SARMS vs Prohormones/DS/AAS

Metalingus

Metalingus

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Interested in peoples thoughts on this. Can the results from SARMS really compare to even mid range prohormones and steroids?

I've used LGD, Ostarine and RAD140 (all pill form) and noticed very minimal results in comparison to M-sten, which really blew me up.

Has anyone seen any real, genuine results, particularly in terms of mass, from SARMS use?
 

captain86a

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I have used 15mg of lgd 4033 and 25mg of MK 677 per day for 12 weeks and gained a _hit ton of mass. I went from around 248lbs to 265lbs. Now most of that was probably glycogen and water, but I have been off both for a few months and have maintained about 255lbs with a proper pct of clomid.(50/25/12.5/12.5) So I sure some of that was pure muscle.
 

JoePaul39

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Interested in peoples thoughts on this. Can the results from SARMS really compare to even mid range prohormones and steroids?

I've used LGD, Ostarine and RAD140 (all pill form) and noticed very minimal results in comparison to M-sten, which really blew me up.

Has anyone seen any real, genuine results, particularly in terms of mass, from SARMS use?
Sarms can work effectively, but they need to be stacked and dosed high. A good stack would be something like LGD 20 mg, S23 30 mg, Rad 140 30 mg. The problem is this can get expensive though since you are running three compounds all at high doses.
 
Smont

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And once you up the doses they act like steroids. Sides And all so you mine as well use something tried and trusted
 

City Boy

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And once you up the doses they act like steroids. Sides And all so you mine as well use something tried and trusted
I agree with this totally after seeing people’s blood work all the things you hope to exclude are still there ,liver stress ,shutdown etc and people stack multiple compounds for 12 weeks thinking it’s only sarms there safe.
 

JoePaul39

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And once you up the doses they act like steroids. Sides And all so you mine as well use something tried and trusted
I ran S23 30 mg, Rad 140 at 30 mg, Ostarine 25 mg for 8 weeks while on trt. Took Arimicare Pro, fish oil pills, 1000 mg TUDCA, and Molecular Nutrition Lipid Stabil for supports. Ran liver blood and Hematocrit post cycle both came back normal or near normal post cycle. Blood pressure fine throughout. Only sides was HDL went to low 20s as is to be expected and lost a patch of hair that grew back post cycle.
 

City Boy

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I ran S23 30 mg, Rad 140 at 30 mg, Ostarine 25 mg for 8 weeks while on trt. Took Arimicare Pro, fish oil pills, 1000 mg TUDCA, and Molecular Nutrition Lipid Stabil for supports. Ran liver blood and Hematocrit post cycle both came back normal or near normal post cycle. Blood pressure fine throughout. Only sides was HDL went to low 20s as is to be expected and lost a patch of hair that grew back post cycle.
What were the gains in comparison to would you say which AAS/PH
 
Smont

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I ran S23 30 mg, Rad 140 at 30 mg, Ostarine 25 mg for 8 weeks while on trt. Took Arimicare Pro, fish oil pills, 1000 mg TUDCA, and Molecular Nutrition Lipid Stabil for supports. Ran liver blood and Hematocrit post cycle both came back normal or near normal post cycle. Blood pressure fine throughout. Only sides was HDL went to low 20s as is to be expected and lost a patch of hair that grew back post cycle.
That's awesome, I've had bloods come back all in range after superdrol before so I definitely believe it. But what did that run cost you$$$$ im sure.
 
Smont

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Which sides except lethargy?
Lethargy, shutdown like oral steroids, osta can give you gyno, s23 can be harsh on bloodwork, I can't remember anything on blood pressure but ya. There's plenty of possibilities. Sides are also person dependent. When I would be on cycles of regular gear I almost never had any negative sides not even with anadrol or superdrol
 

JoePaul39

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That's awesome, I've had bloods come back all in range after superdrol before so I definitely believe it. But what did that run cost you$$$$ im sure.

