightlifting "world", while the "fad diets" in this country are always going back and forth.........

My only complaint with consuming lots of meat is the addition of bovine growth hormone and anti-biotics that are injected into our cattle........Not to mention the quality of "feed" that they are giving to beef and chicken..........Organic is the best way to go, or buy local if you know some area farmers who raise cattle the right way.........

I found out the other day that the "farm raised" catfish and shrimp I have been buying have actually been fed with that "wheat gluten" from China that was contaminated with Melamine(sp), which was in all of the tainted pet food.........You just have to be hyper-vigilant in finding clean "cuts" of meat nowadays...........

 

[pmgamer18]

I have been helping men with low T on the boards for over 6yrs. And have heard everything out there. One young man in the Bahamas posted to me that he feels like he has low Testosterone I asked him to post his labs and he said he can't get any good labs in the Bahamas. He said he has been reading on the web about low T and feels he has it. I tried to tell him that if he lives a party life and has a lot of stress in his life this can lower T leves just trying to help him out.

Well he got back to me and sounded a bit upset saying that he lives a dam healthy life stye that his Diet is the best there is that he drinks a quart of SOY MILK a day.

I told him this is his problem the SOY MILK acts like Estradiol in his cells and takes up the space in them. His brain can't tell the difference between Estradiol and Testosterone and thinks the SOY marker for Estradiol is Testosterone and stops sending the LH and FSH messages to his testis to make more T. I told him SOY is not good for men stop drinking it and your levels should come back up. His big problem was he had some bad ED.

I heard back from him in about a month that all was back to normal.

Now just think about this the stores are pushing SOY MILK on mothers to give to there baby boys.

 

[engival]

dr. john what kind of diet do you recommend?

 

[hardasnails1973]

Dr. Shippen has changed his mind about several things in his book. I've similarly reversed myself along the way. This is a rapidly evolving field.

I'm preparing some questions for my freind to ask the man him self and this is going to be one of them ..

Would soy lechtithan granules fall into this catagory as well because I am looking to increase my source of choline which this is a viable source for sure for cell membrane structure. I know choline does flush out ones liver very well. and my RBC testing should I was low, but also estrogen imbalances can cause alteration in choline absorption as well

Estrogens have been shown to be important for the differentiation of certain nuclei of the brain (Gorski et al., 1980), and recent evidence suggests that estrogens may be important for normal brain function throughout life (Simpkins et al., 1994). In adult rats, estradiol (E2) has been shown to enhance sprouting of commissural association fibers in the hippocampal dentate gyrus after entorhinal cortex lesions (Morse et al., 1986). Estrogen environment influences the synaptology of the hippocampus, because changes in synaptic density in the CA1 region are associated with endogenous (Wooley and McEwen, 1992) and exogenous (Wooley et al., 1990) levels of 17-estradiol (17-E2). Recently, we have shown that 17-E2 induced the expression of the neurotrophic factors, nerve growth factor, and brain-derived neurotrophic factor (Singh et al., 1993, 1995). We and others have observed an increase in the high affinity uptake of choline (O'Malley et al., 1987; Singh et al., 1994), in the levels of choline acetyltransferase (Luine et al., 1975, 1980; Singh et al., 1994), and in the performance of memory-related behavioral tasks (Singh et al., 1994) after estrogen treatment of ovariectomized rats. Collectively, these results indicate that estrogens are important in the maintenance of normal neuronal function related to cognition, an observation consistent with the studies of Sherwin et al. (Sherwin, 1988; Phillips and Sherwin, 1992) showing steroid modulation of memory and cognition in women subjected to surgical menopause.

17alpha -Estradiol Exerts Neuroprotective Effects on SK-N-SH Cells -- Green et al. 17 (2): 511 -- Journal of Neuroscience

Now the question is does this apply to also male as well?
i know e2 can interfer with methylation of the body and also this can acuse choline defieincy as well..

 

[Headdoc]

I'm preparing some questions for my freind to ask the man him self and this is going to be one of them ..

