What is the Best Ecdysterone or Turkesterone Supplement

sns8778

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I sit back and watch all the debate and misinformation on the Turkesterone and Ecdysterone and just shake my head. It's nowhere near as complex as some companies make it out to be - but that's why they do it - for marketing purposes.

I'll just say that from the perspective of someone that does raw material sourcing for a living, I cringe every time any company claims to be the only place that can get a particular extract. Raw material vendors are in business to make money and therefore aren't just sitting on an ingredient and selling it to one company unless there is a huge supply agreement in place and no companies doing Ecdysterone or Turkesterone are even a tenth the size it would take to do that type of an agreement.
 

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What brand did you use? The Gorilla Mind reviews seem too good to be true, but they also seem like a legit company, so I don’t know what to believe at this point.
I'm with you on that. I don't know what or whom to believe either. Many companies have an almost sycophantic following to one degree or another and they will hype a product no matter the effects, or lack thereof. Gorilla Mind's (Derek's) base is one of the more extreme examples - but, if Turk/Ecdy do in fact produce noticeable results, I think Derek's products would show it as I trust he's as legit, or more so, as most of the others.

I think it comes down to trial and error, for the most part. I might try to score some Intelligent Elephant Ecdy when it hits and see what happens. Worst case scenario, I'm out around $100. (That doesn't sound as appealing when I read it back as it did when I typed it)
 

1234512345

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I'm with you on that. I don't know what or whom to believe either. Many companies have an almost sycophantic following to one degree or another and they will hype a product no matter the effects, or lack thereof. Gorilla Mind's (Derek's) base is one of the more extreme examples - but, if Turk/Ecdy do in fact produce noticeable results, I think Derek's products would show it as I trust he's as legit, or more so, as most of the others.

I think it comes down to trial and error, for the most part. I might try to score some Intelligent Elephant Ecdy when it hits and see what happens. Worst case scenario, I'm out around $100. (That doesn't sound as appealing when I read it back as it did when I typed it)
Considering Derek's entire reputation is based on calling out other fitness youtubers on making false claims, and picking apart dishonest ingredient profiles or product claims, it would seem like a really, really idiotic move to flush 10 years of work building his brand and reputation over designing a dishonest ingredient profile or making false claims himself.

He'd be shooting himself in the foot, and though I don't know the guy personally, he really doesn't come off as an idiot to me, or greedy. He demonstrated that by refusing to sell his Turk raw (he is instead, as he stated, complexing it with hydroxypropyl beta cyclodextrin, which takes far longer but makes it far more effective), even though the demand was so high that it was being scalped for 500$ a bottle.

That alone tells me everything I need to know about the guy.
 
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50Magnum

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Considering Derek's entire reputation is based on calling out other fitness youtubers on making false claims, and picking apart dishonest ingredient profiles or product claims, it would seem like a really, really idiotic move to flush 10 years of work building his brand and reputation over designing a dishonest ingredient profile or making false claims himself.

He'd be shooting himself in the foot, and though I don't know the guy personally, he really doesn't come off as an idiot to me, or greedy. He demonstrated that by refusing to sell his Turk raw (he is instead, as he stated, complexing it with hydroxypropyl beta cyclodextrin, which takes far longer but makes it far more effective), even though the demand was so high that it was being scalped for 500$ a bottle.

That alone tells me everything I need to know about the guy.
yea i mean he explains that it is not as simple as peps think of it as, u cant just have a product and throw in the cyclodextrin. i see that iron forged ecdy is ecdy with cyclodextrin, but when asked about the ecdy source the company doesnt respond back.......
 
Afi140

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I sit back and watch all the debate and misinformation on the Turkesterone and Ecdysterone and just shake my head. It's nowhere near as complex as some companies make it out to be - but that's why they do it - for marketing purposes.

I'll just say that from the perspective of someone that does raw material sourcing for a living, I cringe every time any company claims to be the only place that can get a particular extract. Raw material vendors are in business to make money and therefore aren't just sitting on an ingredient and selling it to one company unless there is a huge supply agreement in place and no companies doing Ecdysterone or Turkesterone are even a tenth the size it would take to do that type of an agreement.
 

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yea i mean he explains that it is not as simple as peps think of it as, u cant just have a product and throw in the cyclodextrin. i see that iron forged ecdy is ecdy with cyclodextrin, but when asked about the ecdy source the company doesnt respond back.......
Well that's not a good sign. Funny thing is, their stuff worked pretty well for me. But it's a little disappointing they didn't respond, so I don't know what's going on with that, or if it's for a less than desirable reason.