It cost a lot. That is the drawback. Eventually when the gains start diminishing on Sarms I plan on switching to the steroid DMZ. Will save a bundle. One of the advantages of Sarms that I like is they do not enlarge the prostate like steroids (S23 actually shrinks the prostate). My dad had to have his prostate removed in his early 70s so this is something I need to consider in my choice of compounds. This is one reason I have postponed using steroids. Also Sarms don’t cause enlarged hearts like steroid usage could cause. Most don’t cause hair loss as well (with the exception of S23). Also they are legal so don’t have to worry about felony possession of a controlled substance. However. as far as lipids go (and for some even liver values) Sarms can be as bad as steroids.
 
Metalingus

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So, what would people generally expect from a 6 week stack of say 12mg LGD and 30mg RAD140?

SARMS are appealing on paper for a number of reasons, but I haven't had the greatest results from my experiences so far in terms of real world results.
 

Mathb33

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So, what would people generally expect from a 6 week stack of say 12mg LGD and 30mg RAD140?

SARMS are appealing on paper for a number of reasons, but I haven't had the greatest results from my experiences so far in terms of real world results.
6 week is too little that’s for sure. But what would be the goal of that rad/lgd cycle?lean bulk?
 

JoePaul39

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6 week is too little that’s for sure. But what would be the goal of that rad/lgd cycle?lean bulk?
Ya I would go 8 weeks (some would recommend 12, but personally I wouldn’t want to tank my lipids that long ). Also, would consider upoing the dosage for the LGD to around 20mg or however close you can get to that number with the capsule dosage you have. Lot of guys on here have seen excellent results at that dosage.

How many pounds of muscle you can expect is hard to say because it is based on a variety of variables including training, diet, if you are fairly new to anabolics (obviously then you could expect to gain more than if you have already run many previously successful cycles), what kind of pct you use after the cycle, and of course genetics.
 
Metalingus

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6 week is too little that’s for sure. But what would be the goal of that rad/lgd cycle?lean bulk?
Ya I would go 8 weeks (some would recommend 12, but personally I wouldn’t want to tank my lipids that long ). Also, would consider upoing the dosage for the LGD to around 20mg or however close you can get to that number with the capsule dosage you have. Lot of guys on here have seen excellent results at that dosage.

How many pounds of muscle you can expect is hard to say because it is based on a variety of variables including training, diet, if you are fairly new to anabolics (obviously then you could expect to gain more than if you have already run many previously successful cycles), what kind of pct you use after the cycle, and of course genetics.
OK, so 8 weeks, at the right dosage, what would be a ball park be in terms of lean gains?

As an exanple during my last m-sten cycle I gained 15lbs in 4 weeks eating at a 500 calorie surplus, and managed to keep about 9 after PCT. Could a stack of something like LGD and RAD at the right dosages potentially do a similar job across 8 weeks or is it likely to never be that potent?
 

JoePaul39

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OK, so 8 weeks, at the right dosage, what would be a ball park be in terms of lean gains?

As an exanple during my last m-sten cycle I gained 15lbs in 4 weeks eating at a 500 calorie surplus, and managed to keep about 9 after PCT. Could a stack of something like LGD and RAD at the right dosages potentially do a similar job across 8 weeks or is it likely to never be that potent?
Don’t expect to gain 15 pounds like on the steroid. It won’t come close. I would guess 4 to 8 pounds is possible if you eat enough extra calories, run the LGD at 20 mg instead of 12mg, and train hard (this estimate is assuming you haven’t already reached near your genetic potential already from your previous steroid cycles). The good news is the gains should be more keepable with a prescription strength pct.
 

JoePaul39

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OK, so 8 weeks, at the right dosage, what would be a ball park be in terms of lean gains?

As an exanple during my last m-sten cycle I gained 15lbs in 4 weeks eating at a 500 calorie surplus, and managed to keep about 9 after PCT. Could a stack of something like LGD and RAD at the right dosages potentially do a similar job across 8 weeks or is it likely to never be that potent?
Just curious, what is your motivation to go from steroids to Sarms? Typically people go the other way around (I.e. use Sarms then move onto something stronger in steroids).
 
Metalingus

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Just curious, what is your motivation to go from steroids to Sarms? Typically people go the other way around (I.e. use Sarms then move onto something stronger in steroids).
I've used both, I just wondered if there could be more to have from cycles of SARMS than I've experienced so far. The comparitive lack of side effects appeals, but the real world results seem questionable.
 

