STILL NO ANSWER, DROP IN TT ON SAME DOSE

[Pigskinplayer]

Still can't find a solid answer to why my TT level is 272 points different on the same amount of test cyp 100mg a week.

5 months into TRT I was on 100mg a week test cyp only, nothing else. I tested at 687ng/dl TT and 160pg/ml FT SHBG 28nmol/L

Fast forward to 10 months into TRT and I was taking 125mg a week test cyp, nothing else. I tested at 855ng/dl TT and 218pg/ml FT SHBG 26nmol/L E2 at 48pg/ml

Here's where the strange change comes. I started 500iu HCG twice a week and 25mg aromasin twice a week right after that 10 month test. I also dropped my dose down to 100mg test cyp a week. A month and a half later I tested at 415ng/dl TT and 11ng/dl FT E2 9.6pg/ml. Thinking it was a fluke I tested again 2 months later without changing anything but dropping the HCG: 421ng/dl TT and 96pg/ml FT SHBG 25 E2 17.5pg/ml

What am I missing here or what is going on? All blood draws are done on exactly the same day and time. Does anything interact with test cyp? It's all dr. prescribed pharma grade test. I'm going to up my dose to 150mg a week and see what happens but I'd really like to know what contributed to that large drop on the same dose.

 

[Zvch]

I would guess probably just the fact that about year later your body is going to be desensitized to a small degree to the same dose of testosterone. Especially if it was used to 125mg and you dropped it back down to 100. It could also be affected by how closely to your blood test your injection was.

 

[Pigskinplayer]

I would guess probably just the fact that about year later your body is going to be desensitized to a small degree to the same dose of testosterone. Especially if it was used to 125mg and you dropped it back down to 100. It could also be affected by how closely to your blood test your injection was.

Have you come across any research on desensitization to test cyp? And I inject twice a week, 10:30am Monday morning and 10:30pm Thursday night. I always draw on Thursday around 2pm.

 

[Zvch]

I’m sure there’s research on desensitization to testosterone in general. Your body is going to develop a tolerance to anything you put in it. I’ve seen guys on forums reporting the same thing with blood work to show it. Usually the dose has to be adjusted periodically.
You also have to take into account that even after 6 months, 8 months, or more - however long it takes your HPTA to shut down completely - your body may still be producing a certain amount of endogenous testosterone. Of course it’s dose dependent and compound dependent, stronger androgens or higher doses are going to tank LH and FSH quicker. Depending on who you are, it will take your body a while to stop producing testosterone completely with a low dose of exogenous Test. It’s not that potent of a compound.
You may have just had some endogenous test still laying around in your first couple bloods in addition to your Test Cyp. It may have disappeared by the time of your next bloods.

 

[Pigskinplayer]

I’m sure there’s research on desensitization to testosterone in general. Your body is going to develop a tolerance to anything you put in it. I’ve seen guys on forums reporting the same thing with blood work to show it. Usually the dose has to be adjusted periodically.
You also have to take into account that even after 6 months, 8 months, or more - however long it takes your HPTA to shut down completely - your body may still be producing a certain amount of endogenous testosterone. Of course it’s dose dependent and compound dependent, stronger androgens or higher doses are going to tank LH and FSH quicker. Depending on who you are, it will take your body a while to stop producing testosterone completely with a low dose of exogenous Test. It’s not that potent of a compound.
You may have just had some endogenous test still laying around in your first couple bloods in addition to your Test Cyp. It may have disappeared by the time of your next bloods.

From the 2nd paragraph down is what I was thinking also. Lingering endogenous test that finally shut off when I raised it to 125mg a week. Now that it's shut off I'm getting a true dose reading.

 

[Zvch]

Yeah man I wouldn’t be surprised at all. Not a big deal. 100-200 is a low TRT dose anyway as far as I’m concerned. If 125 or 150 is what you need then so be it. Of course there are different schools of thought there. The right idea is to treat the patient, not the number. You should be at whatever makes you feel right. That’s the whole point of the therapy. How you feel at a certain number is personal to you, it’s subjective.
I tend to subscribe to the “optimal levels” school of thought. There are no proven long-term negative effects on health besides hemoglobin and hematocrit until you go over 600mg a week. I personally think 250 or 300 is a perfect TRT dose. Why not be at 1200-1500 TT and feel fantastic if it’s not going to harm you? Being close to 1500 wouldn’t be abnormal 100 years ago. But that’s just my unrelated opinion.

 

[CatSnake]

From the 2nd paragraph down is what I was thinking also. Lingering endogenous test that finally shut off when I raised it to 125mg a week. Now that it's shut off I'm getting a true dose reading.

yeah, but then the HCG would raise the TT again, as you would have some HPTA function again....

did you have any change in weight/bodyfat, or take any different supplements during this time?