If you feel like it's not worth risking the money, Derek's also releasing ecdy that's as high quality his turk apparently. It's expected to launch sometime in October (early estimate) if I recall correctly. Under intelligent elephant.

Intelligent Elephant
 
sns8778

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yea i mean he explains that it is not as simple as peps think of it as, u cant just have a product and throw in the cyclodextrin. i see that iron forged ecdy is ecdy with cyclodextrin, but when asked about the ecdy source the company doesnt respond back.......
I wouldn't read too much into that bc that could just be them not wanting to give up their raw material supplier/source or assuming you're a competitor.

Ecdysterone is not easy to source but its not terribly hard to source either if you have the right connections. I had a company owner contact me within the last month asking for my help sourcing it. It took me less than 24 hours to have him all the information he needed to be able to move forward with his product.
 
50Magnum

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I wouldn't read too much into that bc that could just be them not wanting to give up their raw material supplier/source or assuming you're a competitor.

Ecdysterone is not easy to source but its not terribly hard to source either if you have the right connections. I had a company owner contact me within the last month asking for my help sourcing it. It took me less than 24 hours to have him all the information he needed to be able to move forward with his product.
Pretty sure most these companies like boldanic, tonvara and derek source from that institue in Ubezikistan. I know someone who was directed to them when they wanted to create their own turk product.
 
50Magnum

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Well that's not a good sign. Funny thing is, their stuff worked pretty well for me. But it's a little disappointing they didn't respond, so I don't know what's going on with that, or if it's for a less than desirable reason.

If you feel like it's not worth risking the money, Derek's also releasing ecdy that's as high quality his turk apparently. It's expected to launch sometime in October (early estimate) if I recall correctly. Under intelligent elephant.

Intelligent Elephant
I never tried their ecdy only product. But I did try most wanted, fr some reason it made me tired after dosing, decently dose of laxogenin usually does that for me.
 
sns8778

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Pretty sure most these companies like boldanic, tonvara and derek source from that institue in Ubezikistan. I know someone who was directed to them when they wanted to create their own turk product.
I was just trying to add perspective and answer you as to why the company may not have replied back to you.

The person on here that normally refers people the place in Uzbekistan, I've been friends with for many years outside of the forums; so I'm very familiar with that source along with the raw materials that they have available and their pricing. And I'll just say that I think you're making an assumption that's not entirely accurate.

Just because someone tells someone to check somewhere doesn't mean that's where they buy it from, that that place even has he particular % extracts that the company is looking for, or that the place in question will even sell to every company that contacts them.

I also want to clarify that that's not a bad thing because it's not like that's the only place that has these raw materials. As these raws get more popular, they become more available - as with anything. But also as with most herbals, the % potencies can vary dramatically from source to source - and never make the mistake of thinking that companies necessarily want the most expensive or best source. There's one company now that I know of that the % extract of Arjuna Turkestanica they are using costs less than 1/10th of the price of another.

I'm going back to staying out of this thread bc I do know a lot about the things that people are speculating on here but as I do raw material sourcing for a lot of different companies (not sure if you knew that), I need to sit this one out bc I do know the answers to much that's speculated on this subject haha :)
 

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There's one company now that I know of that the % extract of Arjuna Turkestanica they are using costs less than 1/10th of the price of another.
For the same percentage of extract, they are paying 1/10th the price which another company is paying? Or they are getting a correspondingly lower percentage of extract at the lower price? If it's the latter, that would just follow logic and serve as reminder that not all similar supplements are created equal.
 

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I was just trying to add perspective and answer you as to why the company may not have replied back to you.

The person on here that normally refers people the place in Uzbekistan, I've been friends with for many years outside of the forums; so I'm very familiar with that source along with the raw materials that they have available and their pricing. And I'll just say that I think you're making an assumption that's not entirely accurate.

Just because someone tells someone to check somewhere doesn't mean that's where they buy it from, that that place even has he particular % extracts that the company is looking for, or that the place in question will even sell to every company that contacts them.

