To SERM or not to SERM

[glipp]

Hey thanks everyone. I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. I had planned to use basic supps following the cycle ie: creatine, L- Glutamine, BCAA's (probably use these on cycle), I just figured these were givens, but maybe not, should have mentioned them, also use Cissus Bulk Powder throughout cycle. I am a regular user of Powerfull and will probably throw this in in PCT as well. Thanks for the pslin and AP suggestions. I will check this out. I am definitely trying to do my research, and I am enjoying this thread because, as I think you are trying to point out in this thread, this is our health on the line here.

 

[poopypants]

Hey thanks everyone. I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. I had planned to use basic supps following the cycle ie: creatine, L- Glutamine, BCAA's (probably use these on cycle), I just figured these were givens, but maybe not, should have mentioned them, also use Cissus Bulk Powder throughout cycle. I am a regular user of Powerfull and will probably throw this in in post cycle therapy as well. Thanks for the pslin and AP suggestions. I will check this out. I am definitely trying to do my research, and I am enjoying this thread because, as I think you are trying to point out in this thread, this is our health on the line here.

Here check out this thread, its very informative and impressive as well.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[glipp]

Here check out this thread, its very informative and impressive as well.

Invalid Link Removed

Checked it out and it does look impressive. I will have to consider this for my PCT. Thanks.

 

[Ziquor]

I'm starting my log soon and I got CEE, Beta-A, Nitrix & Mass FX to start during my pct (along with serms and other proper pct stuff of course). I'm paranoid about losing anything after working as hard as that. I added the Mass FX ala Poopypants log. Can Mass FX mess with your test production or is it considered 'natural'? I never found anything regarding this specifically.

 

[Trauma1]

I'm starting my log soon and I got CEE, Beta-A, Nitrix & Mass FX to start during my post cycle therapy (along with serms and other proper post cycle therapy stuff of course). I'm paranoid about losing anything after working as hard as that. I added the Mass FX ala Poopypants log. Can Mass FX mess with your test production or is it considered 'natural'? I never found anything regarding this specifically.

Mass FX frees up test by blocking SHBG. It's not suppressive of natural test levels. Are you running Hyperdrol X-2 with it. I say that because when you free up that test its subjective to aromatiziation at that point.

 

[Ziquor]

Mass FX frees up test by blocking SHBG. It's not suppressive of natural test levels. Are you running Hyperdrol X-2 with it. I say that because when you free up that test its subjective to aromatiziation at that point.

I didn't plan on it - I'm really glad you mentioned this because I seen everyone that's used MFX use HDx2 too but with no mention as to why & I was wondering. So would it be fair to say any AI will be cool with MFX?

 

[Trauma1]

I didn't plan on it - I'm really glad you mentioned this because I seen everyone that's used MFX use HDx2 too but with no mention as to why & I was wondering. So would it be fair to say any AI will be cool with MFX?

Yes. Get you some Hyperdrol X2 and you'll be good to go!

 

[Behemoth1]

I did a 6 week pulse of epistane without a serm. dosed every other day:

10,20,20,20
20,20,20
30,30,30,30
30,30,30
40,40,40,40
40,40,40


definately not one of my smarter decisions in life but luckily i did not notice any gyno side effects however I will be the first to tell you that when i ramped it up to 40mg Insomnia was a mother f'er. all i used for pct was novedex xt. once again, not one of my smarter decision but atleast all is well thus far. I put on 8 pounds lost maybe 3 or 4. I'm gonna run a m-drol cycle probably sometime in may where i will use nolvadex at 40,40,20,20.

 

[Cub]

I did a 6 week pulse of epistane without a serm. dosed every other day:

10,20,20,20
20,20,20
30,30,30,30
30,30,30
40,40,40,40
40,40,40


definately not one of my smarter decisions in life but luckily i did not notice any gyno side effects however I will be the first to tell you that when i ramped it up to 40mg Insomnia was a mother f'er. all i used for post cycle therapy was novedex xt. once again, not one of my smarter decision but atleast all is well thus far. I put on 8 pounds lost maybe 3 or 4. I'm gonna run a m-drol cycle probably sometime in may where i will use nolvadex at 40,40,20,20.

