Still Bloated after Aromasin (with blood work)

AndrewBarnes

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For a year now I have been bloated (carrying an extra 5-10 pounds of water) and I don't know how to get rid of it. It all started when I tried 250mg of Test-E last year for a month. I didn't dose the AI high enough and developed a small little lump in my right nip. I dropped the Test and bought some Ralox to combat it. Very soon after I tried topical antiandrogens (RU58841, Darolutamide) for hairloss and this caused my gyno to get much worse (puffy nips) and lots of water retention. I stopped using the antiandrogens so I can get rid of the gyno, which I did with Ralox, but the water retention never went away.

My baseline off-cycle with no AI is lean with defined abs and a chiseled face but now I'm carrying a belly of water and my face is swollen. I know it's water and not fat because I took a diuretic (Lasix) and it made my body look how it's supposed to normally look while off-cycle. My diet, water intake, sodium intake, and everything else hasn't changed.

I ran a RAD140 cycle to see if increasing the androgen load in my body will decrease the water retention but it didn't. Right now I'm taking Aromasin 12.5mg 1-2x a week to lower my E2 and this helps to get rid of some water weight but I'm still holding onto water. I ordered some Proviron because I heard it helps but I'm not expecting a miracle since I already ran RAD140 and it didn't do much for the water retention.

I posted my blood work which was done after stopping RAD140 for a week or 2. My cortisol, progesterone, IGF-1, SHBG all seem to be fine. The only thing that stands out to me from my blood work is the high free test. I had bloodwork done before I did any cycles and my free test was 85 pg/mL but right now it's double that at 160 pg/mL. Maybe all the extra free test is causing me to bloat?

Does developing gyno make you permanently bloated? Are my androgen receptors all messed up due to the anti-androgens I took? Is there anything else that would make me retain this much water? Would it be recommended to go see a TRT doc or endocrinologist?
 

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AndrewBarnes

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I think my bloat is caused by high prolactin levels. I will give caber another shot.
 

CroLifter

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Test itself can cause bloat aside from estrogen. It does for me especially in the face.

If I want to look good i have to keep it at 125mg a week.


As far as bloat off cycle look into diet, water intake.
 

CroLifter

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Get out of here troll
He is pointing out the obvious lol. There is no such a thing as being bloated permanently due to having taken finasteride in the past.

Everything points to you being a little on the, ehm, on the plump side 😉
 
AndrewBarnes

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He is pointing out the obvious lol. There is no such a thing as being bloated permanently due to having taken finasteride in the past.

Everything points to you being a little on the, ehm, on the plump side 😉
Your ignorance blows me away. Actually read my post before you say something else that's dumb
 

Mathb33

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Your ignorance blows me away. Actually read my post before you say something else that's dumb
Cro knows much more than you will probably ever will. You’d have to open a book first. I’m not going to debate here with you but anyone here that’s experienced is laughing at your thread. Being bloated for 1 year.. what a fucking joke.
 
CasperKValentine

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Folks here are just being honest, what you are saying doesn't quite add up. Bloated a year later and gyno from only 250mg Test E for a month? Something not right from the get go here. If you think you have a legitimate medical problem I'd recommend starting with your regular dr. Sounds like you shouldn't be running anything else for now.
 
AndrewBarnes

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Folks here are just being honest, what you are saying doesn't quite add up. Bloated a year later and gyno from only 250mg Test E for a month? Something not right from the get go here. If you think you have a legitimate medical problem I'd recommend starting with your regular dr. Sounds like you shouldn't be running anything else for now.
I wasn't bloated a year later, I was bloated for a year.

How does developing gyno (a lump underneath my right nip) from 250mg of test for a month not add up? People develop gyno from only taking finasteride, let alone 250mg of test a week.

My gyno got much worse when I took darolutamide (something you probably know nothing about) and I had gyno ever since then but it's gotten better and worse overtime.

One thing I forgot to include in my post was that I started caber before getting my blood test. This would explain why my prolactin is in the normal range and why my free test is so high. I started caber because my gyno got worse when I came off RAD140 and a little bit (less than a tear drop) of clear liquid comes out of my nip if I squeeze it. I stopped caber because I wanted to see if taking Ralox and Aromasin to decrease estrogen would help my gyno but it didn't. Aromasin helped my bloat go down by about 3 pounds but I'm still bloated. I'm 90% confident that my prolactin levels are high so I started caber back up yesterday (0.5mg twice a week). High prolactin is known to increase fluid retention, which would explain a lot.
 
