Next cycle - Test, Deca, EQ

[trumac]

So do you think test E for 12 weeks isn’t long enough?

Seems long enough I would assume

 

[Whisky]

So do you think test E for 12 weeks isn’t long enough?

its not really a question of test e for 12 weeks not being enough bro. A 12 week cycle is the most anyone who isn’t on trt or b n c should do as the longer your suppressed the harder the recovery and quicker you’ll be on trt.

12 weeks is more than enough for gains. The point being made is that after the 12 weeks you want to clear all the compounds (your natural test can’t restart whilst you have compounds in your system) quickly so that your pct can start and your natural production can ramp back up.

with long esters they clear slower, you spend longer with sub optimal hormone levels and thus lose more of what you gained.

test e is a 4-5 week clearance on average. Not bad but test prop is more like 5-8 days so obviously much better. That’s why people will switch to prop for the last 4 weeks of a cycle.

npp mentioned above is a shorter ester version of deca so would do the same thing.

 

[beefyfan]

I like a lowish combo of test, tren and mast w/an oral kick start. If you are going to use deca or eq I'd throw in a daily dose of proviron as well. That is if you value having a functioning prick. I'd run the test two weeks longer than the 19-nors and the proviron 2 weeks past the test. Then start the pct.

 

[Jinsun]

So do you think test E for 12 weeks isn’t long enough?

Bro, at this point I am really wondering; are you using your brains or are you just a troll? How are you going to use test e for 12 weeks if at 12 weeks you want to start PCT?

If ya'll want to continue this nonsense, go ahead. But he is effectively using you instead of his own head. Also, remember, he has a trustworthy NPC winning coach, whom he should be asking all of this.

I'm out. And good luck bro, you're going to need it. Hope all turns out the way you want it to.

 

[saderboy80]

Bro, at this point I am really wondering; are you using your brains or are you just a troll? How are you going to use test e for 12 weeks if at 12 weeks you want to start PCT?

If ya'll want to continue this nonsense, go ahead. But he is effectively using you instead of his own head. Also, remember, he has a trustworthy NPC winning coach, whom he should be asking all of this.

I'm out. And good luck bro, you're going to need it. Hope all turns out the way you want it to.

Well you don’t have to go around being a prick.

Like I’ve said multiple times,I’ve listened to your advice and am asking my coach if there are more viable options to bulk with instead of EQ.

 

[Hyde]

As someone who PCT’s, I take my last test e shot about 2.5 weeks before PCT which really seems to work well. So I take test e for 10 weeks for ~13wk cycle.

 

[saderboy80]

As someone who PCT’s, I take my last test e shot about 2.5 weeks before PCT which really seems to work well. So I take test e for 10 weeks for ~13wk cycle.

Yeah that makes sense to do it that way!

 

[CroLifter]

Well you don’t have to go around being a prick.

Like I’ve said multiple times,I’ve listened to your advice and am asking my coach if there are more viable options to bulk with instead of EQ.

Listen man the problem is that you at first said you wanna cut, then lean gains, now you wanna bulk.. at 1st you wanted to run test, mast and var...now you want test and deca??

The problem is that i understand you. I was like that as a kid and would deive whole forum crazy with numerous threads i would start trying to decide which piece of equipment i should get my hands on (stuff completely unrelated to bodybuilding). But i was like that when i was 12 years old.

Bro if you wanna bulk run test and deca for 12 weeks how the hell can you go wrong with that?? If you want you can add dianabol or sth similar at the end to reap extra gains as thwy stall upon myostain elevation

as far as test and deca doses go...i dont see why people are against low test higher deca...in my mind its logical to run the amount of test which will provide you with most estrogen (for growth, estrogen promotes mass gains) you can handle without using an AI...whether thats 200mg,300mg...and then run deca on top of it at a fixed whatever dose since its a long ester...and in the end 20-40mg dbol a day.
Why would you want a ton of dht in your body..

If you really wanna have a killer bulk add in gh or peptides...thats it, for an all out bulk why would you even think that you need anything else??

