Free estrogen testing

hitest

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Free Estrogen Testing

This thread is effectively a continuation of the thread called "Muscle injuries despite high T and IGF-1"


Why doesn't anyone seem to talk about getting free estrogen testing like Quest's 36169X - ESTRADIOL, FREE, LC/MS/MS? After all isn't it the free estrogen that matters just like for testosterone. It seems that if your estrogen is in the normal range as per the sensitive estrogen test and your SHBG is high that you may actually have low free estrogen. Is there some problem with free estrogen tests making them less useful than the sensitive total E2 tests?
 
The Matrix

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Why doesn't anyone seem to talk about getting free estrogen testing like Quest's 36169X - ESTRADIOL, FREE, LC/MS/MS? After all isn't it the free estrogen that matters just like for testosterone. It seems that if your estrogen is in the normal range as per the sensitive estrogen test and your SHBG is high that you may actually have low free estrogen. Is there some problem with free estrogen tests making them less useful than the sensitive total E2 tests?
Just test your e2 and SHBG you will be fine. Its an un necessary test which is not covered by most insurances.
 

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Just test your e2 and SHBG you will be fine. Its an un necessary test which is not covered by most insurances.
I did that already and my e2 was in the normal range (albeit at the top of it) and my SHBG is very high. So now I am not sure if my e2 is too high or too low. My symptoms tell me it is one or the other but the test results are ambiguous. It is possible that even if I get the free e2 test that it will still be ambiguous. I was hoping the testing would tell me what to do but it seems that I will have eventually have to just try an AI and see if that helps or not.
 
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I did that already and my e2 was in the normal range (albeit at the top of it) and my SHBG is very high. So now I am not sure if my e2 is too high or too low. My symptoms tell me it is one or the other but the test results are ambiguous. It is possible that even if I get the free e2 test that it will still be ambiguous. I was hoping the testing would tell me what to do but it seems that I will have eventually have to just try an AI and see if that helps or not.
You do not want to try an AI. With SHBG high this indicates other issues such as malabsorption, liver inflammation, insulin issues, ect. You need to properly evaluated on all plains which most dr's miss 50-75% of the equation.

50% lifestyles, nutrition, and stress management
25% hormones
25% genetics
 

pmgamer18

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What are your levels the range for the Quest test I do for Estradiol is 13 to 54 pg/ml anything over 30 pg/ml is to high. But like Matrix says you don't want to go on meds to lower this with out doing labs looking for other problems. One thing I know that we lose with high E2 levels is Rem Sleep Wood if you don't have them your levels are high.
I did that already and my e2 was in the normal range (albeit at the top of it) and my SHBG is very high. So now I am not sure if my e2 is too high or too low. My symptoms tell me it is one or the other but the test results are ambiguous. It is possible that even if I get the free e2 test that it will still be ambiguous. I was hoping the testing would tell me what to do but it seems that I will have eventually have to just try an AI and see if that helps or not.
 

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What are your levels the range for the Quest test I do for Estradiol is 13 to 54 pg/ml anything over 30 pg/ml is to high. But like Matrix says you don't want to go on meds to lower this with out doing labs looking for other problems. One thing I know that we lose with high E2 levels is Rem Sleep Wood if you don't have them your levels are high.
Quest sensitive test result was 28 pg/mL which is just below the reference range of <29 pg/mL. I'm not sure about REM sleep. All I can say is that sometimes I sleep better than others. As for wood, that is sometimes there and sometimes not. I feel like I am fluctuating on the borderline.
 

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You do not want to try an AI. With SHBG high this indicates other issues such as malabsorption, liver inflammation, insulin issues, ect. You need to properly evaluated on all plains which most dr's miss 50-75% of the equation.

50% lifestyles, nutrition, and stress management
25% hormones
25% genetics
I have been more thoroughly evaluated than most. I feel that I've got the first 50% covered as best I can. There are no liver issues or insulin issues. Mal-absorption is in my history but controlled about as well as I can realistically expect for many years now. Mal-absorption was much worse prior to the latest issues that started after 1 year on Avodart. So I've been working on the hormones now. I have a very strong reason to believe that genetically I am more sensitive to estrogen than most men.

