PCT - Inhibit Catabolism of Lean Muscle

MadStax

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What can be taken to stop lean muscle from being lost in PCT? I'll be rolling into a cruise, but would also like info for those who are restarting natural production. Thanks! 😀
 

Humbl3

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What can be taken to stop lean muscle from being lost in PCT? I'll be rolling into a cruise, but would also like info for those who are restarting natural production. Thanks! 😀
Maybe try looking into an ARA..
I’ve read logs here saying it helped keep gains during PCT. also maybe anabolic affect. Not really sure about restarting natural test production tho.
 
Whisky

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Tough one to answer as there’s some factors at play, mainly how far over your genetic limit you’ve gone on gear. In other words, whatever you do your body can’t hold that much lean mass over and above what you can do naturally so if you’ve pushed well past that level it’s gonna drop off.....

however, a calorie surplus and lifting heavy would be the two most beneficial to keep as much as possible.

any of the better natty supps or some peptides will help (peptides can especially if you respond well to gh)
 
KvanH

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1. Hitting the gym hard. Try to keep the same training intesity and frequence as on cycle, while keeping an eye on possibly lowered recovering ability.

2. SERM (and maybe hcg in the end of the cycle if not run throughout) for faster hormonal recovery.

3. Natural anabolics (AE, Vector, Epicathecin, creatine etc.).

4. Cortisol support supplement.

5. Test booster for added faster hormonal recovery.

These are the things that come to mind for me 🤔

There are other things to possibly add to pct such as AI's and prolactin control, but those aren't really for maintaining gains.
 
KvanH

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Tough one to answer as there’s some factors at play, mainly how far over your genetic limit you’ve gone on gear. In other words, whatever you do your body can’t hold that much lean mass over and above what you can do naturally so if you’ve pushed well past that level it’s gonna drop off.....

however, a calorie surplus and lifting heavy would be the two most beneficial to keep as much as possible.

any of the better natty supps or some peptides will help (peptides can especially if you respond well to gh)
Oh yea I forgot the calories. Eat enough!
 
MadStax

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1. Hitting the gym hard. Try to keep the same training intesity and frequence as on cycle, while keeping an eye on possibly lowered recovering ability.

2. SERM (and maybe hcg in the end of the cycle if not run throughout) for faster hormonal recovery.

3. Natural anabolics (AE, Vector, Epicathecin, creatine etc.).

4. Cortisol support supplement.

5. Test booster for added faster hormonal recovery.

These are the things that come to mind for me 🤔

There are other things to possibly add to pct such as AI's and prolactin control, but those aren't really for maintaining gains.
I'm going pretty hard with this cycle, but it's mostly recomp so far. My plan is to go into a cruise with Cardarine. Keep my calories high and training level the same. I'll keep up the Creatine, Glutamine, and Tairine.

Cortisol is not something I've ever looked into. I know it's a stress hormone, but didn't realize it impacted lean gains. I'll check it out, thanks!
 
Hyde

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What can be taken to stop lean muscle from being lost in PCT? I'll be rolling into a cruise, but would also like info for those who are restarting natural production. Thanks!
Staying on full blast

You can’t keep it all, right? But all the little things can add up. Not being in a deficit, training hard as you can safely (and heavier if anything since ability to recover from volume will lessen), getting your sleep, consuming enough protein through the day to promote optimal nitrogen retention, keeping carbs in the picture to promote more insulin release.

On the hormonal side, controlling cortisol with supps and more importantly managing stress is big for helping prevent unnecessary fat gain. Finding ways to elevate your insulin levels (that is the limit of that discussion on this board unfortunately) and a few iu of gh, or a combo like CJC & Mk, are things some guys do to help hold some size and leverage as well.
 
MadStax

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Staying on full blast

You can’t keep it all, right? But all the little things can add up. Not being in a deficit, training hard as you can safely (and heavier if anything since ability to recover from volume will lessen), getting your sleep, consuming enough protein through the day to promote optimal nitrogen retention, keeping carbs in the picture to promote more insulin release.