Train hard and eat like crazy, get enough sleep. Drugs are just catalysts.

Sh1t aint that complicated really

I like a lowish combo of test, tren and mast w/an oral kick start. If you are going to use deca or eq I'd throw in a daily dose of proviron as well. That is if you value having a functioning prick. I'd run the test two weeks longer than the 19-nors and the proviron 2 weeks past the test. Then start the pct.

Thats one insane combo! I freaking love them but i add in mast towards the end as it doesnt do anything for me other than improve my aesthetics...so i do it when the other two had already done most of the work.
Hell on your hair, heart, whole of your body really...especially tren and mast, but also the test with its conversion to dht...downright toxic combination.

But i recomp... @saderboy80 wants to bulk...so go with what i said above man

 

[saderboy80]

Listen man the problem is that you at first said you wanna cut, then lean gains, now you wanna bulk.. at 1st you wanted to run test, mast and var...now you want test and deca??

The problem is that i understand you. I was like that as a kid and would deive whole forum crazy with numerous threads i would start trying to decide which piece of equipment i should get my hands on (stuff completely unrelated to bodybuilding). But i was like that when i was 12 years old.

Bro if you wanna bulk run test and deca for 12 weeks how the hell can you go wrong with that?? If you want you can add dianabol or sth similar at the end to reap extra gains as thwy stall upon myostain elevation

as far as test and deca doses go...i dont see why people are against low test higher deca...in my mind its logical to run the amount of test which will provide you with most estrogen (for growth, estrogen promotes mass gains) you can handle without using an AI...whether thats 200mg,300mg...and then run deca on top of it at a fixed whatever dose since its a long ester...and in the end 20-40mg dbol a day.
Why would you want a ton of dht in your body..

If you really wanna have a killer bulk add in gh or peptides...thats it, for an all out bulk why would you even think that you need anything else??

Train hard and eat like crazy, get enough sleep. Drugs are just catalysts.

Sh1t aint that complicated really



Thats one insane combo! I freaking love them but i add in mast towards the end as it doesnt do anything for me other than improve my aesthetics...so i do it when the other two had already done most of the work.
Hell on your hair, heart, whole of your body really...especially tren and mast, but also the test with its conversion to dht...downright toxic combination.

But i recomp... @saderboy80 wants to bulk...so go with what i said above man

Well I started off the original post saying that “I want to do a slow clean bulk”. Sorry if that was confusing but my goal here was never to cut.

The goal is to recomp! Yes, my coach and I originally planned for me to compete in the men’s physique category so I just needed a little more size but nothing crazy (hence the test, masteron and var). We then changed our goals and we decided that I should aim for classic physique (which if I can’t get big enough I can always drop back down to physique). Hence the drastic change in cycle wanting to do test, Deca and EQ.

 

[beefyfan]

Listen man the problem is that you at first said you wanna cut, then lean gains, now you wanna bulk.. at 1st you wanted to run test, mast and var...now you want test and deca??

The problem is that i understand you. I was like that as a kid and would deive whole forum crazy with numerous threads i would start trying to decide which piece of equipment i should get my hands on (stuff completely unrelated to bodybuilding). But i was like that when i was 12 years old.

Bro if you wanna bulk run test and deca for 12 weeks how the hell can you go wrong with that?? If you want you can add dianabol or sth similar at the end to reap extra gains as thwy stall upon myostain elevation

as far as test and deca doses go...i dont see why people are against low test higher deca...in my mind its logical to run the amount of test which will provide you with most estrogen (for growth, estrogen promotes mass gains) you can handle without using an AI...whether thats 200mg,300mg...and then run deca on top of it at a fixed whatever dose since its a long ester...and in the end 20-40mg dbol a day.
Why would you want a ton of dht in your body..

If you really wanna have a killer bulk add in gh or peptides...thats it, for an all out bulk why would you even think that you need anything else??

Train hard and eat like crazy, get enough sleep. Drugs are just catalysts.

