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To SERM or not to SERM

Is a SERM nessesary for an Epi-clone cycle?

  • Yes, a SERM is always nessecaery! Dumb@ss!!

    Votes: 112 33.9%

  • Not always necessary. But have one on hand.

    Votes: 137 41.5%

  • I didn't use one and I recovered just fine!

    Votes: 56 17.0%

  • I don't like SERMs because of the sides.

    Votes: 17 5.2%

  • I didn't use a SERM and now I'm Fcuked!!

    Votes: 17 5.2%
  • Total voters
    330
i did a three week cycle of m1T with 6oxo as my PCT. less then a month later my bloodwork indicated that not only were my creatinine levels through the roof but that my thyroid was shot.
USE A SERM!!! YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE THAT'S GONNA LOSE IF YOU DON'T!!!
 
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i did a three week cycle of m1T with 6oxo as my PCT. less then a month later my bloodwork indicated that not only were my creatinine levels through the roof but that my thyroid was shot.
USE A SERM!!! YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE THAT'S GONNA LOSE IF YOU DON'T!!!
 
poopypants said:
I think its most definately a requirement, just casue Epi has SERM like efects does not make it the same as an all out SERM. Who knows if its effects wane off slowly or if the dive there after and can cause a rebound (I do think its effects last like a week after stopping but who knows how fast it drops off after that). Its always better safe then sorry, I have been able to actually gain in my Epi PCT, sich is usually unheard of in any PCT. I attribute it to the comprehensive PCT ran INCLUDING TOREM A SERM! So kudos on polling this, hopefully others who are tring to skim by with less for their PCT will catch this and reverse their line of thinking.
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just wondering? how did you cycle the epi? and what did you PCT look like? also, what serm did you use? Nolva? and how much of it?
 
To SERM ..... not to SERM..... damn there are so many confusing posts for newbies! What are the best options besides Liquid Nolva Tamoxifen Citrate and clomid. Also what are the legal options and what is the best way not to get scammed?
 
Kenneth3x said:
To SERM ..... not to SERM..... damn there are so many confusing posts for newbies! What are the best options besides Liquid Nolva Tamoxifen Citrate and clomid. Also what are the legal options and what is the best way not to get scammed?
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I am right there with ya man. I am a NOOB to this as well, to the ph/steroid scene that is. I am planning a H-drol cycle, my first of this nature ever and have a decent pre/cycle/PCT planned (you can check my "H-drol advice please" post, lol) but I am still a bit confused on the SERM bit. Legal options? Scams? And what not..... hmmm, my research shall continue....
 
And imagine the poor bastards that just pop this stuff without any clue as to what it is...wow. I am sooo glad I have researched all of this before jumping the gun, and I am still getting it all together.
 
Hey guys. I just joined today and have been considering getting Spawn but see all the gyno posts throughout the site and of course am concerned. When you guys talk about estrogen blockers and Serm, what products do you recommend? I want to minimize any effects. Would something like Leukic work with it to block?
 
I think it's necessary if your health is a major priority. For me, the question is not weather or not to use a SERM, but which SERM to use and at what dosages. Just like steroids, all the differing levels of potency and variables regarding side effects must be taken into consideration. What swayys my decision to use a SERM the most is the fact that they've proven themselves on paper and in the real world; Plus, since they are Rx medications, their manufacturing process is much more controlled and reliable, unlike OTC alternatives, where product dosages as well as ingredient profiles can vary significantly with what's on the label vs. what's actually in the bottle, and purity standards aren't nearly as up to par.
Furthermore, some serms (namely tamoxifen) are cheaper than the OTC options anyway! If you're one of the people who won't use SERMS due to legalities:
1. Strange how some people will use fear of the law as reason not to buy SERMS, but it didn't stop them from getting their schedule 3 steroids.
2. The legality of SERM purchase in the United states may not be as worrisome as you think. I will say here though as I did in the link I am about to provide, please be wise do your own research and don't make any final decisions based upon what NW over at AM
said. :)
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EasyEJL said:
as a quick comment on the rep thing, I was selected as a rep by AN because I was already doing the sort of things here that they wanted a rep for. Being honest, trying to help out, etc. Learn Teach Lead like it says on the anabolic minds logo :) I was told not to change what I do as well. So I do suggest where it fits an AN product, but have no problems suggesting someone elses product too, even directly competitive ones if they are effective.