 

[Pigskinplayer]

yeah, but then the HCG would raise the TT again, as you would have some HPTA function again....

did you have any change in weight/bodyfat, or take any different supplements during this time?

I was thinking the same thing about the HCG but it may have been bunk. It came from India. 18 days in the mail with no refrigeration. No other changes. The Aromasin is Pfizer from Turkey and my bloodwork shows it works very effectively. I take 50mg DHEA, 500mg Magnesium, 5000iu Vitamin D, 50mg Zinc, and 160mg Valsartan.

 

[CatSnake]

I was thinking the same thing about the HCG but it may have been bunk. It came from India. 18 days in the mail with no refrigeration. No other changes. The Aromasin is Pfizer from Turkey and my bloodwork shows it works very effectively. I take 50mg DHEA, 500mg Magnesium, 5000iu Vitamin D, 50mg Zinc, and 160mg Valsartan.

you can use a home pregnancy test to see if the HCG is good.

that long of a trip makes me think it's not good, though..... your E2 dropped quite a bit, and HCG tends to elevate that.

 

[CatSnake]

^have you injected the same way all the time, too?

 

[Pigskinplayer]

you can use a home pregnancy test to see if the HCG is good.

that long of a trip makes me think it's not good, though..... your E2 dropped quite a bit, and HCG tends to elevate that.

Remember I am taking 25mg Aromasin twice a week

 

[Pigskinplayer]

^have you injected the same way all the time, too?

Nope. I started Sub Q a few months ago after doing research and seeing that it didn't affect blood serum test levels as opposed to IM. In fact from the medical journals I read that you're should get more bang for your buck on Sub Q. Thoughts?

 

[bigbeaph]

Nope. I started Sub Q a few months ago after doing research and seeing that it didn't affect blood serum test levels as opposed to IM. In fact from the medical journals I read that you're should get more bang for your buck on Sub Q. Thoughts?

There are advantages on both sides. I tend to see it lean more toward IM but at the end of the day it's just preference. Subq will release slower into the bloodstream which may even mean less ai is needed. I've heard a doctor comment that he sees a lot more infected injection sites with subq - but no hard data. Subq is so dang easy, if it works for you then stick with it.

 

[sammpedd88]

Have you always had your labs done at 2pm? Test levels are typically the highest in the morning.

 

[sammpedd88]

Yeah man I wouldn’t be surprised at all. Not a big deal. 100-200 is a low TRT dose anyway as far as I’m concerned. If 125 or 150 is what you need then so be it. Of course there are different schools of thought there. The right idea is to treat the patient, not the number. You should be at whatever makes you feel right. That’s the whole point of the therapy. How you feel at a certain number is personal to you, it’s subjective.
I tend to subscribe to the “optimal levels” school of thought. There are no proven long-term negative effects on health besides hemoglobin and hematocrit until you go over 600mg a week. I personally think 250 or 300 is a perfect TRT dose. Why not be at 1200-1500 TT and feel fantastic if it’s not going to harm you? Being close to 1500 wouldn’t be abnormal 100 years ago. But that’s just my unrelated opinion.

100-200 mgs of test on TRT is normal. Anything above 200 mgs is typically too high although a few guys do need a little more than 200 mgs to get them within physiological levels. Good TRT docs normally start with 100 mgs of test and go from there. I started with 100 mgs and bumped up to 125 mgs and then went back down to 100 mgs. Been on 100 mgs for a few years now and my TT is in the low 800’s.

 

[Pigskinplayer]

Have you always had your labs done at 2pm? Test levels are typically the highest in the morning.

I inject. It has no bearing. I'm just aiming for as close to my trough as possible.

 

[sammpedd88]

I inject. It has no bearing. I'm just aiming for as close to my trough as possible.

All the information I’ve read says the time of day you have your blood drawn does have a bearing. You should have it done in the morning. I’ve been injecting for about 5 years now.

 

[Pigskinplayer]

All the information I’ve read says the time of day you have your blood drawn does have a bearing. You should have it done in the morning. I’ve been injecting for about 5 years now.

Only endogenous test is affected by time of day. And even if it was a factor all tests have been done at the same time and there's now over a 200 point difference at the same dose 5 months apart.

 

[sammpedd88]

Only endogenous test is affected by time of day. And even if it was a factor all tests have been done at the same time and there's now over a 200 point difference at the same dose 5 months apart.

But your natural production has to be taken in consideration with the exogenous test. You may not be totally shutdown. That’s why I was inquiring if you always had your labs done in the afternoon. You’ve only been on TRT for 5 months so this would be a factor in the beginning.

So I defer back to my original post. I think you’re now totally shutdown and that’s why you’ve had a big drop. I’ve adjusted my injection levels a few times in the first two years of being on TRT.