JoePaul39

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I've used both, I just wondered if there could be more to have from cycles of SARMS than I've experienced so far. The comparitive lack of side effects appeals, but the real world results seem questionable.
My opinion is Sarms are best for those
first starting out on anabolics as they will get the most keepable gains then and the Sarms will provide them experience before diving into more serious steroid cycles. Someone who is already a seasoned steroid user probably wouldn’t benefit immensely from a Sarms only cycle unless they are willing to combine 3 or 4 Sarms at fairly high dosages, but at that point cost can become an issue. A better alternative to a Sarms only cycle for someone who already runs steroids is to stack a Sarm or two with a steroid, especially if using a methylated steroid. For example, since methylated steroids should only be run for 4 to 6 weeks you could stack and run DMZ for the first 4 weeks of a cycle to “kickstart” an 8 week LGD run. LGD typically takes 4 weeks to kick in, but since you are also running DMZ for the first four weeks of the cycle and DMZ kicks in much quicker you will get benefits the entire 8 weeks you are on cycle, rather than only final four if you had run the LGD solo.
 
Zvch

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Without a doubt if you run the right stack or dosages. Sometimes you can can end up getting even better results because you can retain 90-100% of the muscle you put on, even without a Test base. Most times your testosterone levels are only going to be minimally or moderately suppressed as opposed to a PH, DS, AAS cycle where your T levels are going to tank. The gains are also slightly more gradual so that rebound homeostasis effect doesn't really happen. When I ran my first SARM cycle I wasn't on TRT yet, so if you're on TRT or have a Test base it's an entirely different story - the gains are going to be even better.

My first SARM cycle was with Kong by MedFit-RX which per tablet is
Ostarine - 25mg
LGD - 10mg
RAD-140 - 6mg
Cardarine - 20mg
MK-677 - 15mg

The first month I put on 8-10lbs, the second month I had to up the dose to 1.5 tabs to get the same results but in the 8 weeks I put on a total of 18lbs and kept it all, even with an OTC PCT with just some Arimistane, Tribulus, Ashwaganda, Epimedium, Epicatechin, and Laxogenin, etc. You retain almost no water on SARMs so the gains are pretty dry. Essentially everything you see yourself packing on in the mirror is what you're going to keep. I've noticed that my tolerance to SARMs builds faster than to anything else I've ever ran though, that's one downside. The dose has to be upped by 50% every 4-5 weeks for me. Two of those compounds aren't SARMs of course, but the MK-677 acts as a light dose of growth hormone and the Cardarine acts like a fat burner and nutrient partitioner. The Cardarine is optional but I would use the MK-677 in any SARM stack for sure.
I agree, you're definitely not going to feel as much of an increase in aggression or notice as much of a strength increase as something like DMZ or Msten but honestly I think that's just because it's not happening as quickly as with a DHT derivative and because you're not getting much DHT conversion. If you go into the high doses of SARMs like the 30+ range for RAD and LGD, that could be a different story though. I've have yet to experiment with high-dose SARMs because I haven't really felt it necessary. One SARM at an effective dose stacked with 400mg Test nets me great results.
S-23 and YK-11 are a totally different animal. They're legitimate steroids and nobody can convince me different. I personally haven't had good experience with YK even stacked with Test, but I know some people who swear by it. S23 turns me into a ****ing monster. That's a legitimate DHT for sure.
 
Zvch

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Don’t expect to gain 15 pounds like on the steroid. It won’t come close. I would guess 4 to 8 pounds is possible if you eat enough extra calories, run the LGD at 20 mg instead of 12mg, and train hard (this estimate is assuming you haven’t already reached near your genetic potential already from your previous steroid cycles). The good news is the gains should be more keepable with a prescription strength pct.
I respectfully disagree here. With LGD at 15-20mgand RAD at 30mg, if you don't put on close to 15lbs in 8 weeks, you're ****ing up. And OP looks like he knows what he's doing so that shouldn't be an issue. Just eat like you're running Sten. SARMs may be even better than DS/AAS at nutrient partitioning in my opinion.