On the hormonal side, controlling cortisol with supps and more importantly managing stress is big for helping prevent unnecessary fat gain. Finding ways to elevate your insulin levels (that is the limit of that discussion on this board unfortunately) and a few iu of gh, or a combo like CJC & Mk, are things some guys do to help hold some size and leverage as well.
I am too scared to mess with slin. I'm saving my 1mg of IGF-1 LR3 for the end of my cycle. Will start at 20mcg/day SQ and move up if needed. I'm blasting all the HGH in this cycle at 6iu/day.
 

Karlrobert

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Oh yea I forgot the calories. Eat enough!
This is so important. In my experience even a good PCT won’t overcome going into a caloric deficit after a cycle. Keep up your calories during PCT and let your body get used to the increased weight. Then adjust from there
 
Mathb33

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Yeah I have been PCTing for almost 10 years and haven’t found anything yet to really prevent the backslide. I just accept it as the yin to a cycle’s yang.
At least you know it and you’re not lying to yourself. Obviously pct is like 3 step forward 2 steps backwards but if done correctly there’s still progress for sure... you’re a great exemple of it. Not everyone is capable of such commitment to training as hard and eating as good and doing everything right when they are PCTING / time off which I think is the key.
 
xR1pp3Rx

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i would point you to strategically timed ArA and Epichaos. also Ursa major could be a huge adjunct.
 

CroLifter

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I just have to say...if you want to do it without drugs then its a battle you will eventually lose, no 2 ways about it.

I can maintain with 125mg test and some mk677, but completely off no effing way, no way in hell...no it just aint happening, sorry.

There is a massive difference in anabolic activity in my body with even just 150mg of test a week. I could easily gain on that dose.


You can only try to prolong the time you are still holding onto some of the gains you made, imho just doing everything right as a natty lifter is the best you can do.

In my mind number one thing would be to keep your calories at maintenance or slightly higher. You derinitely dont wqnt to cut after the cycle.

you will get soft of course but at least you will lose less.
I hqve done 2 cycles and it seems that it took me about the same time after each one to revert to my pre cycle state.


@Mathb33 you can train all you want...but simply muscle just keeps coming off

but you already know that, otherwise you wouldnt B&C 😉
 
KvanH

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I just have to say...if you want to do it without drugs then its a battle you will eventually lose, no 2 ways about it.

You can only try to prolong the time you are still holding onto some of the gains you made, imho just doing everything right as a natty lifter is the best you can do.

In my mind number one thing would be to keep your calories at maintenance or slightly higher. You derinitely dont wqnt to cut after the cycle.

you will get soft of course but at least you will lose less.
I hqve done 2 cycles and it seems that it took me about the same time after each one to revert to my pre cycle state.


@Mathb33 you can train all you want...but simply muscle just keeps coming off

but you already know that, otherwise you wouldnt B&C 😉
Really? That's interesting and discouraging. I think the biggest factors here are how far beyond your natural limit you are, how fast the muscle came on on cycle and how strong/high of a dosage were the PED's taken.
 

CroLifter

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Really? That's interesting and discouraging. I think the biggest factors here are how far beyond your natural limit you are, how fast the muscle came on on cycle and how strong/high of a dosage were the PED's taken.
Yes but its also logic. If I say have 900 ng/dl test level on a "cruise" and 350 igf1 level, how am i supposed to maintain the same amount of anabolic activity when i come off and my test is 350 and igf 1 250?

I will agree with that it depends on where you are ced to your genetic potential...but that generic potential is not set in stone and is constantly variable and changing...your genetic potential at 20 will be different than your genetic potential at 40 etc.
 
MadStax

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I am 40 and I'll cruise on 75mg Test E e3d. I may pin 50mg Primo with each jab as well, as it is mild enough for a cruise imo. I had great success with Cardarine coming into this blast, so I'm confident another eight weeks of that will be fantastic! I'm eating more than I normally would on this cycle, but my training is no more intense than what I could do off cycle. I'm hopeful that I'll keep most of the lean mass!
 