 

[bigbeaph]

But your natural production has to be taken in consideration with the exogenous test. You may not be totally shutdown. That’s why I was inquiring if you always had your labs done in the afternoon. You’ve only been on TRT for 5 months so this would be a factor in the beginning.

So I defer back to my original post. I think you’re now totally shutdown and that’s why you’ve had a big drop. I’ve adjusted my injection levels a few times in the first two years of being on TRT.

^^^this is the only thing that makes sense to my (little) mind. Has to be it....I'd bet you get your dose adjusted and your gtg from here on out. Your body just held on for a while is all....I'm the same way. Conceived a child at the tail end of a 4 month cycle when theoretically I was shut down.....except for a little bit lol

 

[Pigskinplayer]

But your natural production has to be taken in consideration with the exogenous test. You may not be totally shutdown. That’s why I was inquiring if you always had your labs done in the afternoon. You’ve only been on TRT for 5 months so this would be a factor in the beginning.

So I defer back to my original post. I think you’re now totally shutdown and that’s why you’ve had a big drop. I’ve adjusted my injection levels a few times in the first two years of being on TRT.

Ok, I get what you are saying now and yes I'm leaning toward the total shutdown theory, after 8 months or so. I've been on a year total now. Only thing that concerns me is that 150mg a week will only take me to about 560ng/dl and 200mg a week 750ng/dl

 

[bigbeaph]

Ok, I get what you are saying now and yes I'm leaning toward the total shutdown theory, after 8 months or so. I've been on a year total now. Only thing that concerns me is that 150mg a week will only take me to about 560ng/dl and 200mg a week 750ng/dl

What number are you trying to hit?

 

[Pigskinplayer]

What number are you trying to hit?

800 to 850. They average male my age (42) is 679 naturally, but of course me don't want to be an average 42yr old male

 

[Pigskinplayer]

What number are you trying to hit?

My first labs at 3 months on 150mg a week was 957ng/dl. That's when I got dropped to 100mg a week.

 

[sammpedd88]

^^^this is the only thing that makes sense to my (little) mind. Has to be it....I'd bet you get your dose adjusted and your gtg from here on out. Your body just held on for a while is all....I'm the same way. Conceived a child at the tail end of a 4 month cycle when theoretically I was shut down.....except for a little bit lol

Congrats on conceiving man! Hey....it only takes a little bit!! Lol

 

[CatSnake]

Nope. I started Sub Q a few months ago after doing research and seeing that it didn't affect blood serum test levels as opposed to IM. In fact from the medical journals I read that you're should get more bang for your buck on Sub Q. Thoughts?

ah.

yeah, I also tried sub-Q, thinking it would result in equal blood levels.

mine dropped a bit.... 100 or so. I recently went back to IM injections because of this. that's mostly likely your issue there....

 

[Pigskinplayer]

ah.

yeah, I also tried sub-Q, thinking it would result in equal blood levels.

mine dropped a bit.... 100 or so. I recently went back to IM injections because of this. that's mostly likely your issue there....

Man, if that's the case imma be sad. Sub Q is so painless and convenient. No worry about hitting nerves in your quad. Maybe Sub Q was too good to be true. Well maybe when I go back wednesday to see my doctor I'll ask for 200mg a week and titrate up IM every six weeks until I hit my number.

 

[sammpedd88]

Man, if that's the case imma be sad. Sub Q is so painless and convenient. No worry about hitting nerves in your quad. Maybe Sub Q was too good to be true. Well maybe when I go back wednesday to see my doctor I'll ask for 200mg a week and titrate up IM every six weeks until I hit my number.

What gauge pin were you using on IM.

 

[Pigskinplayer]

What gauge pin were you using on IM.

1/2" 29g
I know, I know, I need to suck it up, lol

 

[bigbeaph]

1/2" 29g
I know, I know, I need to suck it up, lol

That'll work on delts and quads if your lean enough no problem. Just might need bigger if you want to do glute or vg sticks

 

[sammpedd88]

1/2" 29g
I know, I know, I need to suck it up, lol

I use 23 gauge 1 inch. I could definitely go smaller and shorter but no matter what I use in my quads, they stay pretty sore. I rotate between my delts and glutes mostly. Your size pins are perfect for delts.

 

[Pigskinplayer]

I use 23 gauge 1 inch. I could definitely go smaller and shorter but no matter what I use in my quads, they stay pretty sore. I rotate between my delts and glutes mostly. Your size pins are perfect for delts.

I used to get sore here and there when I pinned quads. I may try delts. Never have before. I've just enjoyed the ease and painlessness of Sub Q. I've been using 1/2" 29g since I read it in the TRT sticky on this site. Anyways, back on topic it looks like my blood serum discrepancy is sub q pins or delayed shutdown.

 

[CatSnake]

Man, if that's the case imma be sad. Sub Q is so painless and convenient. No worry about hitting nerves in your quad. Maybe Sub Q was too good to be true. Well maybe when I go back wednesday to see my doctor I'll ask for 200mg a week and titrate up IM every six weeks until I hit my number.

yeah, I was hoping for the same thing.