Why wasn't it one of your smarter decisions? You made gains with minimal sides. Get a blood test and see that everything is in order.

 

[Chad]

JMO but why NOT run a SERM???

even if its not "neccesary" to actually get back to norm youll most definately do so faster and be more capable of maintaing gains! Its no worse on your body then the cycle you just finished and you should be taking ancilleries for that crap anyways.

If I bust my ass and go through the trouble of running a cycle to get those precious pounds then I go 10X more all out with my post cycle therapy to maintain those gains... and possibly improve on them! Im the biggest advocate of overdoing it on post cycle therapy hitting every possible angle I can with as many possible supps as I can that arent redundant to make sure I dont skip a beat after a cycle and wont do it any other way, the one time I didnt use a serm I GOT GYNO... F that shiiit.

agreed.

 

[Behemoth1]

Why wasn't it one of your smarter decisions? You made gains with minimal sides. Get a blood test and see that everything is in order.

true but i just got lucky. should have had a serm but all is well. I'm definately gonna get a blood test done before i do another cycle.

 

[Schism]

true but i just got lucky. should have had a serm but all is well. I'm definately gonna get a blood test done before i do another cycle.

Isn't that the whole reason for pulsing though. Not to have to eat the serms ? What if any sides did you experience?

 

[slow-mun]

Hey Poopy. When I mentioned the above it was aimed sorta toward a specific someone, but not you in any way whatsoever. You seem to really know what your talkin about & have the experience to back it as well. But I believe it's somewhat true about certain people caring about the $$$ more so than what happens to peoples health. Even if not reps there are many people here on AM that do work for, and in some cases have ownership in, supplement companys.

I have a strong WTF for you and Schism. Much like your assumptions about Epistane and DMT, you two are about just as clueless in regards to supplement companies and their representatives. FWIW, most reps get picked up by companies, b/c of their supplement knowledge and reputation. We usually only get a few free supplements a month, if that. Our opinions also almost never reflect those of our comnpanies, so quit trying to blame a supplement company for their reps pwning you two. If you really have such a distrust for the supplement industry and like to create controversial threads with little merit, then there are better forums for you two to frequent. I can't believe that you two were too timid to bring this into the other thread. BTW, it helps to know what you're talking about when entering an arguement. Just a little tip for you two.

 

[Schism]

I have a strong WTF for you and Schism. Much like your assumptions about Epistane and DMT, you two are about just as clueless in regards to supplement companies and their representatives. FWIW, most reps get picked up by companies, b/c of their supplement knowledge and reputation. We usually only get a few free supplements a month, if that. Our opinions also almost never reflect those of our comnpanies, so quit trying to blame a supplement company for their reps pwning you two. If you really have such a distrust for the supplement industry and like to create controversial threads with little merit, then there are better forums for you two to frequent. I can't believe that you two were too timid to bring this into the other thread. BTW, it helps to know what you're talking about when entering an arguement. Just a little tip for you two.

To timid? Wow that's pretty tough E-talk, slow. It seems like you have a vendetta of some sort for me and I'm not sure exactly why. In my last thread I was the bigger man and apologize to you for our quarrels. At this point it seems that all your doing bro is following me around like some sort of gay stalker and trying to start fights. If you don't like me than feel free to keep your distance. I find your confrontational posts offensive and of an ill nature so respectfully find someone else to take your anger problems out on. Thanx...........

 

[slow-mun]

To timid? Wow that's pretty tough E-talk, slow. It seems like you have a vendetta of some sort for me and I'm not sure exactly why. In my last thread I was the bigger man and apologize to you for our quarrels. At this point it seems that all your doing bro is following me around like some sort of gay stalker and trying to start fights. If you don't like me than feel free to keep your distance. I find your confrontational posts offensive and of an ill nature so respectfully find someone else to take your anger problems out on. Thanx...........

Aren't you the guy that threatened to beat me up if we ever met? I just don't like you or your partner's posts. You two should definitely be reading more and posting less. Case closed.........