Sh1t aint that complicated really



Thats one insane combo! I freaking love them but i add in mast towards the end as it doesnt do anything for me other than improve my aesthetics...so i do it when the other two had already done most of the work.
Hell on your hair, heart, whole of your body really...especially tren and mast, but also the test with its conversion to dht...downright toxic combination.

But i recomp... @saderboy80 wants to bulk...so go with what i said above man

I only ran 250 of each for 10 weeks jumpstarted with 20mg's of superdrol for the 1st 4 weeks. PCT and recovery went great. Labs were normal within a few months. The cycle I ran the next year was test and deca jumpstarted with dbol. Blood pressure shot up to 190/110 and it impacted my hearts ejaction fraction. Suffice to say, I went into pct, added more fruits and veggies. Never missed cardio sessions and started 10mg's of lisinopril. 6 months later, my BP was typically around 120/80 occasionally 110/70 and ejacton fraction was back in range. Years later, I'm still on lisinopril at 10mg's.

 

[CroLifter]

I only ran 250 of each for 10 weeks jumpstarted with 20mg's of superdrol for the 1st 4 weeks. PCT and recovery went great. Labs were normal within a few months. The cycle I ran the next year was test and deca jumpstarted with dbol. Blood pressure shot up to 190/110 and it impacted my hearts ejaction fraction. Suffice to say, I went into pct, added more fruits and veggies. Never missed cardio sessions and started 10mg's of lisinopril. 6 months later, my BP was typically around 120/80 occasionally 110/70 and ejacton fraction was back in range. Years later, I'm still on lisinopril at 10mg's.

How much did ypur ejection fraction go down?

I know most dont want to admit but it does go down during cycle and while on AAS as the heart itself gets bulkier and the walls get thicker and therefore flex less, like an older, stiffer membrane pump like the one you got on your boat.

Thats not tren per se, its due to anabolic nature of comppunds you used, tren, siperdrol...you bulked up your heart...fortunately it atrophies when you come off, just like anything else hahaha but when it comes to the heart that muscle wasting post cycle is a good thing.

I only ran 100mg tren a a week with 250 test and my bp stayee 120/70. I dont know where my comfortable limit for tren would be, around 150-200mg a week i guess.


Weird that you have lasting sides... for me 500 test was much more side ridden than test/tren a...i lookee miles better on this tiny stack of test and tren, felt insane, gains were at least twice as fast, only sides were sweating and a bit of lighter sleep.


Anyway...i learned that i really need to keep doses down if i want to have a good time and not wreak havoc on my body...if that neans i use doses most would laugh at, who cares...for the reasons i am doing it it is more than enough...that 1st cycle like i said disaster, 500 tesr, felt like the drugs were in control, sides all over the place,

this 2nd time, another story, i really felt in control of the cycle and felt like it was indeed "elevating" my life

 

[saderboy80]

How much did ypur ejection fraction go down?

I know most dont want to admit but it does go down during cycle and while on AAS as the heart itself gets bulkier and the walls get thicker and therefore flex less, like an older, stiffer membrane pump like the one you got on your boat.

Thats not tren per se, its due to anabolic nature of comppunds you used, tren, siperdrol...you bulked up your heart...fortunately it atrophies when you come off, just like anything else hahaha but when it comes to the heart that muscle wasting post cycle is a good thing.

I only ran 100mg tren a a week with 250 test and my bp stayee 120/70. I dont know where my comfortable limit for tren would be, around 150-200mg a week i guess.


Weird that you have lasting sides... for me 500 test was much more side ridden than test/tren a...i lookee miles better on this tiny stack of test and tren, felt insane, gains were at least twice as fast, only sides were sweating and a bit of lighter sleep.


Anyway...i learned that i really need to keep doses down if i want to have a good time and not wreak havoc on my body...if that neans i use doses most would laugh at, who cares...for the reasons i am doing it it is more than enough...that 1st cycle like i said disaster, 500 tesr, felt like the drugs were in control, sides all over the place,

this 2nd time, another story, i really felt in control of the cycle and felt like it was indeed "elevating" my life

Cant regular cardio slow of the heart side effects? I know regular cardio and athletes tend to get larger left ventricles then the average person. But that would be beneficial to them.