Hyde

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Really? That's interesting and discouraging. I think the biggest factors here are how far beyond your natural limit you are, how fast the muscle came on on cycle and how strong/high of a dosage were the PED's taken.
I’d have to agree with CroLifter.

And all the things you suspect, I agree with as well. You have to consider waterweight will come off, and that is inevitable loss of size and strength but not muscle. You will also lose neurological strength supercharging (think mast or Tren) so you can’t lift as much that way, which will mean losing muscles over time as your loads lifted decrease. Lastly, you go from a supraphysiological androgen environment to a hypogonadal one, then hopefully to a suboptimal one. There just isn’t going to be the signaling necessary to maintain all of the new lean tissue.
 

CroLifter

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I’d have to agree with CroLifter.

And all the things you suspect, I agree with as well. You have to consider waterweight will come off, and that is inevitable loss of size and strength but not muscle. You will also lose neurological strength supercharging (think mast or Tren) so you can’t lift as much that way, which will mean losing muscles over time as your loads lifted decrease. Lastly, you go from a supraphysiological androgen environment to a hypogonadal one, then hopefully to a suboptimal one. There just isn’t going to be the signaling necessary to maintain all of the new lean tissue.
^^This is very true.

Think of it this way. 125mg of test e, thats about 80 - 90 mg of pure testosterone injected inyo your body every week.

When you go full natty, you get maybe 2mg a day, and of course now shbg is higher, so even less is free than it was before...

all in all when you think about it, its a miracle that we manage to keep even a tiny bit...i think a lot of what we keep is due to permanent changes that resulted from supraphysiologic androgen environment. Other than that, all logic points to the fact that my potential should be lower now that i am touching the hypogonadal range, yet somehow miracoulously i am managing to maintain a bit of a 3d look to my delts.
 
thebigt

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Really? That's interesting and discouraging. I think the biggest factors here are how far beyond your natural limit you are, how fast the muscle came on on cycle and how strong/high of a dosage were the PED's taken.
exactly...people say andro's are weak, but i have no trouble making decent/ sustainable gains that i am able to maintain.

the stronger the cycle the harder the crash.
 
KvanH

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Good comments my friends, thanks.

I'm not really disagreeing with anyone here. This sentence from Cro's post is what mosly triggered my response: "I hqve done 2 cycles and it seems that it took me about the same time after each one to revert to my pre cycle state."

Now reverting back to PRE cycle state is discouraging for me. Completely different thing than losing some of the gains acchieved on cycle.

I have no use for borrowed muscle. Unless I can borrow it for 5-10 years or something. Strength is a bit different, the achieved perfomance is allways there. If you lift 500 lbs ones, then you've done it and it can't be taken away. I have not made any PR's in years, but they're still there, the all time PR's.

This might be completely trivial, but what Cro said about the cruise levels anabolic activity not matching with the coming off anabolic activity. If you can grow in cruise, but only try to maintain when off, then the anabolic activity doesn't need to be the same. But sure, the difference in anabolism may still be too big to even maintain the muscle made on a higher androgenic enviroment, making this just trivial.
 
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Hyde

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Good comments my friends, thanks.

I'm not really disagreeing with anyone here. This sentence from Cro's post is what mosly triggered my response: "I hqve done 2 cycles and it seems that it took me about the same time after each one to revert to my pre cycle state."

Now reverting back to PRE cycle state is discouraging for me. Completely different thing than losing some of the gains acchieved on cycle.

I have no use for borrowed muscle. Unless I can borrow it for 5-10 years or something. Strength is a bit different, the achieved perfomance is allways there. If you lift 500 lbs ones, then you've done it and it can't be taken away. I have not made any PR's in years, but they're still there, the all time PR's.