I also want to clarify that that's not a bad thing because it's not like that's the only place that has these raw materials. As these raws get more popular, they become more available - as with anything. But also as with most herbals, the % potencies can vary dramatically from source to source - and never make the mistake of thinking that companies necessarily want the most expensive or best source. There's one company now that I know of that the % extract of Arjuna Turkestanica they are using costs less than 1/10th of the price of another.

I'm going back to staying out of this thread bc I do know a lot about the things that people are speculating on here but as I do raw material sourcing for a lot of different companies (not sure if you knew that), I need to sit this one out bc I do know the answers to much that's speculated on this subject haha :)
I think the lure of ecdysterone is that it is one of the few natural compounds that have been compared to anabolic steroids in studies and has shown to have a similar and sometimes superior effects. I believe if SNS did an Ecdysterone/Turkesterone product it would be a big hit because everyone would have confidence that the product would be sourced right and dosed right. I think Ecdy is one of those products that show results over the long term but people have this perception it is some quick mass gainer because of the hype a lot of companies give it.
 
BCseacow83

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I think the lure of ecdysterone is that it is one of the few natural compounds that have been compared to anabolic steroids in studies and has shown to have a similar and sometimes superior effects. I believe if SNS did an Ecdysterone/Turkesterone product it would be a big hit because everyone would have confidence that the product would be sourced right and dosed right. I think Ecdy is one of those products that show results over the long term but people have this perception it is some quick mass gainer because of the hype a lot of companies give it.
People also have unrealistic expectations for almost ALL natural muscle builders. IMO much of this has to do with the last 20 years and the easy access to OTC androgens via PH/DS. When you hear or experience a scale jump on 10-20lbs in a month to six weeks you get this HUGELY skewed idea of what to expect from muscle building products. If you eliminate the water and glycogen gains from those DS the actual tissue accumulation is rather modest in comparison.

Take ARA: "Post-hoc comparisons revealed that only the Ex ARA group increased LBM significantly following 8 weeks of supplementation (2.9%, p<0.0007) (Fig 1a). In addition, Ex ARA group demonstrated a CIdiff not crossing zero for the increase in LBM (Ex ARA: 95% CIdiff: mean 1.6kg, lower limit 0.7, upper limit 2.6kg; Ex CTL: 95% CIdiff: mean 0.04kg, lower limit -0.9, upper limit 0.99kg)."

So in 8 weeks you see it's POSSIBLE to gain 2.6kg or 5.72lbs with mean gain of 1.6kg or 3.52lbs. The study also showed up to 8.7% increase in bench press 1RM and 20.5% increase in leg press 1RM. This was in subjects with two or more years of training.

I tell customers all the time, "this product showed gains up to 5.72lbs in 8 weeks(people always want to know exactly what can they gain lol)" more times than not people scoff at this as almost being not worth it lol. I guess they gain better than I do as I am NOT routinely gaining 5lbs of muscle every two months.

TLDR people have unrealistic expectations and almost no patience. IF MPMD were to have an unlimited supply of his turk people will eventually move on as it will not be the magic they expect it to be even if it delivers quality consistent gains.
 
sns8778

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For the same percentage of extract, they are paying 1/10th the price which another company is paying? Or they are getting a correspondingly lower percentage of extract at the lower price? If it's the latter, that would just follow logic and serve as reminder that not all similar supplements are created equal.
For the example that I used there, not only are customers not saving a penny but the company is using clever wording trying to convince consumers that there's is better.
 
sns8778

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I think the lure of ecdysterone is that it is one of the few natural compounds that have been compared to anabolic steroids in studies and has shown to have a similar and sometimes superior effects. I believe if SNS did an Ecdysterone/Turkesterone product it would be a big hit because everyone would have confidence that the product would be sourced right and dosed right. I think Ecdy is one of those products that show results over the long term but people have this perception it is some quick mass gainer because of the hype a lot of companies give it.
I appreciate the faith and support but the honest truth is that even if we went with the best extracts available, it would still be the marketing type companies selling the most of this because they're hyping it with unrealistic claims that I'm just not willing to make.

I agree that Ecdysterone products, if done right, have potential to show results over the long term but nothing natural is going to live up to the hype to match the claims that some companies have put behind it.
 

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I was just trying to add perspective and answer you as to why the company may not have replied back to you.

The person on here that normally refers people the place in Uzbekistan, I've been friends with for many years outside of the forums; so I'm very familiar with that source along with the raw materials that they have available and their pricing. And I'll just say that I think you're making an assumption that's not entirely accurate.