So can cardio, fish oil, resveratrol, and coQ10 reduce the cardiomegaly? Or are the best suited for balancing lipids..?

 

[saderboy80]

Alright guys thanks for all the great advice and both the positive and negative criticisms. I feel like I’ve learned some valuable information.

So regardless of the cycle I run, it will be the most gear I’ve ran at once. What’s the consensus on the best all in one ancillary product?

Currently I take:
Multivitamin
Vit B
Vit C
Vit E
Fish oil
Resveratrol
CoQ 10
TUDCA
Cissus
Glucosamine and chondroitin
MSM
Collagen
Saw palmetto
Turmeric
Alpha lipoic acid
Milk thistle

I think that’s all lol

 

[CroLifter]

Cant regular cardio slow of the heart side effects? I know regular cardio and athletes tend to get larger left ventricles then the average person. But that would be beneficial to them.

So can cardio, fish oil, resveratrol, and coQ10 reduce the cardiomegaly? Or are the best suited for balancing lipids..?

No, because cardiomegaly is a direct side effect of the anabolic nature of the drugs. Muscle grow, heart is a muscle...

Above mentioned supplements will help slow down formation of atheromatic plaque, but they wont do anything to prevent cardiomegaly and/or potential future heart failure, except cardio of course which helps regardless.

But just like your muscles atrophy post cycle, so does the heart, i got echo results to confirm that heart gets smaller after cycle (normalization), in fact mine is naturally about 10% smaller than it was after 12 weeks of 500mg test a week.


I have already said multiple times...the only way to prevent cardiomegaly from aas is to inhibit androgens from binding to ARs in the cardiac tissue...therefore, we need a compound which would act just like for example nolva does in breast tissue, we neee compound that would bind to the AR in cardiac tissue, prwvent anything else from bindin and also not transcribe the effects.

Some have told me that estrogen does this a little bit, protect the heart from androgens.



Take a look at this: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha.114.012066

The stronger the androgen, higher its effect on cardiac hypertrophy will be. Hence dht is the worst, because of highest binding affinity. Worst for the heart, yet useless for building muscle, what a great little thing to have lots of lol.

Also for example if you combine deca with finasteride the effects of cardiomegaly wre worse...as using finasteride with nandrolone makes it more androgenic.


With aas induc3d cardiomegaly the problem is not just that the heart gets larger...endurance athlete hearts get lsrger, but that is eccentric hypertrophy (to the outside) and is a result of exercise.

Aas are of course anabolic and they build tissue, therefore heart walls get larger, ie. Thicker. They dont flex as well anymore as they get thicker, and thereofre the percentage of blood that the left ventricle pumps on every stroke (ejection fraction) goes down. Also, due to the concentric (to the inside) hypertrophy from aas, the volume of the LV itself may get smaller. So its a compounding problem. Add to that high bp, narrowed arteries, thick blood...you can see why that stuff can end very, VERY bad.


Cardio of course will help keep some of the elasticity of the wall and may provide additional eccentric hypertophy which will counteract concentric hypertrophy happening as a result of drug use.

 

[saderboy80]

No, because cardiomegaly is a direct side effect of the anabolic nature of the drugs. Muscle grow, heart is a muscle...

Above mentioned supplements will help slow down formation of atheromatic plaque, but they wont do anything to prevent cardiomegaly and/or potential future heart failure, except cardio of course which helps regardless.

But just like your muscles atrophy post cycle, so does the heart, i got echo results to confirm that heart gets smaller after cycle (normalization), in fact mine is naturally about 10% smaller than it was after 12 weeks of 500mg test a week.


I have already said multiple times...the only way to prevent cardiomegaly from aas is to inhibit androgens from binding to ARs in the cardiac tissue...therefore, we need a compound which would act just like for example nolva does in breast tissue, we neee compound that would bind to the AR in cardiac tissue, prwvent anything else from bindin and also not transcribe the effects.

Some have told me that estrogen does this a little bit, protect the heart from androgens.