I think the best bet is that the Avodart I am taking is driving the SHBG high. I have been trying to lower my dose to test this but that seemed to cause problems of its own. I hope to get retested soon now that I lowered my serum level to 78% of what it was. I'm not sure if there is a good way to completely get off Avodart. Even if I could this would not solve all the problems. I was starting to experience symptoms such as thermoregulation problems prior to Avodart and this was actually helped by the drug.

Why do you think trying an AI is for sure a bad idea in my case? It seems that some people get good benefit from them. I was just thinking to try one as a diagnostic tool to answer the question as to whether lowering E2 slightly helps or hurts my symptoms. I don't see a better way to answer this question.
 
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I have been more thoroughly evaluated than most. I feel that I've got the first 50% covered as best I can. There are no liver issues or insulin issues. Mal-absorption is in my history but controlled about as well as I can realistically expect for many years now. Mal-absorption was much worse prior to the latest issues that started after 1 year on Avodart. So I've been working on the hormones now. I have a very strong reason to believe that genetically I am more sensitive to estrogen than most men.

I think the best bet is that the Avodart I am taking is driving the SHBG high. I have been trying to lower my dose to test this but that seemed to cause problems of its own. I hope to get retested soon now that I lowered my serum level to 78% of what it was. I'm not sure if there is a good way to completely get off Avodart. Even if I could this would not solve all the problems. I was starting to experience symptoms such as thermoregulation problems prior to Avodart and this was actually helped by the drug.

Why do you think trying an AI is for sure a bad idea in my case? It seems that some people get good benefit from them. I was just thinking to try one as a diagnostic tool to answer the question as to whether lowering E2 slightly helps or hurts my symptoms. I don't see a better way to answer this question.
You may have been properly evaluated, but I see alot of red flags which need to be evaluated further. Dr's still did not dig far enough as malabsorption is a major issue which needs immediate attention or it will prevent you from getting better. Balancing the gut and liver has reduce e2 significantly in many people. NO your gut is driving your e2 high as I see it in >75% of cases you need to find out why. Estrogen can come from all aspects, you need to make sure all pathways are clear in order for it metabolized. There are probably factors which are preventing it from lowering it.
 

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Well your Estradiol is less then 30 so your fine a little high try taking some Zinc about 50 mgs / day with 2 mgs or Copper keeping it apart doing Zinc at bedtime and Copper at noon.
Quest sensitive test result was 28 pg/mL which is just below the reference range of <29 pg/mL. I'm not sure about REM sleep. All I can say is that sometimes I sleep better than others. As for wood, that is sometimes there and sometimes not. I feel like I am fluctuating on the borderline.
 

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Well your Estradiol is less then 30 so your fine a little high try taking some Zinc about 50 mgs / day with 2 mgs or Copper keeping it apart doing Zinc at bedtime and Copper at noon.
Thanks for the tip on zinc and copper. I have been taking zinc regularly lately but copper only sporadically. I have no sense of what these do for me.

Estrogen at 28 may or may not be fine. DragonRider as I recall says he needs to be below 15. This is not typical but people do vary and I have a strong reason to believe I am more sensitive to E2 levels than most. It is also unclear how much this value fluctuates. When you are on the edge it can easily go above.
 

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You may have been properly evaluated, but I see alot of red flags which need to be evaluated further. Dr's still did not dig far enough as malabsorption is a major issue which needs immediate attention or it will prevent you from getting better. Balancing the gut and liver has reduce e2 significantly in many people. NO your gut is driving your e2 high as I see it in >75% of cases you need to find out why. Estrogen can come from all aspects, you need to make sure all pathways are clear in order for it metabolized. There are probably factors which are preventing it from lowering it.
Just to be clear, when I said malabsorption is in my history I meant as manifested by food intolerances. This was a big issue for me about 10 years ago and it was a major focus of my doctors at the time. Food intolerances have long ago become practically a non-issue for me and my diet is much more flexible now. The problems I am concerned with now were not present during the worst of my gut issues and so I don't think it is likely the gut issue is a big factor in this now.

