Do you sacrifice all potential muscle gains from a workout if sleep is limited?

SpicedCider

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Sometimes, due to my work/school schedule and from general anxiety issues, I'll only get maybe 2-3 hours of sleep on certain nights if I'm lucky, and sometimes these borderline "no sleep" stretches will last for two days (which was the case for me this past Friday and Saturday nights). I maybe slept for 3 hours on Friday night and no more than 2 hours on Saturday night. My most recent gym workout was Friday afternoon.

My question is, when someone isn't able to get more than a few hours of sleep over the course of 1-2 days following a workout, are they basically sacrificing all the potential muscle/strength gains they could've yielded from the workout? Or does the person's body play "catch-up" as soon as they're able to regularly get a full night's sleep again?

Thanks
 

bosskardo

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Well, you definatelly won't loose all gains but it sure will hurt.
 
dillface02241

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I always get from 3-5 hours per night. Not because I have other stuff going on, but because that's just how my body is. I don't think I sacrificed any muscle cause of it. At 45, I'm pretty ripped and fit in my high school jeans
 
MySTeek

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Sometimes, due to my work/school schedule and from general anxiety issues, I'll only get maybe 2-3 hours of sleep on certain nights if I'm lucky, and sometimes these borderline "no sleep" stretches will last for two days (which was the case for me this past Friday and Saturday nights). I maybe slept for 3 hours on Friday night and no more than 2 hours on Saturday night. My most recent gym workout was Friday afternoon.

My question is, when someone isn't able to get more than a few hours of sleep over the course of 1-2 days following a workout, are they basically sacrificing all the potential muscle/strength gains they could've yielded from the workout? Or does the person's body play "catch-up" as soon as they're able to regularly get a full night's sleep again?

Thanks
Research implies we never catch up on lost sleep. Say you pull an all-nighter and lose 8 hours of sleep. For a moment, forget about the physiological damage at play and focus on this "sleep debt' you have accrued. In the following nights, unless you sleep 16 hours, you will not make up for that lost time. Even if you stretch it across several days, you would need to sleep 10+ hours a night and consistently sleep 7 hrs a night thereafter to prevent yourself from accruing more sleep debt. Can't happen without extreme intervention.

From the moment your eyes open for the day, adenosine levels start to rise. This is your brains signal that it's time to go to sleep. It's at around your bed time that it peaks, telling you, "no more. Time for sleep". When you go to sleep, adenosine levels decline with a baseline as it's goal. Depriving yourself of the proper amount of sleep-time (7 hrs on average), does not allow those levels to return to baseline. You are putting yourself in a viscous cycle of sleep-debt that you cannot pay off.

It is when you are in your non-REM and REM states that you make these neural connections that create memories. How is your short term memory? Do you find it difficult to remember simple things? If so, it is because you haven't yet made those neural connections, storing them in your long term memory. Your short-term cache of memories are over written if those neural connections are not made. You can only store so much in your cache of memories before something has to give. These connections can sometimes days or weeks. It's the repetition of sleep that allow your brain to make these neural connections, creating a more vivid memory.

Motor function falls within these windows as well. Yes, you are not allowing yourself on many levels to fully recover - brain, body, and mind. Find a way to improve your sleep. We know so much about the role sleep plays in our lives now. It is THE BEST WORKOUT you can do for yourself.
 
SomewhatDamag

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Well, considering your body's GH is released during sleep at different points, the poorer your quality of sleep, the less that you can milk from your workouts. Catching up on sleep isn't a real thing, it simply gets diluted and averages out. You could think of it like a "cheat day" where having one piece of cheesecake isn't going to derail your long-term efforts, even if it does affect you slightly at the time.
 
Outofbody

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Anyone reading this have any experience with DSIP (delta sleep inducing peptide)?
 
MySTeek

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Anyone reading this have any experience with DSIP (delta sleep inducing peptide)?
Looks like a good way to paralyze chronic sleep walkers.
 
Outofbody

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Looks like a good way to paralyze chronic sleep walkers.
Definitely. I'm looking at it to treat chronic insomnia. It also has the ability to regulate endocrine functions, which is very interesting:

Roles in endocrine regulation

- Decreases basal corticotropin level and blocks its release.[8]
- Stimulates release of luteinizing hormone (LH).[15]
- Stimulates release of somatoliberin and somatotrophin secretion and inhibits somatostatin secretion.[16]
 
MySTeek

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Definitely. I'm looking at it to treat chronic insomnia. It also has the ability to regulate endocrine functions, which is very interesting:

Roles in endocrine regulation

- Decreases basal corticotropin level and blocks its release.[8]
- Stimulates release of luteinizing hormone (LH).[15]
- Stimulates release of somatoliberin and somatotrophin secretion and inhibits somatostatin secretion.[16]
Hope you run a log. Is it OTC or prescribed?
 