 

[Schism]

Some people have nothing better to do. So sad!

Aren't you the guy that threatened to beat me up if we ever met? I just don't like you or your partner's posts. You two should definitely be reading more and posting less. Case closed.........

I didn't threaten to beat you up! I merely asked if you would like to insult me in person? Which I even then apologized for later! Bottom line I don't want to waste my time fighting with someone online. I find no satisfaction in this so I guess I'll give you the last word in hopes that you will go away. So go ahead, your turn bad@ss................................

 

[ALUISLUGO]

I didn't threaten to beat you up! I merely asked if you would like to insult me in person? Which I even then apologized for later! Bottom line I don't want to waste my time fighting with someone online. I find no satisfaction in this so I guess I'll give you the last word in hopes that you will go away. So go ahead, your turn bad@ss................................

Invalid Link Removed...lol!

 

[Schism]

Haha, no sh!t that's hilarious brother!

 

[Behemoth1]

Isn't that the whole reason for pulsing though. Not to have to eat the serms ? What if any sides did you experience?

Only side effect I noticed is that once i got up to 40mg of epistane Insomnia hit me pretty bad. 2am to 4am is usually how long i was awake till. It kinda sucked, other than that it was a successful cycle.

 

[Eagleman003]

NO SERM!!!!!!!!!!! I did Epistane at 30/30/40/40/50 gained around 6 lbs and took the OTC PCT Method.

Post Cycle Support by AI - 5/4/4/3 (caps)
6-oxo by Ergopharm - 600/600/400/200 (mg)
Tribulus - 1-2 grams a day
Retain2 - 3 caps a day for 30 days

Strength went up in PCT and I lost almost NO size what-so-ever. Libido is better then before, nuts are big, no gyno (knock on wood). I have done SERM and OTC PCT before and I prefer OTC PCT, and I urge you to take this route, but if you can have a SERM on hand, although you wont need it.

The ONLY KEY to not losing Size in your PCT is to keep the overload you had on your muscles constant during your PCT. A decrease in overload will mean a decrease in size. Dont decrease your weights or intensity if you feel you can handle it without overtraining. Also you need to eat a lot and gain some fat in your PCT in order to maintain your gains.

flames please?

 

[Behemoth1]

definately would not advise people goin up to 50 on epistane. sucks that you only gained 6pounds at that too lol. people gain more than that on 30mg pulses probably not your fault though

 

[EasyEJL]

as a quick comment on the rep thing, I was selected as a rep by AN because I was already doing the sort of things here that they wanted a rep for. Being honest, trying to help out, etc. Learn Teach Lead like it says on the anabolic minds logo I was told not to change what I do as well. So I do suggest where it fits an AN product, but have no problems suggesting someone elses product too, even directly competitive ones if they are effective.

As far as SERM vs no SERM goes, the problem is that it isn't cut and dried. For one thing, there is the huge difference in all the compounds. Halodrol-50 vs M1T is a huuuuuuge difference. Secondly, so much is about personal chemistry. If you talk to any of the doctors who treat these sorts of things, you'd be doing blood tests before cycle, right at end, and then every week during PCT. And you'd make adjustments to what you were doing based on progress.

A person who starts with low testosterone, high LH, normal SHBG and high estrogen to begin with will have different PCT needs after the exact same cycle as someone with high test, low LH, low SHBG and low estrogen.....

 

[Schism]

Your words are wise and true, as usual Easy. Thanks.
I wish the issue was cut and dry, it would be allot easier to plan out a decent pct. I suppose the smartest thing to do is get everything together (if you can afford it) and have it on hand, whether or not you end up using everything. Do you agree with this thinking?

 

[EasyEJL]

thats basically the smartest move. Have nolva, torem, cabergoline (if something likely to have prolactin issues) handy, take p-5-p thru the cycle. plan on the pct being a test booster, possibly an AI after the first week, plus staple type things like creatine, beta alanine, etc. If you have significant shrinkage, loss of libido, etc you may choose to use the SERMs in pct, but not feel like you have to. a low dose SERM isn't a bad idea either. 10mg of nolva a day is a pretty inexpensive insurance policy against gyno.