Let me point out something about dutasteride and I think you will realize why I am focused on this. At the dosage I was taking dutasteride reduces DHT by nearly 95% with very little variation from person to person. Yet my DHT levels were still 19 ng/dL on the drug! This would predict my pre-Avodart DHT level to be an off the charts 380 ng/dL. Even if you take extremely conservative calculations pushing down over 4 standard deviations I would still be very high on DHT. This explains why Avodart boosted my testosterone by around 300 points. With so much extra testosterone you would expect more conversion to estrogen and a higher SHBG. In addition, it is increasingly being recognized that muscle issues can be a side effect of Avodart. The only part of this analysis that doesn't quite fit is that my estrogen levels are not that high so it requires the hypothesis that estrogen more easily elevates SHBG in me. This is not such a big stretch given how different I am in DHT and T responses.
 
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Just to be clear, when I said malabsorption is in my history I meant as manifested by food intolerances. This was a big issue for me about 10 years ago and it was a major focus of my doctors at the time. Food intolerances have long ago become practically a non-issue for me and my diet is much more flexible now. The problems I am concerned with now were not present during the worst of my gut issues and so I don't think it is likely the gut issue is a big factor in this now.

Let me point out something about dutasteride and I think you will realize why I am focused on this. At the dosage I was taking dutasteride reduces DHT by nearly 95% with very little variation from person to person. Yet my DHT levels were still 19 ng/dL on the drug! This would predict my pre-Avodart DHT level to be an off the charts 380 ng/dL. Even if you take extremely conservative calculations pushing down over 4 standard deviations I would still be very high on DHT. This explains why Avodart boosted my testosterone by around 300 points. With so much extra testosterone you would expect more conversion to estrogen and a higher SHBG. In addition, it is increasingly being recognized that muscle issues can be a side effect of Avodart. The only part of this analysis that doesn't quite fit is that my estrogen levels are not that high so it requires the hypothesis that estrogen more easily elevates SHBG in me. This is not such a big stretch given how different I am in DHT and T responses.
Problem with GI issues is that many of them are asymptomatic. It may not be affecting your gut directly but may be causing other issues down the pipe line. I had a person who had severe anxiety and depression, perfect bowel movement and digestion but had clostridia which was causing him issues with neurological issues. Once it was cleared depression lessened as did the anxiety over the following month or so. Do not let things full you. A person may have absorption issues despite being health is all I am saying. By shutting conversion to DHT T may be preserved resulting in higher total T levels. This same principle happens with AI and TT to some degree.
 

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Problem with GI issues is that many of them are asymptomatic. It may not be affecting your gut directly but may be causing other issues down the pipe line. I had a person who had severe anxiety and depression, perfect bowel movement and digestion but had clostridia which was causing him issues with neurological issues. Once it was cleared depression lessened as did the anxiety over the following month or so. Do not let things full you. A person may have absorption issues despite being health is all I am saying. By shutting conversion to DHT T may be preserved resulting in higher total T levels. This same principle happens with AI and TT to some degree.
Thanks for the response Matrix. I don't doubt there can be non-obvious gut issues. Nor do I believe that my gut is perfect now. The main point is that we were all over my gut for several years and did that to death. Any bug or parasite you can think of we already looked for. By the way, do you have some reference for a gut E2/SHBG connection?
 
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Thanks for the response Matrix. I don't doubt there can be non-obvious gut issues. Nor do I believe that my gut is perfect now. The main point is that we were all over my gut for several years and did that to death. Any bug or parasite you can think of we already looked for. By the way, do you have some reference for a gut E2/SHBG connection?
Estrogens are metabolized in the gut for finally packaging, If there is a malfunction in the system them this estrogens can be released back into the blood stream and cause havoc. SHBG goes up in relationship to estrogens. Remember you body does not know the different between each one.
 