I'd also agree with not running a SARM cyle under 8 weeks. They take 3-4 to really start to shine. I personally would recommend LGD 15mg, Rad 10-15mg, and Ostarine at 30-40mg. If you have all 3 and it's your first SARM run, there shouldn't be a need to go over these dosages. Maybe up the LGD for the second month.
I'd also recommend running Cardarine during your PCT. That should keep your endurance way up so you can perform just as intensely as when you were on cycle.
 

JoePaul39

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I respectfully disagree here. With LGD at 15-20mgand RAD at 30mg, if you don't put on close to 15lbs in 8 weeks, you're ****ing up. And OP looks like he knows what he's doing so that shouldn't be an issue
The reason I told him only 4 to 8 pounds instead of 15 pounds is because he said he has already run multiple previous steroid and Sarms cycles with 15 pound gains on a cycle so I think the law of diminishing returns might apply in his case. If it were his first or second cycle of anabolics I don’t doubt he should expect 15 pounds, but who knows you could be correct as everybody responds differently and gains come easier to some than others depending on how God has gifted your body (just look at Arnold). That is one reason I didnt provide an estimate the first time he asked for one. If you were to run a Kong only cycle again while not on trt like you did previouslt do you really think it would net you 15 pounds again if you kept the dosages the same as last time and didn’t add anything additonal?
 
Zvch

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The reason I told him only 4 to 8 pounds instead of 15 pounds is because he said he has already run multiple previous steroid and Sarms cycles with 15 pound gains on a cycle so I think the law of diminishing returns might apply in his case. If it were his first or second cycle of anabolics I don’t doubt he should expect 15 pounds, but who knows you could be correct as everybody responds differently and gains come easier to some than others depending on how God has gifted your body (just look at Arnold). That is one reason I didnt provide an estimate the first time he asked for one. If you were to run a Kong only cycle again while not on trt like you did previouslt do you really think it would net you 15 pounds again if you kept the dosages the same as last time and didn’t add anything additonal?
I could definitely be wrong about how much he should put on but honestly I think that as long as it's a new compound to him, he should react very well to it regardless of what he's run in the past. I could be wrong about that too. I think I could net 15lbs easy in 8 weeks without a Test base, I might have to up the dose of Kong a bit since my body is used to Ostarine though. There are a lot of factors and everybody is going to react to everything slightly different. I'm just saying I've never had to go over 15mg LGD, 9mg RAD, 35-40mg Osta stacked together to get 7-8lbs in a month.

I was working with very low endogenous T the first time I ran Kong which was something I had suspected, but I didn't know how low. I was pretty dumb then, still am lol. I think If he's got good Test production, decent doses of new compounds, good nutrition and intense training, he should kill it with LGD and RAD at a higher dose. The whole reason I haven't run Kong again since then is that I'm trying to cut or recomp and that stuff is so incredibly potent that I can be in a calorie deficit and gain weight with 300mg of Test.

I sell guys this stuff all the time and some have poop results, some come back with better results than mine. The majority of customers my retailer has react generally the same though. Most times the ones that don't respond are the ones who you can tell don't know what they're doing in the first place. SARMs seem to be much more predictable than PH/DS. I will say this too though: if you run the RAD and LGD at 15-20 or higher, you may need a small amount of Arimidex. Be ready for that just in case. I have a coworker right now who's running a high dose of LGD and RAD that I had to put on a Nolva and Aromasin protocol last week for a minor flare-up.
 

JoePaul39

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I will say this too though: if you run the RAD and LGD at 15-20 or higher, you may need a small amount of Arimidex. Be ready for that just in case. I have acoworker right now who's running a high dose of LGD and RAD that I had to put on a Nolva and Aromasin protocol last week for a minor flare-up.
I always keep Arimidex on hand. Was the coworker on test with the Sarms?Maybe running it that high suppressed his test so low that he became susceptible to gyno due to upsetting his e to t ratio. I have also heard of guys getting gyno even while on trt from LGD possibly due to a sky rocketing rise in free t from the LGD which then converts to e.
 

JoePaul39

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Is this current cycle you are on your first since going on trt?
 