I guess that as well is important as a distinction, there is gyno prevention and HTPA restoration, and both have different needs + supps that help more. Most of the SERMs don't do a ton on their own on full HTPA restoration, but they may raise LH enough that testicular shrinkage reverses

 

[Schism]

thats basically the smartest move. Have nolva, torem, cabergoline (if something likely to have prolactin issues) handy, take p-5-p thru the cycle. plan on the post cycle therapy being a test booster, possibly an AI after the first week, plus staple type things like creatine, beta alanine, etc. If you have significant shrinkage, loss of libido, etc you may choose to use the SERMs in post cycle therapy, but not feel like you have to. a low dose SERM isn't a bad idea either. 10mg of nolva a day is a pretty inexpensive insurance policy against gyno.

I guess that as well is important as a distinction, there is gyno prevention and HTPA restoration, and both have different needs + supps that help more. Most of the SERMs don't do a ton on their own on full HTPA restoration, but they may raise LH enough that testicular shrinkage reverses

A knowledgeable responce once again. Thank you.
If I may, what would you suggest for a pct from a 4 week pulse of superdrol? The more I read the more I'm begin to be concerned about prolactin. I'm starting to think this could be the culprit for the delayed gyno people are experiencing.
My dosing will be as follows:
week 1. 10mgs m,w,f
week 2. 20mgs m,w,f
weeks 3-4 only going up to 30mgs if needed
Not sure what kind of test booster/AI to run on off days yet either. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated brother. Thank you again.

 

[EasyEJL]

i'd suggest just 200mg of p-5-p a day thru cycle, and maybe go 300mg/day if you want in PCT. that should cover it so long as no prolactin symptoms show. if they do show, bumping it to 600mg for a week should kill it.

hyperdrol x2 seems like a good choice for off days.

 

[Schism]

Thanks Easy, I'll do that. For my pct I'll probably run a low dose of nolva for 2 weeks. Maybe 20,10 ed and see how the boys are. Or should I go for longer?
I'm kind of paranoid about using the research chems though because of reports of bad analysis. And it seems most of the reports I've seen were people had gyno months down the road they always used nola stand-alone or nolva/atd. The later I would not trust anyways with all the atd hate going around out there.
I'm looking at using the AX nha stack as the bases for my pct along with the nolva and the p-5-p. How's that look to you? Over kill?

 

[EasyEJL]

or use torem instead of nolva, that way you can at least somewhat separate yourself from the same scenarios that may have created gyno.

I'd still say 3-4 weeks, because you are looking for gyno protection while your body is stabilizing. On a pulse I guess it might not matter so much tho, maybe 2 is ok. Again, its mostly important to have it onhand in case all hell breaks loose Actually at your dosing your suppression should be minimal. If you do just 20 weeks 3+4, i'd estimate gains to be about 1-1.5lbs a week, for 4-6lbs.

you could also try to wade thru the mass of online pharmacies and find one that will either sell without a script, or write one for you, and get regular nolva or torem tabs.


There is nothing wrong as far as (with non hormonals) having a big PCT stack. if you can manage to continue gains into PCT its better than having losses

 

[Schism]

Nice, man. Good idea with the torm. I had originally tried to go through an online pharmacy but gave up after a few days. I guess I'll give it a go again and see what I can come up with.
If you think all I'll gain at that dose is 4-6lbs I'm going to have to reevaluate some things. Actually I'll just have to up the dose or do a 4-a week and just run a full pct. I've seen guys gain a good 10+ lbs on a four a week so I'll consider that. Because really to only gain 4-6lbs, to put my body through that and spend well over $200 would just be a waste IMO.
I also have phera and epi but decided to go with super to keep the cycle length short and still get some good gains.