Take a look at this: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha.114.012066

The stronger the androgen, higher its effect on cardiac hypertrophy will be. Hence dht is the worst, because of highest binding affinity. Worst for the heart, yet useless for building muscle, what a great little thing to have lots of lol.

Also for example if you combine deca with finasteride the effects of cardiomegaly wre worse...as using finasteride with nandrolone makes it more androgenic.


With aas induc3d cardiomegaly the problem is not just that the heart gets larger...endurance athlete hearts get lsrger, but that is eccentric hypertrophy (to the outside) and is a result of exercise.

Aas are of course anabolic and they build tissue, therefore heart walls get larger, ie. Thicker. They dont flex as well anymore as they get thicker, and thereofre the percentage of blood that the left ventricle pumps on every stroke (ejection fraction) goes down. Also, due to the concentric (to the inside) hypertrophy from aas, the volume of the LV itself may get smaller. So its a compounding problem. Add to that high bp, narrowed arteries, thick blood...you can see why that stuff can end very, VERY bad.


Cardio of course will help keep some of the elasticity of the wall and may provide additional eccentric hypertophy which will counteract concentric hypertrophy happening as a result of drug use.

But it’s only cardiomegaly of the atria and right ventricle. LV hypertrophy is a marker of how fit a person is. But when your left ventricle grows, not on steroids, it also makes the interior of the ventricle bigger and therefore an advantage physically.

With steroids cardiomegaly is definitely bad, as you stated you get cardiomegaly from the interior and exterior leading to slowed EF.

This was a good read! I didn’t know it was reversible to some degree.

 

[saderboy80]

No, because cardiomegaly is a direct side effect of the anabolic nature of the drugs. Muscle grow, heart is a muscle...

Above mentioned supplements will help slow down formation of atheromatic plaque, but they wont do anything to prevent cardiomegaly and/or potential future heart failure, except cardio of course which helps regardless.

But just like your muscles atrophy post cycle, so does the heart, i got echo results to confirm that heart gets smaller after cycle (normalization), in fact mine is naturally about 10% smaller than it was after 12 weeks of 500mg test a week.


I have already said multiple times...the only way to prevent cardiomegaly from aas is to inhibit androgens from binding to ARs in the cardiac tissue...therefore, we need a compound which would act just like for example nolva does in breast tissue, we neee compound that would bind to the AR in cardiac tissue, prwvent anything else from bindin and also not transcribe the effects.

Some have told me that estrogen does this a little bit, protect the heart from androgens.



Take a look at this: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha.114.012066

The stronger the androgen, higher its effect on cardiac hypertrophy will be. Hence dht is the worst, because of highest binding affinity. Worst for the heart, yet useless for building muscle, what a great little thing to have lots of lol.

Also for example if you combine deca with finasteride the effects of cardiomegaly wre worse...as using finasteride with nandrolone makes it more androgenic.


With aas induc3d cardiomegaly the problem is not just that the heart gets larger...endurance athlete hearts get lsrger, but that is eccentric hypertrophy (to the outside) and is a result of exercise.

Aas are of course anabolic and they build tissue, therefore heart walls get larger, ie. Thicker. They dont flex as well anymore as they get thicker, and thereofre the percentage of blood that the left ventricle pumps on every stroke (ejection fraction) goes down. Also, due to the concentric (to the inside) hypertrophy from aas, the volume of the LV itself may get smaller. So its a compounding problem. Add to that high bp, narrowed arteries, thick blood...you can see why that stuff can end very, VERY bad.


Cardio of course will help keep some of the elasticity of the wall and may provide additional eccentric hypertophy which will counteract concentric hypertrophy happening as a result of drug use.

And no I am not trying to dispute what you are saying. I completely agree, it’s not a very talked about symptom of AAS. Most guys just worry about gyno and maybe their liver. But usually not cardiovascular side effects.

 

[saderboy80]

Alright guys thanks for all the great advice and both the positive and negative criticisms. I feel like I’ve learned some valuable information and this was a good thread.

So regardless of the cycle I run, it will be the most gear I’ve ever ran at once. What’s the consensus on the best all in one ancillary product?