AndrewBarnes

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Update: I took 0.5 mg of caber on Wednesday and Saturday. Today (monday), my gyno has gotten worse. My nip is lactating so I suspect my prolactin rebounded. I think taking caber everyday instead of only twice a week will help prevent prolactin rebound? I will take 0.125 of caber a day and see what happens.
 
KvanH

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But why are you having high prolactin in the first place? I would see a doctor. Or at the very least confirm high prolactin levels via blood test and if high, see a doctor.
 

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Maybe you just need to go on a diet?
I think this is probably it. Sounds like bodyfat is maybe just a couple percent higher. Sounds like he’s thrown off because the Lasix makes him look leaner. Unless some one is really overweight strong diuretics will make you look leaner and I think he’s not getting that. If he is legit holding water like that it could be a medical condition. Andrew Barnes do you notice your socks leaving an imprint on your ankles?
 

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I think this is probably it. Sounds like bodyfat is maybe just a couple percent higher. Sounds like he’s thrown off because the Lasix makes him look leaner. Unless some one is really overweight strong diuretics will make you look leaner and I think he’s not getting that. If he is legit holding water like that it could be a medical condition. Andrew Barnes do you notice your socks leaving an imprint on your ankles?
In every cases that the answer is we’re a little bit chubbier than we’d like to think, most people don’t want to hear it and will blame anything but That
 
AndrewBarnes

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Cro knows much more than you will probably ever will. You’d have to open a book first. I’m not going to debate here with you but anyone here that’s experienced is laughing at your thread. Being bloated for 1 year.. what a fucking joke.
I spent all this time creating this thread and spent hundreds of dollars on bloodwork just because I was joking? You're retarded
 
AndrewBarnes

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In every cases that the answer is we’re a little bit chubbier than we’d like to think, most people don’t want to hear it and will blame anything but That
Throughout my adult life I weighed at most 175 lbs and had a six pack without even trying. It's very hard for me to put on fat. I would literally have to shove food into my face to the point of puking to gain even a little bit of fat. I'm in a calorie deficit right now and I still don't have defined abs due to the added water. I just don't know why I'm holding onto so much water.
 
AndrewBarnes

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I think this is probably it. Sounds like bodyfat is maybe just a couple percent higher. Sounds like he’s thrown off because the Lasix makes him look leaner. Unless some one is really overweight strong diuretics will make you look leaner and I think he’s not getting that. If he is legit holding water like that it could be a medical condition. Andrew Barnes do you notice your socks leaving an imprint on your ankles?
Maybe I do have a medical condition because I've never held onto this much water before in my life. Lasix made my abs look the way they normally look before I tried test and darolutamide. If I had fat on my abs, I still wouldn't be able to see my abs with Lasix.
 
AndrewBarnes

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But why are you having high prolactin in the first place? I would see a doctor. Or at the very least confirm high prolactin levels via blood test and if high, see a doctor.
I had to stop caber because it makes my gyno horribly worse. I think there's a prolactin rebound effect with caber and even if I take smaller doses more frequently, it still makes my gyno worse. I don't think I have high prolactin levels anymore because after I took the first 0.5mg dose of caber, my weight didn't go down (aka my water retention stayed the same) but after a few days my weight increased and my gyno got worse, which leads me to believe that there's a prolactin rebound effect from taking caber. The only thing that helps my water retention is Aromasin and diuretics. I tried letro but aromasin is more effective for me since it's a suicidal AI.

Maybe my bloat is caused by total test and free test being too high? I know that some TRT patients complain of water retention. I'm going to continue taking 12.5mg of Aromasin per week and get another blood test to see where everything is at, specifically my total test, free test, prolactin, E2, and SHBG.
 
Renew1

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For a year now I have been bloated (carrying an extra 5-10 pounds of water) and I don't know how to get rid of it. It all started when I tried 250mg of Test-E last year for a month. I didn't dose the AI high enough and developed a small little lump in my right nip. I dropped the Test and bought some Ralox to combat it. Very soon after I tried topical antiandrogens (RU58841, Darolutamide) for hairloss and this caused my gyno to get much worse (puffy nips) and lots of water retention. I stopped using the antiandrogens so I can get rid of the gyno, which I did with Ralox, but the water retention never went away.

My baseline off-cycle with no AI is lean with defined abs and a chiseled face but now I'm carrying a belly of water and my face is swollen. I know it's water and not fat because I took a diuretic (Lasix) and it made my body look how it's supposed to normally look while off-cycle. My diet, water intake, sodium intake, and everything else hasn't changed.