As far as SERM vs no SERM goes, the problem is that it isn't cut and dried. For one thing, there is the huge difference in all the compounds. Halodrol-50 vs M1T is a huuuuuuge difference. Secondly, so much is about personal chemistry. If you talk to any of the doctors who treat these sorts of things, you'd be doing blood tests before cycle, right at end, and then every week during PCT. And you'd make adjustments to what you were doing based on progress.

A person who starts with low testosterone, high LH, normal SHBG and high estrogen to begin with will have different PCT needs after the exact same cycle as someone with high test, low LH, low SHBG and low estrogen.....
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well said sir.........
 
Can someone please tell me of a reputable place where I can buy a serm (Tamoxifen Citrate)? I will be doing my cycle soon but this is the only thing holding me up.
Thanks.
 
Schism said:
Your words are wise and true, as usual Easy. Thanks.
I wish the issue was cut and dry, it would be allot easier to plan out a decent pct. I suppose the smartest thing to do is get everything together (if you can afford it) and have it on hand, whether or not you end up using everything. Do you agree with this thinking?
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yup.......... more is not always better.
 
why would you not be able to buy some OTC supplements comparable to a Serm or its affects. If the manufactures know the side effects of the prohormones and products they are selling, it would only make sense in a marketing point that they create a PCT product like a serm or sort, instead of buying some illegal product on the internet. I figured they would sell an otc product to combat gyno, they probably would make more money, sell more products and be more reliable.
Just my thought
 
hundahunta said:
why would you not be able to buy some OTC supplements comparable to a Serm or its affects. If the manufactures know the side effects of the prohormones and products they are selling, it would only make sense in a marketing point that they create a PCT product like a serm or sort, instead of buying some illegal product on the internet. I figured they would sell an otc product to combat gyno, they probably would make more money, sell more products and be more reliable.
Just my thought
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A precurser to a SERM, jut like how PH's work would be genius if it was possible. But ya know SERMs can be gotten easily in a legit manner if ones knows the process.
 
hundahunta said:
why would you not be able to buy some OTC supplements comparable to a Serm or its affects. If the manufactures know the side effects of the prohormones and products they are selling, it would only make sense in a marketing point that they create a PCT product like a serm or sort, instead of buying some illegal product on the internet. I figured they would sell an otc product to combat gyno, they probably would make more money, sell more products and be more reliable.
Just my thought
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I know eh, I have thought about this so many times. Living up here in Canada it is a lot tougher to get research chemicals.
I'm so surprised one of these brain child chemists that come up with these highly anabolic compounds have not came up with a methyl serm or something along those lines... seems strange so there's gotta be a lot more to it than that!
 
monsterbox said:
nolva made me feel worse than havoc. My sex drive was unbelieveably low on nolva.
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How do you know it was the nolva?I'm still wondering about my sex drive being zapped for months after Sdrol.Was it just the Sdrol or too much ATD, AIs, Nolva or what.I got real nuts worrying about gyno so went overboard with PCT.Well eventually sex drive was fine and no gyno thank God.
 
Hello folks, I am two weeks into my M-drol cycle and would like to ask when it's time for my PCT, when should I take my dosages? I have Tamo (Nolvadex) at 10g per tablet, Restore by ALRI and tribulus at 1gram per tablet.

I plan on taking 4 Tamos each day which is recommended. The question is can I take the Tamo with restore and tribuls at the same time? From the intructions on Restore it reads to take one tab of restore 3 times a day. How much tribulous should I take? Should I stick the the 1g twice a day or bump it up to 3g a day?
 
why not take the SERM if you can prevent any negative sides of an estrogen rebound BEFORE they happen as opposed to when you see the first signs of gyno. small moobs are still moobs. also, if the concern is that the SERMs are harsh on the body, take something like Post Cycle Support from Anabolic Innovations (you should be taking something similar like Cycle Support from Anabolic Innovations) and this should take care of your lipids, blood pressure and liver toxicity for the length of the cycle.
 
I'm gonna use a serm with my epi run in Nov. I don't want boobies!!!
 
poopypants said:
JMO but why NOT run a SERM???

even if its not "neccesary" to actually get back to norm youll most definately do so faster and be more capable of maintaing gains! Its no worse on your body then the cycle you just finished and you should be taking ancilleries for that crap anyways.