Currently I take:
Multivitamin
Vit B
Vit C
Vit E
Fish oil
Resveratrol
CoQ 10
TUDCA
Cissus
Glucosamine and chondroitin
MSM
Collagen
Saw palmetto
Turmeric
Alpha lipoic acid
Milk thistle

I think that’s all lol

I have 5% nutrition liver and organ on hand as well but I’m open to other suggestions!

 

[Hyde]

Alright guys thanks for all the great advice and both the positive and negative criticisms. I feel like I’ve learned some valuable information and this was a good thread.

So regardless of the cycle I run, it will be the most gear I’ve ever ran at once. What’s the consensus on the best all in one ancillary product?

Currently I take:
Multivitamin
Vit B
Vit C
Vit E
Fish oil
Resveratrol
CoQ 10
TUDCA
Cissus
Glucosamine and chondroitin
MSM
Collagen
Saw palmetto
Turmeric
Alpha lipoic acid
Milk thistle

I think that’s all lol

I have 5% nutrition liver and organ on hand as well but I’m open to other suggestions!

I have never seen an all in one that actually covered all in one well. Leviathan Nutrition had one but even that can’t possibly do it all.

You should consider a K2 supplement. NOW makes a great D3/Mk7 (form of K2) supplement that is affordable and one baby capsule.

Citrus Bergamot daily and eating ground flaxseed, several tbsp, can be added if you find you need more help with lipids.

Astragalus is #1 for kidneys, and Pycnogenol/pine bark extract is a great antioxidant as well and increases ejection fraction rate for the heart.

Grape seed extract a couple times a day can help lower bp, and an arjuna bark-based product like Carditone can really make a difference as well if yours gets too high.

Nattokinase is a natural anti-thrombotic. Just one little cap a day is a vastly superior replacement to baby aspirin for stroke prevention.

 

[CroLifter]

I have never seen an all in one that actually covered all in one well. Leviathan Nutrition had one but even that can’t possibly do it all.

You should consider a K2 supplement. NOW makes a great D3/Mk7 (form of K2) supplement that is affordable and one baby capsule.

Citrus Bergamot daily and eating ground flaxseed, several tbsp, can be added if you find you need more help with lipids.

Astragalus is #1 for kidneys, and Pycnogenol/pine bark extract is a great antioxidant as well and increases ejection fraction rate for the heart.

Grape seed extract a couple times a day can help lower bp, and an arjuna bark-based product like Carditone can really make a difference as well if yours gets too high.

Nattokinase is a natural anti-thrombotic. Just one little cap a day is a vastly superior replacement to baby aspirin for stroke prevention.

I need to look into nattokinase then. I usually let my e2 run rampant during cycle to maximize growth and am a little worried about potential rebound after discontinuing the 75mg aspirin.

There is supposedly no rebound (increased platelet activity) after stopping nattokinase then?

edit: i remember you mentioned it once...supposedly a supplement which may help LVH...do you perhaps remember? I forgot lol...was it some kind of cinnamon or...

 

[Hyde]

I need to look into nattokinase then. I usually let my e2 run rampant during cycle to maximize growth and am a little worried about potential rebound after discontinuing the 75mg aspirin.

There is supposedly no rebound (increased platelet activity) after stopping nattokinase then?

edit: i remember you mentioned it once...supposedly a supplement which may help LVH...do you perhaps remember? I forgot lol...was it some kind of cinnamon or...

Reversing LVH hypertrophy is Curcumin, at something around 750-900mg daily for most.

Nattokinase didn’t have any rebound issues, and I believe it’s actually optimal to take 2 divided doses per day (200mg/4,000fu) if you are trying to get max benefit in that regard. But one cap outshines baby aspirin without the stomach bleeding risks. And taking 4-6,000fu daily for 4+ months was shown to raise HDL in one human study.

There’s a great meta-analysis on it if you just Google Nattokinase PubMed. The gist of the evaluation is that it’s very affordable, easy to use, and safe for longterm consumption for basically everyone (looking at Asian cultures that consume natto heavily in their diet).