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Estrogens are metabolized in the gut for finally packaging, If there is a malfunction in the system them this estrogens can be released back into the blood stream and cause havoc. SHBG goes up in relationship to estrogens. Remember you body does not know the different between each one.
I presume that you still think that SHBG is a sufficient surrogate for these other estrogens. Anyway, I have done all I could for my gut and need to move on. I've read about your experience with Arimidex and can understand why you don't like AIs. Other people have similar troubles with this one. My feeling is that Aromasin is a better choice. I have spent a long time considering this. I've had a box of Arimidex on hand for months but I will probably never use it. If my problems persist and lacking a better actionable idea I will probably do a brief trial of Aromasin to see if it helps. But first I will get more data. Today I will get another set of tests looking at all these levels now that I have been at a lower dose of dutasteride. I don't expect a huge change but I hope to see what direction it is heading. I will post results later.
 
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Its more so liver metabolism of endogenous toxins which is the key to proper estrogen metabolism.
 

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1. So I've been working on the hormones now. I have a very strong reason to believe that genetically I am more sensitive to estrogen than most men.

2. I think the best bet is that the Avodart I am taking is driving the SHBG high. I have been trying to lower my dose to test this but that seemed to cause problems of its own.

3. Why do you think trying an AI is for sure a bad idea in my case? It seems that some people get good benefit from them. I was just thinking to try one as a diagnostic tool to answer the question as to whether lowering E2 slightly helps or hurts my symptoms. I don't see a better way to answer this question.
1. That is quite possible depending on your SHBG level. Do you know what it is?

2. Avodart and propecia have antiandrogenic properties. The worst thing any man can take.

3. Because you always treat by lab work not guess work. Lowering E2 too much causes it's own set of problems that include ED, painful joints and increased risk of hip fractures. You can't afford to experiment with your hormones or your health.
When SHBG is low. E2 has to be lower also.
 

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Well your Estradiol is less then 30 so your fine a little high try taking some Zinc about 50 mgs / day with 2 mgs or Copper keeping it apart doing Zinc at bedtime and Copper at noon.
Depends on his SHBG Phil. Those of us with low SHBG are finding that our E2 number has to be very close to SHBG number get full function. For example, my SHBG is 11. My E2 as to be about 15 or under to function well. When my E2 gets over 27pg, I'm an emotional wreck.
 

pmgamer18

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Yes this I learned from Dr. John at allthingsmale.com men with low SHBG levels need to keep there E2 lower my SHBG is 20 I keep my E2 at about 15 pg/ml but I have found using Aromasin I can take the higher levels of E2 much better then on Arimidex.
Depends on his SHBG Phil. Those of us with low SHBG are finding that our E2 number has to be very close to SHBG number get full function. For example, my SHBG is 11. My E2 as to be about 15 or under to function well. When my E2 gets over 27pg, I'm an emotional wreck.
 

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1. That is quite possible depending on your SHBG level. Do you know what it is?

2. Avodart and propecia have antiandrogenic properties. The worst thing any man can take.

3. Because you always treat by lab work not guess work. Lowering E2 too much causes it's own set of problems that include ED, painful joints and increased risk of hip fractures. You can't afford to experiment with your hormones or your health.
When SHBG is low. E2 has to be lower also.
1) My SHBG is 72 (9-45 nmol/L). This makes it ambiguous as to whether my E2 at 28 is too high or too low. The high SHBG suggests too high but the E2 doesn't support that.

2) I think men vary on whether Avodart makes sense or not. I'm taking it to prevent BPH. The only downside I noticed that might be drug related is poor healing muscles but it is still not clear the drug causes this. The other hormonal issues I may have were starting before I got on the drug.

3) My lab work is inconclusive so far. We will see if the next set of results due back in a couple weeks or less will shed any more light on this. I wish it were true that we could always count on definitive labs. In the end whenever you take a drug for the first time it is a bit of an experiment.
 

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Free Estrogen Testing: New Labs!!!

I just got back new lab results taken after lowering serum levels of Avodart by 22%. Some results were anomalous.

Testosterone dropped from 929 (250-1100 ng/dL) down to 741. A drop was expected but this was a little more than expected although still reasonable.