Would soy lechtithan granules fall into this catagory as well because I am looking to increase my source of choline which this is a viable source for sure for cell membrane structure. I know choline does flush out ones liver very well. and my RBC testing should I was low, but also estrogen imbalances can cause alteration in choline absorption as well

Estrogens have been shown to be important for the differentiation of certain nuclei of the brain (Gorski et al., 1980), and recent evidence suggests that estrogens may be important for normal brain function throughout life (Simpkins et al., 1994). In adult rats, estradiol (E2) has been shown to enhance sprouting of commissural association fibers in the hippocampal dentate gyrus after entorhinal cortex lesions (Morse et al., 1986). Estrogen environment influences the synaptology of the hippocampus, because changes in synaptic density in the CA1 region are associated with endogenous (Wooley and McEwen, 1992) and exogenous (Wooley et al., 1990) levels of 17-estradiol (17-E2). Recently, we have shown that 17-E2 induced the expression of the neurotrophic factors, nerve growth factor, and brain-derived neurotrophic factor (Singh et al., 1993, 1995). We and others have observed an increase in the high affinity uptake of choline (O'Malley et al., 1987; Singh et al., 1994), in the levels of choline acetyltransferase (Luine et al., 1975, 1980; Singh et al., 1994), and in the performance of memory-related behavioral tasks (Singh et al., 1994) after estrogen treatment of ovariectomized rats. Collectively, these results indicate that estrogens are important in the maintenance of normal neuronal function related to cognition, an observation consistent with the studies of Sherwin et al. (Sherwin, 1988; Phillips and Sherwin, 1992) showing steroid modulation of memory and cognition in women subjected to surgical menopause.

17alpha -Estradiol Exerts Neuroprotective Effects on SK-N-SH Cells -- Green et al. 17 (2): 511 -- Journal of Neuroscience

Now the question is does this apply to also male as well?
i know e2 can interfer with methylation of the body and also this can acuse choline defieincy as well..

this applies to males as well. Aromatase does the trick for us. The brain doesn't need much estrogen but it does need some. One author, please don't ask the source, as I cannot recall, speculated that the incidence of old age dementias is lower in males is due to our higher levels of testosterone and hence more estrogen in the brain--this certainly applies to Alzheimers. I raised this point with the folks at the Johns Hopkins' Alzheimers Center and this was the response I got. So relative to estrogen, as males we need some----certainly for our bones, and certainly for our brains.

 

[Headdoc]

I'd ask this author how then it can be TRT has shown such neuroprotective protective effects.

It looks like the estrogen thatis so good for our brains is made witin the brain itself--not riding in on the blood. That is why e must be so careful not to lower E too much, as AI's work in the brain parenchyma as well, I prefer competitive inhibitors over suicide inhibitors, and no long term SERM use.

Thoughts, HeadDoc?

I am not sure. I am agreeing that TRT is neuroprotective. However, optimal TRT is a balance of hormones. Rather than speculate on mechanism I am not sure of, I wish Marianco was here to elaborate. If AI's work in the brain, then hormones and their inhibitors are there also. The thread is about soy, estrogen, and the brain. When I started HRT a few year ago, the doctor who was looking at my bloodwork and my wife's looked up at the both of us and annouced that I had more estrogen floating around than my wife. For an older guy like myself this situation would have long term deleterious effects on my brain, my heart, etc. And yes, there would also be negative psychological effects--depression, anxiety, poor focus and attention, etc.

 

[Headdoc]

One other point about the thread, the author asks about a vegetarian diet. This diet, long term, significantly and harmfully, lowers cholesterol. With it comes a decrease in all of the hormones. Cholesterol is needed to build the hormones. The incidence of hypogonadism is higher among vegetarians than meat eaters.

 

[JanSz]

The key take home point here is that estrogens, like all hormones, need be in the optimimal range.

What is the optimal testosterone and estrogen range?