I use slin needles and alternate between delts now. takes a while to draw, but no issues otherwise....

I will double check my bloodwork, but the drop might have been closer to 200 than 100 from switching to sub Q. less E2 conversion, but that's not an issue for me anyway....

 

[Pigskinplayer]

yeah, I was hoping for the same thing.

I use slin needles and alternate between delts now. takes a while to draw, but no issues otherwise....

I will double check my bloodwork, but the drop might have been closer to 200 than 100 from switching to sub Q. less E2 conversion, but that's not an issue for me anyway....

Backfill them bro. Takes about 10min to make 4 preloaded syringes which will last 2 weeks. Plus you get a fresh super sharp needle tip. If you double check let me know. Also I take Aromasin so E2 ain't an issue for me either.

 

[sammpedd88]

I used to get sore here and there when I pinned quads. I may try delts. Never have before. I've just enjoyed the ease and painlessness of Sub Q. I've been using 1/2" 29g since I read it in the TRT sticky on this site. Anyways, back on topic it looks like my blood serum discrepancy is sub q pins or delayed shutdown.

I think you’re on point now man! I was nervous as hell about pinning my delts. I actually prefer them now. Good luck man! TRT is a crazy road but it’s so worth the ride!

 

[Pigskinplayer]

I think you’re on point now man! I was nervous as hell about pinning my delts. I actually prefer them now. Good luck man! TRT is a crazy road but it’s so worth the ride!

Man, I've been on just over a year and the journey has been crazy trying to find that sweet spot but I couldn't imagine not being on it now that I have. I'm 80% satisfied at this point. The last infinity stone I have yet to attain is the sex drive/libido. Everything else is good.

 

[CatSnake]

Backfill them bro. Takes about 10min to make 4 preloaded syringes which will last 2 weeks. Plus you get a fresh super sharp needle tip. If you double check let me know. Also I take Aromasin so E2 ain't an issue for me either.

yeah, I don't mind the wait. I run the cyp under hot water for a minute or so and it moves a bit faster. but I split my shots into 2 injections per week, and only need to draw a half ML at a pop...


my notes are a little crappy, but it definitely looks like about a drop of 150-200. I have tweaked my dose a few times for various reasons, but the trend is that it's a lot lower on sub-Q. I think for really lean guys or people that metabolize really fast it would be a good option, however. I am not one of those guys, tho….

 

[CatSnake]

I’m sure there’s research on desensitization to testosterone in general. Your body is going to develop a tolerance to anything you put in it. I’ve seen guys on forums reporting the same thing with blood work to show it. Usually the dose has to be adjusted periodically.
You also have to take into account that even after 6 months, 8 months, or more - however long it takes your HPTA to shut down completely - your body may still be producing a certain amount of endogenous testosterone. Of course it’s dose dependent and compound dependent, stronger androgens or higher doses are going to tank LH and FSH quicker. Depending on who you are, it will take your body a while to stop producing testosterone completely with a low dose of exogenous Test. It’s not that potent of a compound.
You may have just had some endogenous test still laying around in your first couple bloods in addition to your Test Cyp. It may have disappeared by the time of your next bloods.

I forgot to mention this before....

it's not really an issue with desensitization per se. the body increase androgen receptors when androgen levels are low, and lowers their density when androgen levels are low.

^I suspect that this is part of the reason why their is a "lag time" when most guys start their cycles, as their androgens levels have spiked pretty quickly, but the body is backfilling the number of receptors to take advantage of this.

in this case, I still don't think that this has a huge effect though, and this is more to do with switching from IM to sub-Q.

 

[CatSnake]

I forgot to mention this before....

it's not really an issue with desensitization per se. the body increase androgen receptors when androgen levels are high, and lowers their density when androgen levels are low.

^I suspect that this is part of the reason why there is a "lag time" when most guys start their cycles, as their androgens levels have spiked pretty quickly, but the body is backfilling the number of receptors to take advantage of this.

in this case, I still don't think that this has a huge effect though, and this is more to do with switching from IM to sub-Q.

EDIT

 

[Pigskinplayer]

EDIT

I'm going back to 6 weeks of IM at 125mg to see what happens. Last time I did this protocol I came in at about 850ng/dl TT and 48pg/ml E2 on trough day. This was without AI also. I predict around 24pg/ml with my AI but we will see.

 

[bigbeaph]

I'm going back to 6 weeks of IM at 125mg to see what happens. Last time I did this protocol I came in at about 850ng/dl TT and 48pg/ml E2 on trough day. This was without AI also. I predict around 24pg/ml with my AI but we will see.

Give us an update when appropriate. Getting ready to start trt myself and this is just crazy interesting