Zvch

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I always keep Arimidex on hand. Was the coworker on test with the Sarms?Maybe running it that high suppressed his test so low that he became susceptible to gyno due to upsetting his e to t ratio. I have also heard of guys getting gyno even while on trt from LGD possibly due to a sky rocketing rise in free t from the LGD which then converts to e.
Nah he wasn't on TRT or a base. That's a good point. Does LGD lower SHBG or what is the mechanism by which that happens? I'd be interested to see studies on that. I wonder if LGD at a low dose could be used long-term in place of something like Proviron or Masteron on TRT.
 

JoePaul39

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Does LGD lower SHBG or what is the mechanism by which that happens? I'd be interested to see studies on that.
Yes, I read somewhere (can’t recall where though ) that LGD actually lowers SHGB which in turn increases free t so it is good to supplement with for people on trt since they keep a high t throughout while on cycle.
 

JoePaul39

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Here is the study that says LGD lowers SHGB https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4111291/#!po=46.0938
Right under the hormones section of the study it states, “There was a dose-dependent suppression of total testosterone and sex hormone–binding globulin levels from baseline to day 21”. Whenever SHGB is lowered free t goes up if you are on trt. I just got on trt recently like yourself (less than a year). I am excited because my next run will be including LGD at 20 mg!
 
Zvch

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Here is the study that says LGD lowers SHGB https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4111291/#!po=46.0938
Right under the hormones section of the study it states, “There was a dose-dependent suppression of total testosterone and sex hormone–binding globulin levels from baseline to day 21”. Whenever SHGB is lowered free t goes up if you are on trt. I just got on trt recently like yourself (less than a year). I am excited because my next run will be including LGD at 20 mg!
It looks like it also says that but only in the .1mg and .3mg groups. In the 1mg group it says there was Free T suppression which sucks. I assume there would be additional Free T suppression over 1mg.
 

Jeremyk1

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It looks like it also says that but only in the .1mg and .3mg groups. In the 1mg group it says there was Free T suppression which sucks. I assume there would be additional Free T suppression over 1mg.
Free T was lowered as a result of lower total T. It specifically states that the suppression of total was greater than free, meaning the free test didn’t go down as much as would be expected considering the drop in total test.
 

JoePaul39

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It looks like it also says that but only in the .1mg and .3mg groups. In the 1mg group it says there was Free T suppression which sucks. I assume there would be additional Free T suppression over 1mg.
Yes I saw that, but keep in mind these participants weren’t on trt.
 
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The strongest isnt depending on wether its a Sarm or not. Sarms are weaker than the stronger aas but a Sarm like lgd is probably on pair with some mild steroids but also safer.
 

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Without a doubt if you run the right stack or dosages. Sometimes you can can end up getting even better results because you can retain 90-100% of the muscle you put on, even without a Test base. Most times your testosterone levels are only going to be minimally or moderately suppressed as opposed to a PH, DS, AAS cycle where your T levels are going to tank. The gains are also slightly more gradual so that rebound homeostasis effect doesn't really happen. When I ran my first SARM cycle I wasn't on TRT yet, so if you're on TRT or have a Test base it's an entirely different story - the gains are going to be even better.

My first SARM cycle was with Kong by MedFit-RX which per tablet is
Ostarine - 25mg
LGD - 10mg
RAD-140 - 6mg
Cardarine - 20mg
MK-677 - 15mg