If I bust my ass and go through the trouble of running a cycle to get those precious pounds then I go 10X more all out with my post cycle therapy to maintain those gains... and possibly improve on them! Im the biggest advocate of overdoing it on post cycle therapy hitting every possible angle I can with as many possible supps as I can that arent redundant to make sure I dont skip a beat after a cycle and wont do it any other way, the one time I didnt use a serm I GOT GYNO... F that shiiit.
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how did you recover from your gyno? Did you do surgery?
 
i got a quick question:


I just started my PCT after a cycle of AMS 1-Andro, 4-AD and DecaVol. For PCT i am taking Torem 90/60/30/30, 4 caps of Arom-X from AMS and have a few days left on both 6-OXO and Stoked! as i experienced puffy nips and all around bloating during cycle, starting about halfway through week 3.

my question is, I have been taking the Torem for 3 days now, and I get prickly sensations under my nipples. is this the Torem binding to the estrogen receptors or gyno starting to flare up. I have a tiny bit of pre existing gyno from puberty and i want to make sure that it doesnt get any worse.

will torem do the trick or should i get some Nolva/Tamox Citrate?
 
Pemmican said:
why not take the SERM if you can prevent any negative sides of an estrogen rebound BEFORE they happen as opposed to when you see the first signs of gyno. small moobs are still moobs. also, if the concern is that the SERMs are harsh on the body, take something like Post Cycle Support from Anabolic Innovations (you should be taking something similar like Cycle Support from Anabolic Innovations) and this should take care of your lipids, blood pressure and liver toxicity for the length of the cycle.
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dude, AIs prevent the rebound.

A SERM will keep circulating estrogen in the body and it wont stop natural androgens that are rising to aromatize to estrogens, so this will leave flowing estrogen in the body and when you come off you can have a rebound from that,

i dont believe theres any rebound from steroidal AIs, and its possible that Non steroidal AIs can cause a rebound.
 
crazyfool405 said:
dude, AIs prevent the rebound.

A SERM will keep circulating estrogen in the body and it wont stop natural androgens that are rising to aromatize to estrogens, so this will leave flowing estrogen in the body and when you come off you can have a rebound from that,

i dont believe theres any rebound from steroidal AIs, and its possible that Non steroidal AIs can cause a rebound.
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Sort of. the trick with steroidal AIs is that although there isn't a direct rebound, your estrogen receptors do upregulate themselves when you take estrogen really low and nothing is binding to them for a while. so although the estrogen level may not balloon up, the way it affects you is worse than the blood level might show
 
EasyEJL said:
Sort of. the trick with steroidal AIs is that although there isn't a direct rebound, your estrogen receptors do upregulate themselves when you take estrogen really low and nothing is binding to them for a while. so although the estrogen level may not balloon up, the way it affects you is worse than the blood level might show
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theres no rebound at all when dont the right way.

can u explain what you mean by the bolded
 
well, its the same as with androgen receptors. once you are on cycle for a long time, the receptors get "tired" for lack of better word, and you need a break or sometimes even taking certain other supps to help resensitize the androgen receptors.

All of us have some level of estrogen that is normal. so our receptors are always somewhat dirty, just like our androgen receptors. but by clipping estrogen down to nothing at all those receptors get a chance to clean up, they becomer esensitized so that once aromatase starts to come back and estrogen levels go up, the receptors will have more of it as a % bond effectively to them.
 
EasyEJL said:
well, its the same as with androgen receptors. once you are on cycle for a long time, the receptors get "tired" for lack of better word, and you need a break or sometimes even taking certain other supps to help resensitize the androgen receptors.

All of us have some level of estrogen that is normal. so our receptors are always somewhat dirty, just like our androgen receptors. but by clipping estrogen down to nothing at all those receptors get a chance to clean up, they becomer esensitized so that once aromatase starts to come back and estrogen levels go up, the receptors will have more of it as a % bond effectively to them.
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in order for that to happen with a steroidal AI you need to create NEW aromatase. that bind it does is permanant until new aromatase is formed.

i understand what your saying though. but the serms would do the same thing but in a more specific area, instead of total body aromatase lowering
 
crazyfool405 said:
in order for that to happen with a steroidal AI you need to create NEW aromatase. that bind it does is permanant until new aromatase is formed.

i understand what your saying though. but the serms would do the same thing but in a more specific area, instead of total body aromatase lowering
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but your body does create new aromatase, just nobody knows quite how much how quickly. dsade had talked about funding a study on it if he managed to get the formestane product out and it sold well enough to finance the study
 
Can't nolva and others cause eye problems? I'd hate to go blind more so than having moobs.

Maybe I'm over-reading into things, but that's what searching gets you I suppose.

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waynaferd said:
Can't nolva and others cause eye problems? I'd hate to go blind more so than having moobs.