Outofbody

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Hope you run a log. Is it OTC or prescribed?
Neither. It's a research peptide to be taken via injection. I'm a bit nervous to try it though, I want to wake up lol. I'm sure it's safe though.

edit: it's available as a research peptide but it actually does look like it's used clinically as well
 
Outofbody

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_sleep-inducing_peptide

It actually looks like something that can benefit me in multiple ways. Just convinced myself to try it. Once I order some in, I'll start up a log on here and tag you.

Safety and possible side-effects of long-term DSIP use haven't been established in clinical research studies.
For this reason above, I will limit it to a 2-3 month trial to help treat on-cycle insomnia.
 
mikeymike85

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You should really try a cortisol controller such as Reduce XT - it helps with anxiety and lowers cortisol. I sleep somewhat better when I take this. Phenibut also works wonders, I have a super high benzo tolerance and this stuff knocks me down.
 
MySTeek

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You should really try a cortisol controller such as Reduce XT - it helps with anxiety and lowers cortisol. I sleep somewhat better when I take this. Phenibut also works wonders, I have a super high benzo tolerance and this stuff knocks me down.
Cortisol Control is good and all but doesn't address the underlying issue. OP needs to find a way to sleep more.
 
mikeymike85

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Cortisol Control is good and all but doesn't address the underlying issue. OP needs to find a way to sleep more.
Wtf? Dude. He said he can't sleep from anxiety. Cortisol = anxiety.
 

mawalega

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I've gotten between 4 and 7 hours for the last 5 years and I'm still making progress. No it's not ideal but it's like asking "if i don't work out and sleep 8 hours will I be better off than working out and getting less sleep?"
 
Nickespo89

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My system of sleep is simple. Weed and phenibut (never more than 500-1000mg) I only take the phenibut 2 days a week. And I alternate the phenibut with doxylamine succincate. Occasionally taking Benedryl in order to avoid adaptation to the meds. While on tren it lets me sleep like a baby. Been doing this for 8 weeks and it works great. I have had insomnia all my life and am sleeping better now than I ever have.
 
Outofbody

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I'm on NPP and right now, the combination of 2g of phenibut, smoking indica (MJ), 5-HTP, 1g Gaba, 500mg l-theanine only lets me sleep 3 hours. I'm getting far worse insomnia than while on tren. It's beyond bizarre.
 
mikeymike85

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I'm on NPP and right now, the combination of 2g of phenibut, smoking indica (MJ), 5-HTP, 1g Gaba, 500mg l-theanine only lets me sleep 3 hours. I'm getting far worse insomnia than while on tren. It's beyond bizarre.
Bro- that is a lot, I'm surprised you aren't knocked out. I can take a Xan bar and still be up, and the mix of what you are using above would allow me to sleep. 2G of Phenibut IMO is a lot, and it gets me a good sleep. You might need medical attention IMO>
 
MySTeek

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I'm on NPP and right now, the combination of 2g of phenibut, smoking indica (MJ), 5-HTP, 1g Gaba, 500mg l-theanine only lets me sleep 3 hours. I'm getting far worse insomnia than while on tren. It's beyond bizarre.
Hope you get that checked out professionally, man. That sounds rough.
 
Outofbody

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I definitely will if DSIP doesn't help me out over the next 5-7 weeks of my cycle. What's impressing me though is that I'm still able to dream on that sleep stack.
 
MySTeek

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I definitely will if DSIP doesn't help me out over the next 5-7 weeks of my cycle. What's impressing me though is that I'm still able to dream on that sleep stack.
The fact that you are able to form a comprehensible sentence with that much lack of sleep is a miracle! I wonder if the sleep stack is cutting much into your NREM sleep, giving your REM cycle bigger windows.
 
Outofbody

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The fact that you are able to form a comprehensible sentence with that much lack of sleep is a miracle! I wonder if the sleep stack is cutting much into your NREM sleep, giving your REM cycle bigger windows.
Not sure, but I know that smoking MJ typically blunts any dreaming at all. Definitely not having any lucid dreams these days though.
 
MySTeek

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Not sure, but I know that smoking MJ typically blunts any dreaming at all. Definitely not having any lucid dreams these days though.
Are you actively trying to become lucid?
 