Free Testosterone dropped similarly from 110.6 (35-155 pg/mL) to 89.4. This is also reasonable.

SHBG dropped from 72 (9-45 nmol/L) to 57. This is also in line with expectations.

Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive results were just crazy going from 28 (<29 pg/mL) down to 8. This makes no sense at all. I'm double checking to see if they lost a digit. I have heard that Quest sometimes screws up this test and now I really believe it.

I did end up getting the Free Estradiol test and I am glad that I did. The test also reports a total estrogen number which came out to be 30 pg/mL with the same reference range as the ultra sensitive test. The free estrogen number came out to be .69 pg/mL (<= .45 pg/mL). So this test shows my estrogen to be high both for total and free. This now explains the high SHBG so I believe this test was done right.

Finally the DHT showed a drop from 19 (25-75 ng/dL) to <6 ng/dL. This also does not make any sense. Lowering Avodart should increase DHT. The only sensible conclusion is that Quest screwed up the first DHT test because the second one makes much more sense.

My conclusions are as follows. 1) My estrogen really is borderline high and explains many fluctuating symptoms and the high SHBG. 2) The free estradiol test was very useful for distinguishing E2 status in the context of high SHBG. 3) Quest screws up there tests fairly often both ultra sensitive estrogen and DHT.

Now that I know my estrogen really is high the question is what is the best option for lowering it. I restarted taking I3C but it seems that people prefer DIM. I'm not sure if either of these really can lower E2 significantly. Any one have other ideas that can keep me from taking a anti-estrogen drug?
 

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Finally the DHT showed a drop from 19 (25-75 ng/dL) to <6 ng/dL. This also does not make any sense. Lowering Avodart should increase DHT. The only sensible conclusion is that Quest screwed up the first DHT test because the second one makes much more sense.
Not necessarily. Dutasteride and finasteride are now known to cause some type of semi permanent to permanent downregulation of 5 alpha reductase in some men.

Now that I know my estrogen really is high the question is what is the best option for lowering it. I restarted taking I3C but it seems that people prefer DIM. I'm not sure if either of these really can lower E2 significantly.
I don't know of anyone it has worked in the long term for.

Any one have other ideas that can keep me from taking a anti-estrogen drug?
Unfortunately, no.
 

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Not necessarily. Dutasteride and finasteride are now known to cause some type of semi permanent to permanent downregulation of 5 alpha reductase in some men.
I'd be interested in a reference for this if you have one. This condition would prevent DHT from going back up but it shouldn't cause it to go down. Even if this applied to me, however, my previous DHT test result is bizarre. It is unheard of to be at 19 on a full dose of Avodart.

I just ordered my Aromasin today.
 

DragonRider

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I'd be interested in a reference for this if you have one.
This is just one http://propeciahelp.com/overview

If you type Post Finasteride Syndrome in Google, you will find thousands.

This condition would prevent DHT from going back up but it shouldn't cause it to go down. Even if this applied to me, however, my previous DHT test result is bizarre. It is unheard of to be at 19 on a full dose of Avodart.

Not so sure about that assesment. It seems logical to me that if one is producing less 5 alpha reductase, one could semi permanently or permanently lower their ability to produce DHT (since 5ar is needed for that conversion) and lower the amount of DHT being produced, thereby lowering total DHT levels.
Some men are experienceing the same problem from using saw palmetto.
 

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Not so sure about that assesment. It seems logical to me that if one is producing less 5 alpha reductase, one could semi permanently or permanently lower their ability to produce DHT (since 5ar is needed for that conversion) and lower the amount of DHT being produced, thereby lowering total DHT levels.
I'm not following your point here. If I had less 5 alpha reductase then I would have a lower DHT level. A 19 is ridiculously high for someone on a full dose of Avodart. That would imply that I was producing about 20x more 5 alpha reductase than a normal human or equivalent. I doubt you can find such a case. The fact that the second lab result did not reproduce this completely opened my eyes to the idea that the first lab result must be wrong.

By the way, they need a sensitive DHT test as well because they cannot measure the lower DHT levels of someone on Avodart with the test I got.
 