This might be completely trivial, but what Cro said about the cruise levels anabolic activity not matching with the coming off anabolic activity. If you can grow in cruise, but only try to maintain when off, then the anabolic activity doesn't need to be the same. But sure, the difference in anabolism may still be too big to even maintain the muscle made on a higher androgenic enviroment, making this just trivial.
I’m not exactly sure I understand your last paragraph properly, but I think the perspective to maintain here is that nothing gold can stay. Nothing in this life is not constantly changing. Weather, time, your relationships, your body. Natural lifters change constantly too. Guys who cycle and guys who cruise both still have regressions after a blast.

Accomplishments, both in numbers lifted and placings in competition or a physique temporarily created are things that cannot be undone - they happened at a moment in time - but neither can they ever last. You need only look at a picture of Jay Cutler on the Olympia stage when he won, and a pic of now. He looks awesome now. He does not look how he did then.

It’s always temporary, always borrowed, in every scenario. The drugs just make the changes more extreme. But it’s up to you to decide if it’s worth it. I feel I am way bigger & stronger overall because of my years of anabolic usage and training, even when I am not at my greatest size or strength.
 
ANABOLICWRWLF

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I’m not exactly sure I understand your last paragraph properly, but I think the perspective to maintain here is that nothing gold can stay. Nothing in this life is not constantly changing. Weather, time, your relationships, your body. Natural lifters change constantly too. Guys who cycle and guys who cruise both still have regressions after a blast.

Accomplishments, both in numbers lifted and placings in competition or a physique temporarily created are things that cannot be undone - they happened at a moment in time - but neither can they ever last. You need only look at a picture of Jay Cutler on the Olympia stage when he won, and a pic of now. He looks awesome now. He does not look how he did then.

It’s always temporary, always borrowed, in every scenario. The drugs just make the changes more extreme. But it’s up to you to decide if it’s worth it. I feel I am way bigger & stronger overall because of my years of anabolic usage and training, even when I am not at my greatest size or strength.
This is good advice for pretty much all of life, not just one's strength/physique journey. Frost said it well as you mention, or in the words of Mike Palm of Agent Orange, "Now matter what you think or do or say, everything turns grey"
 
KvanH

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I’m not exactly sure I understand your last paragraph properly, but I think the perspective to maintain here is that nothing gold can stay. Nothing in this life is not constantly changing. Weather, time, your relationships, your body. Natural lifters change constantly too. Guys who cycle and guys who cruise both still have regressions after a blast.

Accomplishments, both in numbers lifted and placings in competition or a physique temporarily created are things that cannot be undone - they happened at a moment in time - but neither can they ever last. You need only look at a picture of Jay Cutler on the Olympia stage when he won, and a pic of now. He looks awesome now. He does not look how he did then.

It’s always temporary, always borrowed, in every scenario. The drugs just make the changes more extreme. But it’s up to you to decide if it’s worth it. I feel I am way bigger & stronger overall because of my years of anabolic usage and training, even when I am not at my greatest size or strength.
Well english is not my native language so that might have an affect sometimes. I was just going a bit deeper in the CroLifter's comment on the differerence in anabolic activity when on cruise and when coming off. But like I said, it's quite trivial.

I agree with everything you're saying here. We were just looking this from a bit different time scale I think. For example if I would start a cycle now and get bigger and stronger and end the cycle on march. And then would revert back to where I am now inside next year. That scenario would not be worth it for me at all.

"I am way bigger & stronger overall because of my years of anabolic usage and training, even when I am not at my greatest size or strength."

This is in the line of worth it for me. Overall being more athletic than I would with out gear. Of course I'm gonna lose my muscle and athletic ability as I get old, but shouldn't happen in years (unless in case of injury etc.)
 
Hyde

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Well english is not my native language so that might have an affect sometimes. I was just going a bit deeper in the CroLifter's comment on the differerence in anabolic activity when on cruise and when coming off. But like I said, it's quite trivial.

I agree with everything you're saying here. We were just looking this from a bit different time scale I think. For example if I would start a cycle now and get bigger and stronger and end the cycle on march. And then would revert back to where I am now inside next year. That scenario would not be worth it for me at all.