Outofbody

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Are you actively trying to become lucid?
No, I usually don't have to try tbh. I've been having lucid dreams since I was a pre-teen (and out of body experiences while dreaming - floating around my room, out the window, around my neighborhood and to other places, etc).
 
Outofbody

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Tonight I'm going to try just a 2mg boom dose of ipamorelin with my usual indica, and will see what happens.
 
MySTeek

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No, I usually don't have to try tbh. I've been having lucid dreams since I was a pre-teen (and out of body experiences while dreaming - floating around my room, out the window, around my neighborhood and to other places, etc).
You a Robert Monroe fan? Read his stuff in my teens after I had, what I believe to be, an OOBE. As for lucid dreaming, I'm curious what would happen to your sleep, if anything, if you are started to actively train for lucidity.
 
Outofbody

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You a Robert Monroe fan? Read his stuff in my teens after I had, what I believe to be, an OOBE. As for lucid dreaming, I'm curious what would happen to your sleep, if anything, if you are started to actively train for lucidity.
Not sure who he is but I'll look him up. I've read that you can enduce lucid dreaming with galantamine - by setting your alarm around 2am and taking a dose then going back to sleep, so I stocked up on a bunch. Haven't tried it yet. I also read that as long as I'm partaking in MJ, I can kiss my lucid dreaming goodbye. That's why I haven't tried it yet lol
 
mikeymike85

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If you're taking 2G Phenibut ED, you are going to face a world of withdrawal when you get off.. anxiety up the wazuuu
 
Outofbody

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If you're taking 2G Phenibut ED, you are going to face a world of withdrawal when you get off.. anxiety up the wazuuu
Nah that was just last night as a test. I only sporadically take phenibut. Never nightly. Usually when I have a big, important day ahead.
 
MySTeek

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Not sure who he is but I'll look him up. I've read that you can enduce lucid dreaming with galantamine - by setting your alarm around 2am and taking a dose then going back to sleep, so I stocked up on a bunch. Haven't tried it yet. I also read that as long as I'm partaking in MJ, I can kiss my lucid dreaming goodbye. That's why I haven't tried it yet lol
Yeah MJ and alcohol significantly reduce your REM window. Any reason why you are self medicating with so much instead of seeing a neurologist? Not judging. Just sounds like a lot to invest in when you could receive the right treatment with a diagnosis for your insomnia.
 
Outofbody

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Yeah MJ and alcohol significantly reduce your REM window. Any reason why you are self medicating with so much instead of seeing a neurologist? Not judging. Just sounds like a lot to invest in when you could receive the right treatment with a diagnosis for your insomnia.
Oh because I know the culprit (AAS). I don't normally have issues with insomnia. This will go away post cycle. But that's in 7 weeks.
 
Outofbody

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I do have RLS though and involuntary movement / jerking during sleep (heavily associated with RLS from what I've read), which I do plan on getting checked out by a neurologist. Usually, smoking herb (indica) works fine for me for this though, but I should get that checked out. AFAIK, they can only prescribe caber for this pretty much unknown sleep disorder.
 
jameschoi

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If you sleep 6 hours and workout, can making up the two hours later work or do you need 8 straight hours?
 
Outofbody

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I actually saw an article in the past which spoke about how humans never used to sleep 8 hours straight. In the past, we typically went to sleep early evening, after dusk, then got up at some point during the night - did some light activities while it was quiet, then went back to bed again for another period before morning. It's probably more important how many total sleep cycles you've had, where it comes to rejuvenation.
 
MySTeek

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If you sleep 6 hours and workout, can making up the two hours later work or do you need 8 straight hours?
There is data that shows getting under 7 hours of sleep at a time potentiates pro-cancer genes and turns off cancer-fighting genes.

Source: Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker

I am by no means an expert but I read it lol. It wasn't until the early 90s that people started purposely sleeping less. That seems to coincide with the rising tide of obesity and disease.

xg9xixn-ikypn7kingf8fq.png


I actually saw an article in the past which spoke about how humans never used to sleep 8 hours straight. In the past, we typically went to sleep early evening, after dusk, then got up at some point during the night - did some light activities while it was quiet, then went back to bed again for another period before morning. It's probably more important how many total sleep cycles you've had, where it comes to rejuvenation.
I'd contend switching from intermittent sleep to extended may have led to the evolution of the human brain. That last sleep cycle around the 6-7 hour mark can be the most valuable. It can make or break waking performance.
 