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I'm not following your point here. If I had less 5 alpha reductase then I would have a lower DHT level. A 19 is ridiculously high for someone on a full dose of Avodart. That would imply that I was producing about 20x more 5 alpha reductase than a normal human or equivalent. I doubt you can find such a case. The fact that the second lab result did not reproduce this completely opened my eyes to the idea that the first lab result must be wrong.

By the way, they need a sensitive DHT test as well because they cannot measure the lower DHT levels of someone on Avodart with the test I got.
I'm not following your math. According to the range you posted (below) 19 is well below the low of the range (25). Avodart should take you to the low end of the range, not below it.

Finally the DHT showed a drop from 19 (25-75 ng/dL) to <6 ng/dL. This also does not make any sense. Lowering Avodart should increase DHT. The only sensible conclusion is that Quest screwed up the first DHT test because the second one makes much more sense.
My point was that avodart may have already caused some damage that even when you lower your dose, DHT is not going up because you aren't producing enough 5ar to make that conversion anymore.

If the range you posted is correct, 19 is ridiculously low, under any circumstances
 

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I'm not following your math. According to the range you posted (below) 19 is well below the low of the range (25). Avodart should take you to the low end of the range, not below it.

My point was that avodart may have already caused some damage that even when you lower your dose, DHT is not going up because you aren't producing enough 5ar to make that conversion anymore.

If the range you posted is correct, 19 is ridiculously low, under any circumstances
Here is what you are missing. At a normal dose of Avodart, DHT is lowered by 95% with very little variation from person to person. That means I would have had to start out with a DHT level of ~380 in order to be at 19 on the drug. 380 is way high. Lets say you started out at the top of the normal range for DHT (75). After taking Avodart your DHT will come down to less than 4. This is why my second test reading of <6 makes perfect sense but the 19 makes no sense. The 19 is too high. I was having to bend over backwards to try to explain such a high number.
 

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This is why my second test reading of <6 makes perfect sense but the 19 makes no sense. The 19 is too high. I was having to bend over backwards to try to explain such a high number.
19 is below normal range, which means it could seriously affect sexual function. Under no circumstances does a male want to be below range on DHT.
 

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19 is below normal range, which means it could seriously affect sexual function. Under no circumstances does a male want to be below range on DHT.
Men seem to differ on DHT's importance to sexual function. When I went on Avodart 4 years ago I was doing fairly well in this department but Avodart actually improved it for me. Given the risk for some men I would hesitate to try this drug. Too bad there is no way of testing how people will respond to Avodart. My original reason for going on the drug was to prevent BPH and to a lesser extent prostate cancer so that I did not follow in my father's footsteps. So there are legitimate reasons for lowering DHT below range. In my case, I was worried that Avodart was causing my muscle issues. At the moment the evidence suggests that high estrogen is the more likely culprit. Soon I should find out for sure.
 

DragonRider

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Men seem to differ on DHT's importance to sexual function.
In my case, I was worried that Avodart was causing my muscle issues. At the moment the evidence suggests that high estrogen is the more likely culprit. Soon I should find out for sure.
I'm very interested in what you find out. As I understand it, DHT plays an important role in making the connection from the CNS to muscles and as such is a determining factor in how much strength one has or is able to develop.


http://www.anabolic-bible.org/ShowPage.aspx?callpage=DHT
Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) plays an important role in the organization and functioning of the central nervous system. Many neural cells contain active androgen receptors, and it is thought that there may even be a specific importance of dihydrotestosterone in this area of the body. Studies have shown DHT to have a profoundly greater impact in these cells compared to testosterone. Animal models demonstrated that both testosterone and DHT would result in increased androgen receptor proliferation in neural cells three and seven hours after being administered, however only DHT was able to sustain this increase at the twenty-one hour mark.
The strong interaction between the central nervous system and skeletal muscles, collectively referred to as the neuromuscular system, is of key importance to the athlete. There appears little doubt that the ability of the body to adapt to training and its ability to activate nerve endings in muscle tissue are reliant on the interactions of the neuromuscular system. Inhibiting the formation of DHT during a testosterone cycle may therefore inadvertently interfere with strength and muscle mass gains. That’s why most people complain on the sudden drop in the steroid potency when a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor finasteride to a testosterone cycle.



http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/dht.htm
Anti – Estrogen effects of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar learn this the hard way – by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification – bitch tits!