Just because someone tells someone to check somewhere doesn't mean that's where they buy it from, that that place even has he particular % extracts that the company is looking for, or that the place in question will even sell to every company that contacts them.

I also want to clarify that that's not a bad thing because it's not like that's the only place that has these raw materials. As these raws get more popular, they become more available - as with anything. But also as with most herbals, the % potencies can vary dramatically from source to source - and never make the mistake of thinking that companies necessarily want the most expensive or best source. There's one company now that I know of that the % extract of Arjuna Turkestanica they are using costs less than 1/10th of the price of another.

I'm going back to staying out of this thread bc I do know a lot about the things that people are speculating on here but as I do raw material sourcing for a lot of different companies (not sure if you knew that), I need to sit this one out bc I do know the answers to much that's speculated on this subject haha :)
so... you could tell us all which Turk product has the most bioavailable complex? That would save us all a lot of time.
 
50Magnum

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Isnt there a million types of ecdy though?? I heard the rhaponticum carthamoides frm Mass Pro and Kre Alkyn were good, but I believe they are underdosed. Need grams of that ****. I tried sme turk frm another company and I was having sme serious bowel problems on the 2nd day and it was supposed to be mixed with "hydropropyl cyclodextrin"
 

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Isnt there a million types of ecdy though?? I heard the rhaponticum carthamoides frm Mass Pro and Kre Alkyn were good, but I believe they are underdosed. Need grams of that ****. I tried sme turk frm another company and I was having sme serious bowel problems on the 2nd day and it was supposed to be mixed with "hydropropyl cyclodextrin"
That Mass Pro Synthagen X2 is the truth!!! According to the formulator @Mixelflick the actual amount of rhaponticum carthamoides in the formula is way overkill even for a 350lb man.
 

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That Mass Pro Synthagen X2 is the truth!!! According to the formulator @Mixelflick the actual amount of rhaponticum carthamoides in the formula is way overkill even for a 350lb man.
yeah, it was expensive, but solid. Idk why it makes you so thirsty and piss constantly though.

Aside for that, totally worth it. For me, at least
 
djbombsquad

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MyoSynergy, BMP, X-factor, Iconogenin, Androgin, Follidrone, Anabolic Effect, Massacre, Most Wanted, Exubol, Anafuse off the top of my head.
Yep good ones !!!
 
50Magnum

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Is Boldanic still legit to order from? I ordered like a week ago from them, I contacted their support and they just never responded. I remember they use to frequent this forum but it looks like they haven't updated their instagram or facebook in a while
 
mechka_grizli

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Is Boldanic still legit to order from? I ordered like a week ago from them, I contacted their support and they just never responded. I remember they use to frequent this forum but it looks like they haven't updated their instagram or facebook in a while
They're no longer a forum sponsor and some ish went down between them and Performaxx Labs
 
50Magnum

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They're no longer a forum sponsor and some ish went down between them and Performaxx Labs
yea I know about that whole ordeal, but was wondering if they were still legit/active. Its like they havent updated their website or social media in years.
 
mechka_grizli

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yea I know about that whole ordeal, but was wondering if they were still legit/active. Its like they havent updated their website or social media in years.
I'm not sure. Hate to say it, but im glad you posted this. Was literally going to order 6 bottles tonight
 
sns8778

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Keep in mind that even if they are still in business, a lot can change with sourcing and the supply chain over the years. Meaning that its never safe to make assumptions that just because a company sourced from place xyz years ago, it doesn't mean that they still do.
 
enhanced

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I got an email the other day from some labz that says they're now selling turk capsules. 10% turk @ 615mg per capsule. Seems wicked...
 
50Magnum

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I'm not sure. Hate to say it, but im glad you posted this. Was literally going to order 6 bottles tonight
they sent me a tracking last week but looking at the tracking it still hasnt been shipped, they do say on their website if they are back ordered it will take a while. Its just that they dont respond back via email when u emailthem.
 
50Magnum

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I got an email the other day from some labz that says they're now selling turk capsules. 10% turk @ 615mg per capsule. Seems wicked...
nick trigilli is selling it to now and pj braun relaunced myo-stak lol
 

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Yeah Boldanic hasn't been active in awhile. I thought about ordering from them also but I never heard back from them either when I contacted them so I decided not to. I still think MASS PRO SYNTHAGEN X2 is the best overall ecdy product but VEMOHERB has a good one as well. Just takes about a month to get it if you live in the US.
 
