Estradiol @ 109 whil on trt, HELP !!!!

[fryzway]

I am 26 yrs old and on TRT for secondary hypogonadism induced by steroid use. I am on Test Cyp injections 100mg/wk. I have been on this protocol for 8wks now. I just got my first labs back, they were taken 1wk after my injection or the morning of my next injection however you want to look at it. My Total T was 758 up from 191 @ start of TRT Ref 270-850. Morning Cortisol was 8.5 Ref 4-22 and Estradiol was 109 Ref 0-52. I am probably 20 % BF and not using an AI. I do however have Formastanozol here @ home. I am going to start rubbing on the max dose of 20 pumps per day in 2 divided doses and re-check blood work in 3 months. I have been having terrible Fatigue, Gained 10lbs in the last 8wks all seems to be in my belly, BAD ANXIETY and Heat intolerance and Profuse sweating while doing the most minute activity, Short of breath. My CBC and Comp Metabolic's are all normal. My ?'s are. 1. Could I be feeling this way bc of Estrogen being so high ? 2. Is this why I'm not feeling the benefits of Test being so high ? 3. Is my Cortisol having some effect on this being at the low end of normal and how would I naturally bring it higher ? 4. Is formastanozol strong enough it has 200mg forma if I use the max dose every day. Any help is greatly appreciated bro's.

 

[The Matrix]

20% creame is getting trapped into skin causing huge issues with aromataze. Adding an AI in this instance may counter productive when problem can be solved with less medicine.

 

[DragonRider]

I am on Test Cyp injections 100mg/wk. I have been on this protocol for 8wks now.

20% creame is getting trapped into skin causing huge issues with aromataze. I would suggest moving to shots 50 mgs 2 time weekly to resolve the issue. Adding an AI in this instance is counter productive when problem can be solved with less medicine.

TRT is a permanent proposition, as such you don't want to use anything that has to be cycled to prevent estrogen. From what I've read about Formastanozol, it isn't recommended for over 10 week periods.
Yes, the problems you have listed could definately be caused by estrogen levels that high.

 

[fryzway]

I can move to shots twice a wk but I don't think that will solve the issue. I also know from researching, that alot of guys on TRT use Arimidex or Letro or Aromasin indefinitely @ low doses. I would like to know what my test is say 48hr after injection. It is prob well over 1,200 or so. Was the suggestion to use 25mg each shot on the 2 shot per week ? Anyone have any input on the Cortisol levels. As far as the cream you mentioned I'm not on any cream. I do rub the Formastanozolol on tho if that's what you were referring to but I doubt that is causing aromatase issues. I also think the estrogen reduction capability of the Forma is anywhere from 60-80% but I could be mistaken. If that's the case it would put me about mid range while increasing IGF-1 levels as well as lowering SHBG and probably raising total T which I don't know would be safe over the long run with such an already high # a wk out from only a 100mg injection. Anyone ???

 

[ambulldog]

i think matrix gave you some solid advice. you gotta balance everything out and it takes time. i for the most part dont use an ai while on trt dose. for a time i did use aromasin every 4th day but since i have leaned myself out quite a bit i dont need it. although if you carry a good bit of fat esp around the middle an ai may be necessary along with trt doses. bottom line is i know some people that use ai with trt all the time and some that never use

 

[DragonRider]

I can move to shots twice a wk but I don't think that will solve the issue. I also know from researching, that alot of guys on TRT use Arimidex or Letro or Aromasin indefinitely @ low doses. I would like to know what my test is say 48hr after injection. It is prob well over 1,200 or so. Was the suggestion to use 25mg each shot on the 2 shot per week ?

If it's true that your levels are over 1200ng/dL then your TRT dose is too high and you need to lower it in addition to splitting your injections to twice a week.
The two shots divided would be 50mg in each shot not 25, BUT if your levels are over 1000ng/dl, you should probably be injecting 40mg per injection.
Try that for 4 weeks and retest your estrogen then let us know where you are.

You are a prime example of why more is not better when it comes to TRT. Just look at your estrogen levels.

 

[fryzway]

Nice to hear from you again Ambulldog. I know we pm'd alot over at Primordial's site. I can try the 50mg 2x wk along with an AI. I was going to try Formastane transdermal from CEL bc the Formastanozol has horse chestnut in it and it makes me dizzy as hell when I use it. What would be a good dose for the Trans Forma ? I could get Aromasin and use it say 12.5mg 2-3 days a wk. Any thoughts about that ? I am going to run the AI for atlest the 3 months until my next bloodwork to see where it puts me E2 and my TT and also to try to recomp a bit and lose some of the belly fat bc I won't lose it if E2 is constantly high. Plus, I haven't even had the energy to go to the gym @ all for like the past 4-5 wks and I know y now, bc my estro is double the top end of normal. If I can bring it down to mid range and keep my TT around 1,000 I should be able to recomp pretty fast wouldn't you agree ?