The first month I put on 8-10lbs, the second month I had to up the dose to 1.5 tabs to get the same results but in the 8 weeks I put on a total of 18lbs and kept it all, even with an OTC PCT with just some Arimistane, Tribulus, Ashwaganda, Epimedium, Epicatechin, and Laxogenin, etc. You retain almost no water on SARMs so the gains are pretty dry. Essentially everything you see yourself packing on in the mirror is what you're going to keep. I've noticed that my tolerance to SARMs builds faster than to anything else I've ever ran though, that's one downside. The dose has to be upped by 50% every 4-5 weeks for me. Two of those compounds aren't SARMs of course, but the MK-677 acts as a light dose of growth hormone and the Cardarine acts like a fat burner and nutrient partitioner. The Cardarine is optional but I would use the MK-677 in any SARM stack for sure.
I agree, you're definitely not going to feel as much of an increase in aggression or notice as much of a strength increase as something like DMZ or Msten but honestly I think that's just because it's not happening as quickly as with a DHT derivative and because you're not getting much DHT conversion. If you go into the high doses of SARMs like the 30+ range for RAD and LGD, that could be a different story though. I've have yet to experiment with high-dose SARMs because I haven't really felt it necessary. One SARM at an effective dose stacked with 400mg Test nets me great results.
S-23 and YK-11 are a totally different animal. They're legitimate steroids and nobody can convince me different. I personally haven't had good experience with YK even stacked with Test, but I know some people who swear by it. S23 turns me into a ****ing monster. That's a legitimate DHT for sure.
So you only did an OTC PCT for Kong?
 
Zvch

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So you only did an OTC PCT for Kong?
A good one. I don’t think anything more is totally necessary for an 8 week SARM cycle. It was my first cycle ever so I bounced back quickly but I would obviously recommend something stronger to be safe. Lower dose clomid for 4 weeks or even 2 would be sufficient.
 

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A good one. I don’t think anything more is totally necessary for an 8 week SARM cycle. It was my first cycle ever so I bounced back quickly but I would obviously recommend something stronger to be safe. Lower dose clomid for 4 weeks or even 2 would be sufficient.
What do you mean you bounced back quickly? I don’t think feeling good=proper recovery. What was your bloodwork before and after?

Also, in the same post you mentioned you weren’t on TRT ‘yet’, do you think running the KONG without a SERM had anything to do with that.

For the record, I don’t agree that a SERM isn’t necessary for sarms.

But with that said don’t take this post personally, I’m not trying to pick at you; we’re literally test subjects for other people online AND I like to ask a lot of questions. It’s hard to gauge context online and I’m asking from a place of pure curiosity. I’m glad you would recommend Clomid, I usually do too.
 

JoePaul39

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What do you mean you bounced back quickly? I don’t think feeling good=proper recovery. What was your bloodwork before and after?

Also, in the same post you mentioned you weren’t on TRT ‘yet’, do you think running the KONG without a SERM had anything to do with that.

For the record, I don’t agree that a SERM isn’t necessary for sarms.

But with that said don’t take this post personally, I’m not trying to pick at you; we’re literally test subjects for other people online AND I like to ask a lot of questions. It’s hard to gauge context online and I’m asking from a place of pure curiosity. I’m glad you would recommend Clomid, I usually do too.
I agree with you a SERM should be used as proper protocol for pct, but people can still make and keep gains without them (though not as good). Remember, back in Arnold’s day of the golden era of bodybuilding they did not use Serms and I think Arnold and others did all right for themselves physique wise, don’t you?
 

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I agree with you a SERM should be used as proper protocol for pct, but people can still make and keep gains without them (though not as good). Remember, back in Arnold’s day of the golden era of bodybuilding they did not use Serms and I think Arnold and others did all right for themselves physique wise, don’t you?
Arnold and others for sure did great with their physiques, no doubt.

When I do a PCT, I do want to retain gains but my primary focus is on getting my balls back working full force ASAP.

Arnold et al. looked amazing but those gentleman are obviously outliers(if they even recovered their hormonal system 100%, I honestly don’t know). Not only that, think of all the people back in the day who didn’t PCT and got gyno and tanked libido(over an extended period of time) that never spoke up or were not bodybuilding celebrities. I like to think there’s a higher number of men who speak up and say they recovered without a PCT than the number of men who’ll admit they f-ed up and now have small balls, no sex drive, and tits.

To summarize, I won’t do a cycle of drugs Arnold/others did without a PCT just because they looked great and allegedly recovered (if they even did fully) just like I wouldn’t follow them off a bridge. Whether you PCT properly or not is your prerogative brother, whatever the case I wish you well.

My apologies for de-railing the thread but to answer the OPs question, no I haven’t seen comparable mass gains from SARMS compared to roids. I took LGD for 8 weeks while a friend of mine pinned test (for 12 weeks, apples to oranges)at the same time and the gains weren’t even comparable. I still enjoyed the cycle overall: re-comped nicely, gained strength, and kept the size/strength increases after PCT, but you asked about mass and I didn’t blow up like I thought I would.
 