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.
 

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I'm very interested in what you find out. As I understand it, DHT plays an important role in making the connection from the CNS to muscles and as such is a determining factor in how much strength one has or is able to develop.
I've also read somewhere that DHT may play a role in muscle metabolism. I don't believe any of this is well established in humans. More research will be required to better understand the role of DHT.

I'll be sure to post what I find out.
 
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I've also read somewhere that DHT may play a role in muscle metabolism. I don't believe any of this is well established in humans. More research will be required to better understand the role of DHT.

I'll be sure to post what I find out.
Too much DHT makes you fat, hairless, insulin resistant, and have anxiety because it modulates neurotranmistter signaling
Not enough DHT make you limpy, lack muscle hardness, and can have lack of motiviation, may be modulate neurotransmitters.
 

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My experience with arimidex and aromasin

I decided to go for a trial of AIs to see what effect they would have. While I was waiting for my aromasin to arrive I decided to give arimidex a very short try. I tried 1/4 tab before bed. I felt sides very soon - palpitations. Next day I felt drugged and dizzy and sex was crappy. I stopped it right there. Sides wore off after a couple days.

Then I started aromasin at just .5mg (yes just 1/50th of a tab) for 2 days. Sides were OK so I increased to 7mg for one day. Sex was good. I backed off to 3mg the next day. Still good but running was slower and injury was not responding. My mojo started to ramp up despite cutting the dose back again to only 1.5mg. Mojo still too high (needed sex every day) so cut back to 1mg for a couple days. Sex peaked the next day and I continued to cut back to only .5mg again. At this point my mojo moderated so I slightly increased to .75mg for a couple days. Then my mojo got lower so I increased to 3mg for 2 days. I strained my shoulders doing a head to handstand press. My sense is that this was making me weaker and my running was still slower. Mojo boosted up again so I backed aromasin down to 1.5mg for a couple days. Mojo got low again so I went back to 3mg for 3 days and then 4.5 mg. I ran a 5K race in 21:16 which is slow for me. After that got constipated and sex was bad and lots of fatigue. At this point I stopped aromasin. A few days later things got better and my running got faster again.

My conclusions are:
1) Aromasin did not seem to help with my muscle injuries. In fact it clearly made my running slower and may have made me weaker and contributed to my shoulder injury.
2) The biggest effect of aromasin was on my mojo which went really high for a while but was not sustainable. I do not believe that this was caused by going too low on E2 because my dosages were so small. Instead I believe that feedback loops opposed the changes making me worse than before. Perhaps SHBG dropped and made for more free E2 than before or receptors for E2 got up-regulated. Aromasin affects so many hormones that it is hard to say what was going on.

The bottom line is that aromasin looks like it will not be the answer for me. I can see what people mean about having regulation issues with these AIs but I think the problem is worse that just managing E2 levels. Even though the sides of aromasin were much better than arimidex I never felt that good on the drug. It did not help fatigue and hurt strength.

So I am back to searching for a solution to my muscle issues and other hormonal imbalances. The only thing that seems to help the muscles is MGF but it is not a cure. I think that the matrix is right that gut issues are a big part of this. Unfortunately, I don't know how to do any better than I already have done.
 
The Matrix

The Matrix

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I decided to go for a trial of AIs to see what effect they would have. While I was waiting for my aromasin to arrive I decided to give arimidex a very short try. I tried 1/4 tab before bed. I felt sides very soon - palpitations. Next day I felt drugged and dizzy and sex was crappy. I stopped it right there. Sides wore off after a couple days.