"I am way bigger & stronger overall because of my years of anabolic usage and training, even when I am not at my greatest size or strength."

This is in the line of worth it for me. Overall being more athletic than I would with out gear. Of course I'm gonna lose my muscle and athletic ability as I get old, but shouldn't happen in years (unless in case of injury etc.)
BUT I have never stopped cycling (or training). That is key. The longest hormonal gaps ever between cycles is 5 months for me, usually 3-4. I felt the losses after 5 months recently were just a bit too much.

If you only want to do one cycle a year... I do not think you will be able to make meaningful longterm progress (that you couldn’t have made naturally). My process is 3 steps forward, 2 back. I fear one 12-week cycle in a 12 month period would land you 3 steps back. That is what I have seen in others. They just run one cycle for summer to have abs, and that’s enough for them. But they’re always like sub-180lbs. Which is fine! We all have different priorities. But it’s not the same as using more frequently.
 
ANABOLICWRWLF

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BUT I have never stopped cycling (or training). That is key. The longest hormonal gaps ever between cycles is 5 months for me, usually 3-4. I felt the losses after 5 months recently were just a bit too much.

If you only want to do one cycle a year... I do not think you will be able to make meaningful longterm progress (that you couldn’t have made naturally). My process is 3 steps forward, 2 back. I fear one 12-week cycle in a 12 month period would land you 3 steps back. That is what I have seen in others. They just run one cycle for summer to have abs, and that’s enough for them. But they’re always like sub-180lbs. Which is fine! We all have different priorities. But it’s not the same as using more frequently.
Interesting. I wonder if training, diet, etc are all kept high after cycle if one could still maintain a decent amount of size at a single cycle per year as opposed to two or three? At 5'10" I can sit at a decently lean (second row abs) 205# but would really like to be at 225-230. In your opinion Hyde is that a size that could be maintained without multiple cycles per year assuming training and diet stay in an appropriate range?
 
MadStax

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Interesting. I wonder if training, diet, etc are all kept high after cycle if one could still maintain a decent amount of size at a single cycle per year as opposed to two or three? At 5'10" I can sit at a decently lean (second row abs) 205# but would really like to be at 225-230. In your opinion Hyde is that a size that could be maintained without multiple cycles per year assuming training and diet stay in an appropriate range?
This depends on your body. 205 is where I reach my natural limit at 5'11" and roughly 10-11% body fat. It doesn't seem to matter what I do diet/training wise, I can't break through that plateau. I'm hoping this cycle will get me beyond that, but even if it doesn't, I'll be happy just to get back there! I have a friend the same height and age (two days older) who easily packs on 225-230lbs at 8-9% body fat and he's never done a PED in his life. Genetics are a b!tch...
 

CroLifter

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BUT I have never stopped cycling (or training). That is key. The longest hormonal gaps ever between cycles is 5 months for me, usually 3-4. I felt the losses after 5 months recently were just a bit too much.

If you only want to do one cycle a year... I do not think you will be able to make meaningful longterm progress (that you couldn’t have made naturally). My process is 3 steps forward, 2 back. I fear one 12-week cycle in a 12 month period would land you 3 steps back. That is what I have seen in others. They just run one cycle for summer to have abs, and that’s enough for them. But they’re always like sub-180lbs. Which is fine! We all have different priorities. But it’s not the same as using more frequently.
For me using more frequently would create significant h&h issues, i would have to constantly drain blood, even an 8 week cycle ( at around 300mg a week combined average weekly dose) left me at 54% hematocrit, up from 49%.

And for me personally losses are dramatic in the 1st 30 to 60 days post cycle, after that i seem to be back to baseline and i dont lose anymore.
 