 

[EasyEJL]

its just that from what i've seen, superdrol is good for near a pound for every 40-60mg you take. so a 4 week @ 30 a day regular cycle is good for somewhere between 14-21lbs. You'd only be hitting 60mg a week with 20mg 3x. There are people it works better for, but thats the #s I would use for estimate. 6 lean pounds in a month with no sides is not bad either really. if you did 30 weeks 3 + 4, you could add an extra couple pounds. Still 10lbs on a 4 week pulse is looking for a lot. maybe on a 6 week pulse.

 

[Schism]

Sweet thanks for the advise as always brother. When I'm up and running with this I'll probably log it or at least post my results with before and after pics. Just what the world needs more superdrol logs!! lol.........

 

[Cub]

Sweet thanks for the advise as always brother. When I'm up and running with this I'll probably log it or at least post my results with before and after pics. Just what the world needs more superdrol logs!! lol.........

That's what i was thinking! I started one with heaps of detail but then realised that nobody gave a **** so I deleted it.

 

[smc252]

Understanding the HPTA and endocrinology, a SERM is very useful in restoring natural test levels.

Not only does it block estradiol from the breast tissue, preventing gynecomastia, but it also blocks estrogen from interfering with your hypo/pituitary. Remember that estrogen is a big part of the feeback loop, and will blunt GnRH and thus LH/FSH... big time.

Sure you can recover w/o a SERM, but why not use something that has such benefits?

 

[arizonanewbie]

rock and hard place

Thanks guys for all the great info. Here's the rub for me - I can't risk the legal consequences of buying Nolva or Torem online. It would quite honestly end my career. So what other options are there besides going the OTC route?

BTW, I do live close to the border, but the Mexican solution is prolly just as dangerous and the online solution, verdad?

 

[Schism]

Thanks guys for all the great info. Here's the rub for me - I can't risk the legal consequences of buying Nolva or Torem online. It would quite honestly end my career. So what other options are there besides going the OTC route?

BTW, I do live close to the border, but the Mexican solution is prolly just as dangerous and the online solution, verdad?

Dude this is like the 4th thread I've seen you in asking the same question!!! So let me give you the run down one last time before you piss me the fcuk off!!! Here are your options
1.Serm
2.OTC pct
3.There is no third option!! What are you looking for??!!!???

I hope that's easy enough for you to compute..........

 

[EasyEJL]

Theres the option of "Don't do any substances that require a PCT"

 

[Schism]

Theres the option of "Don't do any substances that require a post cycle therapy"

Haha, true......And I hate to be a d!ck, but come on this dude's even PM'd me asking about this!!

 

[arizonanewbie]

Srry

Sorry Schis and others, I know I've been like a 4 year old with this, its just that I'm brand new to PHs and I'm trying to be absolutely sure about my options. I appreciate the info you've given and I won't bother you again about it. I'll sit quietly and listen.

 

[EasyEJL]

Honestly AZ, you could probably do a cycle of MassFX and Hyperdrol X2 and get about the same grade of gains as with halo, and by the time you removed the cost of support supplements and PCT, it would be cheaper to do the massfx combo too

 

[arizonanewbie]

thx

Thanks, EZ. I'll look into that! There does seem to be something more attractive about not having to get a scrip med to PCT from an OTC PH like Havoc. I'll look around on here for logs from the MassFX stack.

 

[Schism]

Sorry Schis and others, I know I've been like a 4 year old with this, its just that I'm brand new to PHs and I'm trying to be absolutely sure about my options. I appreciate the info you've given and I won't bother you again about it. I'll sit quietly and listen.

Aw, your good dawg, it's just you got 2 options and you know what they are. So the next step is to decide what will be best for you. People run ph's all the time with otc pct or no pct at all!! Is that smart, hell no! Does that stop anyone from doing it, not really. I think the best thing for you to do would either be a.( do some more research and come to an educated decision on your own, or b.( try something that doesn't require a pct.
Remember if you just started lifting a few years ago you should be able to gain lbs easily by tweaking your diet, routine ext. I myself gained over a lean 30lbs in three years ALL NATURALY by doing what I just stated. So it's very much a reality but it's not going to happen on accident. Your going to have to put so serious blood and sweat into it. Not to mention constantly force feeding yourself clean foods. So there's alot that goes into this game, no "magic" pill is going to get you to wherever it is you want to be. And just a heads up, if you take a ph's, steroid whatever and your training and diet is sh!t, the minimal gains you'll see will all be gone after you stop use anyway. So just something to think about...good luck bro.