50Magnum

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Yeah Boldanic hasn't been active in awhile. I thought about ordering from them also but I never heard back from them either when I contacted them so I decided not to. I still think MASS PRO SYNTHAGEN X2 is the best overall ecdy product but VEMOHERB has a good one as well. Just takes about a month to get it if you live in the US.
they just got back to me, said they shipped it out but the tracking says elsewhere. They did let me know if my package doesn't arrive but next Mon they will give me my full refund. I had to email them literally 4 times for them to respond back, so they are still active just not that responsive.
 

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I ordered Exubol from Boldanic earlier in the year. In addition to a ridiculously long delay in shipping, once I received my order I was concerned about the date stamped on each bottle. I don’t recall the month, but the year was like 2017. I don’t know how long after a supplement like this is bottled before it begins to lose its strength.
 
50Magnum

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I ordered Exubol from Boldanic earlier in the year. In addition to a ridiculously long delay in shipping, once I received my order I was concerned about the date stamped on each bottle. I don’t recall the month, but the year was like 2017. I don’t know how long after a supplement like this is bottled before it begins to lose its strength.
expiration was 2017 or manufacture date?? I dont know how ecdys work in terms of past expiration, but I know anabolics, prohormones, sarms and most suppplements like creatine, bcaa and preworkouts are good past expiration. how did it go for you btw with the recent exubol u received?
 

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expiration was 2017 or manufacture date?? I dont know how ecdys work in terms of past expiration, but I know anabolics, prohormones, sarms and most suppplements like creatine, bcaa and preworkouts are good past expiration. how did it go for you btw with the recent exubol u received?
Don’t know what the date was for. I’m done with Turk. Tried different brands at ever increasing dosages. Had to finally admit it did nothing for me.
 
sns8778

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I've been mostly observing on this thread, but here are a few general observations:
  • Every product should have a lot/batch # and an expiration date.
  • Occasionally brands will use a manufactured date rather than an expiration date.
  • If it was indeed an expiration date of 2017, they should have never sent you that product last year.
  • Even if it was a manufactured date of 2017, they should have let you know how old it was before it was shipped.
  • The length of time a product is good past a date depends on the ingredient(s) and storage factors. There is no one set answer to that.
  • There is so much more to the Turkesterone supply chain situation than many people realize. I wish I could say more about it, but as some here know, I handle raw material sourcing for some different brands - so I'm limited on what I can say bc I don't want to accidentally provide information that could help out competing brands of anyone I handle things for - but I will say that there are huge pricing discrepancies on raw material pricing, % extracts, what its extracted for, and testing methods.
 

slickwillie

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I've been mostly observing on this thread, but here are a few general observations:
  • Every product should have a lot/batch # and an expiration date.
  • Occasionally brands will use a manufactured date rather than an expiration date.
  • If it was indeed an expiration date of 2017, they should have never sent you that product last year.
  • Even if it was a manufactured date of 2017, they should have let you know how old it was before it was shipped.
  • The length of time a product is good past a date depends on the ingredient(s) and storage factors. There is no one set answer to that.
  • There is so much more to the Turkesterone supply chain situation than many people realize. I wish I could say more about it, but as some here know, I handle raw material sourcing for some different brands - so I'm limited on what I can say bc I don't want to accidentally provide information that could help out competing brands of anyone I handle things for - but I will say that there are huge pricing discrepancies on raw material pricing, % extracts, what its extracted for, and testing methods.
Good information. Thanks.
 
50Magnum

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Don’t know what the date was for. I’m done with Turk. Tried different brands at ever increasing dosages. Had to finally admit it did nothing for me.
yea it seems to be a hit or miss with people. to be honest im seeing more positive ecdy reviews compared to turk. I dont think it is even as good as creatine............but never hurts to try.
 

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I'm thinking injection for Turk for the brave ones is where it's at.
 