Mathb33

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This depends on your body. 205 is where I reach my natural limit at 5'11" and roughly 10-11% body fat. It doesn't seem to matter what I do diet/training wise, I can't break through that plateau. I'm hoping this cycle will get me beyond that, but even if it doesn't, I'll be happy just to get back there! I have a friend the same height and age (two days older) who easily packs on 225-230lbs at 8-9% body fat and he's never done a PED in his life. Genetics are a b!tch...
This is certainly not your plateau once you add anabolics. You can go much much beyond that even with bad genetics if you’re on gear! You’ll get it for sure.
 
MadStax

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This is certainly not your plateau once you add anabolics. You can go much much beyond that even with bad genetics if you’re on gear! You’ll get it for sure.
Thanks! I appreciate the encouragement! 😃

I too believe I will exceed my previous plateau. My T was almost nonexistent then. I abused my body through my late teens and twenties with copious amounts of drugs and alcohol, poor diet, and dumb training. I'm lucky to be alive and definitely grateful for the health I have today!
 
Mathb33

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Thanks! I appreciate the encouragement! 😃

I too believe I will exceed my previous plateau. My T was almost nonexistent then. I abused my body through my late teens and twenties with copious amounts of drugs and alcohol, poor diet, and dumb training. I'm lucky to be alive and definitely grateful for the health I have today!
hey been there done that. Alcoholic from 19 to 28. Was maybe drinking 362 days out 365 for 10 years and I loved drugs too. I’m a new man now and glad I made it out alive. Congrats for leaving that toxic lifestyle and good luck reaching your goals :) we are our only limitations!
 
ANABOLICWRWLF

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Same here, 17-27 probably took 15-20 years offa me. I kicked booze for iron and love every minute of it! I was sober 4 years and now I drink occasionally but it's completely different than it was before when I was drinking from when I came to until I passed out again.

The best is seeing my old drinking buddies who look like total **** now. Reminds me I'm on the right track!
 
Hyde

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Some great convo in here!

Interesting. I wonder if training, diet, etc are all kept high after cycle if one could still maintain a decent amount of size at a single cycle per year as opposed to two or three? At 5'10" I can sit at a decently lean (second row abs) 205# but would really like to be at 225-230. In your opinion Hyde is that a size that could be maintained without multiple cycles per year assuming training and diet stay in an appropriate range?
230lbs/105kg at 5’10” and two rows of abs has to be around 12% bf or so...

For me, no way, if it was ever possible for me that ship has sailed - for someone with much better genetics, more discipline, I think perhaps. That’s just opinion, but some guys can really do incredible things. I would say they would be outliers, and 220 vs 230 here is huge - we are talking about 10 (TEN) solid pounds of actual mjuscle difference, so that would matter too.

A fella intelligently using some injectable carnitine, insulin, gh and peptide protocols throughout the other portions of the year would have a huge leg up here as well. More pins, the furthest thing from natty as it gets, but not using AAS/hormones/SARMs.
 
KvanH

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This depends on your body. 205 is where I reach my natural limit at 5'11" and roughly 10-11% body fat. It doesn't seem to matter what I do diet/training wise, I can't break through that plateau. I'm hoping this cycle will get me beyond that, but even if it doesn't, I'll be happy just to get back there! I have a friend the same height and age (two days older) who easily packs on 225-230lbs at 8-9% body fat and he's never done a PED in his life. Genetics are a b!tch...
Yeah, there really can be an amazing difference in genetics. I've come across a few 'genetic freaks' in my life, but this brings to mind this Nigerian dude I met years ago.

He was about 6'2 and I saw him weight 230 on scale and he was max 10% bodyfat in my estimation, possibly less (25 yo). Very ripped and muscular. We played basketball alot and when I asked him about his training regimen and weight lifting, he said he had never lifted weights. Only played basketball and sometimes did some push ups and sit ups here and there. I obviously thought he is bullshitting as I had been doing all kinds of athletics all my life and lifting heavy for some years and he was way bigger and more ripped than me (23 yo at the time). But when I took him to the college gym and I saw him grab some small dumbells and waving them in the air like an idiot, I realised this dude really hasn't done any weight training ever. It's crazy the difference in genetics.
 