 

[trendyhipster]

For what it's worth, my Estradiol went from 40 to over 110 when moving from daily cream to shots twice per week. My T finally went up too, up to 650 or so from under 250. Got on an tiny AI dose (taken same day as each injection) and take zinc daily and Estradiol was in the 20s less than two weeks later.

 

[fryzway]

That's sweet your estradiol dropped to such a good number and so fast to. What AI was u taking and what dose. I will try to go Mon and Thurs for injections and use 12.5mg Aromasin on those days also and I will pick up some ZMA next time I'm out by GNC. Thanks for that advice bro. I'll prob won't re-check E2 until my next blood work which is in 3 months. I will just go by feel until then but **** anything under what I am with my E2 now will have to make me feel so much better. If I can't get ahold of the Aromasin I'll have to use the topical Forma from CEL. Would say 100mg/day be enough to start or maybe start even lower bc I know from reviews I've come across, Forma topical is up there with the prescription AI's as far as strength of suppression, am I wrong ?

 

[fryzway]

I was wondering if I could add say, 300mg/day of 6-oxo on top of the 100mg/day of Transdermal Formestane or if this would be overkill ? I couldn't get ahold of the Aromasin right now so I have to go OTC. Should I just start on 100mg/day Trans Forma and go by feel as to add the 6-oxo or not ? My next blood test aren't for another 3 months. I could do a saliva hormone test in say 6wks or so but what would I notice if my E2 were to drop to low ? Also, with these two supps combined would it even be possible to lower E2 too much seeing how it's @ 109 ?

 

[DragonRider]

but what would I notice if my E2 were to drop to low ? Also, with these two supps combined would it even be possible to lower E2 too much seeing how it's @ 109 ?

Painful joints and muscles. Inability to climax or get an erection.

Yes.

 

[fryzway]

Good looking out drangonrider. I will just use the Trans Forma. I may start @ 50mg/day and see how I feel after a wk and then go up if there's no change. I did make it to the gym last night for the 1st time in a long time and I was maxing out machines and doing like 15-20reps.Like our chest press machine, it goes up to 315lbs and I banged out 20 reps. It was baffling ! I worked out with weights, 15 reps, 30-60sec breaks and did total body then did 20 min elliptical for a mile and a half and then finished with a few sets of shrugs. I'm not to sore today but I'm easing back into it. I just think it's amazing the strength I had seeing how I haven't lifted in MONTHS !

 

[fryzway]

I just got my new test results back from Quest and the E2 was 79 ref (13-54). My Prolactin was also high @ 27.8 ref (3.7-17.9). I asked my Endo about this and she said we'll keep an eye on it and re-check your blood work in 3 months and see where it is. I'm so ****ING FRUSTRATED. My TSH also came back on the high side of "NORMAL" and I know elevated Prolactin can be due to Hypothyroid. I'm not clinical but I'm Sub-Clinical, according to AACE, any TSH above 3.0 should be treated as hypothyroid and I'm @ a 3.48 !!! Is there any supp out there that can reduce prolactin ? My Free T4 is .99 ref (.78-2.19) and my Free T3 is 5.2 Ref (2.77-5.27).

 

[Whacked]

Look into PES' ERASE

I am on TRT and take one cap a day to mitigate any "excess" estrodiol. Most take 2-3 caps/day but unlike many others here, I do not think estrogen is the devil + obtaining normal ranges are functionally key (for me).

 

[DragonRider]

Look into PES' ERASE

I am on TRT and take one cap a day to mitigate any "excess" estrodiol. Most take 2-3 caps/day but unlike many others here, I do not think estrogen is the devil + obtaining normal ranges are functionally key (for me).

Erase Directions:
As a dietary supplement, take one (1) capsule, 1-3 times daily. DUE TO EXTREME POTENCY, DO NOT USE FOR LONGER THAN 8 WEEKS, FOLLOWED BY A SUBSEQUENT 4 WEEK BREAK. DO NOT EXCEED 4 CAPSULES IN ANY 24 HOUR PERIOD.

Unfortuneately HRT is a permanent proposition and so we need something that can be used permanently and not cycled for estrogen control.
I agree with your theory of keeping estrogen in the ideal range.
Many of us on HRT have to use some type of estrogen control because we can't get erections without it. Too high or too low can cause the same problem.

 

[The Matrix]

your ft3 is high because of adrenal issues which e2 can bind up CBG making cortisol not usable to the body. Get e2 down to 20-30 then recheck your thyroid.
Erase is not a long term product.
Aromasin at 12.5 mgs every 3 day will work the best plus helps to keep your igf-1 and lipids in check unlike adex.

Check adrenal saliva testing and see what your current symptoms to see if they match.
might want to nutra eval done to check to see if there is not some hidden issue that may be behind all this.