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yea it seems to be a hit or miss with people. to be honest im seeing more positive ecdy reviews compared to turk. I dont think it is even as good as creatine............but never hurts to try.
Yeah @Mixelflick has always said that ecdysterone from full spectrum rhaponticum carthamoides had better anabolic effects than just straight turkesterone.
 
mechka_grizli

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Yeah Boldanic hasn't been active in awhile. I thought about ordering from them also but I never heard back from them either when I contacted them so I decided not to. I still think MASS PRO SYNTHAGEN X2 is the best overall ecdy product but VEMOHERB has a good one as well. Just takes about a month to get it if you live in the US.
@Danes had Vemoherb tested and it was WAAAAY below the label claims
 
50Magnum

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Yeah @Mixelflick has always said that ecdysterone from full spectrum rhaponticum carthamoides had better anabolic effects than just straight turkesterone.
Ive tried his mass pro, didnt get much. Did get a lil better recovery and well being. If it wasnt 80 bucks, something in more in the lines of 40 bucks I would of purchased it again.
 
mechka_grizli

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I think something people don't understand about Ecdy is it's an adaptogen and meant to be used during periods of over training. It helps dramatically with recovery which allows you to train harder, more frequently, which leads to bigger strength gains/mass increase. You can't just continue the same routine and expect results. Gotta push your body and it will shine
 
jameschoi

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I think something people don't understand about Ecdy is it's an adaptogen and meant to be used during periods of over training. It helps dramatically with recovery which allows you to train harder, more frequently, which leads to bigger strength gains/mass increase. You can't just continue the same routine and expect results. Gotta push your body and it will shine
What brand do you use?
 
50Magnum

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I think something people don't understand about Ecdy is it's an adaptogen and meant to be used during periods of over training. It helps dramatically with recovery which allows you to train harder, more frequently, which leads to bigger strength gains/mass increase. You can't just continue the same routine and expect results. Gotta push your body and it will shine
I did use it like I was training everyday. I usually recover fastwhen I do multiple body parts per week, but I didnt get a "deca" like recovery like people were touting mass pro to be.
 
emiliozapata

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yea i mean he explains that it is not as simple as peps think of it as, u cant just have a product and throw in the cyclodextrin. i see that iron forged ecdy is ecdy with cyclodextrin, but when asked about the ecdy source the company doesnt respond back.......
then assume china or something else questionable
 
emiliozapata

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They're no longer a forum sponsor and some ish went down between them and Performaxx Labs
performaxx had their massmax product tested and found to be bunk as far as the ecdy content- i was foolish enough prior to have bought a few bottles
 
sns8778

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then assume china or something else questionable
I wouldn't automatically assume that is why the company didn't reply back about their raw material source.
(I'm not defending them bc I don't work with that company or know them; I'm just explaining in general).

There are a variety of other reasons that companies may not want to answer that. Examples include:
  • A company may not necessarily take asking for a raw material source as asking for a country of origin. They could have thought they were being asked for the raw material supplier information; and if so, its completely understandable why they may not want to provide it.
  • They may not do their own raw material sourcing. They may rely on the contract manufacturer that they use for the project. Or they may use an outside party to handle raw material sourcing for them. That's not necessarily a bad thing IF the person doing it knows what they are doing.
  • They may know that if they are honest, a person would jump to an assumption - for example, assuming its bad just because it comes from China; which is not always accurate in this industry.
Now again, I'm not defending anyone in particular here because there are definitely some issues with these particular types of materials. Here are some of the big ones:
  • There are just simply different grades and percentage extracts of Arjuna Turkestanica.
  • There are different testing methods. The exact same raw material can test out completely differently depending on the testing method.
  • There are different active constituents that can be tested for. For example, some Turkesterone products just say extract; others say Arjuna Turkestanica and then list a % of Turkesterone; and others will list Arjuna Turkestanica and then say something like - standardized for ___% Phytoecdysteroids. Key point - they list the family of Phytoecdysteroids, not the amount of Turkesterone. So even though this number as in % is much higher, the actual amount of Turkesterone may be much lower or non-existent.
And as with a lot of things, especially items that get popular quick like this, there are a lot of raw material suppliers and 'companies' that are just trying to get them out and make a quick buck and don't even care about the quality at all.

So overall, there are a lot of factors that can affect the finished product quality.
 
sns8778

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then assume china or something else questionable
There a good legitimate Chinese vendors just as there are bad ones.

For some reason, people like to down Chinese quality on raw materials, but a lot of that depends on who the companies choose to deal with. There are plenty of great Chinese raw material suppliers out there but there are also plenty of people selling on Alibaba that may be operating out of their basement for all we know.

Also, many of the legitimate Chinese suppliers also buy raw materials from other parts of the world in bulk and then resell them to other countries like the US.
 

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