Maybe I'm over-reading into things, but that's what searching gets you I suppose.

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those problems with your eyes start at really high doses i wouldnt worry about it at all.

and even if raloxfine, clomid and torem are ok to use to. but torem is just upgraded nolva,

Raloxifene would be good IMO
 
i can confirm now that nolvadex does a wonder of **** for making you feel bad.

made me depressed, anxious, and KILLED my libido and i'm sure it was nolvadex...i had the geniune boxed pills from canada.

This go around on havoc I used reversitol and I've never felt better in my life during PCT.
 
I`m going to be doing an ultimate mass cycle by advanse muscle science,it comes with Arom-x as a pct,but i have been advised to get a SERM just in case.

I was advised Clomid or Nolva,i can get my hands on Clomid very easily so if this is a requirement how much do i take and for how long...All info is graetly appreciated,i want to do this properly and smile at the end of it.
 
michael75 said:
I`m going to be doing an ultimate mass cycle by advanse muscle science,it comes with Arom-x as a pct,but i have been advised to get a SERM just in case.

I was advised Clomid or Nolva,i can get my hands on Clomid very easily so if this is a requirement how much do i take and for how long...All info is graetly appreciated,i want to do this properly and smile at the end of it.
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4 weeks 100/50/50/50
 
SERM all the way. (I am a fan of AI's but think that they are overkill for an epi cycle)

I love when people complain the SERM made them feel like ****. If you think an SERM makes you feel like **** run a cycle with no PCT and see how you feel. Being shut down is what makes you feel like **** not the SERM.
 
NOLVADEX MAKES ME FEEL LIKE SH*T

and yes it is the nolvadex. I actually ran it solo for 2 days and felt my libido crash through the ocean floor. My libido is so terrible on nolvadex that I'd rather not even run a cycle of anything.

Took havoc again with higher dosages and used Reversitol for PCT and felt Amazing throughout PCT starting day 1. Kept almost all of the gains and strength/libido went up.

NEVER EVER touch nolvadex unless you ABSOLUTELY need it imo.

I too would feel much much safer using a SERM during PCT with something strong like Pheraplex...I'm planning a pheraplex cycle next but am afraid too run it because I'd have to use a SERM and I hate the libido loss....again its not from low test, its from the serm being an artificial estrogen with side effects.

Toremifene looks to be much better, however the compound just has a chloro added to it...I dont see how this could change its side effects besides liver toxicity...its so similar?
 
monsterbox said:
NOLVADEX MAKES ME FEEL LIKE SH*T

and yes it is the nolvadex. I actually ran it solo for 2 days and felt my libido crash through the ocean floor. My libido is so terrible on nolvadex that I'd rather not even run a cycle of anything.

Took havoc again with higher dosages and used Reversitol for PCT and felt Amazing throughout PCT starting day 1. Kept almost all of the gains and strength/libido went up.

NEVER EVER touch nolvadex unless you ABSOLUTELY need it imo.

I too would feel much much safer using a SERM during PCT with something strong like Pheraplex...I'm planning a pheraplex cycle next but am afraid too run it because I'd have to use a SERM and I hate the libido loss....again its not from low test, its from the serm being an artificial estrogen with side effects.

Toremifene looks to be much better, however the compound just has a chloro added to it...I dont see how this could change its side effects besides liver toxicity...its so similar?
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so try running it with an AI
 
any advice on gettin a good alternative to nolva or clomid for pct for a cycle of epi stacked with possibly else...not sure yet :think: for someone who's in the military? hmmm:think:


would reversitol be sufficient??
 
test toremifene by itself..all i can say is it blows nolvadex out of the water. No mood swings and upped libido for once
 
Anyone here tried Life support by Anabolic Innovations? I'm thinking of keeping the toremefine dosage at 60 mg for my pct. I've got mine from a pharmacy (went through U.K customs no problem lol) and kind of thought to myself if they're recommending 60 mg a day for a woman with cancer, surely 120 is a little overkill? Although I read ''Lethality was observed in rats following single oral doses that were ≥ 1000 mg/kg (about 150 times the recommended human dose on a mg/m2 basis) '' From what I've read if you're particularly unfortunate this drug can be life threatening even at 60, if you have a terrible reaction?
 
I ran a 30/30/30 cycle of M-drol with no PCt only a bottle of Trib. I had a little gyno flare up for lik 2 weeks before subsiding i lost bout 10lbs of my major lifts had very good blood pressure and im not sure bout cholesterol but def no libido probs
 
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