Outofbody

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There is data that shows getting under 7 hours of sleep at a time potentiates pro-cancer genes and turns off cancer-fighting genes.

Source: Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker

I am by no means an expert but I read it lol. It wasn't until the early 90s that people started purposely sleeping less. That seems to coincide with the rising tide of obesity and disease.

View attachment 166768



I'd contend switching from intermittent sleep to extended may have led to the evolution of the human brain. That last sleep cycle around the 6-7 hour mark can be the most valuable. It can make or break waking performance.
This makes me really want to work on my sleep hygiene.
 
Nickespo89

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I actually saw an article in the past which spoke about how humans never used to sleep 8 hours straight. In the past, we typically went to sleep early evening, after dusk, then got up at some point during the night - did some light activities while it was quiet, then went back to bed again for another period before morning. It's probably more important how many total sleep cycles you've had, where it comes to rejuvenation.
Bro, I used doxylamine succinate. It’s a histamine agonist that puts me to sleep. NPP insomnia makes tren insomnia look like child’s play. Doxylamine with some Jane and phenibut thrown in when needed.
 
Outofbody

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Bro, I used doxylamine succinate. It’s a histamine agonist that puts me to sleep. NPP insomnia makes tren insomnia look like child’s play. Doxylamine with some Jane and phenibut thrown in when needed.
I've tried all that, didn't work (even with 2 grams of phenibut in the mix with mary and more). Keep waking up about 20x a night. Check out my log. I'm using DSIP (delta sleep inducing peptide) now, with an even stronger anti-histamine (hydroxyzine - prescription), mary jane, along with l-theanine, gaba, 5-HTP and melatonin and I'm only getting up a couple times a night now. It's quite the stack but seemed to work last night for 5-6hrs of sleep.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/303734-outofbodys-out-world-2.html
 
MySTeek

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3x a day not enough?
What's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander. If you need to release more, by all means, listen to your body!
 
Outofbody

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So I deleted my sleep log, DSIP doesn't work very well imo, at least not for bad AAS induced insomnia. I also stopped the NPP. Not worth such bad insomnia. It put trensomnia to shame and it also destroyed my appetite. Never had sides like this on anything else. Not a fan, I'd rather stick to tren/androgens.
 
MySTeek

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So I deleted my sleep log, DSIP doesn't work very well imo, at least not for bad AAS induced insomnia. I also stopped the NPP. Not worth such bad insomnia. It put trensomnia to shame and it also destroyed my appetite. Never had sides like this on anything else. Not a fan, I'd rather stick to tren/androgens.
I wasn't available to follow. My apologies. Can you please offer a small summary of your experience with each?
 
Outofbody

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I wasn't available to follow. My apologies. Can you please offer a small summary of your experience with each?
No problem. I used DSIP for my test, and later learned that P-DSIP will likely work better. A lot of people use 100-400mcg doses. I tried up to 1000mcg on consecutive nights and did not really wake up any less frequently... There were two nights where I slept fairly solid though. Those nights, I took my dose immediately before going to bed, instead of an hour or more like the other shots. I am still not convinced that DSIP works very well in humans yet though as overall it didn't do much, if anything for me. I would need to try it off cycle again sometime.

NPP (was dosing 550mg a week along with 400mg test prop) - gains started in 2nd week - so did gyno flare up - immediately needed ralox + doubled my aromasin and switched to 3x per week caber dosing. Insane insomnia came almost immediately after starting dosing on the first day in the first week, as well as having my appetite destroyed. Waking up about 20x a night even though I'd fall asleep fine. This was ok at first because I would wake up amped everyday and didn't really feel it. After a month tho, not so manageable. In terms of positive effects: Lean, dry, fast gains, no doms (ever), no bloat. I was doing fullbody training 3x a week and really increased my volume but still experienced no lack of recovery in the 48hrs between sessions.
 
John Smeton

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There is data that shows getting under 7 hours of sleep at a time potentiates pro-cancer genes and turns off cancer-fighting genes.

Source: Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker

I am by no means an expert but I read it lol. It wasn't until the early 90s that people started purposely sleeping less. That seems to coincide with the rising tide of obesity and disease.

View attachment 166768



I'd contend switching from intermittent sleep to extended may have led to the evolution of the human brain. That last sleep cycle around the 6-7 hour mark can be the most valuable. It can make or break waking performance.
This is some great research.

From what i know like anything its genetics. Some people can sleep five hours a night and feel great. Most people need eight. I need my sleep or I feel tired and just not optimal. For most people yes your gains are negligible with less sleep than 7-8 hours
 

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