 

[arizonanewbie]

good deal

Thanks Schiz! I just got my Havoc in the mail but I'm gonna hold off on it until I feel like I've hit a real plateau and I need it. Until then I'll B.S.T it with good diet and commitment. Maybe I'll try the MassFX stack mentioned earlier too.

Are you gonna get to spend the summer in the W. Mountains or do you have to come back and sweat the heat?

 

[Schism]

Thanks Schiz! I just got my Havoc in the mail but I'm gonna hold off on it until I feel like I've hit a real plateau and I need it. Until then I'll B.S.T it with good diet and commitment. Maybe I'll try the MassFX stack mentioned earlier too.

Are you gonna get to spend the summer in the W. Mountains or do you have to come back and sweat the heat?

That sound's like a solid decision for you, for now at least. Once you get some more experience I think you'll have less problems, and better results with it anyways. I make solid gains off the basics: protein, creatine, nos, fish oil, multi-vit, buckets of water and pounds of food.

As for this summer I don't know where the hell I'll be. I actually just got out of the electricians UNION so I might be going down to pheonix this summer to go through this hvac program, more money less danger! What about you, what do you do down there, (besides workout obviously)?

 

[arizonanewbie]

fish oil?

PMed you.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm taking creatine and a multi and I was taking DHEA and Trib for a while. I've made pretty good gains so far and as I clean up my diet even more, I know they'll get better.

You'll have to pardon my ignorance, but what is the purpose of fish oil?

 

[arizonanewbie]

Don't answer that

I'm sorry, I just found a thread on it. No need to waste your time explaining it - I should have checked before asking you to write me a lesson. I'm still new to this whole internet forum bit.

 

[Schism]

I'm sorry, I just found a thread on it. No need to waste your time explaining it - I should have checked before asking you to write me a lesson. I'm still new to this whole internet forum bit.

Haha I don't mind bro!! But since you already read up on it you know it's a great addition to your supp regiment. It has so many benefits from heart heath to fat loss and joint support that it's a must IMO. I usually just get mine at like Walgreen's when there having a BOGO sale. The stuffs so cheap for what it does that it's well worth the 4-5bucks anyways. Also another cheap supp that really works is Green Tea extract. It's become a staple for me in fact the only supps I take on a regular basis are fish oils, green tea, a strong multi-vit and protein. The other stuff has a minimal impact IMO.

 

[Indiana Jones]

I hear a lot of people say make sure you have a SERM on hand, but how do you know if you need it or not ? Does the Gyno have to start ?

 

[EasyEJL]

if you are taking something mild like halo or maybe epi, and didn't plan to use the serm in pct then having it there in case gyno begins is the main reason

 

[ValorOfOne]

if you are taking something mild like halo or maybe epi, and didn't plan to use the serm in pct then having it there in case gyno begins is the main reason

I agree.

(Non related to qoute.)


-----------

In my opinion.. Most PS/PH cycles can be ran safely without the use of a Serm. This takes proper planning and knowledge. Though this does not mean you can neglect the use of a serm if the need does arise. Furthermore, I believe it goes without saying that a Serm is an intregal part in any PCT. Though it isn't nessessarily needed in all situations. It is used to speed recovery rather then guarentee recovery.

My 0.02.

Disagree, agree. Hate me, regardless. Its nothing but my opinion.

 

[bound]

In my opinion.. Most PS/PH cycles can be ran safely without the use of a Serm. This takes proper planning and knowledge. Though this does not mean you can neglect the use of a serm if the need does arise. Furthermore, I believe it goes without saying that a Serm is an intregal part in any PCT. Though it isn't nessessarily needed in all situations. It is used to speed recovery rather then guarentee recovery.

My 0.02.

Disagree, agree. Hate me, regardless. Its nothing but my opinion.

I hate you.




Kidding. I'm curious what your PCT would look like without a SERM, then?