Zvch

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What do you mean you bounced back quickly? I don’t think feeling good=proper recovery. What was your bloodwork before and after?

Also, in the same post you mentioned you weren’t on TRT ‘yet’, do you think running the KONG without a SERM had anything to do with that.

For the record, I don’t agree that a SERM isn’t necessary for sarms.

But with that said don’t take this post personally, I’m not trying to pick at you; we’re literally test subjects for other people online AND I like to ask a lot of questions. It’s hard to gauge context online and I’m asking from a place of pure curiosity. I’m glad you would recommend Clomid, I usually do too.
I don’t think feeling good equals proper recovery either but the way I see it, your body will recover on its own even without a PCT as long as you don’t completely shut down LH and FSH production, which is really hard to do with a SARM. You pretty much have to try to do that - either with ridiculous doses or ridiculous cycle lengths, or both. As far as I’m concerned, if you don’t have testicular shrinkage and other side-effects, your body should recover fine with a good OTC PCT. My sex drive was higher after my PCT than it had been in years.

Now obviously I would recommend something stronger just to be safe, but ONLY if someone knows what they’re doing and has an AI on hand. Selling this stuff for a living, I’ve seen guys fxck themselves up worse with Nolva or Clomid when they didn’t need it - they can both elevate estrogen, cause rebound estrogen/gyno, etc. They are overkill for a SARM cycle in most cases.
I’ve also seen enough guys recover really well from SARM cycles with nothing or just an OTC product to know that they’re generally not very suppressive if you’re responsible with them.

We also have to keep in mind that the HPTA has a job to do and it’s pretty good at it. As long as it’s only shut down for a short period of time, it will more than likely go into overdrive and dramatically upregulate production without a catalyst once any androgens are withdrawn.

I didn’t get bloodwork done before. I don’t really think it’s necessary for SARMs unless you’re running high doses, long cycles or running something like YK or S23. It is ideal though obviously.
My T levels were garbage for years beforehand due to a couple medical conditions and medications - I had been having ALL kinds of low T symptoms for years so I was of the “I don’t have anything to lose” mentality. This was a while ago, obviously not a good decision.
I got bloodwork done fasted at 5 weeks post-cycle and my Total T was 194ng/dl at 24 years old. I don’t think the SARMs had much to do with this, I think those levels were probably higher than what they were before my cycle based on my increase in sex-drive, etc.

Once again, I recommend doing things differently than I did. I’m just answering your questions honestly.
 

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I don’t think feeling good equals proper recovery either but the way I see it, your body will recover on its own even without a PCT as long as you don’t completely shut down LH and FSH production, which is really hard to do with a SARM. You pretty much have to try to do that - either with ridiculous doses or ridiculous cycle lengths, or both. As far as I’m concerned, if you don’t have testicular shrinkage and other side-effects, your body should recover fine with a good OTC PCT. My sex drive was higher after my PCT than it had been in years.

Now obviously I would recommend something stronger just to be safe, but ONLY if someone knows what they’re doing and has an AI on hand. Selling this stuff for a living, I’ve seen guys fxck themselves up worse with Nolva or Clomid when they didn’t need it - they can both elevate estrogen, cause rebound estrogen/gyno, etc. They are overkill for a SARM cycle in most cases.
I’ve also seen enough guys recover really well from SARM cycles with nothing or just an OTC product to know that they’re generally not very suppressive if you’re responsible with them.

We also have to keep in mind that the HPTA has a job to do and it’s pretty good at it. As long as it’s only shut down for a short period of time, it will more than likely go into overdrive and dramatically upregulate production without a catalyst once any androgens are withdrawn.

I didn’t get bloodwork done before. I don’t really think it’s necessary for SARMs unless you’re running high doses, long cycles or running something like YK or S23. It is ideal though obviously.
My T levels were garbage for years beforehand due to a couple medical conditions and medications - I had been having ALL kinds of low T symptoms for years so I was of the “I don’t have anything to lose” mentality. This was a while ago, obviously not a good decision.
I got bloodwork done fasted at 5 weeks post-cycle and my Total T was 194ng/dl at 24 years old. I don’t think the SARMs had much to do with this, I think those levels were probably higher than what they were before my cycle based on my increase in sex-drive, etc.