 

[jonko]

I remember reading somewhere that alcoholics and people with liver disease will have elevated estradol levels from a damaged liver (cirrhosis) and that's a reason why gynocomastia is a sign of liver disease, as well as spider angioma or spider nevi. All resulting from high estrogen as the liver looses it's ability to break down estrogens.
As I read these HRT boards I see so many men on TRT with elevated estrogens.
Does the spider veins, man boobs etc that is so common with liver disease also manifest from elevated estrogens in TRT?

 

[Whacked]

I am just curious as to why/how Aromasin is any healthier or why it can be used year round but Erase cannot??

Thanks

Erase is not a long term product.
Aromasin at 12.5 mgs every 3 day will work the best plus helps to keep your igf-1 and lipids in check unlike adex. .

 

[nattydisaster]

20% creame is getting trapped into skin causing huge issues with aromataze. I would suggest moving to shots 50 mgs 2 time weekly to resolve the issue. Adding an AI in this instance is counter productive when problem can be solved with less medicine.

Agreed...when I moved my injections to Monday/Thursday instead of once per week it lowered my estrogen a good deal...and also made my libido constant throughout the week

 

[fryzway]

Wow, Thanks for all the input ya'll. I also wonder why you can use Aromasin a few times a wk but not an OTC AI. Can anyone elaborate on that ? I just bought some 400 IU Vit E tablets to help with the Prolactin and I been using the TD Forma @ 100mg/day. Before I used it my Estro came down on it's own from 109 to 79 and I didn't change anything. That completely puzzled me. I am getting a 24hr Cortisol Saliva test done along with blood draws fro DHT, CBC w/Diff, LH IGF-1, PSA and Total and Free Test bc the Bio-Identical Hormone Dr. wants that along with all the other blood work I already sent him. I'm kinda bummed about going to someone who doesn't take insurance but these incompetent Endo's and Dr's are going to kill me and haven't done **** but make me worse, so at this point I would pay a million bucks to feel just normal again. I hear alot of good things about Bio-Identicals. I'll have to stop my Test Cyp and he's also going to get me a script to bring all hormones back to optimal range, like the Prolactin and Estrogen that the other "Specialist" have seemed to ignore.

 

[DragonRider]

I remember reading somewhere that alcoholics and people with liver disease will have elevated estradol levels from a damaged liver (cirrhosis) and that's a reason why gynocomastia is a sign of liver disease,

Can be a sign of liver disease, but doesn't have to be.

Does the spider veins, man boobs etc that is so common with liver disease also manifest from elevated estrogens in TRT?

Of course, but it is from testosterone aromatizing into estrogen, which is why many males on HRT have to take an Aromatase Inhibitor. There is no liver damage, just too much estrogen for a healthy liver to metabolize.

 

[jonko]

the reason I ask is, my E2 has been running a little high. Im supposed to start A-dex in a few days after the next blood test. I have also been seeing "spider nevi" and I wonder if the spider nevi is from the estrogen. I never hear it mentioned much on these threads as a side effect of high E2

 

[The Matrix]

Horse.chestnut works.good.on vericose veins.E2.can.play.major.havoc, from.seeing pictures.you.need.to.work.on.lifestyle and.nutrition.majority. Reduce as.much.stress.as.possible and.get.information.from.knowledgeable sources. I have 5 yearsexperience handling just about.anything out there. I have pretty much seen it all.lol What.You.read.online take.with a grain of salt.other wise.you.will.end.up.giving your self.cancer or.some.other stress related issue

 

[jonko]

Yes STRESS is a big problem for me. I need to relax! I know what site your referring to by the pictures and your right, I have lost 25 pounds thus far. I have attached a photo of the vein in the sides of my ribs, I realize this is probably normal. It only seems to become more visible after lying down in the evening, if I stand up. I assume its a blood pressure thing. In the morning its not even there at all. The other day I showed my doctor and he couldn't even see it. It was 9:30 in the morning. I just took this picture tonight where its a little more pronounced. Of course when you google distended abdominal veins it says liver disease. I need to stay off Google lol

 

[The Matrix]

Possible NASH which is fatty liver which can be handled by proper diet, lifestyles, hormonal and thyroid modulation with specific individualized supplementation.

Yes STRESS is a big problem for me. I need to relax! I know what site your referring to by the pictures and your right, I have lost 25 pounds thus far. I have attached a photo of the vein in the sides of my ribs, I realize this is probably normal. It only seems to become more visible after lying down in the evening, if I stand up. I assume its a blood pressure thing. In the morning its not even there at all. The other day I showed my doctor and he couldn't even see it. It was 9:30 in the morning. I just took this picture tonight where its a little more pronounced. Of course when you google distended abdominal veins it says liver disease. I need to stay off Google lolView attachment 51661