MadStax

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Eat more. Up the Protein and fat
I can't get more protein in. I'm averaging 220g/day and that's literally packing it in! I have upped my fats by adding 2 tbs each of olive oil and coconut oil per day. I also bought 2% milk and am taking 3.6g blended omega 3, 6, and 9.

My biggest problem has always been my inability to eat for the first and last 3-4 hours of the day. If I'm able to eat by 11am, it's a good day. Forcing food down just ruins my appetite for the rest of the day. I never could find a way around it. If I eat too close to bedtime, I get reflux and then I'm toast for days. I'm certain if I could get a meal down in the morning, I could make serious gains! My stomach just hates me! Lol
 

Rebuild

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I can't get more protein in. I'm averaging 220g/day and that's literally packing it in! I have upped my fats by adding 2 tbs each of olive oil and coconut oil per day. I also bought 2% milk and am taking 3.6g blended omega 3, 6, and 9.

My biggest problem has always been my inability to eat for the first and last 3-4 hours of the day. If I'm able to eat by 11am, it's a good day. Forcing food down just ruins my appetite for the rest of the day. I never could find a way around it. If I eat too close to bedtime, I get reflux and then I'm toast for days. I'm certain if I could get a meal down in the morning, I could make serious gains! My stomach just hates me! Lol
Have you tried walking fasted in the morning right after you wake up? It will get your appetite revved up.
 
MadStax

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Have you tried walking fasted in the morning right after you wake up? It will get your appetite revved up.
I walk my dog first thing every morning. He knows when it's time to go! I swear he can read a clock. About 10ish min walk at a brisk, almost jog, pace.

I am pretty sure the alcohol permanently ruined my guts. I get an 8-9 hour window each day and I usually manage to get a fair bit down.
 
Renew1

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I can't get more protein in. I'm averaging 220g/day and that's literally packing it in! I have upped my fats by adding 2 tbs each of olive oil and coconut oil per day. I also bought 2% milk and am taking 3.6g blended omega 3, 6, and 9.

My biggest problem has always been my inability to eat for the first and last 3-4 hours of the day. If I'm able to eat by 11am, it's a good day. Forcing food down just ruins my appetite for the rest of the day. I never could find a way around it. If I eat too close to bedtime, I get reflux and then I'm toast for days. I'm certain if I could get a meal down in the morning, I could make serious gains! My stomach just hates me! Lol
Have you tried any of the OTC Reflux meds?
 
MadStax

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Have you tried any of the OTC Reflux meds?
Yeah, I take omeprazole every morning. For a while they had me on an anti-nausea med when it was real bad and with that stuff I could eat anything, anytime and be totally fine. It's not something you can take long term though.
 
Hyde

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I can't get more protein in. I'm averaging 220g/day and that's literally packing it in! I have upped my fats by adding 2 tbs each of olive oil and coconut oil per day. I also bought 2% milk and am taking 3.6g blended omega 3, 6, and 9.

My biggest problem has always been my inability to eat for the first and last 3-4 hours of the day. If I'm able to eat by 11am, it's a good day. Forcing food down just ruins my appetite for the rest of the day. I never could find a way around it. If I eat too close to bedtime, I get reflux and then I'm toast for days. I'm certain if I could get a meal down in the morning, I could make serious gains! My stomach just hates me! Lol
Believe me when I say I hear & understand your plight. I have always found overreating consistently (bulking) tougher than cutting. Cutting is a degree of abstinence, but it doesn’t actually require action. To grow, you MUST find a way to eat more than you need, day in and out. Smashing 7,000 calories once does nothing when the other days are 3,500, right? It takes a lot of consistent hard work.