I ran a RAD140 cycle to see if increasing the androgen load in my body will decrease the water retention but it didn't. Right now I'm taking Aromasin 12.5mg 1-2x a week to lower my E2 and this helps to get rid of some water weight but I'm still holding onto water. I ordered some Proviron because I heard it helps but I'm not expecting a miracle since I already ran RAD140 and it didn't do much for the water retention.

I posted my blood work which was done after stopping RAD140 for a week or 2. My cortisol, progesterone, IGF-1, SHBG all seem to be fine. The only thing that stands out to me from my blood work is the high free test. I had bloodwork done before I did any cycles and my free test was 85 pg/mL but right now it's double that at 160 pg/mL. Maybe all the extra free test is causing me to bloat?

Does developing gyno make you permanently bloated? Are my androgen receptors all messed up due to the anti-androgens I took? Is there anything else that would make me retain this much water? Would it be recommended to go see a TRT doc or endocrinologist?

AntiAndrogens SUCK!
Apparently some guys can use them without bad effects, but for some guys they create a nightmare.

If I were you (and you are able), I would try to see an endocrinologist.
 
Iwilleattuna

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I'd agree with @Renew1 on the anti androgens, but you may want to check kidney function

You sure your aromasin is legit. If so, may want to try arimidex or letro
 
Renew1

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I'd agree with @Renew1 on the anti androgens, but you may want to check kidney function

You sure your aromasin is legit. If so, may want to try arimidex or letro
Oh, I agree with you... There's no way to know for sure what's going on right now.
... That's why I recommended seeing a Dr. ... An Endocrinologist specifically, because some Drs really aren't very good with the Hormonal side of Medicine.
 
Iwilleattuna

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If you ran an anti androgen , you may need a dht to add , as well

Your androgen to estrogen ratio is probably way off

Oh, and don't rely on lasix as it has a bad rebound effect. Gallon of pure water a day no exception and pick up urva ursi and dandelion root capsules . Urva is very effective for me.

Use the sauna as well

Keto diet

Edit: saw you are trying proviron so that would be a dht
 
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AndrewBarnes

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AntiAndrogens SUCK!
Apparently some guys can use them without bad effects, but for some guys they create a nightmare.

If I were you (and you are able), I would try to see an endocrinologist.
I took a high dose of RU58841 and was fine but when I tried darolutamide, which was recommended on hairlosstalk forum, it gave made my gyno the worst it's ever been even tho I was on Ralox when I took the daro. Daro is such a strong antiandrogen that I think it screwed up my hormone balance. I applied it topically but even it went systemic
 
AndrewBarnes

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Oh, I agree with you... There's no way to know for sure what's going on right now.
... That's why I recommended seeing a Dr. ... An Endocrinologist specifically, because some Drs really aren't very good with the Hormonal side of Medicine.
I'm going to wait a month or 2 for my bloodwork to stabilize then I'll go see one.
 
AndrewBarnes

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If you ran an anti androgen , you may need a dht to add , as well

Your androgen to estrogen ratio is probably way off

Oh, and don't rely on lasix as it has a bad rebound effect. Gallon of pure water a day no exception and pick up urva ursi and dandelion root capsules . Urva is very effective for me.

Use the sauna as well

Keto diet

Edit: saw you are trying proviron so that would be a dht
My androgen to estrogen ratio could be way off. On my blood test, my test was double what it's supposed to be, which is really strange. If anything it should've been lower since I was coming off of RAD140. I feel that the test in my system is higher because it's not binding to androgen receptors and in turn is being converted into excess estrogen, but you would think that the excess test would also convert to DHT (especially because I'm taking aromasin that increases test levels). I will take proviron and hopefully it works but it unfortunately will wreck my hair :(
 
Hyde

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I understand you are doing the best you can here with your experimentation, but let’s not get presumptuous.

There is not a rebound effect from Caber. It exerts its prolactin-lowering effects for about a week, strongly lowering prolactin for about 4 days. It does not rebound - it merely stops lowering things. If there is still something otherwise driving it up, when you cease the drug levels would rise back up. So say you had been taking Tren Ace and you use Caber to clear prolactin. If you stop the Tren Ace during that time when the Caber stops you should be alright. But if you continue the Tren and then stop Caber, levels will climb back up because nothing is counteracting the continued prolactin stimulus.

If you took sufficient Caber, it should stop lactation. You might be able to squeeze a little out still initially, but the gland shouldn’t really refill with liquid if prolactin stays down. But it absolutely should not get worse. Your Caber is probably under-dosed or bunk. Caber is fairly expensive & harder to source compared to most ancillaries so this isn’t out of the realm of reason.