Then I started aromasin at just .5mg (yes just 1/50th of a tab) for 2 days. Sides were OK so I increased to 7mg for one day. Sex was good. I backed off to 3mg the next day. Still good but running was slower and injury was not responding. My mojo started to ramp up despite cutting the dose back again to only 1.5mg. Mojo still too high (needed sex every day) so cut back to 1mg for a couple days. Sex peaked the next day and I continued to cut back to only .5mg again. At this point my mojo moderated so I slightly increased to .75mg for a couple days. Then my mojo got lower so I increased to 3mg for 2 days. I strained my shoulders doing a head to handstand press. My sense is that this was making me weaker and my running was still slower. Mojo boosted up again so I backed aromasin down to 1.5mg for a couple days. Mojo got low again so I went back to 3mg for 3 days and then 4.5 mg. I ran a 5K race in 21:16 which is slow for me. After that got constipated and sex was bad and lots of fatigue. At this point I stopped aromasin. A few days later things got better and my running got faster again.

My conclusions are:
1) Aromasin did not seem to help with my muscle injuries. In fact it clearly made my running slower and may have made me weaker and contributed to my shoulder injury.
2) The biggest effect of aromasin was on my mojo which went really high for a while but was not sustainable. I do not believe that this was caused by going too low on E2 because my dosages were so small. Instead I believe that feedback loops opposed the changes making me worse than before. Perhaps SHBG dropped and made for more free E2 than before or receptors for E2 got up-regulated. Aromasin affects so many hormones that it is hard to say what was going on.

The bottom line is that aromasin looks like it will not be the answer for me. I can see what people mean about having regulation issues with these AIs but I think the problem is worse that just managing E2 levels. Even though the sides of aromasin were much better than arimidex I never felt that good on the drug. It did not help fatigue and hurt strength.

So I am back to searching for a solution to my muscle issues and other hormonal imbalances. The only thing that seems to help the muscles is MGF but it is not a cure. I think that the matrix is right that gut issues are a big part of this. Unfortunately, I don't know how to do any better than I already have done.
Dealing with Gi tract is challenging and there are no cookie cutter methods like many people think. The best approach is an individualized approach which every case is different and having a detailed history is crucial as well as the proper testing which most Dr's do not look out their comfort zone. As I have been saying all along, balancing the GI tract will help the liver which will help estrodial levels. Its basic science and common sense the most power tools over looked. I get slammed on boards all the time by people. I could care less. I encourage people get proper help. Many usually go see if the grass is greener on the other side usually end up coming back messed up worse then they left. I must know something other medical professionals are inquiring about what it is that I do. Again people are constantly blaming dr's. It is not their fought at all but the where they are learning it. When I finally do get cases from Dr's, there is this huge chip on the shoulder before you even open your mouth. You have 2 strikes against you before you even begin..
 

hitest

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Dealing with Gi tract is challenging and there are no cookie cutter methods like many people think. The best approach is an individualized approach which every case is different and having a detailed history is crucial as well as the proper testing which most Dr's do not look out their comfort zone. As I have been saying all along, balancing the GI tract will help the liver which will help estrodial levels. Its basic science and common sense the most power tools over looked. I get slammed on boards all the time by people. I could care less. I encourage people get proper help. Many usually go see if the grass is greener on the other side usually end up coming back messed up worse then they left. I must know something other medical professionals are inquiring about what it is that I do. Again people are constantly blaming dr's. It is not their fought at all but the where they are learning it. When I finally do get cases from Dr's, there is this huge chip on the shoulder before you even open your mouth. You have 2 strikes against you before you even begin..
I've been working on my gut issues for more than 20 years. While I have been able to manage it and improve some things fundamentally it is far from normal. It seems that getting older is making things worse too. I suspect that my problems are related to an acquired immune deficit that is very rare and has no treatment. So unless I can make a discovery myself it seems that I am stuck.
 
The Matrix

The Matrix

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I've been working on my gut issues for more than 20 years. While I have been able to manage it and improve some things fundamentally it is far from normal. It seems that getting older is making things worse too. I suspect that my problems are related to an acquired immune deficit that is very rare and has no treatment. So unless I can make a discovery myself it seems that I am stuck.
Never say never..
 

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