Until explained otherwise I think it is upper (possibly top of) range of this four Quest Diagnostic items:

Estradiol, Bioavailable (10-50) pg/mL
Estradiol, Free (0.3-0.9) pg/mL
Testosterone Free (46.0-224.0) pg/mL
Testosterone Bioavailable (110.0-575.0) ng/dL

 

[Skeptic]

I am allergic to milk so a few years ago I was drinking a lot of soy milk and I definitely noticed it killed my libido in high doses, but it seemed to help if I drank it occasionally.

Now I drink almond milk mixed with flax seeds, which I thought was good until I recently read here that it also increases estrogen.

But flax seed has proven to be excellent in combating prostate cancer and because my dad died of prostate cancer, that is a big concern for me, so I will keep drinking it.

Besides, I haven't felt as bad off the flax seed as I used to from the soy milk.

I am a total carnivore, but because all our meats tend to be injected with hormones, it still doesn't solve the problem of estrogens going in our bodies.

 

[engival]

the only liquids i would consum is fresh vegetable juice or water


Almond ''Pasteurization'' May be Worse Than Previously Thought

about Flax seeds

http://www.mercola.com/2004/jul/21/flax_seed_oil.htm

 

[Skeptic]

the only liquids i would consum is fresh vegetable juice or water


Almond ''Pasteurization'' May be Worse Than Previously Thought

about Flax seeds

http://www.mercola.com/2004/jul/21/flax_seed_oil.htm

That sucks about the almonds.

But as far as the flax seeds go, I really can't trust anything from a website that requires me to type in my email address before I can read it.

In the past, I've read some sites (from questionable websites) that say flax seeds increase the risk of prostate cancer, but I've also read many more studies on pubmed that say the complete opposite.

And pubmed never requires me to type in an email address before reading their studies.

 

[MongolHahn]

AWESOME post. Thank you!

You, sir, are most welcome.

The lies being told, sadly by the Health Food Industry as well as the Pharmaceutical Industry about the "benefits" of Soy are shameful. Minimal amounts of fermented soy are OK for you. Not harful but not helful either.

For years the Health Food Industry, the Agri Business Industry and the AMA told us that partially hydrogenated vegetable oils and hydrogenated vegetable oils were excellent for us and that we should consume them - along with vegetable oils in general - in vast quantities to improve our health. Today, these same organizations tell us with extreme urgency that we should consume SERO amounts of trans Fats. Well, what are trans fts? Trans fats are simply a new phrase for partially hydrogenated vegetable oils and hydrogenated vegetable oils. Why change the name? To avoid the embarrassment of having told us for 20 - 30 years that we HAD to be eating partially hydrogenated vegetable oils and hydrogenated vegetable oils and NOT saturated fats. And now it turns out that Trans Fats are killers and saturated fats (to include not only animal fats and butter, but also cocunut oil, palm oil and palm kernel oil) are all good for us!

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/index.html

I predict that in 5 - 10 years (maximum) the truth about Soy will become "news" from the mainstream medical authorities (like they are now - finally - doing with Trans Fats). I also predict that within that time period they will finally "announce" that it is arterial inflammation that is causing blocking of the arteries and that cholesterol has noting to do with it... and that the lower your cholesterol is below 200 the more likely your chance of getting cancer, alzheimer's, parkinson's, dementia, diabetes, etc., etc.

Remember - many of the "clinical tests" showing benefits of various soy products were conducted by researchers with strong ties to the soy industry - and in some cases funded directly by those sources.

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

 

[MongolHahn]

That sucks about the almonds.

But as far as the flax seeds go, I really can't trust anything from a website that requires me to type in my email address before I can read it.

In the past, I've read some sites (from questionable websites) that say flax seeds increase the risk of prostate cancer, but I've also read many more studies on pubmed that say the complete opposite.

And pubmed never requires me to type in an email address before reading their studies.

Don't know about flax seeDs / flax seed powder per se, but clinicl studies have shown on more than one occason that flax seed oil INCREASES the ability to get prostate cancer and worsen existing prostate cancer in males! Dr Weil (spelling?) has - as big a fan as he is of flax seeds -to concede that he no longer recommends flaxseed oil to his male patients.