Once again, I recommend doing things differently than I did. I’m just answering your questions honestly.
Thanks for your honest answers brother, people sharing their experiences helps the community overall. Best of luck with all your future cycles
 
Old Witch

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I should’ve jumped in on this quite awhile ago.

You can definitely get similar results as with a steroid using only lgd and ostarine if you choose. Much like an injectable, it won’t have much effect for a few weeks, so similar time frames should be used.

Multiple compounds should be used as except for s23 and yk11 the known and popular sarms don’t really pack the punch we crave in solo.

25mg lgd, 45mg ostarine, 12 weeks. Minimum. Will grow for sure, 15-20lbs is actually a possibility on that stack for that length of time (unlike solo low dose sarms)
 
Old Witch

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Lgd and ostarine in a stack also makes you grow in a slightly different way from just steroids, which takes time to get used to and utilize. You gain ground in muscle tissue plates and the real estate they occupy during training via wicked pumps, but then it stays big when the pump goes away. Then the next session on that same exercise it happens again, and again, and again... as if you can feel the insertions being inflated daily and growing closer together.

that’s two totally different effects working in concert. Similar to using both steroids and IGF or GH. Ostarine will increase IGF levels, and also prevent muscle cell death. LGD will assist in the accrual of new tissues and increase glycogen retention, similarly to a steroid.

Both together in my experience feels very much like using a much more advanced stack than what it is. It’s very worth it.
 
Metalingus

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Lgd and ostarine in a stack also makes you grow in a slightly different way from just steroids, which takes time to get used to and utilize. You gain ground in muscle tissue plates and the real estate they occupy during training via wicked pumps, but then it stays big when the pump goes away. Then the next session on that same exercise it happens again, and again, and again... as if you can feel the insertions being inflated daily and growing closer together.

that’s two totally different effects working in concert. Similar to using both steroids and IGF or GH. Ostarine will increase IGF levels, and also prevent muscle cell death. LGD will assist in the accrual of new tissues and increase glycogen retention, similarly to a steroid.

Both together in my experience feels very much like using a much more advanced stack than what it is. It’s very worth it.
Ripped Labz over here do a product that contains 15mg RAD 140, 10mg LGD and 10mg Osta per cap. What sort of results would you expect to see from taking that at two caps per day for 10-12 weeks?
 
RickyBlobby

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Ripped Labz over here do a product that contains 15mg RAD 140, 10mg LGD and 10mg Osta per cap. What sort of results would you expect to see from taking that at two caps per day for 10-12 weeks?
Probably like taking about 50mg of tbol a day if I had to guess
 
Metalingus

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Probably like taking about 50mg of tbol a day if I had to guess
Hmmm, still not exactly anything more than average then considering it'd be a long cycle of three separate, fairly highly dosed compounds!
 
RickyBlobby

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Hmmm, still not exactly anything more than average then considering it'd be a long cycle of three separate, fairly highly dosed compounds!
Yeah sarms are not that cost effective
 
Metalingus

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Yeah sarms are not that cost effective
£63.99 per 30 days at 30mg RAD140, 20mg LGD and 20mg Ostarine.

I'm tempted to try it as one last stand with SARMS. If I do 10-12 weeks with that and don't see satisfactory results then I'll know I never will.
 

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The strongest isnt depending on wether its a Sarm or not. Sarms are weaker than the stronger aas but a Sarm like lgd is probably on pair with some mild steroids but also safer.
You sure about that?? LGD seems to trash lipids and theres now concerns with Osta/Lgd regarding cell mutation and down regulation following research by Oxford University which is being released in 2019 is what im hearing.
 

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You sure about that?? LGD seems to trash lipids and theres now concerns with Osta/Lgd regarding cell mutation and down regulation following research by Oxford University which is being released in 2019 is what im hearing.
It does but everything returns to normal more easily with sarms. At least it always was the case for me
 

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