I’m the same way as far as no appetite in morning. It tends to only worsen if you embrace it and don’t eventually force a meal. A trick I learned from Eric Lilliebridge is to start every day with a blended shake. You can get 1,000 calories & a bolus of protein to start the day here based on your choice of protein powders, milk, nut butter, bananas, berries, honey, oats, olive oil, avocado, dextrose. It’s sweet and liquid so it is much easier to force than a solid meal, and the simple sugars help to cause a ghrelin release sooner (especially if you choose non-filling fats like olive oil over more satiating ones like pb or avocado).

Make sure you use Berberine or a GDA product before that or some other meals that you need help getting hunger for the next meal, and just to manage blood glucose some.

Pepcid AC in the evening, or perhaps something stronger for a spell like Nexium, could be a temporary solution. I need to play with it more, but Boston Lloyd mentioned using Glutamine at 5g 3x a day to rid his acid reflux. I used some the other morning with the supps I take before fasted cardio and I didn’t get any heartburn the way I usually do. So that could be a really cheap healthy solution to acid reflux potentially.
 

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I can't get more protein in. I'm averaging 220g/day and that's literally packing it in! I have upped my fats by adding 2 tbs each of olive oil and coconut oil per day. I also bought 2% milk and am taking 3.6g blended omega 3, 6, and 9.

My biggest problem has always been my inability to eat for the first and last 3-4 hours of the day. If I'm able to eat by 11am, it's a good day. Forcing food down just ruins my appetite for the rest of the day. I never could find a way around it. If I eat too close to bedtime, I get reflux and then I'm toast for days. I'm certain if I could get a meal down in the morning, I could make serious gains! My stomach just hates me! Lol
I have started training at 16 yo at 165lbs. At my biggest i was around 250 (natty at 19/20, not very lean but decent).

You sometimes have to man up and force it. I have 0 appetite in the morning, but i still cram at least a 1000 kcal for breakfast, i would be losing weight if i didnt do that. Even as a natty i have to remind myself to eat not to lose weight. Working a desk job. Crazy.

250-300g pasta, a tuna can and a big glass of yoghurt...some dark chocolate for dessert, thats easily 1500kcal...thats a regular meal for me, i just have crazy caloric demand.

On cycle i eat more but because i also force it, but i also noticed that on cycle more seems to stick on me of what i eat, as if i use more of what i consume. I know that with tren thats definitely the case, but perhaps to an extent it works that way with other aas also.

edit: yeah yeah...i know we cant call ourselves natty anymore. I meant off cycle 😆
 

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2 scoops of whey in 12oz of water in the morning is 50g. That will inhibit appetite for rest of day?
 

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Yeah, once the nausea starts there is no way around it.
Hard boil some eggs and eat one in the morning. Then 2 a couple days later. Then 3 and so on... work up to it. Then mix the calories up. It’s a head game, obviously. You’ll be fine. Change slow and steady if it’s in your head
 
MadStax

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Hard boil some eggs and eat one in the morning. Then 2 a couple days later. Then 3 and so on... work up to it. Then mix the calories up. It’s a head game, obviously. You’ll be fine. Change slow and steady if it’s in your head
I'm pretty sure it's not in my head. Like I said, they had me on an anti-nausea med and I was eating a full meal first thing with no problems. As soon as I rolled off of that pill, things reverted back to the way they've been. It's been several years now. Maybe even ten. I do like boiled eggs, so I'll give it a shot.
 

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I'm pretty sure it's not in my head. Like I said, they had me on an anti-nausea med and I was eating a full meal first thing with no problems. As soon as I rolled off of that pill, things reverted back to the way they've been. It's been several years now. Maybe even ten. I do like boiled eggs, so I'll give it a shot.
Nausea definitely sucks. Sorry man. Either way it will always hold you back so hopefully a slow, deliberate change will help you get you to your goals. It’s not all or nothing.
 

Drolball

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I'm pretty sure it's not in my head. Like I said, they had me on an anti-nausea med and I was eating a full meal first thing with no problems. As soon as I rolled off of that pill, things reverted back to the way they've been. It's been several years now. Maybe even ten. I do like boiled eggs, so I'll give it a shot.
Should try CBD for nausea if you haven't already.
 

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