RAD and most SARMs are well known for crashing SHBG. This is why, despite total test coming down as the RAD suppressed it, free test actually doubled. This is why most are recommended to not be run with large amounts of testosterone. All this free test floating around is bound to increase frequency of binding to aromatase or 5a-reducing to DHT. In light of your presented fluid retention symptoms and past anti-androgen use, it’s a pretty safe bet the lion’s share is aromatizing.

There is a small but very significant percentage of guys who get very serious sides from anti-androgens, and the reasons aren’t really understood, but we know those sides persist despite cessation of the drug. For as long as has been studied, like 8 years. This could be worth investigating with an endocrinologist; it won’t be fixable but it would give you answers and they would better be able to guide balancing your hormones. They can get you tested, get you some drugs, monitor & educate. I really think this is worth your time after a year of feeling off. Be honest with all of the compounds you have used and timelines, you won’t get in trouble.

If you are just going to play with things yourself, on paper proviron cycled in and out for a bit and some aromasin use may help. Watch your lipids over time with Proviron.

Good luck.
 

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I understand you are doing the best you can here with your experimentation, but let’s not get presumptuous.

There is not a rebound effect from Caber. It exerts its prolactin-lowering effects for about a week, strongly lowering prolactin for about 4 days. It does not rebound - it merely stops lowering things. If there is still something otherwise driving it up, when you cease the drug levels would rise back up. So say you had been taking Tren Ace and you use Caber to clear prolactin. If you stop the Tren Ace during that time when the Caber stops you should be alright. But if you continue the Tren and then stop Caber, levels will climb back up because nothing is counteracting the continued prolactin stimulus.

If you took sufficient Caber, it should stop lactation. You might be able to squeeze a little out still initially, but the gland shouldn’t really refill with liquid if prolactin stays down. But it absolutely should not get worse. Your Caber is probably under-dosed or bunk. Caber is fairly expensive & harder to source compared to most ancillaries so this isn’t out of the realm of reason.

RAD and most SARMs are well known for crashing SHBG. This is why, despite total test coming down as the RAD suppressed it, free test actually doubled. This is why most are recommended to not be run with large amounts of testosterone. All this free test floating around is bound to increase frequency of binding to aromatase or 5a-reducing to DHT. In light of your presented fluid retention symptoms and past anti-androgen use, it’s a pretty safe bet the lion’s share is aromatizing.

There is a small but very significant percentage of guys who get very serious sides from anti-androgens, and the reasons aren’t really understood, but we know those sides persist despite cessation of the drug. For as long as has been studied, like 8 years. This could be worth investigating with an endocrinologist; it won’t be fixable but it would give you answers and they would better be able to guide balancing your hormones. They can get you tested, get you some drugs, monitor & educate. I really think this is worth your time after a year of feeling off. Be honest with all of the compounds you have used and timelines, you won’t get in trouble.

If you are just going to play with things yourself, on paper proviron cycled in and out for a bit and some aromasin use may help. Watch your lipids over time with Proviron.

Good luck.
Thanks for the response. Since rad140 decreases shbg, what ways can I go about to increase it? Maybe that will help me. I'm still waiting for the proviron to come in. I'll give proviron a go and if it doesnt help then I'll go see an endo.
 

Thoadam

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I understand you are doing the best you can here with your experimentation, but let’s not get presumptuous.

There is not a rebound effect from Caber. It exerts its prolactin-lowering effects for about a week, strongly lowering prolactin for about 4 days. It does not rebound - it merely stops lowering things. If there is still something otherwise driving it up, when you cease the drug levels would rise back up. So say you had been taking Tren Ace and you use Caber to clear prolactin. If you stop the Tren Ace during that time when the Caber stops you should be alright. But if you continue the Tren and then stop Caber, levels will climb back up because nothing is counteracting the continued prolactin stimulus.

If you took sufficient Caber, it should stop lactation. You might be able to squeeze a little out still initially, but the gland shouldn’t really refill with liquid if prolactin stays down. But it absolutely should not get worse. Your Caber is probably under-dosed or bunk. Caber is fairly expensive & harder to source compared to most ancillaries so this isn’t out of the realm of reason.

RAD and most SARMs are well known for crashing SHBG. This is why, despite total test coming down as the RAD suppressed it, free test actually doubled. This is why most are recommended to not be run with large amounts of testosterone. All this free test floating around is bound to increase frequency of binding to aromatase or 5a-reducing to DHT. In light of your presented fluid retention symptoms and past anti-androgen use, it’s a pretty safe bet the lion’s share is aromatizing.

