Permanent Hypogonadism Due to Excessive Aromatase?

[TeamSavage]

I was reading over an old post on the Swales protocol that included the following written by Swales:

"Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully)."

This got me thinking: Is it possible that cycles containing a high dose of test (which dramatically increasing aromatase activity) could cause Leydig toxicity and permanent hypogonadism? Would it make sense to use an AI on-cycle specifically for this reason?

It's scary to think that a test cycle could permanently damage the Leydig cells, but if Swales' statement is true then it suggests that this is possible (unless I'm missing something, which is also very possible).

Anybody have any more information on this?

 

[TeamSavage]

Bump

 

[TeamSavage]

Too many big words in the title? I should have titled it "Test May Destroy Your Nuts"...

 

[BigMattTx]

I'm interested in this as well. I really doubt it though. If this were true, you would see more people having problems down the road from cycles.

 

[Boris]

I'm interested in this as well. I really doubt it though. If this were true, you would see more people having problems down the road from cycles.

How do you know people aren't? E.g. one reason that the drug testers concluded Ben Johnson had been abusing steroids for a long time was that his natural testosterone levels were far below normal.

 

[BigMattTx]

ABuse is different than use my friend.

Perhaps very long cycles with many compounds and high dosages could do this but thats not news. I personally feel like if you run anabolics and stay in a shutdown state for too long that you will likely not recover fully and may need to be on HRT for the rest of your life.

 

[TeamSavage]

Specifically, I'm interested in information or research regarding aromatase being permanently toxic to Leydig cells.

 

[BigMattTx]

Just something to think about--aromatase is around even if you are all natural and not using steroids (to my knowledge) as it is responsible for test being converted to DHT and estro. This happens naturally and Id postulate that when you introduce exogenous test at large amounts, there is just more aromatase but the function is the same.

 

[TeamSavage]

Just something to think about--aromatase is around even if you are all natural and not using steroids (to my knowledge) as it is responsible for test being converted to DHT and estro. This happens naturally and Id postulate that when you introduce exogenous test at large amounts, there is just more aromatase but the function is the same.

Aromatase is only responsible for converting test to estrogen. Reductase is responsible for converting test to DHT. They're completely different.

You're correct that aromatase is naturally active all the time, but Swales is specifically talking about an excess of aromatase possibly being toxic to Leydig cells. We can postulate all day long but perhaps someone who is actually familiar with this phenomenon can chime in and set us straight.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

HCG @ Big Doses over a Long period of time = hypogonadism.

even those who used the Big Cat Protocol 5000,3000,1000 (whatever it was) seem to be alright. Since the birth of HCG in bodybuilding, most would use big doses every 2-4 months if at all. SWALE and others (eg myself) perfer to prevent shutdown before it occurs.

It's hard to say though. 250 is considered a 'replacement' dose if you will.

 

[TeamSavage]

even those who used the Big Cat Protocol 5000,3000,1000 (whatever it was) seem to be alright. Since the birth of HCG in bodybuilding, most would use big doses every 2-4 months if at all. SWALE and others (eg myself) perfer to prevent shutdown before it occurs.

It's hard to say though. 250 is considered a 'replacement' dose if you will.

Yeah, I understand that. I'm not asking about the Swales protocol. I'm asking about his statement regarding excessive aromatase being toxic to Leydig cells and causing primary hypogonadism. He's referring to excessive aromatase from HCG, but is it possible that excessive aromatase from other causes (such as high dose test use) could cause primary hypogonadism as well?

 

[xtraflossy]

Was it explained HOW this "perminate damage" occured?

I mean, were the cells beat up? Did the aromatase get upset over a card game and pull a knife?

I would think that like Everything else, excessive use of one side leads to reaction from the other. - not always perminate, butsometimes slow in recovering
When you use test for long periods of time, your leydid cells become less sensitive. In return, you'll not be able to produce optimum levels of test/LH until they become more active
Im sure excessive aromatase **due to HGC use** will either:
be used for aromatizing the elevated levels of testosterone (the body likes a certin ratio.)
or cause leydig cells to become desensitized and down-regulate

It's like supression I would assume.
(Sorry- I know you wanted to just have someone get to the damn point, but,.. you know,.. Im not doing anything beside work till 4:30 :icon_lol: )

 

[TeamSavage]

Nope, wasn't explained... All I have is the quote I posted up top. I haven't really heard this (excessive aromatase possibly causing permanent Leydig toxicity) discussed at all, so reading it took me by surprise.

 

[BigMattTx]

Nope, wasn't explained... All I have is the quote I posted up top. I haven't really heard this (excessive aromatase possibly causing permanent Leydig toxicity) discussed at all, so reading it took me by surprise.

Not to be an ignoramus but if you havent heard much about it, theres probably not too much to worry about.

I highly doubt you will find anyone that knows off hand about this other than the author of the article. Try to contact him or search for some studies...thats your best bet.

 

[jomi822]

I was under the impression that aromatase was stimulated by gonadatropins...which are supressed or shut down during steroid cycles. Of course there is much more testosterone for the aromatase present to bind to and convert while on cycle.

Perhaps Doctor John can comment. He will know if aromatase is stimualted by testosterone or by gonadatropins...im fairly sure it is gonadatropins however.

someone PM him and have him take a look.

 

[TeamSavage]

Perhaps Doctor John can comment. He will know if aromatase is stimualted by testosterone or by gonadatropins...im fairly sure it is gonadatropins however.

someone PM him and have him take a look.

Good idea. I PM'd him.