There is a small but very significant percentage of guys who get very serious sides from anti-androgens, and the reasons aren’t really understood, but we know those sides persist despite cessation of the drug. For as long as has been studied, like 8 years. This could be worth investigating with an endocrinologist; it won’t be fixable but it would give you answers and they would better be able to guide balancing your hormones. They can get you tested, get you some drugs, monitor & educate. I really think this is worth your time after a year of feeling off. Be honest with all of the compounds you have used and timelines, you won’t get in trouble.

If you are just going to play with things yourself, on paper proviron cycled in and out for a bit and some aromasin use may help. Watch your lipids over time with Proviron.

Good luck.
What if I add in DHEA until the proviron comes in? It will increase test and dht and I'll continue the aromasin to keep estrogen in check
 
AndrewBarnes

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I was looking at this site for symptoms of androgen deficiency https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/androgen-deficiency-in-men

"Symptoms of androgen deficiency
When there is not enough testosterone circulating in the body, it can cause a wide range of symptoms. However, a number of these symptoms may be non-specific and can mimic the symptoms of other diseases and conditions.

Some of the symptoms of androgen deficiency include:
reduced sexual desire
hot flushes and sweating
breast development (gynaecomastia)
lethargy and fatigue
depression
reduced muscle mass and strength
increased body fat, particularly around the abdomen
weaker erections and orgasms
reduced amount of ejaculate
loss of body hair
reduced bone mass, therefore increased risk of osteoporosis."

I definitely relate to a lot of these symptoms. Maybe my PCT after my test cycle never brought me back to baseline and I've been living with androgen deficiency ever since? I'm going to run dermacrine and use an OTC test booster to see if it helps. I'm also using aromasin to decrease estrogen/increase test, and ralox to combat gyno/increase test/increase SHBG. Will get bloods done next month to see where I'm at.
 
Hyde

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Thanks for the response. Since rad140 decreases shbg, what ways can I go about to increase it? Maybe that will help me. I'm still waiting for the proviron to come in. I'll give proviron a go and if it doesnt help then I'll go see an endo.
What if I add in DHEA until the proviron comes in? It will increase test and dht and I'll continue the aromasin to keep estrogen in check
Are you the OP under a different account? Or do you have your own issues and just chimed in?

If you are OP, Proviron will actually significantly lower SHBG further - it’s how it raises free test. But if he has gyno because his ratio of androgens to estrogens is to far skewed towards estrogens, he would still benefit in that scenario. Proviron also directly competes with the estrogen receptors at the breast, so it helps inhibit estrogen-based gyno via that path as well (similar to Masteron in that respect).

DHEA taken orally tends to favor conversion to estrogen, but sublingual delivery (letting it dissolve under the tongue) helps lessen that preference some. Applying it transdermally (Dermacrine or comparable products) is a bit better odds of getting a bit more test out of the DHEA. But you will still have a bunch that can aromatize to estrogen, so an AI with DHEA is a good idea if trying to limit conversion to estrogen. Normally DHEA can raise estrogen pretty quickly overall taken solo.
 
KvanH

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Thanks for the response. Since rad140 decreases shbg, what ways can I go about to increase it? Maybe that will help me. I'm still waiting for the proviron to come in. I'll give proviron a go and if it doesnt help then I'll go see an endo.
I think Hyde was replying to OP's case. What is your case/situation?

Discontinuing Rad would increase shbg. Nolva would too. Excercise, calorie restriction and caffeine could too.

Edit: I see I was late
 
Iwilleattuna

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Very good post by @Hyde

And op you made no mention of adding the recommendations I did to help control the water retention even more. Keto diet, sauna, cardio and natural herbal diuretics???

Are you sure your aromasin is legit?
 
Iwilleattuna

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My androgen to estrogen ratio could be way off. On my blood test, my test was double what it's supposed to be, which is really strange. If anything it should've been lower since I was coming off of RAD140. I feel that the test in my system is higher because it's not binding to androgen receptors and in turn is being converted into excess estrogen, but you would think that the excess test would also convert to DHT (especially because I'm taking aromasin that increases test levels). I will take proviron and hopefully it works but it unfortunately will wreck my hair :(
Sounds like some sort of rebound

I’m sure low dose proviron will be fine. Use nizoral shampoo(ketoconazole) if worried. Leave it in hair for 10 mins for rinsing
 
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